The demographic success of the Israeli settlements

[shaayecanaan]

Interesting infographic from al-Jazeera, although I'm not sure what the secular stick figures are wearing on their heads



http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/12/2012124135935526146.html

[King_David]

1. The ultra Orthodox

Will not really care if they living in Israel or Palestine.

They can just stay there when the settlements are evacuated.

But it has been said that no Jew can remain in Palestine.

[delrem]

2. That makes no sense.

"The ultra Orthodox will not really care if they living in Israel or Palestine."
Good for them. I'm totally supportive of any benign spiritual community. Without them the world would be unbearably impoverished.

"They can just stay there when the settlements are evacuated."
If they stay there, how can the settlements be evacuated? Are you saying that for some reason they just don't count? Then who does count?

"But it has been said that no Jew can remain in Palestine."
Who says this, besides some internet persona going by "King_David", who also suggests that ultra Orthodox Jews aren't Jews?

[shaayecanaan]

3. Allow me...

What he is saying is that many ultra-orthodox would potentially be amenable to remaining in the West Bank once it passes to Palestinian hands, given that they have no affinity for any secular state whether it be Israel or Palestine. Of course, in reality I doubt that many of them would, they would probably lose their government benefits for a start.

The Palestinians have been wary of this suggestion, largely because it is not just an issue of the settlers, but of the disproportionately large infrastructure, land holdings, water allowances, etc that they currently enjoy, and would probably be seeking to retain at the expense of ordinary Palestinians were they ever to stay on after the occupation ends.

The last Palestinian statement on the topic indicated that they would be insisting that the settlers leave in the first instance, but that the Palestinians would be amenable to Israelis migrating to Palestine through legitimate avenues in the future.

[King_David]

5. Thanks nt

[geek tragedy]

10. They would have to pay taxes to a Palestinian government, swear allegiance

to a Palestinian state, face getting their homes bulldozed by a Palestinian government (irony is a bitch) . . .

[shaayecanaan]

15. They refuse to swear allegiance to any state...

one reason that the loyalty oath legislation in Israel was never passed was that it would be difficult to require Arabs to swear allegiance but not ultra-orthodox Jews.

[King_David]

4. Read up on all those points

Do a little research.

Its all Judaism and Israel/Palestine 101.

[delrem]

7. I'm not the one arguing that ultra-orthodox Jews aren't Jews. nt

[King_David]

11. Huh

Where'd you get that nonsense shtooyot from?
WTF you talking about????

[delrem]

14. You're unaware of what you wrote?? nt

[King_David]

16. Please point to where I wrote what

YOU claimed I wrote ...

Link it up ...

This should be good .

[delrem]

17. You can't parse your own sentences????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=24757

"The ultra Orthodox will not really care if they living in Israel or Palestine.
They can just stay there when the settlements are evacuated.
But it has been said that no Jew can remain in Palestine."

[King_David]

18. WTF ? So how how does that "translate"

into " I'm not the one arguing that ultra-orthodox Jews aren't Jews" ?????

I do not know WTF your talking about.

I am completely at a loss here.

That post , interpretation , comprehension makes absolutely no sense to me.

You may has well asked me " why did you say it's snowing today ?.. Z" It makes more sense...

(PS : if any other poster understands what he/she said please jump in and help him explain it to me... If I'm wrong ill be the 1st to apologize )

[delrem]

19. you show that common sense can't penetrate the hasbara bubble.

You have nothing to apologize for. You're unable to make connections between the sentences you write, even when the second sentence immediately follows the first. That's a simple fact and isn't something to apologize for - but it's something people might take into account when reading your posts.

I do notice, though, that the hasbara astroturf you indulge in is pretty thick, and uniform from voice of hasbara to another. Perhaps one of your fellows in hasbara can reassure you that there's no connection between "they [the ultra orthodox Jews] can just stay there..." and " no Jew can remain"

In any event, I don't think the two of us will ever get along

[King_David]

20. Not trying to get along,

I have no idea what your "interpretation " of what I said actually means...

I also have no idea what your explanation means .

Lets get it straight ..

I said "The ultra Orthodox
Will not really care if they living in Israel or Palestine. "

And from this , you understood : that I was
"arguing that ultra-orthodox Jews aren't Jews"?

