Kerry: Temple Mount to receive round the clock surveillance, Jews will not pray there

[Israeli]

Kerry: Israel agrees to round the clock surveillance at Temple Mount, committed to status quo

US secretary of state: Netanyahu has agreed to 24-7 video surveillance in Jerusalem's al-Aqsa compound, Israeli officials and Waqf authorities soon to meet to discuss meeting tensions.

Itamar Eichner and Elior Levy
Published: 10.24.15, 16:42 / Israel News

US Secretary of State John Kerry said on Saturday that Israel and Jordan have agreed on steps aimed at reducing tensions at a holy site in Jerusalem that have fanned Israeli-Palestinian violence. Kerry said Netanyahu had expressed a commitment to continue enforcing the status quo, which says only Muslims may pray at the compound, while non-Muslims may only visit.

"All the violence and the incitement to violence must stop. Leaders must lead," Kerry told reporters

Jordan is custodian of the site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary.

Kerry said the steps include round-the-clock video monitoring and Israel's reaffirming of Jordan's special and historic role as custodian.

An Israeli government source told Ynet that Israel has an interest in installing cameras in the Temple Mount in order to disprove claims that Israel is changing the status quo. In addition, said the source, Israel wants to show that provocations are not started by the Israeli side.

Kerry added that Israeli and Jordanian authorities will meet about bolstering security.

Outlining the series of understandings, Kerry said:

continued @ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4715519,00.html

Bravo Kerry

[Mosby]

1. religious intolerance wins the day, horray!

[geek tragedy]

4. No, hardline Israeli and Palestinian fanatics and

Very glad to see outrage from religious extremists on this.

Israel made a solemn promise to maintain the status quo, and expressed a great deal of outrage when people suggested the Israelis wanted to change the status quo.

Now Israel is being held to its word.

[oberliner]

13. Just let everybody pray there

As long as they don't disturb one another and each keep to their own area.

It is ridiculous that anyone finds that to be so horrifying.

Time to break the status quo in this respect and many others.

Change the marriage laws too - let anyone marry whoever they want to.

Don't be afraid of religious fanatics - be they Jewish, Muslim, or Christian.

[geek tragedy]

14. It's a mosque. The entire top of the plateau is.

It's been that way for centuries. A great many other injustices need to go away before that status quo gets reopened.


The people who are pushing to pray up there are also the ones who want to A
annex the West Bank. Not a coincidence.

[oberliner]

15. No it's not

The Al-Aqsa mosque is a mosque.

The Temple Mount area where Jews want to pray is not a mosque.

It is outside.

True that a lot of the people who want to pray there are also the ones who want to annex the West Bank, but a lot of the people who pray at Al-Aqsa mosque don't believe Israel should exist.

[geek tragedy]

16. The entire area is a mosque complex.

When Israel withdraws the IDF from the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and every settler outside the main blocs either disarms or moves to the right side of the green line, then this debate will be appropriate.

The religious zionists wanting it is more than enough reason to oppose it.

[oberliner]

19. No it's not

In fact, it seems clearly blatantly offensive to Jewish people to claim that all of The Temple Mount is a "mosque complex".

That seems like an attempt to erase any Jewish connection to a location that has been considered an important Jewish site since before Islam existed.

But I do get where Kerry and everyone else are coming from.

From a practical standpoint it makes sense to ban Jews from praying there because it makes millions and millions of Muslims extremely angry to the point of threatening mass violence.

I would, think, however, that a rational secular person would see just how insane it all is.

[geek tragedy]

31. 1900 years ago there was a Jewish temple there.

1900 years ago was the last time a Jewish house of worship stood there.

Hagia Sophia was a church, now is a mosque.

La Mezquita used to be a mosque, is now a church.

Santa Maria sopra Minerva used to be a Roman temple, is now a church.

If the right of return of those who left during the Nakba is ancient history, so are events that took place 1,880 years earlier.

[oberliner]

37. God help me, I am going to quote Wikipedia

Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the ancestral and spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE. During classical antiquity, Jerusalem was considered the center of the world, where God resided.

The city of Jerusalem is given special status in Jewish religious law. In particular, Jews outside Jerusalem pray facing its direction, and the maaser sheni, revai and First Fruits must be eaten in Jerusalem.

