Who Really Cares About the Palestinians?

[shira]

For decades there has been an international drumbeat of concern for the Palestinians, their victimhood, their welfare and their human rights. But how much does the world really care about the Palestinians? We are learning now they don’t care at all as Assad slaughters them in Syria.

Where are the front-page headlines? Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department? Where are the sponsors of flotillas to bring aid to the refugees? Where are the campus protests? Where are the Christian organizations? Where are the peace groups? Where are the pro-Palestinian organizations?

The answer is they are all silent. Just two months ago, 180 countries voted in favor of Palestinian statehood at the UN, but they have not adopted a resolution condemning the brutal slaughter of Palestinians by Syria. Imagine if Israel were responsible for what is happening to the Palestinians. The UN would have acted immediately and all the groups mentioned above would be in an uproar.

How do we explain the difference? The answer lies in a simple but inconvenient truth — no one really cares about the Palestinians – unless Jews are involved.

more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/who-really-cares-about-the-palestinians/

[JoDog]

1. Good points, true points, but

I hope you remembered to wear a firefighter's gear for all the flaming that is about to start.

[shira]

2. They can flame on in denial all they wish. Let's see them dispute the argument. n/t

[azurnoir]

3. Syrian leaders should face justice at ICC, UN says

Syrian leaders should be brought before the international criminal court (ICC) to face justice for murder and torture, UN investigators urged on Monday as the EU renewed its blanket arms embargo on both sides in Syria's bloody conflict.

....................................

Carla del Ponte, former chief prosecutor for the international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, who is working on a rolling UN inquiry into Syria, said high-level perpetrators had been identified and insisted the Hague court should act.

.....................................

Earlier calls to prosecute senior Syrians at the ICC have not been pursued because that would require the support of all five permanent members of the UN security council. But the five remain split between the US, Britain and France on the one hand – which are all calling on President Bashar al-Assad to go – and Russia and China, which have blocked any attempts to punish Damascus.

The UN inquiry, led by Paulo Pinheiro of Brazil, has been tracing the chain of command to establish criminal responsibility. The UN says nearly 70,000 people have been killed since March 2011.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/18/syria-murder-torture-charges-icc

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

4. I find it curious that some would suggest that nobody cares for the Palestinians

due to the Syrian conflict when the Palestinians aren't the only ones suffering.

Some could claim that nobody cares about the Syrian revolutionaries being killed, but that wouldn't be accurate.

Some could claim that nobody cares about the Syrian men and women being killed, but that wouldn't be accurate.

Some could claim that nobody cares about the Syrian children being killed, but that wouldn't be accurate.

And some could claim that nobody cares about the others caught up in the war being killed, but that wouldn't be accurate.


I'm surprised that some would use this horrible conflict, where so many men women and children have died, for their own jaded motives to set up some kind of high horse to guilt, shame and to stifle dialog. The problem is that the blog that this twaddle births from is not only wrong in substance, but I imagine that it is a naked attempt to overcloud Israel's human rights abuses with regard to the Palestinians with the Syrian conflict: to justify what it does in the West Bank while daring anybody to speak up about it. The problem is that regardless of conflicts Israel is still in the error, with regards to the Palestinians, and has been for decades. You can't erase that with a blog post or canned outrage while Israel engages in human rights abuses as well.

Conceivably there are some who believe that if they can just guilt enough individuals into believing that nobody cares for the Palestinians then perhaps that will give them just enough time to continue to ramp up housing in illegal settlements, appropriate just a little more land, intimidate or run off just a few more farmers that are already scrapping by, burn down a few more olive groves and the like. And when these individuals realize that they were mislead and speak up against that? What new contrived guilt will be laid at their feet to silence them further?

Who knows. The world is full of questionable people with questionable motives. Some write blogs while some read them.


Addendum: To say that nobody cares about the Palestinians until Jews are involved is not only disingenuous and a horrendous example of skulduggery, but it is also inherently lazy in any attempt to even present the truth equally.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324907204578185712806240882.html

The U.S. State Department (you know, the ones that don't care) on Monday said it was concerned about the situation of Palestinian refugees in Syria and called the latest attacks on Yarmouk "a significant and alarming escalation of the conflict in Syria." UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, said there were "waves of significant displacement as Yarmouk residents, including UNRWA staff and their families, scramble to seek safety as the armed conflict persists."

