Palestine is a global, not a Western issue

[Israeli]

Topics : #Occupation

Ilan Pappe
Wednesday 9 September 2015

A few weeks ago, a very important conference took place in London organised by the NGO, Middle East Monitor, focusing on Latin America’s engagement with the cause of Palestine. The most striking feature of the conference was the ease with which several speakers, who came from the continent, spoke of Palestine, totally liberated from the inhibitions that obfuscate the discourse on the issue in the West.

The most notable inhibition absent from their straightforward support for the human and civil rights of the Palestinians was the fear of being accused of anti-Semitism. We heard in that meeting politicians and professors from South and Central America supporting these rights as an obvious position for anyone with a modicum of decency and humanity in them. They were not walking on eggshells, as their Western counterparts would do, when criticising the criminal policies of Israel on the ground.

This openness and transparent discourse indicate how urgent it is to expand the solidarity movement with the Palestinians beyond the boundaries of the West. The guilt-free basis for discussing Palestine can be found also in South Africa and South-East Asia. One cannot stifle and silence a debate there on Israel by intimidating allegations of anti-Semitism.

The need to expand the boundaries is important in two additional aspects. It can create an alternative to the failed and destructive notion of Pax Americana - an alternative that would suit not only Palestine but also the rest of the Arab world. Away from Washington, the discussion on peace will extend beyond the agenda imposed by this Pax Americana on the people who live in Israel and Palestine and those engaged with their future.

- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/palestine-global-not-western-issue-2011398530#sthash.wGEu5j2c.z72Lo5MG.dpuf

[Little Tich]

1. Ilan Pappe is one of the few people I trust, even though he's way more left than me.

I think that he's referring to the states of the Non-Aligned Movement and that he's managing to capture the attitudes of them towards Palestine pretty well. It's always good to see things from a different angle.

[shira]

4. Then that explains everything. No wonder you think Zionists....

....are into revisionist history.

Pappe is notorious for being a liar & propagandist. He even admits it:

There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir (Bruxelles),Nov. 29, 1999)

I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings...(Ibid)

Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. (Ibid)

The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like (Benny) Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself. (“Benny Morris’s Lies About My Book,” Ilan Pappé, Response to Morris’ critique of Pappé’s book, “A History of Palestine” published in the New Republic, March 22, 2004, History News Network, April 5, 2004)

(Historical) Narratives... when written by historians involved deeply in the subject matter they write about, such as in the case of Israeli historians who write about the Palestine conflict, is motivated also... by a deep involvement and a wish to make a point. This point is called ideology or politics. (Ibid)

Yes, I use Palestinian sources for the Intifada: they seem to me to be more reliable, I admit. (Ibid)

You have everything backwards, but at least now we know why.

[Little Tich]

5. You can either attack the OP or the author of the OP.

You have chosen to attack the author of the OP.

If the choice was correct, then please specify your attack in the post below:

[shira]

10. First, the author of the OP...

Seriously, Pappe is such a revisionist I don't waste any time reading his crap. But if we get tired of debating his credibility (or lack thereof) I'll debate the OP.

Have you read up on the alleged Tantura Massacre, Teddy Katz...?

That's as good a place as any to start, besides his own admission that he doesn't deal in facts.

[Little Tich]

18. It's probable that the Tantura massacre actually did happen.

Benny Morris reviewed the whole thing in 2004, and he seems to argue that a massacre probably took place but there's no proof - yet.

Source: The Jerusalem Report, February 2004

(p21, snip)

Teddy Katz may have written, and rewritten, a bad thesis; he may have recanted and then recanted his recantation. But does this prove that there wasn’t a massacre in Tantura? Not really. I listened to some of Katz’s taped interviews with Alexandroni veterans, interviewed some myself, and interviewed one of Katz’s more solid Arab witnesses — and came away with a deep sense of unease.

In the Tantura case, so far, no such evidence has surfaced. Millions of army documents from 1948 have not yet been screened and declassified, and perhaps an Israeli or Arab diary entry will yet surface. But so far, there is nothing.

