Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumLA Times : Electric cars may hold solution for power storage
In a Delaware pilot project, electricity is stored in and retrieved from the batteries of idle vehicles. Car owners would be paid.
By Evan Halper
December 29, 2013, 5:00 a.m.
NEWARK, Del. ...
The pilot project here at the University of Delaware has had enough success to set off a frenzy of activity in the auto and electricity industries, particularly in California, where Gov. Jerry Brown's transportation plan this year promoted "vehicle-to-grid" technology.
...."This is a fascinating option," said Robert Weisenmiller, chair of the California Energy Commission. "The technology works. You can do this. The question is what do we need to do to make it happen?"
....The idea is that utilities would pay vehicle owners to store electricity in the batteries of electric vehicles when the power grid has a surplus and drain electricity back out of them when demand rises.
The plan takes advantage of a key fact about cars: They spend most of their time parked. The technology makes idle vehicles a source of storage for utilities and cash for car owners.
The "Cash Back Car" is how the concept is described by Jon Wellinghoff, the recently retired chair of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. "It provides another incentive for people to buy electric cars," he said....
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-electric-cars-20131229,0,5640652.story#ixzz2pTKkOxoh
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Problem solved and no new infrastructure needed.
I am not sure about the practicality of this idea. I am not against it, per se, but it does not seem like it would provide much reserve. Then, there's the dude jumping into his Tesla to drive to work on a particularly hot morning and finding that the grid drained his batteries overnight. I guess he calls a taxicab then.
Who thinks this is a workable solution?
I must be missing something here.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)Reserve: Do a back of the envelope work up on 300,000,000 autos w/ 50kw/h of battery capacity.
Save your imagined obstacles until you learn more - they are already taken into consideration. Problems exist, but they aren't of the kind you'd go to when you first hear of the idea.
The literature on the subject is mostly technical, but if you google /Kempton V2G UDEL/ you'll find a considerable amount of information to browse through.
longship
(40,416 posts)But, I'll agree that, in principle, such a system would work in the future. I am sure that's what this is about. But it takes smart grid a step or two further, I would think. Not against that.
But why can't I get the image of the pissed off person who cannot drive to work in the morning because the grid took his charge out of his clean, non-polluting vehicle overnight?
I would think that there was a more centralized storage possible which didn't screw the small guy who only wants to get to work in the morning. Try this scenario on for size. On very high demand times, many people's cars get drained and nobody drives to work.
How does thing work in practice?
Sorry, kristopher, I must be missing something here. I confess ignorance.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)Your "pissed off person" vision is dealt with by system design. It doesn't do anything the vehicle owner doesn't want it to do. It is an incredibly perfect fit for everyone's needs - your negative imaginings notwithstanding. That why, as I said, literally everyone that understands the concept and design thinks it is a great idea. As I said, there are issues to be resolved, but they aren't what you think they are.
Why not read about it at Kempton's website?
longship
(40,416 posts)As always, thanks, kristopher.
Will look seriously at this.
God only knows, if alternative energy is going to work, the storage problem has to be solved.
Maybe this one might be one of many that can be exploited, an all of the above solution. On that basis, it might just work.
Regards.
CRH
(1,553 posts)but could fill a significant amount of the electricity needed when generation from renewables is at low ebb. Any energy policy that discounts this potential, is incomplete.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)The primary role at low penetration of EVs is more oriented towards grid stabilization than as a primary means of meeting load when renewables are "at low ebb". That may come someday, but the grid stabilization function is very high value and it is perfectly suited to the smaller battery capacities that will be the norm for a while.
The way you meet low ebb, as you put it, is to overbuild renewable capacity. As renewable penetration increases, it is balanced largely by the facilities on the existing grid - which is gradually phased out as more and more renewables shut that capacity down.
This means the real problem becomes what to do with the electricity produced by renewables when the excess capacity is delivering above demand. Even without a 2 way connection for exchanging electricity, EVs that are programmable to top off their charge at the command of the utility can accept the overproduction. It's similar to why you'd charge at night on the existing centralized system, when the coal plants are burning fuel just to be on standby for the next day's increased demand.
There is also a lot of attention now being paid to using EVs in micro-grids as part of "vehicle2building" systems that help commercial and industrial users manage their power flow more effectively and efficiently.
By the time we get to high levels of electrification of the personal transportation sector, it's hard to imagine all the different strategies that we'll consider to be BAU.
madokie
(51,076 posts)Who in the heck would want to use their automobile battery, one that potentially could cost thousands of dollars, to be used to make a few short term bucks from the grid operators for essentially wearing their expensive battery out. If I'm right and I think I am all batteries have a finite life, a lifetime that is measured in how deep and how often they're discharged/recharged. Not so much in days/years as much as in charge discharge cycles.
I could see the grid operators buying the used automobile batteries and using them in a system to help with the peaks and valleys. I think most EV's manufacturers consider when a battery is down to 80% or so of their capacity to be ready to be replaced. Those batteries still hold a lot of potential that could be used for this scheme.
I know if I live long enough to be able to purchase a new EV I won't be letting the energy companies use my battery as this suggest. Ain't gonna happen.
Next it'll be your laptop battery
Help me out with this train of thought you have going there Kris
kristopher
(29,798 posts)The batteries are designed with a 26 year life of daily deep discharges.
If you aren't convinced, no problem. They don't need a high rate of participation. However, I'm 100% sure that when it is an option, that pragmatic mind of yours is going to decide it's a deal you can't pass up.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I don't buy they'd be willing to pay enough to make much of a dent in ones lease payments, besides many people don't lease.
I just don't see how this will ever work out. sorry
kristopher
(29,798 posts)I know, because I just pointed that out to you.
If you don't want to accept it, that's fine. As I said, you're not going to be forced to participate when it is part of the grid you are on; but I'm certain you will.
madokie
(51,076 posts)Battery people or whoever. I just haven't seen that anywhere