Mondoweiss: A lot of the grief over Shimon Peres is grief over the end of the two-state solution

[Little Tich]

Source: Mondoweiss, by Philip Weiss, September 29, 2016

A lot of the grief over Shimon Peres is grief over the end of the two-state solution. The obsequies for Peres may be helpful to mainstream figures in coming to terms with a passing that is more tragic to them personally, and that so many have denied: the death of the idea of a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel.

And that is good news: because it is a reflection of reality.

Peres died at a time of growing signs that the U.S. establishment is waking up to realities that it has denied for a long time. There will be no Palestinian state. Israel will not withdraw from the occupation. We have entered the era of a binational state, and people should recalibrate their expectations, and their demands on the sovereign, the Israeli government.

This awareness is explicit in eulogies to Peres. Roger Cohen has a very good column today; because he writes sincerely about his love for something that has passed and acknowledges that the dream of an idealistic Israel has died in the eyes of the world:

I began by saying that a void fills the soul. It does, for those like myself who love Israel. But because of the politics of the past two decades, fewer people love Israel today, more people are reflexively hostile. In Peres, a noble idea of the Jewish State clung on against the dismal tide.

And now?

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/09/grieving-mainstream-acknowledges/

[JI7]

1. after reading about the sunni shia and other issues in the middle east

the 2 state solution seems like one of the more possible things that could happen in that area.

[shira]

2. Mondoweiss, the hub of the BDS movement, shits on Peres in 3 other articles...

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/09/shimon-peres-dead/
http://mondoweiss.net/2016/09/ambassador-remembered-palestinians/
http://mondoweiss.net/2016/09/shimon-peres-nuclear/

Same odious Mondoweiss that advocates the destruction of Israel and supports terror attacks on Jews.

Typical BDS holes.

[Little Tich]

3. Now that you've attacked the messenger, why don't you try attacking the message?

I thought the sentiments in the OP correspond pretty well with how I feel about the ramification's of the death of Peres. Is the death of the two-state solution just a leftist mantra? What do you think?

[shira]

4. "Leftist mantra"? The extreme Left opposes a 2 state solution.

The author of this piece (Phil Weiss) opposes a 2 state solution. As for those who actually do support 2 states (a Jewish one next to a Palestinian) Peres or no Peres the prospects are grim so long as the Palestinians continue to violently oppose the existence of a Jewish Israel and deny the rights of the Jewish people to live in peace within their own land.

Here's Fatah TV the day Peres died...

Former Israeli President Shimon Peres demonized on official PA TV on the day of his death
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=763&doc_id=18857

Leftist mantra? The far Left echoes this sentiment against Peres and Rabin. The antizionist Left doesn't want peace between Israel and Palestine. It wants Israel gone.

[Little Tich]

5. Please read the OP again...

What do you think about the arguments in the OP about the demise of the two-state solution? Is it dying, already dead or something else?

[aranthus]

6. The arguments all ignore a fundamental truth.

There can't be a two state solution as long as the Palestinians reject the legitimacy of a Jewish state. It's like saying that the Israelis and Palestinians can't have a salad together when the Israelis won't pour the dressing. It ignores that the Palestinians won't even make the salad. What's really going on here is that even though Leftists such as Mondoweiss (and you) don't really want a true two state solution, they will happily crap on Israel with the false claim that the Israelis are preventing it.

[shira]

7. Demise of which 2 state solution? The one b/w a Jewish state & a Palestinian one?

If that one, you and your BDS buddies oppose the existence of a Jewish state and so do the Palestinian leaders.

That's the problem, not Israel.

So long as Palestinian leaders don't want Israel to exist as a Jewish state, there won't be a peaceful 2 state solution. The Israelis could offer the Palestinians any & everything, but so long as the Palestinians reject a Jewish state, it won't matter. That's not Israel's fault.

