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mahina

(17,668 posts)
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 06:37 AM Dec 2013

How do you folks handle emotionally, knowing where we are?


I'm just starting to transition from saving the planet mode of 35 years to understanding that it's too late.

What our children will deal with...my son wants to be a father one day, and he would be a great dad. Except for what's coming.

I am working to stay centered but am feeling fear and anger and sorrow for the coming loss on an unfathomable scale. Our Hawaiian birds, forests, reefs, fish, people...and the world. Mahalo for any insights that hou care to share. Aloha.
33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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How do you folks handle emotionally, knowing where we are? (Original Post) mahina Dec 2013 OP
What evidence do you have that it's too late? kristopher Dec 2013 #1
I'd guess the evidence lies in the very evident lack of will to change our course, truebluegreen Dec 2013 #7
Recently, there is this one example NickB79 Dec 2013 #9
I'd love to read about that. mahina Dec 2013 #2
Part of the problem is material like the first post linked below kristopher Dec 2013 #4
Thank you for your response mahina Dec 2013 #14
Great post! n/t cprise Dec 2013 #21
Too bad wind and solar don't replace oil 4dsc Dec 2013 #24
What you replace oil with kristopher Dec 2013 #25
And for plastics ... Autumn Colors Dec 2013 #30
Here is the chart from IRENA kristopher Dec 2013 #5
good info thanks nt flamingdem Dec 2013 #12
things are looking up Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #3
I think we ate going to make it d_r Dec 2013 #6
Start Local by adopting a Community Bill if Rights. PuraVidaDreamin Dec 2013 #8
Thanks! mahina Dec 2013 #15
Your son should become a father one day ginnyinWI Dec 2013 #10
I'll be the first mother in our family back to the beginning of time to hope he doesn't. mahina Dec 2013 #23
Teach your children well randr Dec 2013 #11
My ancestors, going all the way back to the beginning of life on earth... hunter Dec 2013 #13
I'm glad I am old. broiles Dec 2013 #16
+1 stuntcat Dec 2013 #19
^^^This extremism^^^ CFLDem Dec 2013 #22
I'm sorry stuntcat Dec 2013 #31
No worries mate CFLDem Dec 2013 #33
Here's a paragraph I just read on FB: GliderGuider Dec 2013 #17
Thank you GliderGuider. mahina Dec 2013 #18
You're most welcome! GliderGuider Dec 2013 #20
THANK you. elleng Dec 2013 #27
With great concern, elleng Dec 2013 #26
I split myself in two, essentially . . . hatrack Dec 2013 #28
This is very selfish, but... Autumn Colors Dec 2013 #29
I look at it as a challenge. To see if I can adapt. Kaleva Dec 2013 #32

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
1. What evidence do you have that it's too late?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 06:42 AM
Dec 2013

You may be in a state of despair, but the evidence we have shows that we can change our course.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
7. I'd guess the evidence lies in the very evident lack of will to change our course,
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:47 AM
Dec 2013

whether or not we still have time.

I agree with the poster. I struggle every day with my rage at the devastation to come, and am thankful that I don't have children.

NickB79

(19,253 posts)
9. Recently, there is this one example
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:16 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/03/un-2c-global-warming-climate-change

UN's 2C target will fail to avoid a climate disaster, scientists warn. Global warming limit agreed is too late and dangerous as a 1C rise in temperature will trigger catastrophic events, study says


We're already almost to 1C, maybe even higher if you consider the new data suggesting HADCRUT is underestimating global temps by 50% for the past 15 years: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/11/global-warming-since-1997-underestimated-by-half/

A new study by British and Canadian researchers shows that the global temperature rise of the past 15 years has been greatly underestimated. The reason is the data gaps in the weather station network, especially in the Arctic. If you fill these data gaps using satellite measurements, the warming trend is more than doubled in the widely used HadCRUT4 data, and the much-discussed “warming pause” has virtually disappeared.


Things like this are why I give you grief now and then over your postings of "by 2050" projections and projects. It's not a personal attack on you; I just don't think we have a snowball's chance in hell of holding global civilization together long enough to reach 2050 in one piece.

mahina

(17,668 posts)
2. I'd love to read about that.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 06:48 AM
Dec 2013

I'm not in despair exactly but I haven't seen action consistant with the problem. Change is glacial (forgive me).

