Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:29 AM Jun 2013

How about that other solar - you know, the not so sexy kind?

It's definitely not getting the attention it merits:



Technology Roadmap: Solar Heating and Cooling

Overview

The solar heating and cooling (SHC) roadmap outlines a pathway for solar energy to supply almost one sixth (16.5 EJ) of the world’s total energy use for both heating and cooling by 2050. This would save some 800 megatonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions per year; more than the total CO2 emissions in Germany in 2009.

While solar heating and cooling today makes a modest contribution to world energy demand, the roadmap envisages that if concerted action is taken by governments and industry, solar energy could annually produce more than 16% of total final energy use for low temperature heat and nearly 17% for cooling. Given that global energy demand for heat represents almost half of the world’s final energy use – more than the combined global demand for electricity and transport – solar heat can make a significant contribution in both tackling climate change and strengthening energy security.

Key Findings

Solar collectors for hot water and space heating could reach an installed capacity of nearly 3 500 GWth, satisfying annually around 8.9 EJ of energy demand for hot water and space heating in the building sector by 2050. Solar hot water and space heating accounts for 14% of space and water heating energy use by that time.

Solar collectors for low-temperature process heat in industry (< 120oC) could reach an installed capacity of 3 200 GWth, producing around 7.2 EJ solar heat per year by 2050. Solar process heat accounts for 20% of energy use for low temperature industrial heat by that time.

Solar heat for cooling could reach a contribution of 1.5 EJ per year from an installed capacity of more than 1 000 GWth for cooling, accounting for nearly 17% of energy use for cooling in 2050.

Swimming pool heating could reach an installed capacity of 200 GWth, producing annually around 400 PJ solar heat by 2050.

By achieving the above mentioned deployment levels, solar heating and cooling can avoid some 800 megatonnes (Mt) of CO2 emissions per year by 2050.

Achieving this roadmap’s vision requires a rapid expansion of solar hot water heating in the building sector, including in solar supported district heating, as well as in industrial applications. Dedicated policy support should overcome barriers related to information failures, split incentives and high up-front investments.

While a number of industrial and agricultural processes can use low-temperature flat-plate collectors, advanced flat-plate collectors and concentrating technology should be further developed to produce medium-temperature heat. Industrial process heat offers enormous potential in sectors that use low- and medium-temperature heat for processes such as washing, leaching (mining industry), drying of agricultural products, pre-heating of boiler feed water, pasteurisation and cooking.

The development of compact storage will allow heat to be transferred so that it can be used when the load is required, aiding the deployment of solar space heating in individual buildings. Dedicated research, development and demonstration (RD&D) resources could make compact storage commercially viable between 2020 and 2030.

Solar cooling could avoid the need for additional electricity transmission capacity caused by higher average peak loads from the rapidly increasing cooling demand in many parts of the world. With substantially higher RD&D resources, standardised, cost competitive and reliable solar cooling systems could enter the market between 2015 and 2020.

Used with permission © 2013 OECD/IEA


http://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/name,28277,en.html


3.5TW thermal of capacity by 2050. That's a lot of energy in my opinion.
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How about that other solar - you know, the not so sexy kind? (Original Post) kristopher Jun 2013 OP
Solar water heating is fantastic stuff. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #1
and we’ve had commercial products to do it for more than a century OKIsItJustMe Jun 2013 #3
Fantastic stuff? I don't know... kristopher Jun 2013 #5
Since the ratepayer is saving money AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #9
Boo! WovenGems Jun 2013 #2
thermal solar provides significantly more bang/buck. phantom power Jun 2013 #4
No go. It involves plumbing. PsychoBunny Jun 2013 #6
Electricity leaks OKIsItJustMe Jun 2013 #7
True but PsychoBunny Jun 2013 #8
Medium Voltage Throckmorton Jun 2013 #24
I'm with you. I love solar, but dumbcat Jun 2013 #10
Yep, thank goodness plumbing isn't part of my home! kristopher Jun 2013 #11
I am really happy for you. oldhippie Jun 2013 #12
Of course you are with the "anti-plumbing" sect kristopher Jun 2013 #14
[sigh] I don't know why I bother ..... oldhippie Jun 2013 #16
How freaking difficult is it to make up a bio like that on the anonymous internet? kristopher Jun 2013 #17
I didn't think you would ..... oldhippie Jun 2013 #18
There's no need for that ... Nihil Jun 2013 #19
Apples and oranges kristopher Jun 2013 #21
There were scam artists working then… OKIsItJustMe Jun 2013 #13
I'm thinking of building a few of these NickB79 Jun 2013 #15
Sexy or not, it works for me. Nihil Jun 2013 #20
You might be interested in this kristopher Jun 2013 #22
Thanks - good collection of stats there. (n/t) Nihil Jun 2013 #23