"The Agency has advocated to maintain the neutrality of the 525,000 Palestine refugees in Syria and not implicate them in the conflict," it said in a statement Sunday, after the air strikes. "The horrible events of today raise serious questions about the stability and protection of the Palestine refugees in Syria."

Looks like the UN cares as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/world/middleeast/syria-warns-palestinians-not-to-aid-rebels-as-camp-residents-flee.html?_r=0

Martin Nesirky, a spokesman for Mr. Ban at the United Nations, confirmed that the secretary general had spoken with the Syrian foreign minister to express concern “about the escalation of violence in recent days, and very specifically the incident yesterday in which a Palestinian refugee camp, Yarmouk, right near Damascus, came under attack.”

The United States also expressed concern. Victoria Nuland, a State Department spokeswoman, said the aerial bombardment of Yarmouk constituted “a significant and alarming escalation of the conflict in Syria.”


The above wasn't a difficult search, but I guess that some are too busy reading blog posts to lift a finger to be bothered to find the truth.

[oberliner]

6. "too busy reading blog posts to lift a finger to be bothered to find the truth"

That is one of the more ironic comments you've made recently.

[shira]

8. Imagine the silence WRT all these dead Palestinians in Syria had they died at the hands of Israel

Presumably, the "world" would be just as silent, wouldn't they?

[oberliner]

10. Some excuses from the 972mag-ers

'Why don't you write about Syria?'

http://972mag.com/why-dont-you-write-about-syria/65796/

[shira]

17. From your article, Noam Sheizaf of 972 agrees with the OP above...

At the same time, I am also surprised by the relative indifference for the plight of Palestinian refugees in the civil war by those supporting their cause on other fronts. Where are the mass protests against the brutal, inhuman policy of the Jordanian government, which lets Syrian refugees in but sends the Palestinians back?

And he's the BOSS at +972.

Writer Noam Sheizaf, +972 chief executive officer and site manager as of 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2B972_Magazine

[oberliner]

39. Hard to really understand where he is coming from there

But I am curious what your take is on that site in general.

[shira]

43. The site in general....

...is host to articles written mostly by useful idiots. Occassionally, you see something like what Sheizaf just wrote about the sanctimony of most pro-Palestinian advocates (or Gurvitz vs. the International Left like Abunimah, Blumenthal). You'll see honesty you don't get from the hard boiled Israel haters.

[oberliner]

143. I do not entirely agree

I would not say that the hallmark of the site is honesty by any stretch.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

28. You should have posted a little of what Noam Sheizaf had written.

Here's some.

A rather funny – or tragic, depending on what you think – example was when Likud MK Ophir Akunis attacked the Israeli organization Physicians for Human Rights for criticizing the Israeli government “but saying nothing about Syria.” Only that PHR did talk about Syria – several times. Akunis, who blocked the Facebook commenters who tried to state this fact on his page, wasn’t really interested in the Syrians, but in the delegitimization of the struggle for the rights of Palestinians under Israeli control.

[shira]

31. I did. And he agrees with the OP, which is beyond factual dispute....

...proving once again that pro-Palestinian advocacy has little, if anything to do, with Palestinian human rights.

[azurnoir]

35. lol

A rather funny – or tragic, depending on what you think – example was when Likud MK Ophir Akunis attacked the Israeli organization Physicians for Human Rights for criticizing the Israeli government “but saying nothing about Syria.” Only that PHR did talk about Syria – several times. Akunis, who blocked the Facebook commenters who tried to state this fact on his page, wasn’t really interested in the Syrians, but in the delegitimization of the struggle for the rights of Palestinians under Israeli control.

The same goes for many other such comments. And when one does write about the Palestinians who are being killed in Syria, the responses are usually along the lines of “what makes the Palestinians so special? write about the rest of the population!” and so on. At the same time, I am also surprised by the relative indifference for the plight of Palestinian refugees in the civil war by those supporting their cause on other fronts. Where are the mass protests against the brutal, inhuman policy of the Jordanian government, which lets Syrian refugees in but sends the Palestinians back?