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. Part of the problem is material like the first post linked below
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 07:59 AM
Dec 2013

This discussion might be very informative.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112758758

Some people do what that post shows for the reasons discussed, but the nuclear industry has a concerted PR campaign that does it to create a sense of desperation they hope will overcome the public's lack of acceptance of the technology. Adding to that is the fact that the entrenched energy infrastructure controls agencies like the Energy Information Agency and the International Energy Agency. And it is these agencies that the academic community has traditionally depended on for the most accurate forecast of energy needs and the performance of the options to satisfy those needs.

The problem is, for more than 20 years they've been sandbagging the competition. I began studying the transition away from carbon in grad school 11 years ago, and I noticed that the EIA was consistently forecasting a 2% annual growth in wind when for the previous 5 years the industry had been showing an actual average growth of about 50% per year. They are better now because there has been a huge amount of criticism, but they are still extremely conservative.

The problem was so bad that the UN sponsored a new energy agency that specializes in renewable sources - the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) ( https://www.irena.org/‎ ).

Their 2013 assessment included a look at the performance of prior forecasts. They found what experts in the field already knew - the models from the established energy community were producing conservative forecasts that were grossly inaccurate, while the modeling from groups like Greenpeace have been predicting actual performance pretty accurately.

You can download the report with this link, and the information I'm talking about is on page 15
http://www.unep.org/pdf/GSR2013.pdf


So, lthough it may not seem like it, we are making very good progress with renewable technologies. This stage is largely building a manufacturing base large enough to bring renewable energy costs down to where they are competitive with fossil fuels. We are there with several important technologies in a number of markets; onshore wind is one of the least expensive types of new generation, and solar PV is competitive in a rapidly expanding range of markets. With that reduction in price comes a corresponding growth in demand which drives growth in manufacturing which results in lowered costs that sets off another cycle of growth in demand - rinse and repeat.

Energy efficiency and renewables resources are more than adequate. And as you can see from the cost-deployment charts we are at a major turning point in what will be selected going forward.









Finally, regarding energy efficiency - it is far more important a topic than is generally appreciated. Here is the status of world final energy consumption by source.



Most discussions you've seen about how much energy we need look at "primary" energy consumption The numbers on the left of the chart below). This is the concept behind calls for energy efficiency (another set of technologies that are anathema to the coal and nuclear industry because it slashes their profits).

Understanding the energy wasted from thermal sources is very significant to appreciating what energy source is doing what.

Primary energy measures the total amount of energy that is embodied in a raw fuel source - no matter whether it is powering our lives (ie electricity or or propulsion for autos) or whether it is waste heat being transferred to our waterways from nuclear plants or heat that's causing NO2 emissions off the hot engine block of an internal combustion.

An alternative (and most say better) way of looking at the production and use of energy is to measure what is needed and consumed by the actual work being accomplished. For example, an average internal combustion engine (ICE) powered car ejects 85% of the energy content of the gasoline it consumes as heat and only uses 15% for motive power. When we look for alternatives to gasoline do we think biofuels, and duplicate the efficiencies of the gasoline powered ICE or do we focus on batteries and electric motors that have far better efficiencies - typically using 90% of the input energy for locomotion?

Writ large, what does that mean? Take a look at this flow chart and note that the "rejected energy" comprised 58.1 quads of the total 95.1 quads of primary energy used in the US last year. How much was actually used to do the work of the nation? Only 37 quads.



If we look more closely at the various sectors we can see where the major opportunities for energy efficiency improvements are to be found.


Also, energy is closely related to water use.
See http://www.nawindpower.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.11788#utm_medium=email&utm_source=LNH+07-19-2013&utm_campaign=NAW+News+Headlines




Hope that helps.

mahina

(17,668 posts)
14. Thank you for your response
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:02 PM - Edit history (1)

and the considerable amount of time it must have taken to post. It os certainly encouraging.

I have an idea that I think will help accelerate the transition. Neighborhood based education centers, briefly...I think they have the potential to move political will in the US, where our part of the problem lies.

If India and China can move faster, perhaps we can avoid the permafrost melt and resultant methane hydrate release, with its consequences.

Reading Lord Stern's books The Economics of Climate Change And The Global Deal I see the urgency, and hope to find a couple of co-sponsors for the climate cafes.

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
24. Too bad wind and solar don't replace oil
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:26 AM
Dec 2013

I guess you can fool some of the people some of the time krist but most people realize that wind and solar don't replace oil. We are an oil based society and as such we rely upon oil to run our society and economy.

And lets also mention that any wind or solar system you advocate are dependent upon oil to manufacture and install.

And did I mention that no matter what kind of system you install be it wind or solar you have to replace it every 20-30 years.

