Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumReport: PA President Mahmoud Abbas worked as KGB agent in Damascus during 80's
http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Report-PA-President-Mahmoud-Abbas-worked-as-KGB-agent-in-Damascus-during-80s-467147According to Channel 1's Oren Nahari, Abbas's name appears on a list of KGB agents that was obtained by Israeli researchers Isabella Ginor and Gideon Remez from Hebrew University's Truman Institute. Nahari reported that the part of the archives containing Abbas' name was made public a few months ago.
According to the report, Abbas' code name was Krotov, or “mole.” Nahari said it was not known whether Abbas was an agent before or after the date listed in the document.
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ericson00
(2,707 posts)who woulda thunk?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)To recap past history: primary backer of PLA and then the PA during cold war - Soviet Union.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)because surely, someone will
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It doesn't work to try to get out of engaging with Fatah or Hamas, because they will always been the factions with most of the weaponry.
Any agreement signed by some other Palestinian leadership but NOT involving Fatah and Hamas(and not including the creation of an actual and permanent Palestinian state)would be worthless.
Why even try?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)sit down with? You're making it sound like a complete and utter waste of time - something many Israeli's agree with you on.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We've all been taught by the history of this dispute that refusing to negotiate with the existing Palestinian leadership, while continuing to expand the West Bank settlements(settlements that should never have been started in the first place, as Ben-Gurion himself pointed out many times, since they achieve no good that outweighs the harm they cause) can never lead to the emergence of a BETTER Palestinian leadership-and that there will NEVER be a credible Palestinian leadership willing to settle permanently for something short of independence(the years have proved to Palestinians that nothing short of independence can give them any hope of a decent life).
Netanyahu's approach is precisely the tactic tried over and over again by Begin and Shamir (under who Netanyahu served as a diplomat and spokesman for years) throughout the Eighties and early Nineties. They not only refused to accept the necessity of negotiating with the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people, they anathemized (with Labor's support, to be fair) anyone who supported a two-state solution as "anti-Israel" (and often as antisemitic as well). When Netanyahu returned to power after Oslo, he resumed the use of this tactic-humiliating Arafat with the pointless siege of his compound in Ramallah and collectively punishing rank-and-file Palestinians for violence done by the militants. No BETTER Palestinian leadership ever emerged from this, only Hamas. If immiseration and refusal to negotiate, while expanding illegal settlements and collectively immiserating the Palestinian population and simultaneously equating any public dissent from this failed strategy with hatred of Jews has failed to achieve anything at all since 1967, how could staying that failed and discredited course achieve anything different now? Or at least, anything different in a positive way?
The Palestinians can't achieve final military victory. Neither can the Israelis. The only chance there is at all of changing any of this(and change is the ONLY hope) is through negotiations.
Who should the Israeli government sit down with? The people who have the guns. Any agreement end to the conflict must have buy-in from the current armed factions, or it will be useless. It's not possible to invent some other leadership, get that other leadership to sign something, and then expect Fatah and Hamas to just voluntarily stop(and then to expect that other leadership, if it ever came into existence, to either create a new military force just to liquidate Hamas and Fatah with extreme prejudice OR to let the IDF come into newly-"independent" Palestinian territory and stage an epic "mop-up" operation of the sort the same IDF has never been able to come close to achieving under the Occupation).
And if Netanyahu is going to keep demanding that the Palestinian side not bring any preconditions into the talks, then he needs to give up demanding preconditions of his own-it should be enough that Fatah reiterate its existing recognition of the State of Israel and that Fatah simply recognize it in the exact same way Egypt and Jordan recognize it; neither should have to totally abandon any form of RoR(it's enough that they not insist on physical RoR for all descendants of the expellees of '48 and '67); and they shouldn't have to accept NOT getting East Jerusalem as the capital or the preservation of most settlements. If Netanyahu wants actual negotiations, he shouldn't be insisting that Palestinians accept terms for having them that read to them as humiliation and defeat. The negotiations need to start with "parity of esteem", mutual respect, and an acknowledgment that both national communities have deep roots in the same soil.
None of that is asking all that much. None of it harms Israeli security or costs the country any international prestige.
And nothing is safer in leaving things as they are. There is no real security in the safety in the status quo, and certainly nothing worth demonizing everyone who questions it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)of negotiating with fatah when hamas is still in power in Gaza. Perhaps it the Palestinians that need to get their own house in order before demanding the Israeli's sit down with those who have shown ZERO evidence they would sit down and stop shooting Israeli's. I don't demonize those who question it - I question why they're such hypocrites.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)...when the IDF(metaphorically at least)keeps bulldozing the house?