Jerusalem appears in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) appears 154 times. The first section, the Torah, only mentions Moriah, the mountain range believed[by whom?] to be the location of the binding of Isaac and the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and in later parts of the Tanakh the city is written explicitly. The Tanakh (or Old Testament), is a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia.[4] The Talmud elaborates in great depth the Jewish connection with the city.

According to the Hebrew Bible, the First Temple, at the site known as the Temple Mount today, was built by King Solomon and finished in 950 BC,[5] and Mount Moriah is where Abraham almost sacrificed his son and talked to God. When the Babylonians captured the city in 580 BC, they destroyed the temple and sent the Jews into exile.[6] That is, all worshiping was practiced in the temple and only the temple. From the Babylonian capture, Judaism was codified.[7] The Tanakh (Old Testament) laid the foundation for both Christianity and Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem

Jerusalem (specifically the Old City and more specifically the Temple Mount) is a really big deal for a lot of Jews. I don't think it is quite the same as the other examples you listed.

[geek tragedy]

41. Israel has already (illegally) annexed all of Jerusalem

already.

End the occupation and apartheid, then maybe coddling some extremists will have more persuasive appeal.

"Reality on the ground" has been the foundation upon which Israel has built its illegal settlement/annexation/apartheid project.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Some Jews want to pray up there, virtually all Palestinians want their basic human right to self-determination.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. Intolerance and fundamentalism haz a sad.

Good.

[oberliner]

2. Thank goodness Jews will be banned from quietly praying!

We can't have Jews "defiling" this sacred Muslim location with their crazy rituals.

[geek tragedy]

5. Israel is being held to its solemn promises.

I can see why some would object.

When Israel allows Muslims to marry Jews, then these cries over religious freedom will have meaning.

[oberliner]

8. But doesn't the whole thing seem a bit silly?

I mean taking a step back - can't you see how crazy it is that this is such a big deal?

[geek tragedy]

10. Sure, but then so are Islam and Judaism and

Christianity.

Not to mention the stick the Israelis have up their collective rear ends about Jerusalem being the eternal and undivided capital, since 1967.

[oberliner]

12. Yes indeed

I think fundamentalist Judaism is actually the craziest of the three.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

22. But seemingly you are defending it.

Curious.

[oberliner]

23. Do you know what religious orthodox Jewish people actually believe?

A lot of it is pretty out there.

But if they want to stand around and pray quietly outside and they don't bother anyone, I think that should be allowed.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

26. Thanks for defending religious fundamentalism again

What the fundies want to do is anything but benign.

If they have to push their way onto Al Asqa mount to prey quietly the it isn't peaceable, and it is an affront to the religion presently using the site...by treaty no less.

[oberliner]

27. Let everybody practice their religious beliefs as long as they are peaceful about it

That's my philosophy.

How about have the Jews only be allowed to be outside and be extremely quiet and maybe at a certain proscribed distance away from the mosque itself?

Does that not seem reasonable?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. I believe that you, and others, have ulterior motives

beyond that of open prayer on Al Asqa Mount.

...IMHO

And I would have to openly question your instance on letting irthodox Jews to pray there when you have said you are secular.

Again, very curios...

[oberliner]

32. I don't insist on letting Orthodox Jews pray there

In fact, I am quite positive that they won't be allowed to do so.

I just think it's stupid.

Why not just let everybody do what they want to do if it doesn't hurt anyone else?

[geek tragedy]

35. When one side has shown that their idea of sharing is to take

EVERYTHING away from the other side, that does not encourage the other side to share.

End the occupation, then there will be a sliver of a moral argument.

[oberliner]

38. Israel has turned over the protection of Islamic holy sites to the Islamic waqf

Freedom of worship for Muslims is a right across Israel.

[geek tragedy]

42. Turned over?

Until Israel reaches a negotiated settlement addressing the status of East Jerusalem, the extremists who want to pray up there wil have to piss up a rope.

[Mosby]

25. because its basically a free speech issue

Something real progressives support.

Whether it's some crazy Jew or nutty Westboro baptist member or klan meeting.

They all deserve free speech.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. Again, I doubt your motives, and IMHO

I believe that you could care less about free speech and more about wrestling control of Al Asqa mount out of the hands of the Muslims who worship there.

IMHO, of course.

[geek tragedy]

33. Spare us the transparent talking points.

Those pushing for this are the religious Zionist fanatics who have dreams of taking the entire site away from the Muslims.

