We're Going To Have To Cut Down A Lot Of Big Trees To Upgrade The Electric Grid For EVs

[NickB79]

https://jalopnik.com/were-going-to-have-to-cut-down-a-lot-of-big-trees-to-up-1851007188

Over 120 million wood power poles stand in the United States, literally propping up our aerial wire power grid. Every single day some of these poles age out and need to be replaced, some are damaged by fires, car crashes, or natural forces — wind, woodpeckers, beavers, and rot, chiefly. As we continue to spend more on our aging infrastructure, we’re also leaning on it more than ever to power our lives. Increased electric car adoption, large-scale solar and wind farms, and a $1.2 billion infrastructure bill mean we’re going to need a whole lot more power poles in the near future.

Demand is rising for taller and larger-diameter power poles, which means companies like Koppers are seeking out and cutting down massive old-growth conifers to sate this demand. The old standard 40-foot Class 4 pole is falling out of favor, as power companies jump to install new 45-foot Class 2 poles for a thicker and stronger foundation to their lines. Koppers Vidalia, Georgia plant manager Brad Singleton told the Wall Street Journal, “They don’t know what’s coming next. They want room to add things.”

That is a problem I didn't see coming, to be honest.

[DoBW]

1. Sounds like Big Oil propaganda

I'll file it with Trump's "windmills kill whales" nonsense

[Think. Again.]

15. Yeah...

...the anti-anythingcleanenergy B.S. is getting a wee bit far-fetched.

[thucythucy]

2. We could try burying those lines.

One thing I've always noticed returning to the US from western Europe is how cluttered our streets are with power poles and lines. Not only is it unsightly--until you get used to it again--but it keeps us from planting trees along many of our roads, and yes, as mentioned in this article, it also leads to our cutting down so many old growth trees as well.

Whenever the idea is brought up people inevitably mention the cost. But then, what's the cost of power outages and repairs of downed poles after every major storm? What's the cost--financially--of the constant pruning that's needed of hundreds of thousands of trees every year? And of course, what's the cost to the environment of our slipshod infrastructure maintenance?

A major effort to bury what lines we can would be a huge boost to the environment, but I guess we'd rather spend that money on football stadiums and aircraft carriers.

[patphil]

11. I agree, there's a lot of places where lines can, and should be buried.

Not only would it be more aesthetically pleasing, but it would reduce the number of power outages caused by storms and vehicle accidents.

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. Transmission Professionals Group: Overhead vs. Underground Power: Why Do We Use Both Locations?

Overhead vs. Underground Power: Why Do We Use Both Locations?

EMILY NEWTON
Editor-In-Chief, Revolutionized Magazine
Emily Newton is the Editor-in-Chief at Revolutionized Magazine. She enjoys writing articles in the energy industry as well as other industrial sectors.

…

On average, overhead lines also typically last several decades longer than underground versions before needing to be replaced. However, the life span estimates of both may vary.

Fault-finding and repair for overhead lines are typically faster, resulting in shorter power disruptions and improved uptime. The same is not true for underground cables, which often require a more involved and less speedy fault-finding and repair process.

If the problem’s location is not immediately obvious, the repair crew must employ various fault-finding techniques to determine where the line has failed. Some strategies, like cable thumping, can add more strain and potentially damage insulation and shorten life span.

Overhead lines can also withstand overloads more readily than underground lines due to their thermal capacity. Cables that are buried rather than exposed to air will radiate heat less quickly, making them more susceptible to overheating during an overload.

…

[thucythucy]

33. One wonders then how the Europeans have managed so well

using underground cables.

I notice that the statistic on life expectancy for the two formats were generated by Southern California Edison. Does this apply then only to southern Caifornia, or across the country. The paper does say "life span estimates of both may vary," so this hardly seems conclusive.

And while the paper says line breaks are easier to fix on overhead cables, I don't see any comparison of the frequency of line breaks for overhead vs. uinderground. If an underground line break happens once in two decades, while overhead cables in the same area need to be repaired once a year, it would seem to bear on the costs of one versus the other. 

But I'll admit I'm not an expert on this. I just know that there seems to be a stark difference in how power cables are laid--or strung--in western Europe as opposed to the US.

[OKIsItJustMe]

34. Well, the article does not seem to say that suspending the cables is clearly preferable

Rather, the choice is not clear-cut. In some situations, one is preferable, in other situations the other may be.

Consider this street scene. Plenty of lights, but do you see any power lines?

[Tikki]

3. Going underground...

Tikki

[Jirel]

4. Oh, it's more than that.

I wanted to go solar at home. The companies were happy to provide panels and installation. The only problem was, they wanted us to install on a part of a roof where there are lots of old trees that provide shade to the house. So we gave solar a pass. In broiling Texas summers, which tend to last 6 mo this out of the year, what we’d lose in shade cooling could never be made up with more solar electricity to power the overworked AC unit.