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
1. Solar water heating is fantastic stuff.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:14 AM
Jun 2013

The mass of the water can retain heat, you can supplement on-site as needed using any other energy source easily enough.
Hell, homeowners can practically roll their own safely enough. Very low investment, very high return.

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
4. thermal solar provides significantly more bang/buck.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jun 2013

I recall talking with the guys who did our heating system for the pool and they said when it comes to hot water for home use, it's more effective to just get a very well insulated tank. Or go tankless. The heat-pump heaters seem like the way to go in electric heating, although I've never used one.

 

PsychoBunny

(86 posts)
6. No go. It involves plumbing.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 03:50 PM
Jun 2013

I won't deal with plumbing. Electricity I can deal with. Plumbing? NOT!

Liquids leak.

 

PsychoBunny

(86 posts)
8. True but
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 03:58 PM
Jun 2013

I can deal with that. I am careful. I haven't gotten a shock since I was a toddler. But I have had way too many plumbing disasters.

In my world HIGH VOLTAGE is over 600 volts. I don't have to deal with that.

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
10. I'm with you. I love solar, but
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 04:24 PM
Jun 2013

only will deal with the PV kind. I also don't like dealing with plumbing. And all the experiences my neighbors had with the solar hot water craze that went through my neighborhood in the 80's left a bad taste in my mouth. There were scam artists working then, and many of my neighbors fell for the sales pitch but ended up with slipshod, leaky work and no company left around to honor the warranty. Most of them just shut off and abandoned their systems.

I'm sure things are better now, but I still have a personal bias against residential solar hot water.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. Yep, thank goodness plumbing isn't part of my home!
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 04:49 PM
Jun 2013

I mean, imagine if I actually had to worry about pipes running all over my house just to get water to where I need it.
The buckets and outhouse work so much better. And I don't mind a bit going the winter without a bath when the option is breaking through the ice in the creek out back.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
12. I am really happy for you.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 05:42 PM
Jun 2013

My house is new enough that it has that new-fangled plumbing stuff. It sucks. Leaks behind the sink, leak in the slab, septic tank sump pump failed (that was a smelly one), drain line for the pan under the heat pump unit in the attic failed and flooded a bathroom. Just a general PITA.

I have it. I use it. I don't have to like it. I certainly don't have to put any on my roof and make more penetrations. I have enough already.

Sorry, I'm with the others here.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
14. Of course you are with the "anti-plumbing" sect
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 06:00 PM
Jun 2013

You're the "solar lover" who has an unwavering compulsion to malign solar at every turn. An uninformed observer might be forgiven for concluding you are a plant by the utility, nuclear or fossil fuel industry.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
16. [sigh] I don't know why I bother .....
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 07:36 PM
Jun 2013

I do NOT malign solar. I am a solar advocate. I have been probably since before you were born.

Just for the record, and probably telling too much, but:

BSEE degree in 1970

In the early 70's I was designing and deploying PV powered remote unattended sensors and covert telemetry relay equipment on a certain trail in South East Asia.

In the mid 70's I helped design and deploy 83 remote unattended sensors and telemetry units on a weapons test range in California.

I helped my buddies at China Lake and White Sands Missile Range upgrade their solar powered remote sensors and relays.

In the late 70's I was one of the original investors and charter stockholders in Real Goods Trading Corporation in CA when the founder, John Schaeffer (another Old Hippie) took it public. RGTC was a pioneer in DIY residential solar in California.

http://realgoodssolar.com/

http://ecopreneuring.org.uk/index.php/case-studies/real-goods-trading-company

In the 80's I went renegade and went back to school for MBAs in International Management and Finance because I knew I would be getting deeper in the solar business one day.

I knew Richard and Karen Perez (founders and publishers of HomePower Magazine) back when HP was an 8 page newsletter and we were fellow ham radio operators trying to run our rigs from solar power. Through them I also met Joe Schwartz, who went on to become the editor of Solar Professional Magazine, and one very smart dude.