What Palestinians need is some breathing space...a reduction in the perpetual harassment from the IDF...and end to petty acts of meanness like the destruction of solar power panels(a technology that can't BE weaponized in any way at all)simply because the NGO that constructed the solar panels got sick of waiting for the IDF to approve the construction. Or the diversion of most of the water, or the restrictions on movement and the right to travel that make it impossible for many Palestinians to get work or to have any hope in life. There was never any justification for collective punishment, collective punishment has never made Israel any more secure, and its time to admit it doesn't work.
If you want Palestinians to make better choices, give them something to live for. It's not right to make every moment of the life of a West Bank or Gaza resident a punishment or a humiliation. And if prejudice is part of it(btw...assuming that the Palestinians act out of hatred of Jews, rather than legitimate anger at their treatment by the Israeli goverment, implies that Palestinians have no real valid grievances here. Do you actually personally believe this?
It's simple...if immiserating the people of the West Bank and Gaza hasn't caused the downfall of Hamas yet, it never CAN cause that downfall. The occupation has now gone on almost as long as the U.S. embargo against Cuba. We just admitted the embargo never worked and that it's time to end it. Why shouldn't Netanyahu do the same thing in this case?
BTW, far more Palestinians get killed than Israelis ever do. And many of those who are killed are civilians, some children(there SHOULD be a rule that children are never a legitimate military target, period).
It's not hypocrisy to reject the argument that the whole thing is the fault of the Palestinian leadership and the Israeli side are nothing but blameless, innocent victims who just want what's best for everyone. There is equal responsibility on both sides, and both sides have to change. It's just that there's no way for change to come FROM the status quo. The status quo is a failure. The continued existence of Hamas proves that.
Why can't you accept the fact that there's nothing in the current situation that is worth preserving? That the existing order does nothing to make Israel any more secure or peace any more likely? What the hell is there to like?
shira
(30,109 posts)What makes you think they work for the best interests of the Palestinian people? In fact, Palestinians are their first victims as they don't give a shit about them, but rather themselves.
Take Hamas for instance, stealing millions from WorldVision and billions of USD squandered by both Hamas and Fatah over the years. All their leaders are billionaires. Palestinians don't benefit from that aid.
Yet here you are making excuses for these innocent lambs, always blaming Israel.
Pathetic.
==================================
Hard to take you seriously given Israel has already offered the Palestinians their own state free of occupation and settlements many times. The Palestinians keep rejecting these offers. Why? Give me the real reason, no bullshit. Be honest. No deflections. Why all this rejection?
Again, be honest.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Barak and Olmert's offers would have left the West Bank filled with settlements(forcing Palestinians to go from one military checkpoint to another-or be prevented from going through those checkpoints-just to get from one part of Palestine to another. Every deal the Israeli side ever offered was predicated on the assumption that a Palestinian state could never really be trusted to live in peace with Israel, and that the IDF should have the right to perpetually hinder freedom of movement and the right to travel(none of these offers would ever have allowed direct airline service to Palestine, thus giving the Israeli government the ability to shut down both access between Palestinians and the outside world AND the Palestinian economy itself.
Why could there never be ANY offers that gave the Palestinian side any credit for at least having the possibility of being able to carry out its day-to-day existence like a normal country? How could the Israeli leadership ever have expected any Palestinian leadership(and I actually don't like the Hamas or Fatah leaderships any more than you do, its just that I believe that any negotiating process has to involve "parity of esteem"-the concept that made the end of The Troubles in Northern Ireland possible-and that negotiations based on the assumption that one side is legitimate and other isn't simply can't ever work) to accept any framework for anything that was based on the Israeli leadership saying, in effect "we have the right to be here and you guys don't".
The problem your ideas about how to deal with the existing Palestinian leadership is that, for any end to the conflict to happen is that that leadership are the people who have the weaponry, and an agreement not involving them can never end the fighting. Hamas and Fatah would just keep fighting on, and no other possible Palestinian leadership with any credibility could either agree to liquidate Hamas or Fatah militarily OR look the other way while the IDF stormed through a supposedly independent Palestinian state trying to finish those groups off(a goal the IDF has never come anywhere close to achieving even when it still occupied Gaza as well as the West Bank. Berating and condemning Hamas and Fatah can't work either...they would not be able to get the most violent among them to stop their actions unless they can show those people that they haven't been shamed or defeated by the Israeli side. They could never make anything stick or hold together if it looks as though the Israelis have humiliated them at the negotiating table.