Naturally, I think Israel should be the first to help Palestinian refugees in trouble, for obvious historical reasons. With the current political trends here, such hopes are beyond science fiction, and even an honest debate is impossible.

if memory serves the last popular fall back conflict was Darfur which dried up as a comparative cause and as the true amount of concern is coming to light especially considering the dead silence about how Israel treats the refugees from that conflict (know as infiltrators to Israelis via government officials and media)
As to Syria while you condemn Jordan who BTW is only allowing Syrian refugees from Syria in and not all of those necessarily , why are they not being allowed into the West Bank where Israel has control over 60% of the land including all border crossings? oops we're not supposed to notice that are we?

[shira]

36. LOL @ you guys trying so hard to distract with red herrings. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. Translation.

Azurnoir asked Shira a simple question, and it is too hard for her to answer honestly.

[shira]

61. No dissembling "look over there" red herrings, please. Why not just admit the OP is correct....

...and attempt to provide reasons for it?

Don't pretend it's not there or that it's not true.

======

I'll gladly answer questions that will help you to derail the thread, but first let's stick to the OP.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. Translation.

RDO points out that Azurnoir asked Shira a simple question, and it is too hard for her to answer honestly.

[shira]

71. Translation. You stick to the topic first before attempting to derail it. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. Translation.

RDO has pointed out twice that Azurnoir asked Shira a simple question, and it is too hard for her to answer honestly.

[shira]

75. As I wrote, I'll answer anything once you guys decide to debate the actual OP. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

84. Azurnoir's question still stands, and this is the third time you have run away from it.

[shira]

86. Why should I answer red herrings and go off-track before discussing the subject at hand? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

95. Well, you have admitted that you *cherry pick so I guess that standing

up to hard questions doesn't enter into your worldview? Perhaps I am wrong.

Anything that you don't want to answer becomes a red herring? Really?

How embarrassing for you.

*"Also, I didn't know I had to agree with everything in an article in order to pull some truths out of it."
-Shira

[shira]

96. I quoted from someone you respect who agrees with the OP....

Are you denying Sheizaf makes the very same argument as the OP?

=======

Lastly, am I to understand that every OP-ED you post you agree with 100%?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

98. Why dance away from the fact that you cherry pick?

Also your words. "I quoted from someone you respect."

I post articles in the I/P form relevant to the I/P forum. I just don't go looking for one sentence to justify what is happening or not happening.

Conversely, I would expect one to at least believe in more than 10 percent, or a few words, of an article before posting it...especially when you want to build a case around it.

BTW: I'm not sure I have ever said who I respect so you shouldn't be so fast as to jump to conclusions.


"Lastly, am I to understand that every OP-ED you post you agree with 100%?"

Well, in your case we now know that is not important now, and that makes your position even more dubious.

[shira]

103. Keep dancing, deflecting, and failing. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

105. I'll leave that to you since you are a master at it.

[shira]

107. If it makes you feel better, you go on believing that. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

114. It is not a matter of belief...or if, Shira. You're just good at it.

Take a bow.

[shira]

119. You've been dancing and avoiding throughout the whole thread. Tell you what....

Let's end this charade once and for all.

If you think I'm avoiding anything, just ask and I'll answer whatever you throw at me. You'll need to do the same and answer me. Are you up to it or will you duck out with some lame excuse? This will be a keeper for future discussions just in case, btw...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

120. Why bother? You never answer. You just move the goalposts.

There is no charade here on my part, Shira. Anybody who has ever read my posts with regard to Palestine and Israel would know that.

If the charade comes from anyplace then you need to look inward.

Just in this thread alone you have started with an OP that you have had to backtrack from. And by backtrack I mean sidestep.
The OP claimed nobody cares. Not the UN. Not the State Department. Nobody.

You were proven wrong.

Here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post3

And here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post4

And Here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post35

So what is your response?
You ignore the proof then move the goalposts.

You are caught red-handed cherry picking to suit your twisted purpose, and when it is pointed out you ignore it and move the goalposts.