(snip p21)

Or almost nothing. There is one 1948 document that gives off the rancid smell of atrocity. But it is not as explicit as a historian would like. An Alexandroni man, Tulik Makovsky, died in battle on June 1, 1948. But a week before, he was in Tantura and jotted down in his diary: “On the hill to the left were snipers who succeeded in hitting too many people. Two squads were sent to catch them. I was in one of them. After advancing according to the rule book, we succeeded in catching six snipers. We discovered their arms after firing to frighten them. What I learned here was that our boys know the craft of murder quite well... especially boys whose relatives the Arabs had murdered... or those harmed by Hitler [they are the same fascists]. They took their private revenge, and avenged our comrades who had died at their hands, against the snipers. I felt that in doing this they were unleashing all the anger and letting out all the bitterness that had accumulated.”

Israeli 1948 documentation declassified over the past decade indicates that Alexandroni’s commanders didn’t want Tantura to surrender, as this might have entailed its continued existence behind the Israeli lines (like Fureidis, further inland). The May 22, 1948 operational order for the conquest of the village, by the commander of the 33rd Battalion, made no mention of what should become of the inhabitants.

The initial post-battle report, apparently from May 23, by “Avraham,” the brigade intelligence officer, reported that the enemy had suffered “about 20 dead” and that 300 adult males and 200 women and children had been taken prisoner. A follow-up report, by A Company’s deputy commander, written on May 26, said nothing about the fate of civilians, though it mentioned the need to put an end to the looting by troops and civilians from nearby Jewish settlements. No one mentioned a massacre or atrocities.

But the conquest of Tantura did give rise to a series of enigmatic documents. None of the three versions of a report on the Tantura operation by Ya’akov Epstein — Yakub al-Mukhtar (Yakub the Headman), as the Tantura Arabs called him — who served as a liaison between Zikhron Ya’akov and the surrounding Arab villages, mentions a massacre. And nowhere does he say that his arrival on the morning of May 23 put an end to a massacre (as several of Katz’s Arab witnesses alleged). He does say that he found dead Arabs scattered about “the approaches [to the village], in the streets, in the alleyways, in the village houses and around it”; that Alexandroni commanders asked him to look over the adult males, who were sitting in two long rows, and identify any non-locals; that he organized the gathering and burial of the dead in mass graves. And that he was “fearful that this night there would be an unpleasant [event] in the village. In my heart I thought that there could be another Deir Yassin.” He advised commanders that it would be best that the remaining villagers, mostly women and children, be trucked to Fureidis. This expulsion, which he described, duly followed.

Read more: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-02-06morris-the-jerusalem-report-tantura.pdf

This is why Benny Morris is a historian, even if I don't agree with him, and all those who deny the massacre ever happened are simply wrong.

[shira]

20. At worst, from what you cited Morris writes that around 20 were killed...

...while 500 were taken prisoner. Revenge was taken out against snipers who had killed Israelis.

And that's what you just quoted. It's not even close to what Katz claimed.

Worse, Pappe defended Katz's thoroughly discredited revision that 250 were massacred. Katz wrote that many were lined up against walls, then shot & buried by other Arabs who were also shot & dropped into these mass graves (Nazi style). Katz's recordings of Palestinian witnesses (recordings were all Katz had, no documentation) revealed the complete opposite of what Katz was claiming; meaning the Palestinians never claimed a massacre or anything close to that had happened. Meanwhile, Yassir Arafat's government paid Katz's court fees....happy to defend this new propaganda that could be used for incitement to kill Jews.

Benny Morris also wrote this about Katz & Tantura...

Meanwhile the Alexandroni veterans hired a lawyer (a left-winger who had represented Peace Now in several cases) and sued Katz for libel. Going through Katz’s taped interviews and his thesis, the lawyer, Giora Erdinast, discovered a series of distortions, discrepancies, and outright inventions. When the court was presented with these findings, Katz broke down—some said he suffered a nervous breakdown or a minor stroke—and agreed to recant: “I did not mean to say that there had been a massacre in Tantura.... Today I say there was no massacre at Tantura.” This was in effect accepted by the court as its ruling, and Katz was ordered to publish his recantation. He never did (it was eventually published by the Alexandroni veterans). Instead he recanted his recantation and appealed to Israel’s Supreme Court. But the high court upheld the lower court’s decision.

Further in the same article by Morris, he writes about Pappe's false contributions to this affair...

...Pappe implicitly concedes the ineluctable weakness of oral testimony about something controversial that occurred decades earlier in the course of an ongoing conflict, and so he asserts at one point in Out of the Frame that “there is also a Palestinian document, the language of which is far from vague or ambivalent. It appears in the memoirs of a Haifa notable, Muhammad Nimr al-Khatib. A few days after the battle he recorded the testimony of a Palestinian who told of summary executions of dozens of Palestinians (in Tantura).”