That is why your insistence on blaming everything on the Palestinian side does nothing but damage to any hopes of changing anything for the better. You don't sound like you care about ending the suffering...you sound like you care only about being able to say that your side in the conflict "won"-and this isn't something that CAN be "won"
in the Middle East, victory in the military sense is no longer possible, as everything that has happened since 2003 shows). It needs to end in a face-saving draw
for Israelis AND Palestinians.
And it's
shira
(30,109 posts)Why did the Palestinian leadership reject all those offers before any settlements existed? Before any oppression....
What's your excuse this time for Palestinian leaders?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)to reject the Saudi plan and for Begin and Shamir to totally anthemize the idea of negotiating with the PLO and accepting a Palestinian state. There was never anything short of the Palestinians getting full independence and the West Bank and Gaza that ever had any chance of producing a viable state.
Also, the Palestinians themselves weren't represented in those talks. Others presumed to speak for them. Anybody is going to be wary of agreeing to a proposal they themselves had no say in drafting.
And in negotiating, the only thing that works is negotiating with the people the other side chooses on its own to represent it. There has never been, at any point, ANY leadership independent of Fatah or Hamas that could ever have had any credibility with the Palestinians themselves, especially if there'd been an alternate leadership that would settle for "autonomy" or the confederation under Jordan instead of statehood.
I don't like the Palestinian leadership that exists now...it's just that it's pointless to try to replace them with another leadership, because this is the leadership that actually has the guns. A deal signed without them would be meaningless because they would be certain to go on fighting.
shira
(30,109 posts)So why? Why were they rejected?
Be honest.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Although, prior to the 1960s, Palestinians themselves had little power to reject OR accept anything, since before that time they were either a conquered people under the Ottoman or powerless subjects of the British Empire as part of the League of Nations Mandate. So most of the proposals you speak of were rejected by the regional Arab leadership, not the Palestinian people, a people who were not represented in any of those talks.
I do know that it's silly to keep trying to reduce the entire Palestinian side of the argument to antisemitism, because Arab Muslims, Arab Christians and non-Zionist indigenous Jewish people had generally co-existed much more amicably than Jews and Christians in Europe. There was never an Arab equivalent to the Caesars, the Inquisitors, the tsars or Hitler. And in the history of Spain, Jews were generally treated much better by the Moorish rulers than bu the Christians. It wasn't the Moors who expelled them from Spain. nor did Arabs or Muslims ever conceive of anything remotely comparable to the Inquisition, the "blood libel", or Auschwitz. And that is one of the reasons, I think that Palestinians and other Arabs(remember, Palestinians are not "generic Arabs" and can't be assumed to be part of some sort of toxic regional hivemind) have had the feelings they have had about Zionism in practice.
It's entirely reasonable for a Palestinian to ask "why should my family have been uprooted from their homes to create this state? They had nothing to do with what Hitler and his minions did. We couldn't have stopped him and it's not OUR fault that the U.S. and Canada barred the door to those refugees. Why should WE have been punished for what other people did somewhere else?"
And even if you were right...even if it WAS nothing but bigotry, how could any of the tactics and any of acts the of oppression cause that to change? It's not possible to crush people into tolerance. Calling it nothing but bigotry is just an excuse to keep anything from changing.
You're just going to have to accept the reality here...yes, there are some purely hateful Palestinians(as there are an equal quantity of purely hateful Israelis, as you'd have to acknowledge)but this is about legitimate grievances over how people have been treated and how their land has been taken from them. Anyone else, anywhere in the world, who was treated like this would be just as angry at whoever it was that was subjecting them to that treatment. It's not bigotry to resent foreign troops swaggering through your streets like conquerors, or about water shortages, or about the theft of the olive and lemon trees your family raised for centuries, or about being unable to hold a job because you are kept waiting at checkpoints for hours, or about your grandmother dying of a heart attack at a checkpoint because somebody won't let the WRONG ambulance take her to the hospital. No one has to be a bigot to be angry about that.
shira
(30,109 posts)You know damned well why each of those proposals for an Arab Palestinian state were rejected.
But it kills your little anti-Israel narrative to admit it.
I asked you to be honest. You failed.