[King_David]

21. Maybe you need read shaayecanaan's post 3

To get a good understanding of what we talking about here...

[delrem]

22. #3 is intelligible, #1 is not.

#3 contains a lot of good information and helps my understanding. The sense of #1 breaks down in the way I showed, and that you prefer not to acknowledge. Perhaps shaayecanaan has spent a lot of time trying to understand you, so can translate #1 into #3 in a way that satisfies you - but I'm new here and I don't see the passage 1->3, and it's not because I need to take I/P 101.

I'll be honest, my reading is that you have a chip on your shoulder, that you don't want even a small portion of Jewish settlers to make peace with the general peoples of the land they inhabit, to truly settle the land and be as equals with the whole population. Yet that's the only way that peace can happen. There has to be a change from settlement by force, which is the status quo but is intrinsically antagonistic, to integration by common consent. My reading is that you don't think that is possible - whereas I think it not only has to be possible for peace to be possible, but it is possible. But maybe not on the terms you demand.

--------------------------
I don't have a bone to pick in this forever I/P war. I'm not Jewish, or Arab, or anything close in sectarian terms - closest I can categorize is that I'm an atheist mongrel. Responding to your other post, your other question, apparently you think I'm American. Caught between the US Tweedledum/Tweedledee corporate parties, where one is "left" and the other is "right" and the pundits play with the term "moderate". I confess, I don't have a clue what your corporate media is talking about when it says that this politician is "moderate" (so somehow good) and this other is "extreme L or R" (and so a wacko) - but I'm convinced that it's a game of mirrors designed to not only manipulate the population while saying nothing but also to circumscribe and control the political vocabulary. It's a formula. I'm Canadian, and I both vote for and at least at election times work for the NDP, which is a political party that needs to change considerably to come close to satisfying me. It never will, but that's in the nature of political parties. My support for the NDP is expedient, and I'm not *bound* to toe some party line.

So please, don't suggest to me that I should be a "Dem" who asserts that "Dem is Left" to be heard at democratic underground. There are a lot like me who post here.

[King_David]

23. From this exchange, It's clear you got a lot to learn about the IP

It's the subtle details your clearly missing here... Re-read post 3 ... Because by your answers this thread clearly went over your head.

(And Thomas Mulclair the new leader of the NDP is a strong friend of Israel who has managed to silence that idiot Libby Davis and her problem with Jews and Israel .. Svend Robinson , that other rabid anti -Zionist was caught stealing and shoplifting and is gone , I have no "beef" with the NDP .. )

[delrem]

24. You are the farthest thing from "subtle".

[geek tragedy]

9. One day all Jews will live in Palestine.

There is no longer a possibility of a separate Israel and Palestine. There will be one state, and Jews will be once again a minority.

[King_David]

12. Nostradamus got it wrong

So now it's amateur hour for everyone ?

[geek tragedy]

13. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of demographics, history and math.

No stomach amongst Israeli Jews for dismantling settlements. None.

Continued official policy of settlement expansion along with unofficial policy of permitting illegal outposts to invade Palestinian areas.

No stomach amongst Israeli Jews for an actual Palestinian state as opposed to a series of Bantustans with a fake state label slapped on them.

An Israeli electorate that is increasingly radicalized with each successive election cycle due to demographics (settlers and ultra-orthodox and Arab-hating bigots reproducing much faster than the sane people there).

An intransigent Israeli PM whose contempt for the peace process is only surpassed by his contempt for President Obama is going to win a crushing electoral victory next year.


Bibi Netanyahu is a moderate by Israeli standards. Ariel Sharon's legacy party is now the left in Israel.

[Scootaloo]

25. Nostradamus didn't get ANYTHING wrong...

Because he never actually predicted anything.

"Lo as the sparrow flies, in the day of thunder
shall arise a man of three crowns and his name is JOEL.
So shall smote be the kingdom of the apple"

See, anyone can do this shit

Nostrafuckingdamus... What a hoot.

[oberliner]

6. Demographic problem in reverse

Once the numbers balance out - maybe the one-state solution would give the Ultra-Orthodox what they want (and probably result in an all-out war).

[azurnoir]

8. "all it takes is one generation" (settler) Girls at War

How a group of teenage believers could reshape the Israeli-Palestinian struggle

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/77378/girls-at-war