[aranthus]

8. Hope for peace died long before Peres

That's why Netanyahu is Prime Minister. The Israelis are pretty sure that the Palestinians will never make peace with a the Jewish state,

[shira]

9. Question for you, Tich. Since the Palestinian Leadership doesn't want peace...

....and will never recognize a Jewish state, what should Israel do?

[Little Tich]

10. It doesn't matter what the Palestinians want - the one-state solution will happen either way...

It's game over, Netanyahu won...

[shira]

11. Nice cop-out. They didn't want peace in Rabin's day either, so what was the excuse then?

How was Israel to blame then?

[Little Tich]

12. Who cares?

What matters now is that the bi-national state is the only option left.

Do you think that there are any other ways to solve the I/P conflict?

[aranthus]

13. Of course there are ways to solve it.

First there is the two state solution, which is not dead despite what you have said.

Second, Israel could annex the West Bank, grant citizenship to the Palestinians living on it, and still be a Jewish state. Let Egypt take Gaza.

Third, Israel could annex the West Bank, make all the Palestinians legal residents, and let Egypt have Gaza.

Fourth, Israel could annex the West Bank, Jordan grants the Palestinians living there Jordanian citizenship, and Egypt gets Gaza. Okay, Jordan is not likely to go for it, but it's still possible.

those are just the first four off the top of my head. I understand how the Left looks to every challenge as a reason to get rid of the Jewish state, but that isn't going to happen.

[Little Tich]

14. None of those options seem plausible to me.

There's one thing that I must ask you though - what kind of incentive would enable Egypt to "take Gaza"? Wouldn't it be much easier (and less expensive) for Egypt to just let Israel keep Gaza?

[aranthus]

15. They are all plausible.

What's not plausible about Israel giving citizenship to the West Bank Arabs and keeping a Jewish state?

As for Egypt, I suppose there could be some quid pro quos given to them. However, if they didn't want to keep Gaza, then the Israelis could just go in, exterminate Hamas, and incorporate that as well. Much harder for the Palestinians (especially Hamas), but it's doable. The only thing that won't happen is the Jews giving up their state.

[Little Tich]

16. So, basically a bi-national state without civil rights for Palestinians then...

It didn't work for South Africa, so why do you think it would work for Israel?

[aranthus]

17. Now you're falling back on Leftist dogma and propaganda.

That isn't argument. If the Palestinians are citizens of Israel, then by definition they will have civil rights, just as current Arab citizens of Israel have civil rights. The majority culture will still be Jewish, just as the majority culture in France is French, in Japan it's Japanese, and the same in any other liberal democratic country.

[Little Tich]

18. So, the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem get Israeli citizenship.

While that's fine with me, there's just one final, small matter - will they get equal civil rights, or will they have limited civil rights just like non-Jewish Israelis currently have? It's not really that important, but you yourself refer to Israel as a liberal democracy, and if Israel ever became a liberal democracy, all Israelis would have equal civil rights...

[aranthus]

19. Is this based on that list of discriminatory laws that you ahve already been shown is a lie?

Because that doesn't establish a lack of civil rights.

[Little Tich]

20. Partially based on that list, yes.

However, I'm not arguing that non-Jewish Israelis have no civil rights, I'm arguing that they have unequal rights. A fair analogy would be the American South during the Jim Crow era. Unfortunately, non-Jewish Israelis can't appeal to any constitution for equal civil rights, though.

But the question remains: - Do the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem get Israeli citizenship or not in your scenario?

[aranthus]

21. There are several scenarios.

The Palestinians could get Israeli citizenship or Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship. Most likely Israeli. Of course, that's
assuming that they are prepared to live peacefully with the Jewish state and that a separate Palestinian state is not possible. Neither of those propositions is currently true.

[Little Tich]

22. any solution to the I/P conflict where neither side gets shafted is fine with me. n/t

[shira]

23. Tich's only evidence that Israel is Jim Crow is Adalah's list of lies...

Tich can't name even 1 law that demonstrates non-Jews in Israel have unequal rights.

But apparently it's important to rant incessantly 24-7-365 against Jews who must be oppressing someone today somewhere in the world.