Here. (bottom)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post73

It is pointed out to you here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post79

You again ignore it here and move the goalposts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post80


If anything I have learned about you shira is that you are one of the least trustworthy DUers to try and enter into any dialog with.


You want to end your charade then go do it. Don't pretend to to it. Just go do it.

[shira]

123. Let's remember that once again you're deciding to avoid questions

And not only that, you make crap up like this....

Just in this thread alone you have started with an OP that you have had to backtrack from. And by backtrack I mean sidestep.
The OP claimed nobody cares. Not the UN. Not the State Department. Nobody.

You were proven wrong.

The OP claimed no one cares about Palestinians. Whether in Syria or elsewhere. The OP is 100% correct. It wasn't about whether anyone cared about Syria (which is what you and your lot tried showing) but whether your lot cares about Palestinians either in Syria or elsewhere. Here you are shifting the goalposts and you have the audacity to point the finger at me?

Fail.

Let's remember this one....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. Did you also agree with what he wrote from the same article that

was posted in addition to you little snippit?

Yes, No, or will I be met with silence?

[shira]

63. No, I don't agree with everything else he wrote in that article...

The point being that Sheizaf and those similar to him always try passing themselves off as uber- sensitive defenders of human rights when they are not. Syria should get at least as much attention as Israel, but it doesn't and that doesn't appear to phase such people in the least.

As I wrote below, the UN devoted more time to the Mavi Marmara incident in 2010 than it has to Syria since 2011 and more than 70K lives later. No mass rallies, flotillas, etc.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. Ah, a little grain of truth, or cherry, come forth.

The greater point that

As I wrote below, the UN devoted more time to the Mavi Marmara incident in 2010 than it has to Syria since 2011 and more than 70K lives later. No mass rallies, flotillas, etc.

That's not what you purported to explain with the article that you posted. Right?

"Where are the front-page headlines? Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department?
The answer is they are all silent."

Again, both azurnoir and I posted that the UN and State Department were not silent, contrary to the blog post you pasted.

And now you want to backtrack with that the UN spent more time on the Mavi Marmara incident than with Syria which doesn't exactly sound like they have not spent any time on Syria.

I believe that your argument is getting tangled. Which one is it? Do you adamantly agree with your cut and paste that "The answer is they are all silent" or that they haven't spent enough time covering Syria?

Also, doesn't it seem a little disingenuous of you to post to an article where you only agree with one small paragraph while you "don't agree with everything else he wrote?"

That's one bitter cherry.

I would lend a hand in helping you untie your tangle of knots, but I'll just watch you twist your way free.

[shira]

73. The OP is correct about the UN, which relative to Israel is silent....

No, they're not 100% silent on Syria and they shouldn't be. But they're in no way as animated about 70,000 lives lost as they've been in the past about Israeli actions that have paled in comparison.

Not even close. And that's the point.

You guys are stuck on semantics.



So fine, if you want to say that the OP should have stated explicitly that relative to Israeli violations of Palestinian human rights the UN is silent WRT Syria, then you have something. Of course I believe that's exactly what's implied in the OP.

===========

Also, I didn't know I had to agree with everything in an article in order to pull some truths out of it. So now that you know the CEO of your favorite online mag. believes folks like yourselves are hypocrites, are you all done posting articles from his website? Follow your logic...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

79. Sigh, more relativistic cherry picking from you, really?

The OP is correct about the UN, which relative to Israel is silent....

No, they're not 100% silent on Syria and they shouldn't be. But they're in no way as animated about 70,000 lives lost as they've been in the past about Israeli actions that have paled in comparison.

This isn't semantics 101, Shira. This is me asking you for honesty.

The point that the cut and past blog quote, that you placed in boldface no less, says that the world is silent.

Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department? Where are the sponsors of flotillas to bring aid to the refugees?
The answer is they are all silent.

Now you admit that they are not silent. Previously you admitted that they are not equal in coverage which still keynotes coverage...not silence.

I would suggest that the blog post is in error, and I would humbly ask why you didn't take the time to do a reasonable 3 minute search to find that what you posted was not accurate.

In addition, what you are suggesting in your last paragraph is comical to say the least.