The problem with this passage is that it contains a number of falsehoods. No document “appears” or is quoted in the al-Khatib memoir...

So not only has Pappe defended Katz's discredited thesis, he contributed even more lies to the affair. Which goes to show Pappe's twisted anti-Israel ideology is what motivates him, not facts.

There's no good reason to trust a pathological liar like Pappe.

[Little Tich]

25. Morris himself puts the number of possible victims at "dozens, if not hundreds".

If there had been a massacre, is it probable that this woman would have failed to mention that the Jews had slaughtered dozens, if not hundreds, of villagers, and that Arab radio stations would not have announced this? Of course, it is possible that the woman spoke of a massacre and the radio stations broadcast this — but the Israeli monitors excluded it from their report.

Source: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-02-06morris-the-jerusalem-report-tantura.pdf

For me, it's more important that people are actually denying that it's even possible that the massacre took place. If the massacre is a possibility, then it would make sense to dig up the already known mass graves to see what in them.

[shira]

30. Anything is possible but there's no evidence for a massacre.

You're missing the point.

Understand that Pappe lied when he made up shit about Tantura. He defended Teddy Katz's lies too. Katz claimed there were Nazi-style executions. This was based on video testimony of Palestinian witnesses who never claimed any such thing.

I don't understand how anyone could find Pappe trustworthy, or rely on him as a credible historian. He's a complete fraud. I understand why haters of the Jewish state & fascists would love and adore him for his propaganda, but other objective, decent, and sane people? It's simply not possible to call Pappe's work respectable. How am I wrong?

Pappe even admits that it's ideology that drives his work (the anti-Israel type) not facts. Do you still think Pappe deals in facts?

[Little Tich]

39. Interesting. I got the impression that it was plausible that the massacre happened,

at least after reading Morris's critical review. So if Israel digs up the mass graves that are already known and find hard evidence that the massacre took place, do you think it would let Pappé off the hook?

[shira]

40. A massacre is plausible due to what evidence? Gut feeling?

Pappe doesn't get off the hook even if he guesses correctly (not that there's a shred of evidence he did).

He's a pathological liar.

What's weird is that you probably still believe he's trustworthy.

[Little Tich]

44. Now I know how you feel when I'm too stubborn to understand that Mondoweiss is a hate-site.

[shira]

46. Does that mean I'm being stubborn about this?

I admit, this conversation kinda drives me crazy because Pappe's work looks so obviously absurd to me.

[Little Tich]

48. No, actually it's me. I was just projecting...

[aranthus]

54. No he doesn't.

He posits that IF there had been a massacre, and IF there had been hundreds killed, that Arab radio stations would have broadcast the news, that a woman witness would have mentioned it. His point is that since Arab radio did not broadcast news of a massacre, and since the woman did not mention hundreds of deaths, that it is not much evidence that it happened. He isn't stating that there actually were dozens or hundreds of people killed. His statements refute that.

[Little Tich]

56. Perhaps you should read the rest of the article at the link.

Which leaves a last, disturbing possibility: That the Alexandroni troops indeed committed a massacre or a series of atrocities, taht the Ministry heard about it - and that they thought the matter worthy of investigation. But given the hight-level sensitivity to atrocities, all preferred to use a euphemism habalah, instead of the explicit tevah(massacre). But for lack of further evidence, this must remain speculation.

Source: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-02-06morris-the-jerusalem-report-tantura.pdf

My quote in the previous post was meant to show an estimate of the possible massacre, and I can see that taken out of context it seems to dismiss the whole notion that a massacre could have happened.

Fortunately, the Tantura massacre isn't forgotten, and it might gladden you to know that Ilan Pappe and Teddy Katz are still trying to discover the truth. Personally, I don't understand why Israel won't just allow the massgraves where the supposed victims of the massacre were buried to be investigated - It's well known where they are, and if there was no massacre, there's nothing to hide.


The Tantura massacre of 1948 and the academic character assassination of Teddy Katz
Source: Mondoweiss, March 3, 2016

The Tantura massacre in May 1948, committed by Haganah forces just days after the declaration of the State of Israel, is not only one of the worst massacres of 1948, but its cover-up is also, in itself, a story, showing us just how effective silence can be in obscuring crimes against humanity.