BTW, this is why your "shtick" isn't taken seriously by anyone. And I don't have time for it either.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The things you defend-the occupation and in particular the settlement project that Ben-Gurion always opposed have never made Israel any more secure or brought peace any closer.
I want BOTH sides to have better leaders-but we both know that nothing your hero Netanyahu(the man whose hate-based, war-based policies you always unquestioningly defend in this group) does or wants to do can ever lead to peace, or to a change for the better in the Palestinian leadership. Why even pretend otherwise? And why pretend that, if bigotry is even part of the reason Palestinians seek to change the situation, it is somehow possible to militarily crush bigotry? People can't be subjugated into tolerance. And you always forget the fact that, when the Palestinian leadership did make major changes in tactics in the Nineties, all they got for changng was MORE settlements and more repression.
The most "pro-Israel" position a person can take is to oppose the settlements and to call for Palestinians to be treated like human beings who are capable of living in peace with Israel if Israel as a country gives them breathing space and treats them like human beings rather than what Shamir called them.
BTW if you're going to denounce violence on the Palestinian side, will you agree that the Israelis were wrong to deport Mubarak Awad, the man who was trying to get Palestinians to use Gandhian tactics? And that no nonviolent protest marches and rallies in the Wesrt bank should ever be violently broken up by the IDF?
shira
(30,109 posts)You're not even being asked to criticize or condemn the Palestinian people, only their vile leadership.....and you can't even do that.
It's not that I defend the occupation or settlements. If there could be a genuine peace tomorrow between the 2 sides, I'd be first in line to end the occupation & settlements. That's pro-peace, by the way. Ending the occupation and settlements without a genuine peace b/w the 2 sides is not pro-peace by any stretch, Ken.
1. Netanyahu is a blowhard rightwinger, not my hero. I know saying that makes things easier for you. I don't like assholes on either end of the political spectrum, left or right. I'm liberal, centrist.
2. It's not about militarily crushing bigotry. It's about calling it out, naming and shaming. Make Abbas and Hamas change their ways. But I know you're against all criticism of Palestinian leadership, probably thinking it's bigoted to condemn them.
3. The Palestinian leadership has never made changes in tactics. The war just continued. Incitement increased, terror increased.
Sure, opposing settlements works if the Palestinian leadership is peaceful and means well. Otherwise, that's doomed to fail as it has for 20 years now. Palestinians are treated like human beings by Israel. I'm not sure any other country on the planet would treat Palestinians as well as Israel if Palestinians were at war with any other country, doing to that country what Palestinians have done to Israelis for 70 years now.
I never heard of that guy before but here's what I found rather quickly, which goes to show you don't know what you're talking about, don't care to know, or you know and you're just bullshitting....
http://972mag.com/is-nonviolence-on-the-rise-in-palestine-an-interview-with-dr-mubarak-awad/100248/
What are the facts about Mubarak Awad? He was born in the eastern part of Jerusalem. He was a citizen of Jordan. He was offered Israeli citizenship but refused. He moved to the United States and accepted American citizenery. He came back from time to time on a tourist’s visa. He advocated civil insurrection including destruction of public property as complimenatry to violent resistance. Israel deported the non-resident.
One only has to look at Mr Awad’s writings, such as appeared in the summer issue of Palestine Studies in 1984. He advises Palestinian Arabs to “attempt to block roads, prevent communications, cut electricity, telephone and water lines, and prevent the movement of equipment . . .
Awad also endorsed armed sedition of other Palestinian Arabs against the Jewish state:
“This does not determine the methods open to Palestinians on the outside; nor does it constitute a rejection of the concept of armed struggle. It does not rule out the possibility that the struggle on the inside may turn into an armed struggle at a later stage.“
In a public lecture in accordance with the then PLO charter he refused to even recognize Israel`s right to exist.
He still does not recognize Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state but seeks to return millions of descendants of refugees to flood Israel and end it as a Jewish state.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)die than Israeli's gets nothing but a roll of the eyes from me. They keep starting violence and then whine like babies when the Israeli's fight back, and since their leaders have stolen their money to build tunnels to smuggle weapons, I'm going to blame THEM for not giving their people any security. Their own leaders have never given a shit about them and they never will because destroying Israel is so obviously more important to them. Until the Palestinians get their OWN shit together and realize they will only get what they want by stopping the violence, punishing the perps to commit it (instead of naming streets after them and lionizing their families for raising a martyr), they're going to suffer. I put the responsibility for the wretchedness of their lives on their leaders - which is where it belongs.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: +972 Mag
Israeli academic who fed the story to the press tells the ‘NY Times’ he wanted to undercut the Kremlin’s efforts to host Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.