I had a PV system on my house in California, and have had one on my current house in Texas for 16 years, though it is smaller than I would wish due to shading issues, and I don't want to cut down the oak trees.

I spent a few years (2006-2009) working with a small German company developing direct methanol fuel cells for use by the US and German armies in special applications. The company went on to field them in the commercial market.

I am on a city and regional council to advocate sustainable communities, and in particular try to get our cities to utilize renewable energy and conservation.

I am currently an independent solar consultant working with a high tech company in Alabama to put a commercial scale PV system on their HQ building and look for opportunities for them to break into the commercial and small utility scale projects.

What I am NOT is a religious nut about renewable energy. It is good. It has it's place. A big place. It is getting better and better, and cheaper and cheaper. But it is not the be all and end all of energy solutions for the world. Fossil fuels still have a place, even though you don't like it. Nuclear power has a place, even though many don't like it. Renewables are not going to "save us" from fossil or nuclear for the near future. No matter how much people want to rant and rave. I'm a realist. Yes, it's time will come when it will probably be predominant. Preaching "all renewables all the time", "renewables will save us from Climate Disaster" and "The smart grid will solve all the problems with intermittency" just doesn't do it. Let's advocate renewables, but be real about it.

So, now you, and everyone else here, knows more about my background and my solar "creds" than they ever wanted to know. So how about you, Kris? Would you share your academic and professional work experience with solar power with us? How many systems have you designed and installed? Do you also have solar on "every rooftop" you've ever owned? Have you invested much of your personal wealth in solar energy startups and new ventures? I'd sincerely like to hear it.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
17. How freaking difficult is it to make up a bio like that on the anonymous internet?
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 09:39 PM
Jun 2013

Not difficult at all.

Here you are judged by the posts you make and the ideas/beliefs/values that are expressed in those posts.

You aren't a realist when you disregard the research of hundreds of the worlds top researchers. Knowing what that research says and how things are progressing on the ground has nothing to do with religion or fantasy - it is simple direct application of knowledge and the scientific method.

You are a fake who is dedicated to smearing solar. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
19. There's no need for that ...
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:32 AM
Jun 2013

> How freaking difficult is it to make up a bio like that on the anonymous internet?

> Not difficult at all.

> Here you are judged by the posts you make and the ideas/beliefs/values that are
> expressed in those posts.

> You are a fake who is dedicated to smearing XYZ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Remember that every point you just threw at an anonymous person on the internet
applies equally to you - another anonymous person on the internet.


kristopher

(29,798 posts)
21. Apples and oranges
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 04:47 PM
Jun 2013

I understand your point and it is valid in most cases. However, I've never attempted to legitimize my posts by claiming to be anything - I rely on the content of my posts to provide validity. For exactly the reasons you cite any references I've made to my own credentials have been limited to a very short paragraph and that paragraph has only been presented in response to repeated requests for information about me.

That is entirely different from making a claim that I am for something, and then spending all of my time maligning that thing with false and inaccurate information; and then, when being called on that well established pattern of behavior, trotting out a bio that supposedly lends credibility.

My response - that such a bio is worthless on an anonymous board - is a standard reply for me; precisely because of the sentiment in your last line. Any response to such a post that attempts to match credentials can, be our definition, not be credible.

FWIW, I actually think the outline presented was legit as far as it went (I suspect there is a lot more to it); but there is nothing in it to indicate that the individual is in any way an actual supporter of renewable energy. In fact quite to the contrary, since a set of values that embraces the status quo is pretty clearly articulated.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. There were scam artists working then…
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 05:54 PM
Jun 2013

Nothing unique to solar hot water heating.

http://www.bbb.org/blog/2012/06/dont-fall-for-a-solar-paneling-scam-this-summer/

[font face=Serif][font size=5]Don’t Fall for a Solar Paneling Scam this Summer[/font]

By Kelsey Owen – June 25, 2012

[font size=3]Do you feel like a Popsicle melting in this summer heat? If you’re looking to stick to a budget when trying to “coolify” your home and are considering turning to green solar energy as a solution, there are some things you should consider when making the switch.

Solar energy scams are no exception when it comes to the typical contracting scam. Fraudulent contractors prey on those who are unfamiliar with their product. Make sure you know how solar energy works and how the benefits will affect you before investing the $5,000 to $60,000 chunk of change on any solar energy products. You might even qualify for the state and federal rebates that offer a reduction in the initial costs.