Also, I didn't know I had to agree with everything in an article in order to pull some truths out of it.

What you have written about, in taking only tidbits from articles that you agree with, amounts to cherry picking. There's no way around that one.

Quite embarrassing for you to admit so freely.

[shira]

80. The OP claim was WRT the UN working on behalf of Palestinians in Syria...

The OP didn't claim the UN was silent about Syria.

The claim is they're silent WRT the Palestinian refugees in Syria.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

93. Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department?

The answer is they are all silent.

So we've already proven that statement to be dubious.


The problem with cherry picking Shira, BTW which you now freely admit to doing, is that it is not the best or most efficient way of arguing a point.

The Syrian crisis is not just about the Palestinians, but about all people caught up in that war. To try and cherry pick the plight of just one group of people to divert attention away from what is happening elsewhere is completely immoral, dubious and embarrassing.

You should stop it.

[shira]

94. Yeah, where are they WRT Palestinians in Syria? The refugees who are trying to escape...

...for example. Where's the UN and State Department?

Nowhere to be seen.

The OP is dead-on-balls accurate as the Palestinians don't rate anywhere, Syria or otherwise, unless Israel can be blamed.

========

Are you desperately looking for another reason to deflect from the OP?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

99. You can continue to accuse others of hate against Israel or not caring for the Palestinians

until the end of time...and most likely will, Shira.

Several of us have been down this road with you only to end right back in the same tedious circle.

I have no interest in doing it again and again.


Keep up with the accusations of hate, and documented cherry picking as long as you like.


Have a nice day.

[shira]

102. I'm not accusing anyone of hate. I'm asking WHY you all ignore systematic abuse of Palestinian....

....rights under Arab regimes throughout the mideast. I'm looking for an answer. All you've come up with is something on the order that Israel is the reason for all the madness and Israel must be held accountable. I don't see you and your lot even attempting to hold Arab regimes accountable for their violations of Palestinian human rights (which in many cases is far worse than what Israel has ever done).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

104. Yeah...you do, when you are not calling them idiots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431926#post43

The site in general is host to articles written mostly by useful idiots. Occassionally, you see something like what Sheizaf just wrote about the sanctimony of most pro-Palestinian advocates (or Gurvitz vs. the International Left like Abunimah, Blumenthal). You'll see honesty you don't get from the hard boiled Israel haters.

[shira]

106. So the reason (besides hate or idiocy) that pro-Palestinian advocates never protest....

....or seem to care about violations of Palestinian human rights under Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian, or Hamas control is _________?

Maybe there's another reason in your opinion?

Fill-in-the-blank: __________________

Waiting....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

110. Hate and idiocy are you words. You said that you never accused others of hate.

Yet there is is.

I'm not accusing anyone of hate.
-Shira

You were proved wrong.

Now you are going to run from that and start another endless argument?

Several of us have been down this road with you only to end right back in the same tedious circle.
I have no more interest in doing it again and again.

Your position is bankrupt Shira. Live with it.

[shira]

112. Yeah, why do I even ask? You can't even acknowledge what the OP claims....

Nevermind even giving an answer as to why it happens.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

115. And yet, again, your answer is to try and run off in a different direction

or duck out of what you have written.


It always comes back to this nugget of truth.

Several of us have been down this road with you only to end right back in the same tedious circle.
I have no more interest in doing it again and again.

[oberliner]

38. The link was provided

Anyone who wants to read the article can click on it.

[shira]

7. You need to read the whole article as he gives one example after the next...

...from 1948 to the present, in which hand-wringing agony aunts couldn't care less about Palestinians in situations not involving the Jews.

As for Syria, it was just a few weeks ago when Abbas was quoted as stating it's better Palestinians in Syria die than give up their refugee status and come to the W.Bank. None of the sanctimonious anti-Israel brigade had anything to say about that either. And why? Because they don't give a shit, duh.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. As for Syria...

The conflict in Syria in now way absolves Israel for its documented human rights abuses against the Palestinian people just because some really really hope it does, but feel free to rage on.