Israel’s Channel 1 News broadcast a story Wednesday night alleging that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was a KGB agent in Damascus 33 years ago. The story, for obvious reasons, was picked up by local and international outlets within minutes of airing. (Watch the full Hebrew report here.)
In every good spy story, however, there’s always a hidden agenda to be uncovered. Or in this case, a not-so-hidden one.
Speaking in the Channel 1 report, the two Israeli academics who discovered the incriminating document and who fed the story to the press made sure the news item included some circumstantial icing on the cake — that Russia’s current Mideast envoy, the one currently trying to arrange a Netanyahu-Abbas meeting in Moscow, was stationed in Damascus at the same time as Abbas. The insinuated allegation: he was Abbas’ handler.
In a follow-up item in the New York Times, one of the academics, Gideon Remez, dropped all pretenses about the timing of the KGB story’s release, and his and his partner’s motivations.
Read more: http://972mag.com/why-the-abbas-kgb-revelation-came-out-now/121789/
ericson00
(2,707 posts)is gone, because he worked for one of the most evil organizations in history.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)OR of the Israeli government trying to invent some OTHER Palestinian leadership besides Fatah or Hamas, because no other leadership could ever have credibility with the Palestinian people(no significant number of whom would ever settle permanently for anything short of full independence from Israeli rule). A peace agreement has to include the factions who are actually armed.
You're working against any hope of peace by trying to do that.
shira
(30,109 posts)Turn him from a complete asshole into someone willing to compromise & change for the better.
Stop defending this giant POS who only makes life more miserable for Palestinians due to his wanting the conflict to continue forever.
he worked for two of the most evil organizations in history.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It continues to exist because what Israel does to Palestinians is intolerable and immoral, and because forcing Palestinians to be Jordanian citizens wouldn't make anything better for them, since that would mean they would go from living at the mercy of the Israelis to living at the mercy of the Hashemites, the dynasty that will rule Jordan forever, unfortunately).
shira
(30,109 posts)So yes, the PLO is evil.
They'd gladly murder me and my family for the simple reason we're Jews. One-third of my family was wiped out over 70 years ago by sick evil fucks. I don't distinguish between genocidal minded Jew murderers. I have no idea why you do. Maybe you can explain.
And Israel does not make the PA/PLO/Fatah murder Jews. Stop blaming Jews for their murderer's actions. Please, just stop. It's not anyone else's behavior that leads to Jew haters wanting Jews dead. History from the past 3000 years shows that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)If there had been no occupation or at least no day-to-day perpetual collective harassment of ordinary Palestinians (or if the Israelis had left it at guarding the perimeter of the West Bank and the Green Line; if the settlement project opposed by David Ben-Gurion to his dying breath had not been started(ask yourself this: was the abstraction of having the right to live in what no one since Biblical times had called "Judea and Samaria" ever really more important than creating the conditions in which Israel as a state could exist in peace? Has any possible good in the settlements ever been worth the fact that they have always sabotaged any chance for peace between Israelis and Palestinian?); if Begin and Shamir hadn't launched attacks on Palestinian villages that wanted to make peace with Israel, as those men did in the late Seventies and Eighties; If there hadn't been an uninterrupted quarter-century in which the Israeli government anathemized the very idea of a two-state model as "anti-Israel" and virtually everyone who supported that idea as antisemitic), it is extremely unlikely that there still wouldn't be peace and that Fatah would exist that Hamas would ever have emerged as a rival force.
You are deluding yourself every time you repeat the discredited meme that this conflict is defined by "hatred of Jews", and every time you insist(as you effectively do) that Palestinians have no legitimate grievances against the Israeli government. Of course there are some Palestinians who are just driven by hate(as could equally be said of pretty much every Likud voter and every illegal West Bank settler). But that's not the explanation for everything Palestinians do. They DO have valid reasons for being outraged by the Occupation and the siege of Gaza. They DO have good reason to feel that collective punishment is unfair(especially since there is next to nothing the average Palestinian could do to get Fatah or Hamas to change tactics or to cease to exist). And they are fully justified in their bitter resentment of the Israeli argument that (despite the power imbalance, despite the much higher casualty rate, including civilians and innocent children, that Palestinians experience compared to Israelis, despite the endless immiseration the IDF and Netanyahu have subjected Palestinians to on a daily, relentless basis) the "pro-Israeli" side insists that Palestinians are solely responsible for this situation and that Israelis are "the real victims".