Before hiring a solar paneling contractor, take the following into consideration:

Determine if solar energy is right for you. Due to the high costs associated with the initial investment of solar power, it is important to conduct a self energy audit to determine if solar energy is right for you. Usually, if your monthly bill is less than $100, consider other ways to save energy that cost less.

…[/font][/font]

NickB79

(19,253 posts)
15. I'm thinking of building a few of these
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 06:51 PM
Jun 2013

One at first for my henhouse to take the edge off of the winter:

http://lifehacker.com/5574597/build-your-own-soda-can-solar-heater

And later maybe building some really heavy-duty, high-quality ones for the south side of the garage:

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
20. Sexy or not, it works for me.
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:40 AM
Jun 2013

I've been running with solar hot water (evacuated pipe type) for several years now
and have been very happy with it.

Yes, the company that originally sold it to me was on the scam side of legit - the installation
was originally missing two useful components (!) and the company did a phoenix flit to get
out of any obligations after a short time (both the "get £X for each recommended customer"
enticement and the supplier warranty) - but even after that, I'm still happy with it ... I didn't
invest my money in SHW for the sake of a quick profit but for the sake of "doing the right thing".

My savings on water heating and my general satisfaction with it have more than justified
the decision so I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who has a suitable situation.


kristopher

(29,798 posts)
22. You might be interested in this
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 04:53 PM
Jun 2013

Solar Heat Worldwide: Markets and Contribution to the Energy Supply 2011. Edition 2013

http://www.iea-shc.org/solar-heat-worldwide

Major results

Total installed capacity in operation worldwide by the end of 2011

By the end of 2011, an installed capacity of 234.6 GWth corresponding to a total of 335.1 million square meters of collector area was in operation in the 56 countries recorded in this report. These 56 countries represent 4.3 billion people, which is 61% of the world’s population. The installed capacity in these countries represents more than 95% of the solar thermal market worldwide.

The vast majority of the total capacity in operation was installed in China (152.2 GWth) and Europe (39.3 GWth), which together accounted for 81.6% of the total installed. The remaining installed capacity was shared between the United States and Canada (16.7 GWth), Asia excluding China (9.6 GWth), Latin America (6.3 GWth), Australia and New Zealand (4.9 GWth), the MENA countries Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco and Tunisia (4.7 GWth) as well as between some Sub-Sahara African countries (0.9 GWth), namely Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe. The breakdown of the cumulated capacity in operation in 2011 by collector type is 27.9% glazed flat-plate collectors, 62.3% evacuated tube collectors, 9.2% unglazed water collectors and 0.7% glazed and unglazed air collectors.

The annual collector yield of all water-based solar thermal systems in operation by the end of 2011 in the 56 recorded countries was 195.5 TWh/a (or 704.0 PJ/a). This corresponds to an energy savings equivalent to 20.9 million tons of oil per year and 64.1 million tons of CO2 respectively.

Newly installed capacity worldwide in 2011

In the year 2011, a total capacity of 48.1 GWth, corresponding to 68.7million square meters of solar collectors, was installed worldwide. This means an increase in new collector installations of 14.3% compared to the year 2010.

The main markets were in China (40.32 GWth) and Europe (3.93 GWth), which together accounted for 92.1% of the overall new collector installations in 2011. The rest of the market was shared between Asia excluding China (0.94 GWth), Latin America represented by Brazil, Chile and Mexico (0.92 GWth), the United States and Canada (0.76 GWth), Australia (0.70 GWth), the MENA region represented by Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Tunisia (0.40 GWth) and the Sub-Sahara African countries Mozambique, South Africa and Zimbabwe (0.09 GWth). The breakdown of the newly installed capacity in 2011 by collector type is 14.7% glazed flat-plate collectors, 81.9% evacuated tube collectors, 3.2% unglazed water collectors and 0.2% glazed and unglazed air collectors.

2012

The estimated total capacity of solar thermal collectors in operation worldwide by the end of 2012 was 268.1 GWth, or
383.0 million square meters of collector area. This corresponds to an annual collector yield of 225.0 TWh, which is equivalent to savings of 24.0 million tons of oil and 73.7 million tons of CO2 respectively.

Based on data collected from the detailed country reports, the number of jobs in the fields of production, installation and maintenance of solar thermal systems is estimated to be 420,000 worldwide in 2012.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»How about that other sola...