People are free to use their own spaces to pray. Or public spaces. But that site is not a public place, it is an Islamic place of worship and has been exclusively that since the Crusades.

[Mosby]

36. the temple mount is 32 acres

If you and others want to stake out a RW fascist position regarding free speech on the Temple Mount you are certainly free to but I'm a progressive that strongly believes in free speech for everyone including religious people and others that I might strongly disagree with.

[geek tragedy]

39. Because "free speech" appears to be something

you like to chatter at liberals thinking it will score points, free speech/religion also means that places of worship are generally allowed to set their own rules of conduct.

Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount is not a public place, it is an Islamic place of worship. It is not a public park, it is not a sidewalk, it is not a Christian church, it is not a synagogue.

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to practice it anywhere on earth.

You are fooling no one with your attempt to pass off an extreme rightwing agenda thusly.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. Free speech is often used by unsavory characters for nefarious reasons.

See Yehuda Glick, and his dancing excuses: bigotry and hate.

The only ones crying for freedom of speech are the one who want the freedom to take something that does not belong to them.

...and they have the stones to cry about freedom at the same time they rape the West Bank, Gaza and the Palestinian people.

[Scootaloo]

6. You really struggle, don't you Oberliner?

[oberliner]

9. I do

As a secular person, this sort of thing seems crazy to me.

[Scootaloo]

18. Does it?

Religion A has a spot where they gather and worship.
Religion B says "I want that place, give it to me"
Religion A says "No."

That's pretty much it. There's no expectation whatsoever that a faith open its place of worship to other faiths - much less cede control to them. They can ask for access, sure. Sometimes the answer is yes. Sometimes the answer is no. In this case the answer is no.

When we consider the political nature of this demand, it becomes farcical.

[oberliner]

20. Yes

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

[azurnoir]

7. .......

Star Member azurnoir (40,541 posts)
39. up until the recent rise of revisionist Zionist Rabbi's , most traditional Rabbi's

had a prohibition on Jews even walking on the Temple Mount much less paying there lest they accidentally desecrate what is called the Holy of Holies or where G-d reputedly dwelt and the Ark of the Covenant was kept

and anyone who claims this is about innocent Jews simply mumbling to themselves or praying, well I got a bridge to sell ya, but I suspect more those who make such claims wish to play on the lack of knowledge of the average reader

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=115815

and the reply

oberliner (32,607 posts)
40. No kidding

That all seems nuts to me, personally.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=115818

[oberliner]

11. Exactly

The rabbis are as nuts as the mullahs.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

65. Would you like some dip to go with that monumental chip on your shoulder?

[hedda_foil]

3. Wow!

[6chars]

17. seems like a win-win solution

will prevent provocations on both sides, and reduce incitement due to exaggerated claims. good idea. now, how to make Netanyahu and Kerry look bad for it anyway.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. A step in the right direction!

[Israeli]

59. Oh for sure .....

.........some individuals are having hissy fits tho ......

I'm waiting for Uri Ariel to announce his resignation

ref: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/202241#.VixubNJrhkg

Yehuda Glick seems to be calling for a rebellion ......

see : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/202368#.VixxjNJrhkg

[RandySF]

28. How about no one prays there?

Seriously, I'm going to impose my American viewpoint that naked religious intolerance is unacceptable in a modern civilization. And yes, this time Muslims extremist are the most culpable.

[geek tragedy]

34. It's a mosque complex and has been that way

since the Crusades. Christians haven't used it in centuries, Jews haven't used it for over 1900 years.

[mwrguy]

40. Good. This place belongs to Islam.

Kerry and Obama are on the right side of history.

[leftynyc]

43. Bullshit

The Temple Miunt is sacred to both religions. This is giving in to fanatics in order to keep the peace. After trying to Islamicize the Western Wall last week with that repulsive UNESCO vote, it's way more than is deserved.

[oberliner]

44. "This place belongs to Islam"

This post right here is exactly why I have responded the way I have to this OP for anyone who cares.

[leftynyc]

46. I care

That post is disgusting and if it were the other way around, the howls of outrage would be deafening. Fuck that attitude and all those who support it and those who aren't posting against it.