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/the-tantura-massacre-of-1948-and-the-academic-character-assassination-of-teddy-katz/

[aranthus]

57. You are proving my point.

You have a unique ability to miss blatant antisemitism while at the same time condemning Israel on the flimsiest of evidence. You're grasping at straws here.

[Little Tich]

58. Even Benny Morris has to admit that something happened that day:

But atrocities - war crimes, in modern parlance - appear to have occurred. Many of the Tantura dead, even if they only numbered 70-75 as Alexandroni veterans would have it, were unarmed civilians or disarmed militiamen. A number of Alexandroni veterans said as much in undisputed interviews. We have Makovsky's diary and Micha Vitkon's statements, both to Katz and to Gilat, that there was execution of prisoners by B Company's commander, Karni, and that there had been "killing".

Source: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-02-06morris-the-jerusalem-report-tantura.pdf

I'm not making this up, and I don't think that the accusations are flimsy. If this was like one of those crime series on TV that I never watch, taking a closer look at those mass graves would be the next logical thing to do.

[aranthus]

59. Now you're moving the goalposts.

Of course Morris thinks that there were war crimes. But your original statement was that he supported the claim that up to hundreds of people were massacred. He doesn't. The evidence doesn't support that terrible claim. so why are you still supporting it? Again, you're making my point.

[Little Tich]

60. The article written by Morris state several possibilities.

There's evidence that a massacre of hundreds may have happened, and there's evidence indicating that it never happened. It's simply not possible to draw a definite conclusion with the current evidence.

I think it ought to be in everyone's interest to take a look at what's in those mass graves. As it is now, Israel stands accused of trying to hide a massacre.

This won't go away...

[aranthus]

61. Still changing the subject.

Morris considers the possibility that there might have been a massacre, but that doesn't mean that he concluded that there was one where hundreds of people were killed. You are simply misrepresenting what he says.

[Little Tich]

62. We obviously interpret Morris's article differently.

Do you think the alleged Tantura massacre should be investigated, or is it enough to just assume it never happened?

[aranthus]

63. It's more than that.

To answer your question. I think Tantura should be investigated. I think it's more likely than not that the snipers were murdered after they surrendered, and that alone requires investigation, even if there wasn't a massacre. There's actual evidence of that in first hand statements. The difference between Morris and I, on the one hand, and you, on the other hand, is this. Morris and I think there are grounds for suspicion and further investigation, but we won't tar the Israelis with a massacre without real evidence. You seem to assume that a massacre actually occurred, even though the current evidence for it is pretty flimsy.

[Little Tich]

64. Fair enough. n/t

[shira]

15. Okay, now it's time to attack the OP...

Check out this thread from 3 weeks ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134110956#op

The conference Pappe is writing about was one that was set-up by pro-Hamas MiddleEastMonitor (MEMO), which is run by Ibrahim Hewitt; a known hater of Jews and Gays whose articles reek of last century's gutter trash about the Protocols of the Jewish Elders of Zion. The 3 Latin American countries which sent diplomats to this farce represent 3 brutal & oppressive leftwing dictatorships.

See the problem yet? You should.

Pappe says we need to see diplomats from Western nations emulating these 3 fascist tyrannies which openly incite Jew hatred in order to slam the Jewish state (with bullshit accusations of genocide, colonialism, & apartheid). It's difficult to take Pappe seriously, don't you think? Pappe takes these tyrants masquerading as humanitarians seriously. What a joke.

Like I wrote to you earlier, the only organizations out there which scream apartheid, genocide, and colonialism are ones supported by or at least very sympathetic to fascist tyrants (I'm sure they all love Jeremy Corbyn's electoral victory BTW). There's a reason Norm Finkelstein calls BDS a cult & why no credible liberal and genuinely progressive, anti-fascist organizations take this lot seriously.

[Little Tich]

21. I did take a look at MEMO, and I didn't find anything I didn't like on their site.

And I didn't find any articles by Ibrahim Hewitt that "reek of last century's gutter trash about the Protocols of the Jewish Elders of Zion" either.

As far as I'm concerned, MEMO is legit, it just might not be that I actually agree with them.

You do have a point that the latin-american countries that participated can't be considered moral paragons, but that's a completely different issue that isn't as clear-cut as you might think.

[shira]

22. About MEMO and Hewitt...

Middle East Monitor is seen as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist organization founded in Egypt and allied to Hamas.

The publication’s senior editor is Ibrahim Hewitt, who has claimed that adulterers should be stoned to death and gay men receive 100 lashes.