Similarly, I’m giving EVs a hard pass. Where is all the power coming from to charge them? Fossil fuels. All we are doing, at present, is moving the fossil fuels out of the engine and into the power plants. Maybe, years from now, we’ll have enough true renewable generation to power a rising number of electric cars. But where I live, there isn’t enough reliable generation to keep even buildings livable in either that 6 months of oppressive heat or the cold snaps that everyone forgets about until they lose power and water. When we hit a critical mass of EVs, the grid will have to expand greatly (it already needs that!). What will we be using? More fossil fuel. Because I know how this state rolls.

[Fiendish Thingy]

8. My understanding is TX has one of the highest solar and wind KWh rates in the US

At least 30% of all TX power is renewable.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/06/28/texas-solar-power-grid-heat-wave/#:~:text=Natural%20gas%20has%20held%20steady,the%20state%20grid%27s%20electricity%20needs.


Maybe not on your grid?

[Blues Heron]

9. Doesn't have to come from fossil fuels

On average it will reflect the diversity of the grid you are charging from.

[Think. Again.]

16. You do realize...

...the electricity is coming from fossil fuels because we haven't switched away from fossil fuels yet, right?

[CentralMass]

17. Well if you look at the math EV's have a lower carbon footprint

Over their lifetimes and use less energy than their ICE powered equivilents.
The equivilent mpg that EV's are rated against is based on the amount of energy in one gallon of gasoline (33.7kWh).The amount electrical energy used by EV's is usually expressed as wH/mile or kWh/mile. One comparison would be a Tesla Model 3 that uses ~ 0.240kWh/mile. One ICE powered equivilent to it is considered to be the BMW Series 3 that gets 35mpg. The Tesla Model 3's mpg-e (miles oer gallon equivilent) is 33.7kWh ÷ 0.24kWh = ~130 mpg-e. Meaning the Tesla can travel about 4 times farther on the same amount of energy as it gas powered equivilent.

A look up of electric and gasoline prices in Texas shows 13.83 cents per kWh for electricity and $3.09/gallon for unleaded gas. To travel 35 mile in the Model 3 (at least if you charged at home) would be
- Amount of electricity to travel 35 miles is: 35 miles × 0.24kWh/mile = 8.4kWh. At 13.89 cents/kWh that would cost 8.4kWh × $0.1389/kWh = $1.17 vs the $3.09 it would cost for 5he gas powered equivilent.
Texas produces a relatively high amount of renewable electricity. As that percentage increase the EV will become even greener.

[Think. Again.]

23. Did you consider....

...that the solar panels also create shade on the roof?

[Maraya1969]

5. I posted this before about a search engine that plants trees depending on your sereaches

https://www.ecosia.org/

And I checked it out and it is really on the up and up.

Here is snopes review of it.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ecosia-use-profits-to-plant-trees/

And here is a Youtube video on it that is good to watch although he spends the first 1.5 minutes saying things like, "can we trust this company?" But then he explains how Ecosia works and it is quite brilliant. He does say that for every search they plant a tree and I don't think it is for every search. On mine there is a little tree in the upper right hand corner and it seems like my searches planted 9 trees so far.

I really think it is a great company.

[DoBW]

6. Sold!

Didn't take me long to get on the Ecosia wagon. I won't at first make it my default till I get the "lay of the land" so to speak, but will start using it for different searchs. Thanks for the lead.

[Fiendish Thingy]

7. Ever hear of underground power lines?

This is nonsense propaganda.

[NickB79]

12. Underground is much more expensive to install

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/08/why-burying-power-lines-sounds-better-than-it-real.aspx#:~:text=Since%20costs%20can%20be%20north,well%20as%20less%20cost%20invasive.

To bury a sizeable portion of the US line grid would cost TRILLIONS.

[Fiendish Thingy]

13. This article was about the periodic replacement of wood poles

Nobody is talking about replacing every pole, all at once.

In blue states at least, most new urban/suburban construction requires underground power lines.

[NickB79]

19. It's about replacing existing poles with larger poles

Last edited Sat Nov 11, 2023, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)

That's the jist of entire article: going from 40' poles to 45' poles, and of a larger diameter.

As the article points out, demand for them is already skyrocketing. This isn't a future problem anymore.

And all that requires bigger trees harvested.

[Think. Again.]

24. or other materials to be used.

[NickB79]

25. Sure. Steel could be subbed in

At extra cost, with the associated extra carbon emissions and environmental impact from mining and refining the iron ore. Millions of tons of extra ore.

On the flip side, it would last a lot longer and be recyclable.

[Think. Again.]

26. Or any other suitable material.

(You realize there are costs, carbon emissions, and environmental impacts from wood posts too, right? And did you say 'millions of tons' of ore to produce telephone poles?...)