[grossproffit]

49. I care, too. I care so much that sometimes I get physically ill reading some of these posts.

I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. Some here want so badly to silence those of us who support Israel, and have this forum all to themselves. #IstandwithIsrael

[leftynyc]

52. I'm in Israel right now

having a wonderful time. I've been fighting what you're talking about on DU since 2002. I don't tweet but also stand with Israel. We changed the clocks from daylight savings time last night so I get an extra hour here and then again when I get home. The caffeine filled coffee slushies here help me need little sleep.

[Israeli]

53. Its only 6am here ....

.....and you posted 4 hours ago ....strange holiday you are having .

[leftynyc]

54. Those caffeine filled coffee

Slushies Ive discovered are wonderful. Not a big sleeper in the US either. I got an extra hour to troll the Internet last night and I'll get another next week when I go home. Too much to do and see to sleep. Just watched another beautiful sunrise but could use the heat to break which I'm reading it will tomorrow. That will help on our upcoming side trip to Petra in a few days.

[Israeli]

55. where are you ?

Its cold where I am...supposed to rain tomorrow .
Petra is beautiful ....enjoy.

[leftynyc]

56. I'm in Tel Aviv

Crazy humid here. Rain tomorrow will be fine...one museum after another on the itinerary. We ate by the sea last night and didn't realize how close the airport was when a plane flew right over our heads to land. We were very startled until we realized we were the only ones even looking up. Can't wait to see Petra..it looks amazing.

[leftynyc]

66. Whoa - you werent

Kidding about the cool down. A day of rain and even a touch of hail with a real hint of autumn temps - well autumn for a NYer. We just grabbed umbrellas and carried on. Jaffa was amazing. So cool to see the oldest port in the world. Another early morning but sun rising to show a blue sky. And my football Giants managed to win without me watching.

[leftynyc]

68. Issue with Petra

Those storms have flooded the border crossing near Eilat so may have to drive to and stay in Amman tomorrow and the drive back to Tel Aviv after Petra next day. That's okay - just waiting to find out how much we're going to lose out on between the flights to Eilat and the hotel down there. Any advice about all that would be appreciated. Hope you are well.

[Israeli]

74. Oops sorry ....

Just noticed this now .

I hope you have booked with a tour ....you cant cross via Allenby with a rental car nor can you get a visa there ...its the only crossing that you need to get a visa in advance .

How did it go ??

[leftynyc]

76. We're here in Petra

Drove back to Allenby and drove 5 hours with a lovely driver who will be our guide tomorrow. Staying right across entrance gate to site at Movenpick which is an amazingly beautiful hotel. So excited I hope I'm able to sleep. Lost an hour as they don't change till Friday but gain it back again tomorrow - our watches are getting a workout. Didn't cost an extra dime...our tour company is great. Gotta go horizontal now...starting tomorrow at 6:30am. Will let you know all about it.

[grossproffit]

57. How exciting. I hope you're having a wonderful time.

[leftynyc]

58. I am

Now off for another coffee slushy and something to eat before roaming the streets. Have a great Sunday.

[Igel]

45. Cordoba is home to the Great Mosque.

The Hagia Sophia was an Orthodox Church. Currently Xians aren't allowed to pray there--the Turks are afraid that if this happens (like they could stop it) it'll somehow revert to what it was or there'll be a claim that might be pursued.

This is the same as with the Hagia Sophia. The same fear, the same sense of insecurity at humiliation, the same intolerance.

People aren't being killed because some Jews want to pray. People are being killed because of a symbol, because of a sense of violated superiority and humiliation.


Note that there's been a Muslim campaign to allow Muslims to pray there quietly. That's banned, last I heard. Last time that came up on DU--it's been years--the general view seemed to strongly tilt towards thinking this was intolerant and silent prayers can neither be stopped nor should be banned.

Then again, there's often an opinion that there are two standards--one for those we think are oppressed and another for those that are like us, the oppressors.

[6chars]

47. Because a prophet had a dream about the site of the Jewish temple?

Is it that easy?

[grossproffit]

48. It belongs to ALL.

[sabbat hunter]

50. Just so people knowa

There has been long stretches where Jews were allowed to pray on the temple mount, and there was likely a synagogue there even during the years it was under rule of the successors to Muhammed. http://www.meforum.org/3556/temple-mount


So it has not been anywhere near 1900 years where Jews were not allowed to pray on the Temple mount (or didn't pray on the Mount) but more like less than 200, and that was due to laws imposed by the late ottoman Empire. and even those laws were lifted after the Crimean War

There have been Rabbinical prohibitions on going there, due to lack of red heifers, being impure.