I don't worry about the future as I have taken measure to reduce my carbon output. Most people(99%) are sheep who are so clueless that it's not worth my time to talk to them about this subject.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
25. What you replace oil with
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:48 PM
Dec 2013

Efficiency: Of the 24.7 quadrillion btus of petroleum energy input into the transportation sector in 2012, 21.1 quadrillion were thrown away as heat. Shifting where ever possible to electric drive greatly reduces the inefficiencies and provides a system that can be powered by both wind and solar. Planning is proceeding on the assumption this will happen.

Personal transport - EVs and better public transportation

Heavy duty transport, agriculture - Biofuels and Hydrogen Fuel Cells

If you'd like to be civil we could discuss it more.

d_r

(6,907 posts)
6. I think we ate going to make it
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:43 AM
Dec 2013

I don't think we will have the lifestyles we have now. And I think there nay be some real pain along the way. But I think we will go on.

PuraVidaDreamin

(4,101 posts)
8. Start Local by adopting a Community Bill if Rights.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 09:43 AM
Dec 2013

Look into celdf.org

Community Environmental League Defense Fund. They came to our area and brought Democracy School to we locals fighting
Corporations such as NStar our local electricity monopoly who want to spray cancer causing herbicides over "their" powerlines that house underneath OuR soul source aquifer. We are also trying to shut down a local aging and continuously breaking down Nuke plant by invoking the "rights of Nature"

We are organizing now to start forming local community bill of rights because corporate personhoods have more power than we the people. The State gov trumps local gov. Federal gov trumps both. Local communities have no rights as laws are currently written. It is time to change that. And the flesh and blood persons are ripe for real, honest change, from the ground up!

ginnyinWI

(17,276 posts)
10. Your son should become a father one day
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:17 AM
Dec 2013

Because that's what people do--they reproduce. I mean, life should go on, despite risks.

mahina

(17,668 posts)
23. I'll be the first mother in our family back to the beginning of time to hope he doesn't.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 04:45 AM
Dec 2013

I haven't told him yet.

If I were younger, I wouldn't have a child now.

It's his decision, and it's a long way off, thankfully. Maybe we'll turn some kind of corner by then.
Remember, divestment from South Africa seemed impossible once, and we're celebrating Nelson Mandela's life.

randr

(12,412 posts)
11. Teach your children well
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:39 AM
Dec 2013

They will either rise up against the corporate monster or join the throngs rushing Walmart to save a buck. There is no other choice.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
13. My ancestors, going all the way back to the beginning of life on earth...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:34 PM
Dec 2013

... managed to stay out of trouble, at least until they reproduced.

Same with yours.

And the wonderful thing about modern humanity is that we don't even have to pass on our own genes to give the next generation of humans "who we are." We can teach any kid, even adopt kids, and part of who we are lives on after we are gone.

Myself, I can grow a garden without the use of pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, I can improvise tools and shelter, and I hope I always have the wits to walk away from darkness before it overcomes me.

When you think about it it's a matter of extreme good fortune that any of us are here to experience this world and all its wonders, good and bad.

stuntcat

(12,022 posts)
19. +1
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 09:45 PM
Dec 2013

Knowing what I do about the rest of this century I'm just glad my years are half over. I'd kill myself before giving my own baby the next 8 or 9 decades. I understand it's incredible to be a parent, to hold that little part of yourself. But I will give that up. It breaks my heart every day seeing what's happening and if my child, especially if I had a daughter, was half as sensitive as me they'd feel it too. My species is causing a mass-extinction. There are already tens of thousands of children dying of starvation each day.

I hope people will please stop pressuring their children to have more babies no matter what. The pressure I've gone through has really changed my opinion of humanity. I've decided that every reason for making babies, no matter how great they sound, comes back to a selfishness. I pity the babies I see now but they are being raised by much harder people than me. And from what I see of "culture" now, the entertainment we have to choose from, I know the violence & earth-rape & worsening tragedies/suffering & dying oceans & disappeared old forests & mass extinctions & all the things that break my heart will not upset the children being raised today.

 

CFLDem

(2,083 posts)
22. ^^^This extremism^^^
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:13 AM
Dec 2013

is one if the main reasons people are rejecting to follow climate change activism
(Other than Al Gore and the jet setting crowd's hypocrisy on the issue).

Not having kids because you don't want them- Ok 👌

Not having kids for sanctimonious reasons and then looking down on people who do have kids( the most basic of instincts) -Dick move 👎

IMO there's no difference between this brand of extremism and apocalyptic xtians.