Hewitt runs a private Muslim school in Leicester which was investigated for extremism. He is also a trustee of the charity Interpal, which is accused by the US of sponsoring terrorism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3194400/Corbyn-Hamas-backer-defends-suicide-bombs-ll-share-stage-extremist-Holocaust-cartoon-contest-runner-up.html

[font color = "red"]Let's recall once again that Hamas is a religious fundamentalist fascist supremacist movement dedicated to Israel's destruction & the killing of Jews worldwide. No one sane should be supporting, defending, or justifying their actions.

Ever.

Big red flag when anyone does that, like Hewitt's MEMO or Mondoweiss or Illan Pappe.
[/font]
Interpal's representatives supported Hamas in last year's war.
http://standforpeace.org.uk/interpal/

Interpal’s leaders regularly attend Hamas rallies and ceremonies in the Gaza strip. At one such event, Interpal trustee Essam Yusuf participated in a song that praised Hamas’s terrorist activities and its “martyrs.”

Other Interpal officials promote extremist ideas. Interpal staff member Ibrahim Dar has expressed support for the late Al Qaeda leader Anwar Al-Awlaki, has called for killing homosexuals, and claims that ISIS is a “western setup undercover organisation.” Interpal trustee Ibrahim Hewitt has spoken of a “so-called Holocaust,” advocates killing apostates, and has written: “The Jews cannot be entrusted with the sanctity and security of this Holy Land.”

http://standforpeace.org.uk/jeremy-corbyn-furious-over-hamas-questions/

[Little Tich]

26. The British High Court has found that it's libelous to link Interpal and Hamas.

The Wikipedia page on Interpal reads as a long list of failed attempts to smear Interpal and link them to terrorism, as well as some successful attempts by the US to hinder Interpal's activities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpal

[shira]

32. That literally means nothing. Everyone knows all money & supplies going into Gaza....

...gets into Hamas' hands first. There is no moderate, liberal entity that Hamas would ever trust or allow to give ALL money & supplies to proper, well-respected organizations. Hamas runs Gaza in every conceivable way, like a mafia. Stuff goes to Hamas first and Hamas decides how much of that gets to the people.

Everyone knows UN schools & camps funded by the world are run by Hamas, according to what Hamas wants, with people hired by Hamas to indoctrinate & brainwash the next generation of children. Who pays salaries to the people in the schools? Hamas.

That's direct funding of Hamas, but no one wants to admit it.

Don't believe me? Fine. Do you know how much money & supplies have gone into Gaza to build homes since the 2014 war? How much has gone to that cause? Nothing. It's all going into Hamas' pockets & into terror tunnels.

[shira]

23. More on MEMO's Hewitt...

MEMO’s “senior editor”, Ibrahim Hewitt, an extremist who believes that adulterers should be stoned to death, is chairman of Interpal, the Hamas-linked charity. MEMO has organised several meetings featuring Hamas leaders and terrorist sympathisers; its website also repeatedly peddles conspiracy theories about Jews in articles such as “How money from Israeli donors controls Westminster.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11749043/Andrew-Gilligan-Jeremy-Corbyn-friend-to-Hamas-Iran-and-extremists.html

On Israel: “By their behaviour in vandalising and destroying Mosques and Churches, the Jews have demonstrated that they cannot be entrusted with the sanctity and security of this Holy Land.”

On Zionism: it is nothing less than “a threat to world peace”.

On Jews and the media: “Much has been said about Zionist control of the media and conspiracy theories abound on this subject. Can there be smoke without fire though?”

On the US government: “Zionism’s puppets”. By the way, according to Hewitt (see this video from 7:30 in), the US also killed a hajj-illuminated Malcolm X in order to “divide and rule”, just like the British government.

On French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy: Hewitt cites Garaudy approvingly here.

http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/03/interpals-ibrahim-hewitt/

[font color = "red"]Protocols of the Elders of Zion, support for Hamas, Holocaust denial.... The list goes on.

This is unfortunately what Illan Pappe is all about. It's why I don't waste time on his propaganda. I don't trust a word of it.

I'd say it's a moral imperative for all decent people to condemn the likes of Pappe & his ilk. [/font]

[Little Tich]

27. The article from the Telegraph seems a bit dodgy.

The paragraph you provided contains a reference to a MEMO article "How money from Israeli donors controls Westminster" as an example of conspiracy theories about Jews. I checked the MEMO article and it wasn't a conspiracy theory about Jews at all. This led me to look a little closer at the article, and it doesn't "feel" right, it reads more like a personal crusade against Corbyn than anything else.

