Israel to lift freeze on marketing of 454 settler homes in East Jerusalem

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

World | Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:21am EST

Israel to lift freeze on marketing of 454 settler homes in East Jerusalem

JERUSALEM

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has approved the marketing of land for the construction of 454 homes in two settlements in East Jerusalem, a government official said on Tuesday.

The building of 436 of the housing units, in the settlement of Ramat Shlomo on land Israel occupied in a 1967 war, was approved in 2012. But the project was later frozen in an apparent attempt to avoid friction with Washington.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden publicly scolded Israel when construction plans for Ramat Shlomo, which is in territory Palestinians seek for a future state, were first announced in 2010 while he was visiting Jerusalem.

The government official, who asked not to be identified, said Netanyahu gave the go-ahead on Monday to market 436 homes in Ramat Shlomo and another 18 in Ramot.

In a statement, the Palestinian Authority condemned the Israeli plan and settlement-building as a whole as a "flagrant violation of international law" aimed at preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/17/us-israel-palestinians-settlements-idUSKCN0T61DG20151117

[Jefferson23]

1. Laws be damned. n/t

[geek tragedy]

2. Might as well proceed with the one-state solution sooner rather than later.

Rip off the bandage.

[oberliner]

3. One-state is not a solution

In fact, it would be the worst of everything for everyone - essentially a recipe for civil war.

The Geneva Initiative offers a real solution where both the Israelis and Palestinians have their own independent state living side by side at peace with one another.

The voices for this initiative are the ones we ought to be encouraging.

Geneva Initiative - Yes to an agreement - Home Page
www.geneva-accord.org

[Jefferson23]

4. Have you read all of the 50 page document? n/t

[oberliner]

5. Of course - I have been a strong proponent of the initiative since its inception

I've been trying to spread the word on DU and elsewhere for years.

[Jefferson23]

6. Why any Palestinian would accept a bantustan, which is the foundation of the initiative you

support is beyond me. I have read it all too.

[oberliner]

10. Geneva Initiative Public Commitment Event: Remarks by Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter

Excerpt:

1.This Geneva initiative offers the crucial and unavoidable elements of a permanent peace in the Holy Land. There will be inevitable modifications to this agreement if and when official and sincere peace talks are ever conducted, but the basic premises must remain intact. The alternative is sustained and permanent violence.

This agreement would resolve the conflict's most critical issues, including border delineations, Israeli settlements, the excessive occupation of Palestinian lands, the future of Jerusalem and its holy places, and the extremely troubling question of Palestinian refugees. It is unlikely that we shall ever see a more promising foundation for peace.

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1556.html

[Jefferson23]

15. His words, There will be inevitable modifications......

If those modifications included RoR issues, which it does not address very well and the demand was revoked
Israel be recognized as a Jewish State, which would compromise their responsibilities
to compensate refugees, compromise the rights of Israeli Arabs already living there as well,
you could say that would be a place to start.

It demands all UN resolutions be found null and void, no further claims against Israel,
so the resolve would need to be amended to ensure a viable state.

It demands a demilitarized Palestine, with Israel maintaining control of the airspace, laws, water aquifers,
imports, exports, and foreign relations, and the borders would be under international control too.

If you imagine that is the description of a free people with their own viable state, I would say
the only reason the PA was on board is b/c they have capitulated to Israel and another reason
they're marked as corrupt...and rightly so.

Keep in mind that Israel flat out said, no way..so it was not ever a starting point for
them never mind a means to end the conflict. There's been a fair resolve for many
years, if sanctions need to be applied to Israel in order for a viable state to become
reality for future generations then so be it.


Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine

The Two State Solution of Israel and Palestine

WHEREAS, the United Nations General Assembly resolution, Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine, has continually addressed the 4 final status issues, including borders, East Jerusalem, settlements and the question of the Palestinian refugees for 20 years now. The resolution is adopted every year by the UN General Assembly and receives confirmatory votes by the overwhelming majority of the international community. The number of negative votes is only between 2 to 7 depending on the year.[ii] In 2012 the resolution was passed for the 20th time with 163 nations voting in its favor and only 6 nations (Canada, Israel, Marshal Islands, Micronesia, Palau and United States) voting against the resolution.

Borders, East Jerusalem and the Wall

WHEREAS, the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine resolution addresses the question of borders, East Jerusalem and the wall in the following manner:

Reaffirming the principle of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.

Stresses the need for:

(a) The withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory (West Bank and Gaza) occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem.

(b) The realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination and the right to their independent State.

Affirming once again the right of all States in the region to live in peace within secure and internationally recognized borders.