If YOU were a Palestinian, you would resent all of that, too.
Fifteen years of the iron fist are a total failure. The hard line has done nothing but make everything worse. Why do you defend what you know has never worked and can never worked? Palestinians have never been coddled...they've never experienced anything from the Israeli government but oppression, restriction, and deliberate impoverishment. If that approach has totally failed so far, why double down on it? And why still cling to the delusion that "peace through victory" is possible? This is not a war that anyone can "win" militarily.
The only thing that can make any difference would be if the government you unquestioningly defend admits that the hard line is a dead loss and actually starts treating Palestinians as human beings for a change.
shira
(30,109 posts)Think about that Ken. It takes a really sick & vile mind to celebrate & reward the murder of children, pregnant mothers, holocaust survivors, etc. And yet here you are only saying you "disapprove" of the Hamas & PLO leadership. People the world over are persecuted & oppressed far more than Palestinians and yet you don't see them trying to blow up kindergartens, running over & stabbing elderly & pregnant people, kids....and then on top of that we don't see their leaders praising and rewarding it! Only a really sick hatred explains this phenomenon unseen anywhere else on the planet.
The PLO was founded in 1964, before the occupation and yet you claim they exist because of Israel's occupation after 1967. Not that this little fact will stop you from repeating the same nonsense in the future, mind you....
The PLO and Hamas exist because a Jewish state exists. That's the reason. Palestinian leaders have been offered their own state multiple times since 1937 and have rejected every offer. Even after the '67 war with the 3 No's at Khartoum. So don't give me this crap that Israel's even half to blame for this conflict continuing.
If you had a say in any of the offers since 1937 (Peel), 1947 Partition, 1967 Khartoum, 2000-01 Camp David & Taba, 2008 Olmert, 2014 Kerry.....would you have rejected every single Israeli offer? Has all this rejection been worth it for Palestinians the past 80 years?
What other desperate people on the planet has leaders who would reject their own state free of oppression? Tibet? The Kurds? Basques? None of those leaders would prefer oppression of their people to having their own free state. You know damned well the one and only reason the Palestinian leadership keeps doing this. I want you to be honest & tell me that reason. I'm waiting. Be honest.
Again, be honest.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And the last fifteen years have proven that it is impossible to change the Palestinian leadership for the better by immiserating the Palestinian people.
This isn't about hatred of Jews. It's about the fact that nothing that happened to the world's Jewish communities(horrific as all of that was and sometimes still is) justified what was done to Palestinians.
And I didn't reject the offers myself. I'm not the Palestinian leadership. It's just that it's not as simple as saying "they rejected the offers".
BTW, you have yet to explain how, if this WAS solely due to antisemitism, the tactics the IDF has used against ordinary Palestinians on a day-to-day basis would cause that particular feeling to go away. You do realize that it's not possible to oppress a people into tolerance, right?
The PLO was formed in 1964 because the Palestinians, in addition to not wanting to ever be ruled by the Israelis, didn't want to be ruled by the Hashemites(and rule by the Hashemites is the ONLY thing that could ever come to Palestinians of your preferred option of an Israel-Jordan confederation, Jordan is going to be ruled by the Hashemites for the rest of eternity and the Palestinians would have no hope of any control over their destiny in that scenario.
shira
(30,109 posts)Name another part of the world where the murder of young and old, pregnant or holocaust survivors....is praised, celebrated, and rewarded. You can't. And why can't you, Ken? What's different in this situation? Don't tell me you don't know. No deflections please...
You think Israel oppresses decent Palestinian people for no other reason than that Israel is "bad"? The antisemitism won't go away because the leadership constantly incites its people, rewards terror....to the point that a majority of Palestinians support terror attacks. Name another situation globally where any people - oppressed or otherwise - supports murdering innocents. If you can't, then why can't you?
That's dumb.
What are the goals within the PLO charter of 1964? Maybe summarize in 1-2 sentences, Ken. Did the PLO want 2 states in 1964? Be honest and tell me what they wanted.
Munich.
etc.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)the positive accomplishments of the KGB that make you so reticent to claim them evil. The vast majority of people dont' have a problem with drawing the conclusions they sucked.