If we want people to act we have to set achievable practical goals, which the climate change movement is really quite terrible at.

stuntcat

(12,022 posts)
31. I'm sorry
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:16 PM
Dec 2013

I was too honest. I would kill myself before giving the rest of this century to my child, especially to my daughter.
You don't know the hateful pressure and years of mental abuse I've gotten for doing the rightest thing I know, and I don't expect you to understand how strongly I feel about this. Maybe you'd side more with the people who wish me DEAD for not having a baby.

The "achievable practical goal" I most care to meet is not giving my baby the next few decades. It will suck. It is not a gift. I wasn't trying to sound alarmingly extreme, just telling the truth. The thread seemed to ask a personal question, that's why I was honest.

I'm very sorry CFLDem.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
17. Here's a paragraph I just read on FB:
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:36 PM
Dec 2013
"And I guess what I notice most about this slow collapse of the Empire is that it’s a lot like being old in wintertime. As things get worse, life and death will go on, just as they have in the best of times. We’ll face decisions we don’t like to make; we’ll panic, adapt, make our choices and move on – for better or worse – just as we do in the best of times. Eventually, however good the choices we make, death will catch up with each of us, just as it does in the best of times."

I've been convinced it was too late since about 2004, when I first began to understand the depth, breadth and interwoven nature of the multi-dimensional global crisis we have created. The despair this brought up in me was almost too much to bear.

Most people handle it emotionally be retreating into "good news" niches, devoting themselves to cleaning up one tiny corner of the oozing, festering mess of the world, and denying that there is a larger, insoluble predicament.

I handle it by surrendering all larger hope, finding meaning instead in the small, the immediate, and the deeply personal.

Here's an essay I wrote last year on the growth of crisis consciousness:
Climbing The Ladder of Awareness

elleng

(130,972 posts)
26. With great concern,
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 03:00 PM
Dec 2013

especially because my first grandson is about to be born, and another grandchild may be on the way.

hatrack

(59,587 posts)
28. I split myself in two, essentially . . .
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 03:18 PM
Dec 2013

Part of me is white-hot rage, knowing that a world that's more beautiful, more complicated and more wondrous than we even can understand is on the brink of winking out.

That world is rich with species just as "important", "valuable" or "significant" as us. Some are likely as intelligent as us, or more so. All of them have precisely the same right as species to fight for life, food and reproduction as we do - that's the birthright of evolution and Terran origins. Of course, we won't let them do so - it's inconvenient or marginally more expensive to not build, not drain, not drill, not cut than it is to do so. (I'm not including basic human needs here - food, shelter, fuel and so forth).

Feel free to spare me the tut-tutting. Yes, technology is advancing, yes more people are aware that we're in trouble. But the Big Trends are few in number, and unlikely to be "impressed" with falling per-watt solar panel prices or raised consciousnesses

The Big Trends are:

1. Atmospheric CO2 content (yes, still rising year after year)
2. Ocean acidification (seawater pH still falling year after year).
3. Methane hydrate release rates (relatively small for now, but increasing at exponential rates).
4. Arctic sea ice volume and area (back from '12's record lows, but trending ever-downward, with all that that implies for thermohaline & stored carbon cycles)
5. Global human population (yes, still rising year after year)
6. Global fish stocks (some commercial fisheries at best holding steady, many in rapid decline)
7. Governance systems hardening into cargo-cult economic doctrines and "directed" by the dead hands of fossilized institutional money and by politics increasingly driven by magical thinking, anger, ignorance and resentment. Oh, and let's not forget the possibilities of infinite information control, militarized policing and fading legal protections for citizens.

That's part one. Part two is a feeling of unique good fortune, at being able to watch the next few decades, which will be unprecedented in the human experience, with all the power of modern information systems at my fingertips.

The fact that it's the same sort of fascination that drew Pliny the Elder back to Pompeii to watch the eruption doesn't diminish the fascination.


 

Autumn Colors

(2,379 posts)
29. This is very selfish, but...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 03:46 PM
Dec 2013

you did ask how people handle this emotionally (personally).

I find myself being thankful for three things:

1) I never had (and never wanted) any children.
2) I grew up in the era I did.
3) I probably won't be alive when the shit really hits the fan.

Kaleva

(36,309 posts)
32. I look at it as a challenge. To see if I can adapt.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 07:14 PM
Dec 2013

Maybe I'll be able to. Maybe I won't. But I'll try really hard to survive. Most likely though I'll have died of old age or a run of the mill illness by the time things get really bad.

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