[geek tragedy]

51. Your claims about prayer under the Ottoman Empire is flat out false according to your own link.

With the Ottoman conquest of Jerusalem in 1516, the relationship between the Jewish people and the Temple Mount entered a new phase. Sultan Suleiman I (the Magnificent, 1494-1566) ordered the rebuilding of the city's walls and encouraged many European Jews, especially those who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal a generation earlier, to settle in the Holy City. Suleiman also instructed his court architect to prepare a place for Jewish prayer in an alley at the bottom of the Western retaining wall of the Temple Mount because he had prohibited all non-Muslims from entering any part of the Temple Mount. A royal decree was issued that guaranteed for all times the right of Jews to pray at this Western Wall in compensation for the Jews' relinquishing their legal rights to pray on the mount itself.[47]

Subsequent Ottoman rulers invested little effort in the upkeep of the Dome of the Rock or al-Aqsa Mosque. There are no records of important Muslim clerics or kings or even large crowds of ordinary Muslims praying on the Temple Mount.[48] Even those rabbinical authorities, who agreed in theory with the precedents that permitted ascent, hedged their rulings in view of the actual situation on the ground. Rabbi Yosef Di'Trani, who visited Jerusalem during the 1590s, noted that there were locations on the southern and eastern sides of the Temple Mount where Jews could walk freely without any concern of entering a prohibited area, but he ruled that Jews should, nonetheless, avoid going there because they were not ritually clean. In the nineteenth century, students of the rabbinical giant, the Vilna Gaon, arrived in Jerusalem and became the prototype of today's ultra-Orthodox haredi community. The leader of this group, Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov (d. 1839), held that though there were areas on the Temple Mount that they were allowed to enter, Jews were, nevertheless, forbidden to ascend as the exact location of these permitted areas was in some doubt.[49] This ruling became the normative position of the Orthodox world for the next 150 years. Despite rabbinical decrees prohibiting access to the mountain and the death penalty threat for any Jew caught on the mountain, the deep-seated Jewish attachment to the Temple Mount remained strong. An unknown number of Jews ascended the mountain surreptitiously during these centuries. No records were kept of these visits because of their clandestine nature, but occasional references in Muslim court records and travelers' accounts give evidence of their occurrence.[50]

In the aftermath of the Crimean War (1853-56), the Temple Mount was opened daily (except on Fridays) to all visitors, regardless of their religion—a concession demanded by the victorious British. Nevertheless, the Jerusalem rabbis again issued a decree prohibiting Jews from going up, threatening to put any Jew who ignored their ruling under the ban, a form of rabbinical excommunication from the community. While the vast majority of Jews abided by the decree, many ignored it, including prominent visitors, such as Sir Moses Montefiore and Baron Edmond de Rothschild. Many of the new secular settlers also disregarded the rabbinical instructions and visited the site.[51]

[sabbat hunter]

61. the last paragraph

after the Crimean War (when it was still under the control of the Ottoman Empire) the Temple Mount was open to all religions, and some jews did pray there. You even highlighted it.

[geek tragedy]

62. they weren't allowed to do so but they did

you wrote that it was allowed, which is blatantly untrue

[sabbat hunter]

63. I will show you the line again

&quot , the Temple Mount was opened daily (except on Fridays) to all visitors, regardless of their religion—a concession demanded by the victorious British. "

It was indeed allowed. See above quote.

[geek tragedy]

64. Visiting and praying are two different things.

Jews are allowed to visit under the current status quo.

[shira]

67. Palestinian Leaders hate the 24-7 surveilance cameras

http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-leaders-jewish-activists-reject-cameras-on-temple-mount/

[Mosby]

69. the mufti of J'lem

Now claims that the Jewish temples never existed. He is even ignoring Muslim sources of proof, talk about politics trumping religion.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-mufti-denies-temple-mount-ever-housed-jewish-shrine/

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. He andNetanyahu should be dance partners.

[shira]

71. Can't condemn that, can you? Just deflecting towards Israel.

Weak sauce.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

72. Whatever that word salad means...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=116376

Oh, you never answered. You went and dern hid.

[Mosby]

73. do you argee with the mufti or not?

Seems like a simple question especially for a "progressive".

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

75. I agree

that the Mufti and Netanyahu should be dance partners.