I found out that the author of the article is Andrew Gilligan, and that there's been some criticism raised against him. I must admit that I don't really know much about the reporting on Islamism in the UK, but there seems to be some amount of criticism levelled against him for how he does it. I found an (old, from 2010) article from the New Statesman about Andrew Gilligan about his reporting about Islamism while at the same time being one of Press TV's (Iranian propaganda outlet) highest paid employees. There are newer articles about him, but they're from websites I know nothing about, so I prefer the New Statesman article, as I 've read that magazine before, and it seems reliable.

Link to the MEMO article: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/14752-how-money-from-pro-israel-donors-controls-westminster

Link to the New Statesman article:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2010/11/andrew-gilligan-islamism-press

I must admit that I dont share MEMO's belief in some kind of liberation theology for Palestine, but I don't think that they're bad guys.

[oberliner]

28. Jeremy Corbyn ‘very good friends’ with preacher who compared gays to paedophiles

Labour leadership frontrunner Jeremy Corbyn described an Islamic preacher who compares homosexuality to incest and paedophilia as a “very good friend”.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/08/27/jeremy-corbyn-very-good-friends-with-preacher-who-compared-gays-to-paedophiles/

Meanwhile, Hewitt’s book says of gay people: “If people have such desires, they should keep them to themselves, and control their desires to avoid forbidden practices.

“The advice would be the same as, say, to someone who had sexual desires for minors or for close family: that having the desires does not legitimise realising them.”

Sounds like a "bad guy" to me.

[Little Tich]

35. I don't know if you know this, but the Chief Rabbis of Israel seem to be racist and a little bit

bigoted.

Does that mean that the whole Rabbinate is the bad guy too? And if Netanyahu would mention the chief Rabbis in a respectful or positive manner, would he be a bad guy as well?

I think it's problematic when people affiliated with religion get high posts, because their views are often based on medieval belief systems, but it doesn't mean that they're all bad. Tolerance for gays is low in most forms of organized religion, and while I must say that Muslim clergy is pretty uniformly intolerant towards gay people, this intolerance can be found in most religions.

[shira]

31. If we can't agree that supporting, defending, or justifying Hamas' terror...

...aimed at Jews is wrong then this is a waste of time. If we can't agree that targeting masses of people deliberately (Jewish apes & pigs according to Hamas) is a war crime (like rockets) then this is a hopeless conversation.

MEMO is without question pro-Hamas media. Hamas is a fascist movement committed to murdering Jews, my family included. That's what they say in their founding Charter and it's what they say all the time in the Gaza media & government institutions. And last, it's what they act upon....constantly, when they're not busy preparing to murder Jews during ceasefires.

This is so basic & elementary, it should go without saying.

I think there's a reluctance to acknowledge just how bad it is to support, defend, or justify Hamas' actions because that means the unhinged anti-Israel contingent screaming RoR, apartheid, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, genocide, pinkwashing, etc... is for all intents and purposes pro-Hamas & neo-fascist. Acknowledging this is to delegitimize & make irrelevant not only Illan Pappe and MEMO, but also Mondoweiss, BDS, the ISM, the Palestine Solidarity Committee, etc. After all, they're apologists for fascists wanting to massacre & do a genocide on Jews.

Does it get worse than that? How credible would a skin-head white power organization be for wanting to murder all Black people? No one would take even one word of theirs seriously...or the words of their neo-fascist supporters & apologists. But it's different in this case with the Jews....why?

Can we agree that being apologetic for Hamas' actions is very, very, very bad?

[Little Tich]

33. Supporting Hamas shooting rockets into Israel is just as bad as supporting the IDF bombing Gaza.

You can't prove that MEMO supports the former, while I could show you a few pro-Israel organizations that support the latter.

[Little Tich]

38. I can forgive Bernie Sanders for what he said, because he seems to be giving equal consideration for

civilians from both sides. The other two seem to have few qualms about bombing civilian areas of the enemy.

[shira]

41. Hamas tries to murder civilians & get its own people killed.

Their goal is to kill all Jews. For some reason, that doesn't seem all that bad to some. I can't really figure out why but I wish I knew.

Meanwhile, the IDF does not try to kill civilians.

What's weird is you equate Hamas' intent of killing all Jews to Israeli self-defense. Both being equally bad. I find that fascinating. Not that I get it, mind you. I think it's warped moral relativism, the inability to distinguish between right & wrong.

