Author compares pre-state Jewish terrorists with Hamas

[Little Tich]

Source: Times of Israel

Bruce Hoffman says the struggle for Israel’s independence forms a blueprint for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today

LONDON — At 11:45 a.m. on July 22, 1946, a stolen vehicle holding four Jewish fighters from the Irgun paramilitary organization pulled up to the basement entrance of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The men unloaded seven large milk containers, each containing 100 pounds of deadly explosives.

At 12:37 the bombs detonated, ripping the entire building apart and killing 91 people, the majority of them civilians, including 17 Jews.

In Westminster, British prime minister Clement Atlee described the attack as “an insane act of terrorism” and labeled its mastermind Menachem Begin, a Jewish terrorist. (Begin later went on to form the Likud political party, and served as the sixth prime minister of Israel from 1977 to 1983.)

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/author-compares-pre-state-jewish-terrorists-with-hamas/

[Ken Burch]

2. The Lehi-orchestrated assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte,

whose only crime was trying to work out an agreement both national communities could accept, a man whose work harmed no one, was also terrorism.

It was the equivalent of someone on the Israeli right today assassinating John Kerry for his work in trying to revive the peace process.

[Little Tich]

4. It's a little bit disconcerting that two terrorists later became Prime Ministers of Israel.

I think Israel has to acknowledge that their founding fathers were anything but heroes.

BTW, I’m going to watch a documentary on the subject called “The History of the Palestinians: Land without a People”, and if it’s any good I might put up a link.

[shira]

6. As disconcerting as Mandela becoming President of S.Africa?

Should S.Africa acknowledge their founding father was anything but a hero?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

13. So you admit that Israeli PMs were terrorists. Awesome!

I knew you had it in you, shira!

[shira]

7. That's an example of terrorism. n/t

[Jefferson23]

3. What successive generations learned about terrorism in the Middle East

snip*Somewhat oddly, Mr Hoffman stops his account in August 1947, shortly before Begin’s militants went back to bombing Arabs in their cinemas and cafés, and Lehi killed Count Folke Bernadotte, a Swedish diplomat who had saved Jews from Nazi death camps and who, at the time, was the UN’s envoy to Palestine.

Disappointingly, also, the book lacks a concluding chapter analysing the terrorists’ legacy. Mr Hoffman notes that Begin and Lehi’s leader, Yitzhak Yezernitzky (later Shamir), became Israeli prime ministers. And he makes passing reference to the Irgun’s operations chief, whose daughter, Tzipi Livni, became foreign minister. But he is circumspect on what practices as well as personnel survived the passage to statehood. (In 1946, Lehi assassins dressed up as tennis players to kill a British detective, Thomas Martin, a disguise later adopted to kill a Hamas operative in Dubai.)

On the Haganah’s broader influence, Mr Hoffman notes that al-Qaeda’s Afghan library had a copy of Begin’s “The Revolt”, but does not ask why so many Palestinian prisoners take Israeli university courses on how Jews established their state. Much of what they do, including building terror tunnels, bombing transport nodes, lobbing mortars at residential neighbourhoods and burying arms dumps in places of worship, has antecedents in Jewish militancy. Israel knows Palestinian methods and it has an array of anti-terror legislation which, had Britain responded similarly, might have aborted the future state.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21646709-what-successive-generations-learned-about-terrorism-middle-east-long-long-road

[shira]

5. The author's one example (King David Hotel) is one in which he admits...

....was a military target. How many times have I read here that when Hamas targets Israeli military, it's not terrorism?

He then states that terror happens when there is no other choice. The Palestinians were offered their own state many times from 1937 onward, which is something the Irish and Blacks of S.Africa never had when they resorted to terror.

[Little Tich]

8. I can't see any difference between Jewish and Palestinian terrorism.

I certainly don't see Irgun or Lehi as less terrorists than for example, Palestinian Islamic Jihad. All of these groups have targeted and killed civilians.

There is one important difference however: Israel chose to honor their terrorists and never prosecute them for their terrorist acts. Instead, Israel elected them to become their leaders.

