Egypt's president asserts authority over army

[shaayecanaan]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/08/201281215511142445.html

The Egyptian president has ordered the powerful head of the army and defence minister, Field Marshal Hussein Tantawi, and several senior generals into retirement and cancelled constitutional amendments issued by the military restricting presidential powers.

Mohamed Morsi announced through a spokesman on Sunday the dismissal of Tantawi and his appointment as a presidential adviser.

According to state television, Abdul-Fatah al-Sessi would replace Tantawi as defence minister and the general commander of the army.

Morsi also sent into retirement the chief of army staff, General Sami Anan, and appointed him as a presidential adviser.

Lieutenant-General Sidki Sayed Ahmed was named as Anan's replacement.

Morsi further appointed a senior judge, Mahmoud Mekki, as vice-president. All decisions are effective immediately.

Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh, reporting from Cairo, said that would be no exaggeration to say that no one saw this one coming.

"After the June 5 attack on a border patrol left 16 soldiers dead, the country’s leadership - both civilian and in uniform - was peculiarly quiet," she said.

"Late and terse statements did not quench the public’s thirst for answers.

"But no one thought the price would extend to the head of the military and his deputy."

A positive development, one would say, from the supposedly extremist Muslim government that is going to start cutting people's hands off...any day now, I'm sure.

[holdencaufield]

1. A showdown between Morsi...

... and the military? This should be fun to watch.

[azurnoir]

2. says he sacked the head of intelligence too

couldn't be like the military was trying to under cut the man who supplanted them, naw no way

oh and I read something about the US providing Egypt aid for more security too

[oberliner]

3. Abdul-Fatah al-Sessi is the defender of "virginity tests" for female protesters

Here's some info on the man Morsi has named as defense minister and commander of the army:

On Sunday 11 March, 2012, the military court acquitted the army doctor, Ahmed Adel, of charges of “public obscenity” in relation to allegations that he conducted “virginity tests” on 7 protesters on 9 March 2011. On 9 March 2011, military forces stormed Tahir Square and arrested 17 women protesters. They transported them to the Egyptian museum where they were detained, given electric shocks and severely beaten. 7 of them, including Samira Ibrahim, claim that they were forced to undergo “virginity tests” conducted by Adel. Several members of the military, including General Abdel Fattah Al Sisi, subsequently publicly admitted the conduct of virginity tests, justifying their use as a means to protect the army from allegations of rape by detainees. Ibrahim and other victims lodged legal complaints. In December 2011, the State Council Court ruled in favor of Ibrahim and banned the use of such tests.

http://www.euromedrights.org/en/news-en/member-releases/11448.html

I would image that experience for those women was probably almost as unpleasant as having one's hands cut off.

[holdencaufield]

4. This isn't a story...

... a STORY is a handful of haredi wearing beer-googles.

[azurnoir]

6. No that's not the story

the story is how fabulous an idea that is

[azurnoir]

5. it's all different now that Hosni is gone because we know that Human Rights abuse never happened

when he was in power

but are the virginity still taking place? or have they been stopped? Perhaps he shouldf have gotten 45 days?

[oberliner]

7. Not really sure what you are trying to say here

Last edited Mon Aug 13, 2012, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)

My point is that this person that was appointed to this high-ranking position by Morsi is the same one who approved of "virginity tests" for female protesters.

[azurnoir]

8. yes and you added that a virginity test was almost as unpleasant as having ones hands amputated

something I find quite questionable or perhaps melodramatic while I am quite sure that virginity tests are unpleasant perhaps even traumatic they do not approach IMO having ones hands amputated by force

[King_David]

9. ' virginity tests are unpleasant '

Rape is 'unpleasant'

[azurnoir]

11. yep keep on trying but next time try not to paraphrase

it tends to damage your credibility

[King_David]

20. That would be called minimizing a rape

By rapists .