[NickB79]

29. It takes 1.6 tons of ore to yield 1 ton of steel

The article states there are 120 million wooden power poles in the US per the article. If we replace 25% over the next 25 yr, that's 30 million poles, each weighing half a ton of more.

Yes, millions of tons of additional ore if constructed of steel. I don't see what's surprising about that.

[RainCaster]

35. My personal experience with power lines

My house is off in the woods, 800+ feet from the road and power/phone lines. We bought the land and started developing it 35 years ago. We were given the option of poles or underground, and we chose underground for all our lines.

We have had trees come down on our road 5 times since then. Each time we lost power. Never once have we lost power because of a problem with the underground wiring.

[sl8]

10. Interesting. Some more info:

Interesting article, thanks.

Paywall free version of the Wall Street Journal article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-electric-car-era-needs-a-lot-of-really-big-trees/ar-AA1jDXUC

The NA Wood Pole Council paper referenced:
https://woodpoles.org/portals/2/documents/TB_Sustainable_Design.pdf
Sustainable Wood Pole DesignFor Overhead Systems

Also, I just learned today there's such a thing as a North American Wood Pole Council
and Woodpoles.org Technical Library:
https://woodpoles.org/Resources/Technical-Library

[Think. Again.]

14. UH-OH!...

....I guess we'll just have to keep burning oil because... reasons.

[NickB79]

20. If that's all you got from the article

I don't know what else to tell you.

[Think. Again.]

22. It's a false concern....

...the number of power poles we will need in addition to the existing ones, whether they're made of wood or whatever other material is best, is certainly not a serious enough concern to publicly feed the resistance to EVs or any other energy transition efforts.

Yes, the transition is going to entail a lot of details, and, yes, they will all have to be addressed, but if we keep fretting about each detail that those who are trying to slow the transition keep bringing up, we will never get started in the first place.

[NickB79]

27. I for one am quite concerned about harvesting old growth timber

Taking out potentially millions of trees that will take over a century to regrow, if ever, seems like something "serious enough" to at least acknowledge and discuss how to minimize, instead of dismissing into the ether with a shoulder shrug.

We need a serious plan to not only transition from ICE to EV's, but transition to public transportation as to reduce the number of EV's required for the transition.

There are 280 million vehicles in the US. If our plan is to just replace them one for one with EV's, we're screwed.

[Think. Again.]

31. Yes, we WILL be screwed...

...if we keep allowing the effort to transition away from fossil fuels to be side-tracked by negative inferences (most likely planted by the fossil fuel industry's PR contractors).

The transition is going to be an extremely complex and long-term effort, made even more complex and slower by the market forces which will have to adapt.

The most important aspect at this point is building public awareness as to why we must make this happen and building public support to overcome all the difficulties we will face in making those efforts successful.

There are solutions to these challenges, and we will find them. But bickering over these challenges when we still haven't even started the process is only going to erode the determination we need to get this happening as quickly as possible.

[hunter]

18. Let's build a society where people are not forced to own or subsidize cars.

Electric cars are the answer to a stupid question.

I resent the fact that I must own a car to be considered a functional adult in our society.

This affects my choice of cars. I'm a pretty good mechanic so my favorite sort of car costs about a thousand dollars, requires another thousand dollars in parts to make it reliable, and generally looks like a big FUCK YOU! to our automobile culture.

I bought a new car once when I was young and full of myself but I'll never do that again. I don't want to support that filthy industry. If someone gave me a Tesla I'd give it away like a hot potato to someone who cared. Maybe Meals on Wheels or some similar organization.

If we had any sense we'd be rebuilding our cities, turning them into attractive affordable places where car ownership is unnecessary, giving people greater freedoms and more choices, not less.

[CoopersDad]

36. Hear, hear! (nt)

[NNadir]

21. Don't worry, be happy. Clear cut forests make great former wilderness for wind turbine industrial parks.

Also, if we cut down all the trees to connect lots and lots of rickety unreliable junk, we face less risk of the wildfires that were caused by PSGE's power lines they had to install to connect all the wind and solar junk in natural gas dependent California.

The world will run out cobalt soon enough though, so we may have to cut the trees just to make industrial parks for wind and solar.

[Voltaire2]

28. we need to do a massive upgrade of our

electric infrastructure in order to restrict fossil fuel usage to only essential processes that have not been converted. We could disappear evs and we’d still need the same massive upgrade.

That upgrade is a net good for civilization.

[bucolic_frolic]

32. Old poles wear out and are being maintained with wraps and underground injections

They put a metal wrap around several poles near me. About 6-8' tall with large clamps. Also they test for the structure of the pole by drilling into it. Then a crew comes with a truck and sticks a probe down into the ground under the pole and some kind of liquid mixture is injected under pressure, probably a quick set epoxy. I saw a crew doing this, or by the apparatus they had that is what I believe they were doing.