[shira]

9. Right, you can't see it.

I'm pretty certain Israelis would prefer that PFLP, PLO, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad acted more like Lehi and Irgun, targeting military installations with warnings, and targeting some leaders rather than acting on an intent to kill all Jews wherever they may be, especially soft targets.

[Little Tich]

10. Wikipedia: List of Irgun attacks

Source: Wikipedia

(2nd paragraph, snip)
“Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II. All told, Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during this period. Following is a list of attacks resulting in death attributed to Irgun that took place during the 1930s. Irgun conducted at least 60 operations altogether during this period.”

(Cleanup for legibility)
List of Irgun attacks 1937-1948
Date Casualties
1937, March 2 Arabs killed on Bat Yam beach.
1937, November 14 10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday&quot
1938, April 12 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa.
1938, April 17 1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa
1938, May 17 1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road.
1938, May 24 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.
1938, June 23 2 Arabs were killed near Tel Aviv.
1938, June 26 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.
1938, June 27 1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.
1938, June (late) Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel Aviv.
1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5 1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.
1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. More than 60 people were wounded.
1938, July 8 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.
1938, July 16 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1938, July 25 43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1938, August 26 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.
1939, February 27 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.
1939, June 2 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.
1939, June 12 1 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing
1939, June 16 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, June 19 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, June 29 13 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.
1939, June 30 1 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1939, June 30 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.
1939, July 3 1 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, July 4 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, July 20 1 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.
1939, July 20 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel Aviv.
1939, July 20 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.
1939, August 27 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.
1944, September 27 Unknown number of casualties, around 150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations
1944, September 29 1 Senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem.
1945, November 1 5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed.
1945, December 27 3 British policemen and 4 Sotho soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv
1946, February 22 Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations.
1946, July 22 91 people were killed at King David Hotel bombing mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
41 Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.
1946, October 30 2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.
1946, October 31 Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.
1947, January 12 4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.
1947, March 1 17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.
1947, March 12 1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp.
1947, July 19 4 locations within Haifa are attacked, killing a British constable and injuring 12.
1947, July 29 2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged.
1947, September 26 4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery.
1947, September 29 13 killed, 53 wounded in attack on British police station.
1947, December 11 13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa
1947, December 12 20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13 6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema.
1947, December 13 5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13 7 killed, 10 seriously injured in attack on al-'Abbasiyya.
1947, December 16(ca) 10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa.
1947, December 29 14 Arabs killed by bomb in Jerusalem.
1947, December 30 6 Arabs killed and, 42 injured by grenades at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which lead to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre.
1948, January 1 2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa.
1948, January 5 14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's built Ottoman Town Hall
1948, January 7 20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate.
1948, February 10 7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv
1948, February 18 12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla
1948, March 1 20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing
1948, April 9-April 11 107-120 Arabs killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters.
1948, April 6 7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

[oberliner]

11. Wikipedia? Are you serious?

Are you aware of the actual sources used for this information? Have you checked any of them yourself?

More than half are alleged to be taken from a single source:

(Hebrew)Y. 'Amrami, A. Melitz, דברי הימים למלחמת השחרור ("History of the War of Independence", Shelach Press, 1951. (a sympathetic account of events, mostly related to Irgun and Lehi).

Do you know Hebrew? Have you read this source? Seen an English translation?

Is there any other source for this information besides that one?

Can you describe the circumstances around any of these alleged incidents?

Wikipedia likes to put out these lists with dodgy sources and then everyone repeats them and republishes them and no one actually does any research themselves. It's on Wikipedia so it must be true!

[Little Tich]

12. You're welcome to refute it.

I see no reason to believe the list is faulty. The Talk page for the article shows that your concern has already been discussed, and nevertheless, the list stands. If you find that there's something on the list that shouldn't be there, it's a sure bet that the editors of the article would want to know.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. Well, they'll just cluck their tongues, roll their eyes and expect you to believe

that they somehow have won the argument without offering anything of substance.