Reaffirms its commitment, in accordance with international law, to the two-State solution of Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders, based on the pre-1967 borders.

Reaffirming also that the construction by Israel, the occupying power, of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated regime are contrary to international law.

Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory

WHEREAS, the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine resolution addresses the question of the Israeli settlements built in the Occupied Palestinian Territory in the following manner:

Reaffirming the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem.

Reiterates its demand for the complete cessation of all Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan, and calls for the full implementation of the relevant Security Council resolutions.

http://unbisnet.un.org:8080/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=13ML54G070969.88530&profile=bib&uri=full=3100001~!966050~!0&ri=5&aspect=subtab124&menu=search&source=~!horizon

[oberliner]

20. Japan accepted being a demilitarized state

The US basically wrote their constitution and had effective control of those same elements you describe above.

Worked out pretty well for them in the end.

[Jefferson23]

24. That is a stretch, indeed.

I am not saying the document holds no merit, oberliner. As I outlined, there are
significant obstacles that remain.

[oberliner]

26. Yes, I know

I guess I am just wanting to make the point that the current situation is really not good and that the solution that would result from the Geneva Initiative would be better, even though it is not perfect. Might it not be better to try to reach a compromise?

[Jefferson23]

29. I try very hard to understand how less is more when it comes to defining a viable state, I really do

A compromise is expected but without a viable state, you'll never have peace.

You can't define a state viable when it is not, this is not possible to fool
people for long. They must be able to thrive...we know this for all people
so why expect a different outcome for Palestinians?

[oberliner]

32. What about the 1967 borders and a compromise on Jerusalem?

All of Gaza and all of the West Bank comprising a Palestinian state with some sort of mutually agreed upon arrangements for the significant religious sites in the old city. Does that seem reasonable?

[Jefferson23]

35. That is up to the Palestinians, that's what I was trying to express.

Nevertheless, I would think they would agree with that, and have
their own airport, seaport etc..their own army. Just like other states have.

For Israel to sign an agreement to vacate all of the WB
and have it ratified soon after, although the cost, which I would
support the US help fund ( as I see those funds as a means for
the US to amend its legacy of negligence as a broker ). Would
be huge undertaking and take years to complete..but would go
a long way in terms of building trust during the process.

[geek tragedy]

7. civil wars eventually end. a civil war with an end is preferable to a never-ending occupation nt

[Mosby]

9. The one state fantasy will never happen

What's a lot more likely to happen in the absence of a negotiated settlement is subsidized relocation for the Palestinians and then annexation.

With all the problems in the world, especially in the ME the Palestinians are rapidly running out of time to do a deal.

[geek tragedy]

13. "Subsidized relocation" = ethnic cleansing.

Only genocidal pigs who have Slobo Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic as soul mates would suggest such action.

An Israeli state that attempted that would deserve anything that came its way. Anything.

You apparently have an amazingly low opinion of Israelis if you think they would attempt to run the Slobo playbook.

Just to be clear--the Palestinians will not abandon Palestine willingly. The Israelis would have to do it the old-fashioned way-genocide.

[Mosby]

16. I'm a realist

The election system, party makeups and voting patterns in Israel make me think that the RW will continue to maintain control for possibly decades.

Additionally, the Palestinian and international responses to the conflict are slowly moving the Israeli electorate to the right.

Terrorism against Israelis might not result in a lot of short term changes, but over time it changes Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians.

[geek tragedy]

18. Then NATO bombing of Israel would have to be on the table.

Certainly the other Arab states would, with great justification.

If Israel wants to commit violent, sudden suicide that would be the way to go. They wouldn't b getting any help from us. Russia and China would be more than happy to help th Arabs.

[Mosby]

19. NATO, that's funny

What has NATO done about the takeover, occupation and ethnic cleansing by a NATO county in Cyprus?

Not a damn thing.

It's ironic that your go to solution is violence/interventionism. Maybe Nato should mind their own business for once and let Israel and the Palestinians work this out with out mommy and daddy.

[geek tragedy]

22. You were the one who predicted Israel would perpetrate

genocide in the same manner as did Slobo.

[Mosby]

37. No, that was your "spin"

What I said is that absent a negotiated settlement the future Israeli governments might offer financial incentives to WB Palestinians to relocate.

[geek tragedy]

38. Which would be refused nt

[King_David]

36. Some Palestinians have no qualms selling property in East Jerusalem to Jews,

And that penalty is death ....


So I am not sure how you can speak for them thus :

Just to be clear--the Palestinians will not abandon Palestine willingly.

You never know.......

[oberliner]

11. The civil war in Lebanon went on for 15 years with 120,000 fatalities

And in the years since it ended, there has still been political violence and strife and the underlining problems between the various disparate communities remain with sporadic bouts of violence occurring regularly.