[azurnoir]

23. yes I would agree your paraphrase did attempt to minimize

if not rape at least what I really said but one again don't stop now.......what I find rather disturbing is an attempt to water down the term rape to fit a political purpose would you say that the forced body searches on female Palestinians by IDF are rape? under your own claims they would indeed fit

[King_David]

24. I find your argument here bizarre nt

[holdencaufield]

10. Tell that...

... to the women who were raped.

[azurnoir]

12. they were subjected to a medical exam which is different from rape

Last edited Mon Aug 13, 2012, 11:09 PM - Edit history (1)

which is forced sex something a bit different, trust me as a women I do know and from experience

[holdencaufield]

13. A forced vaginal exam...

... isn't aggravated sexual battery?

I know Morsi is closing down newspapers in Egypt -- but, you might want to see if he's hiring writers for the ones he allows to stay open. I think he'd agree with me that you have what it takes.

[azurnoir]

14. if indeed these did occur then they may have been called sexual battery

of a sort and the strange thing is that if they were physically forced then the exams themselves would have obliterated the evidence of 'virginity'

[shaayecanaan]

15. Thats not quite right...

al-Sessi gave an interview in which he admitted that virginity tests were carried out by the military. He wasnt the one who had them carried out, nor was he the person that "approved" them.

I suppose he deserves some credit for being one of the few military figures who were actually prepared to admit that the tests were done, unlike the rest of the military who simply lied and denied, although there is no doubt that the treatment of these protesters was abhorrent, as was his defence of the practice. Virginity tests are not unknown elsewhere - in the UK visa applicants had to undergo them until 1979 - but they are humiliating and degrading for the women involved.

The virginity tests have since been banned by a civilian court in Egypt, which is another good sign. Unfortunately the doctor that conducted the tests was tried in a military court and acquitted.

al-Sessi was selected, I imagine, for his reformist credentials. He argued strongly for a soft touch against the demonstrators in Tahrir Square.

On the whole, I trust that you would welcome this assertion of civilian power against the Army, particularly if you are concerned for the fates of people that find themselves in military detention.

[oberliner]

17. It is precisely right

Nowhere did I say that he carried them out, just that he justified and approved of them taking place.

Might have been nice for Morsi to appoint someone to this powerful position of leadership who, instead, spoke out strongly against "virginity tests" for female protesters.

I guess that's too much to expect from this Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated government that I've read is so reasonable, mainstream, and middle-of-the-road.

[shaayecanaan]

18. "approved them" vs "approved of them"

In any event you seem to be tacitly accepting my argument. I have long ceased to expect any semblance of outright honesty on this board.

al-Sessi is not a member of the Brotherhood. Most of the Brotherhood have quite strong views against prisoner abuse, given that they spent long stretches being tortured in detention themselves.

Morsi is in something of a double bind. If he appoints a wide-eyed innocent without any power base to the defence post then he is a fool. If he appoints a civilian from within his own party then your right-wing friends will scream that he has appointed a jihadist*. If he appoints someone with connections to the old regime then he is an apologist for torture and prisoner abuse.

In this case, he chose to appoint a military figure that was seen as being more anti-Mubarak than most. It was probably the choice that he had to make.

[oberliner]

19. Thanks - I'll correct that

Missed word - like some of my other friends on this board, I can be sloppy sometimes.

In any event, I am not sure what argument you are making that I am accepting. I am trying to do nothing but be completely honest on this board (as in my life).

Again, nowhere did I claim that he was a member of the Brotherhood. Just that Morsi is. We agree on that, right? One would think, especially, if the Brotherhood has "strong views against prisoner abuse" then they could have done something bolder in that regard.

Of course, he is in a bind. Anyone who is the first elected official in the history of a particular country faces a lot of challenges. That ought not to excuse this decision, and any others, that fly in the face of basic human rights.

For some reason, you seem to be suggesting (by your initial post on the subject) that anything short of cutting off people's arms is some sort of triumph of good governance.