Tell me, do you believe Israel has any right to defend their civilians militarily from Hamas? Because if so, what is Israel genuinely allowed to do in response to 100's or 1000's of rockets pounding their cities?

[Little Tich]

43. It's not about attacking or defending, nor is it about being justified or not.

It's about killing civilians, and I can't even remotely see how someone can be forced to kill civilians thus making the killing justified. This goes for both sides in this conflicts.

[shira]

45. Hamas shoots 1000's of rockets @ Israel. How should Israel respond?

Last edited Wed Sep 16, 2015, 08:28 AM - Edit history (1)

It seems as if you don't believe Israel has any right to defend its civilians, because anything Israel does in response (with Hamas deliberately using Gazans as human shields) will lead to some loss of civilian life.

I'm not sure any other military would do a better job than Israel being careful not to hit civilians.

So what should Israel do?

[xmas74]

9. Alert results

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a personal attack.

Instead if attacking the messenger can some just debate the OP??!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Sep 14, 2015, 09:58 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Get over yourself.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That's one of the mildest things I've read on DU in some time. If you're going to debate Israel/Palestine you need a thick skin. If you can't handle it, go to The Lounge.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: discuss, don't hide
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[shira]

11. One of MANY failed attempts to stifle debate. Thanks for the heads-up! n/t

[oberliner]

12. I wish alerts were not anonymous

I think it would be better if the alerter was public in all cases.

[shira]

14. That might cut down on the alert-stalking. n/t

[leftynyc]

42. Same here

I suspect many of the alerts are from the same 1 or 2 people. Perhaps if people lost their posting rights after alerting 3 or so times and juries let posts stand..something like that would help as would forcing the alerters to be public.

[shira]

47. I vote 4 you to suggest this in the Ask the Admin forum. n/t

[leftynyc]

49. Done

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598679

[shira]

50. How about asking to make the poster's name public...

...to cut down on the alert trolling that results in posts that are voted on to remain? What can be done for those who have it in for others & constantly alert on them?

[xmas74]

13. I had quit participating in juries

but after some of the crap on here lately with the alert stalking-I'll take each and every one. DU has really changed over the decade I've been here!

(BTW-I'll admit it. I'm the one who said the alerter needed a thicker skin to post about Israeli/Palestinian affairs.)

[oberliner]

6. That does explain a lot

To quote Benny Morris:

At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/books/magazine/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian

Have you read the above piece? If not, I'd encourage you to check it out.

[Little Tich]

7. I really hope you read the article you posted.

I'm well aware of the feud between Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe. It's actually the paucity of substance in the arguments of Benny Morris that makes me appreciate Ilan Pappe more. When it comes to historians of early Israel, Ilan Pappe is one of the better ones.

[oberliner]

8. It's not a feud

One of them is an actual historian and the other is a fraud/hack/polemicist.

[Little Tich]

16. I've read both, so I can compare them, and I think Benny Morris is the one who seems keen on fudging

the evidence to suit his pro-Zionist views.

Both are actual historians, however, so reading either of them does give an understanding of what actually happened, it's just that I prefer Pappé. Apparently there is another new historian Avi Shlaim which I don't know much about, but it seems as if he doesn't share share Morris's disdain for Pappé.

I think your assessment of Pappé is too harsh.

[Israeli]

17. I prefer Tom Segev ....

.....have you read anything of his ??

I highly recommend " ELVIS IN JERUSALEM " :

ref : http://us.macmillan.com/elvisinjerusalem/tomsegev

Segev doesn't share Morris's disdain for Pappé either .

ref : http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-07-10/tom-segev-benny-morriss-1948-hebrew/

Morris went weirdly Right wing ....to the disdain of any self respecting Leftist .

[Little Tich]

19. I'm looking at his book "One Palestine, complete - Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate"

right now.

Many pages, but I think I'll borrow it.

[oberliner]

24. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this

It does, however, give a good window into where a person is coming from to know which writers he or she respects and admires.

[FBaggins]

2. Why would being from Latin America...

... shield an anti-semite from charges of anti-semitism?

[grossproffit]

29. Where will the OP be moving to?

[Fozzledick]

52. So a conference of anti-Semites aren't ashamed of being anti-Semitic

and you think that's something to be admired? I see, that explains quite a bit.

[grossproffit]

55. Indeed, it does.