The only real, lasting solution to the I/P conflict is two states - something along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.

Please consider supporting it.

[geek tragedy]

12. When the two sides show a genuine interest, I will. nt

[oberliner]

21. Fair enough

I just wish there was more energy behind the initiative from progressives and the like.

[geek tragedy]

23. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis care what the left

has to say.

[oberliner]

25. What is the purpose of the I/P forum at DU in your mind?

What do you think you are accomplishing with your posts? I mean that question sincerely.

[geek tragedy]

27. To re-orient the debate amongst Americans such that it focuses on

what is good for the United States and its internal and external policies and politics.

The need for our politicians to kiss the ass of a foreign power is deeply unhealthy.

[oberliner]

28. Do you think things are moving in the right direction on that front?

Have you seen positive change over the years since Obama has been in office?

[geek tragedy]

30. The Iran deal's success was a necessary defeat for those who would

let Israel run our foreign policy (vast majority are Republicans). Hopefully in the future that will not happen.

[oberliner]

31. You think Israel runs our foreign policy?

I would respectfully disagree with that. It actually seems like we run their foreign policy (like when we told them not to retaliate to the Scud missile attacks).

[geek tragedy]

33. No they don't run our foreign policy.

President Obama made sure of that.

[geek tragedy]

34. from the recent huffpo piece

In March of that year, Dermer pulled off his greatest coup. Working behind the administration’s back with Speaker of the House John Boehner, he arranged for Netanyahu to make the case against a nuclear deal in front of a joint session of Congress. When some of his own senior defense officials warned that the speech would cause irreparable damage to his relationship with Obama, Netanyahu brushed them off. "Netanyahu once said during a cabinet discussion I participated in that 'what the president thinks about us is important, but it's more important what the young soldier at the entrance to the White House thinks about us,’” explains another former Israeli minister. “He believed he could beat Obama through American public opinion.”

But the tactic backfired. In fact, all the things that Netanyahu saw as helpful to his cause were used against him. The speech before Congress may have looked like a sign of strength to Netanyahu’s supporters, but it allowed the Obama administration to portray his opposition to the nuclear deal as politically motivated—part of a ploy to make Bibi look tough in advance of Israel’s upcoming elections. Netanyahu’s opponents also recirculated an old video of him testifying before Congress in support of the Iraq War. Back in 2003, Bibi had used his testimony to show the Israeli public how much influence he had in Washington. Now, his appearance seemed to prove Obama's point that the opponents of the Iran deal were "the same people who got us into Iraq."

In early September, the Iran deal passed Congress, and the geopolitical dynamic in the Middle East was fundamentally reconfigured. For the first time in decades, Iran was no longer the most isolated country in the region. It was internationally recognized and powerful. Netanyahu's office tried to claim that he "never believed the deal could be stopped through Congress,” but even some of his allies believe he was convinced his speech would have more of an impact.

"Netanyahu comes from a home environment that admired power. His world is one of strong and weak, where everything is measured on a power scale," says a former Israeli minister who was close to him for decades. Obama's victory on the Iran deal was a personal humiliation for Netanyahu. Not only did he appear weak by losing the battle, but he also lost his partnership with the American president—this time for good.

When the two met at the White House earlier this week, both sides tried to pretend that things were copacetic. Netanyahu brought up the possibility of a two-state solution. Obama promised to boost security aid to Israel. But a U.S. official told us not to have any illusions: "The president and Bibi are never going to be friends. We're never going to get over Iran."

[Little Tich]

40. The Geneva Initiave is a scam.

Besides, I think most Israelis are normal peace-loving people, and they wouldn't start a war against the Palestinians.

[6chars]

8. I wonder if Ramat Shlomo would be dismantled or abandoned by Israel in a future agreement

Does anyone have a sense of the geography of this settlement vis a vis Jerusalem?

[Mosby]

14. It's just west of Pisgat ze'ev,

[6chars]

17. Found this tool that helps visualize

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#14;31.798553612192997;35.2111694019295;40.78248838447748;-73.97021883173831;Jerusalem;Manhattan;terrain;false;false;false

mapmerizer is a tool that works on top of Google Maps. It allows you to pick two locations and shows them side by side at the same scale, and then move within maps just like normal, and resize both maps simultaneously.

Here on the left is Jerusalem, with Ramat Shlomo at the top, the Knesset at the bottom. On the right is Manhattan's Central Park.

Good to understand the geography.

Beyond that, a megacool website (before clicking, can google mapmerizer to see that it is safe).

[Little Tich]

39. One more step towards a binational state. n/t