I would very much appreciate if you can be honest in terms of your assessment of this new government in Egypt. Exactly what standard of basic human rights are you intending to hold them to? How much slack do they get in this regard?

An election, as you no doubt are aware, does not necessarily a liberal democracy make. I would be very pleased if this government turns out to be a shining light of progressive values in the region and for the world.

My argument is that singling out this selection as something positive suggests a very low bar. I would hope that you would expect it to be set somewhat higher than that, in spite of the challenges and obstacles.

Many many people risked and in some cases sacrificed their life for democracy in Egypt. Let's not sell their dream short.

[shaayecanaan]

21. Good

My argument is that singling out this selection as something positive suggests a very low bar.

I suspect that anything short of creating Denmark on the shores of the Mediterranean you would seek to construe as a very low bar. But certainly people better informed than you and I have seen the development as positive, or at least promising:-

eg http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/08/201281310297153968.html

For some reason, you seem to be suggesting (by your initial post on the subject) that anything short of cutting off people's arms is some sort of triumph of good governance.

Well, certainly the argument made by many of your colleagues was that the election of this government would swiftly lead to the imposition of sharia law. Clearly that has not happened. Normally, you would think that would reflect adversely on the credibility of people making such an argument.

I would very much appreciate if you can be honest in terms of your assessment of this new government in Egypt. Exactly what standard of basic human rights are you intending to hold them to? How much slack do they get in this regard?

Their immediate political priority should be to bring the military under control. I have no doubt that they have every desire of doing so, the Brotherhood have always chafed under military rule more than most. But this will be difficult, particularly in denuding the Army of the substantial number of assets that it managed to acquire under the old regime.

The other priority of course is the constitution. The main requirements are the establishment of an supreme independent and civilian judiciary, and the conduct of regular elections. I think the liberals in Egypt are misguided in arguing for an elaborate system of checks and balances as per the American example. If anything democracy in America is more broken than anywhere else in the Western world.

[bemildred]

26. "If anything democracy in America is more broken than anywhere else in the Western world."

Yep, we taught the World everything there is to know about fake democracy. We are the original experts.

[aranthus]

16. A positive development? Maybe.

Removing the Mubarak cronies is on its face a good thing. But it also means that Morsi is consolidating power. What will he do if he doesn't have to worry about the military? Your sneering dismissal of those who question what the Muslim Brotherhood will do to Egypt is still on shaky legs.

[azurnoir]

22. Ynet had an 'interesting' take on this

Last edited Mon Aug 13, 2012, 11:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Danger to Israel-Egypt ties

The two strongest people in Egypt, defense minister Gen. Hussein Tantawi and chief of staff Sami Enan, had no idea they were about to be ousted. The subsequent reports about their "retirement" and appointment as "advisors" to the president were aimed at preserving their dignity and keeping them calm so they would not cause any damage in the future.

As soon as Tantawi authorized the dismissal of intelligence chief Muwafi in the aftermath of the deadly terror attack in Sinai, he sealed his own fate. That was just the appetizer. When the Muslim Brotherhood saw that Muwafi's dismissal passed without a response from the military, it moved on to the main course – the "night of the long knives."

But in this case, Morsi did not need any knives. He annulled the constitutional amendments that had granted the army far reaching powers over the country and "purged" the senior military leadership, thus beginning the process of removing Mubarak's men from all government institutions and replacing them with Muslim Brotherhood members or officials who are loyal to him.
......................................................................................

The damage caused to Egypt's pro-West and secular military may eventually jeopardize the peace treaty with Israel. In the meantime, when Morsi was asked what his three main goals were, he replied: Economy, economy, economy. This answer indicates that a significant revision of the peace accord is not likely, but the processes in Egypt are so dynamic, fast and unexpected, that it is difficult to predict what the relationship between Israel and Egypt will seem like in a few months' time.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4268091,00.html

there is also some stuff in the article about this being a slap in the face to Obama......

[bemildred]

25. "Economy, economy, economy. "

Yep.