Addendum: When Assad is finally captured or driven out and Syria is free of a tyrant then hopefully he will be brought to justice; with a long trial showcasing his regime's evils and human rights atrocities. Once that is over what will some say in Israel's defense then with regards to human rights?

[shira]

14. No one is claiming what you wrote. The point is that the Palestinians' biggest advocates....

....are not pro-Palestinian even a fraction as much as they are anti-Israel. They simply do not care about Palestinians unless they can be used to bash Jews.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. "No one is claiming what you wrote." What?

I'm sure that there are many, but perhaps one must have ears to hear, eyes to see.

The whole source of the Palestinian dilemma is not due to Syria, Jordan or Egypt; even though some might try to make it so.

It is the state of Palestine: hindered by the state of Israel through a direct campaign of colonization.

Palestine is the heart of the matter. Palestine, the home of the Palestinian people, is where the human rights abuses, apartheid and Israeli colonialism are practiced every day.

Had Palestine existed in Syria then you would have an argument, but what you have now might be better suited to use in your garden.

It is not about bashing Jews, though that is what some want to make it into. You should know better than to write such questionable things, and all indications are that you do.

Perhaps some may try and deflect from Israeli human rights abuses by pointing the finger at Syria, but that is a sophomoric argument at best. Proponents of Israel cannot escape from its past with shouts of anit-Israel brigade nonsense. They are going to have to own up to Israel's past and deal with it, just as Syria will have to live up to this dark period in their history.

[shira]

22. Did you read what Noam Sheizaf wrote just last week? See #17.

That's what the OP and what this discussion is all about.

It's a fact.

The truth, as you would call it.

==============

What do you think about Mr. Sheizaf now? He's your hero from +972. Your favorite, best ever source for I/P news....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. And how does that position absolve Israeli colonization and apartheid?

From your OP.

"Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department?"

I believe that both myself and azurnoir posted links to just that, yet not only did you ignore them IMHO, but you then went out of your way to double down on your original content.

Remember what I had written? Eyes to see ears to hear?

On 972mags Noam Sheizaf.

I find it strange that you wouldn't cite not only the link but also the following paragraph (see below). No, to be honest, I don't find it strange that you would omit such things. I find it comically predictable on your part.
http://972mag.com/why-dont-you-write-about-syria/65796/

Naturally, I think Israel should be the first to help Palestinian refugees in trouble, for obvious historical reasons. With the current political trends here, such hopes are beyond science fiction, and even an honest debate is impossible.

Or you could have posted this one preceding your chosen snippit.

It’s not unusual for any report on a wrongdoing by the IDF in the occupied territories to be received here with comments such as: “why don’t you write Syria instead?” Or, when a report on a massacre in Syria does surface, someone is only to eager to use it to improve Israel’s image, in some sick, relativist fashion.

But anyway, thanks for the relativist cherry, Shira.

[shira]

32. No one said it does. The OP exposes sanctimonious Palestinian advocates. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. I'll ask you again.

From your OP.

"Where are the UN condemnations? Where is the U.S. State Department?"

I believe that both myself and azurnoir posted links to just that, yet not only did you ignore them IMHO, but you then went out of your way to double down on your original content.

Remember what I had written? Eyes to see ears to hear?

On 972mags Noam Sheizaf.

I find it strange that you wouldn't cite not only the link but also the following paragraph (see below). No, to be honest, I don't find it strange that you would omit such things. I find it comically predictable on your part.
http://972mag.com/why-dont-you-write-about-syria/65796/

Naturally, I think Israel should be the first to help Palestinian refugees in trouble, for obvious historical reasons. With the current political trends here, such hopes are beyond science fiction, and even an honest debate is impossible.

Or you could have posted this one preceding your chosen snippit.

It’s not unusual for any report on a wrongdoing by the IDF in the occupied territories to be received here with comments such as: “why don’t you write Syria instead?” Or, when a report on a massacre in Syria does surface, someone is only to eager to use it to improve Israel’s image, in some sick, relativist fashion.

But anyway, thanks for the relativist cherry, Shira.

[shira]

64. You keep bringing up only Syria and it's not just about Syria...

Just weeks ago, we were talking about Abbas saying it's better that thousands of Palestinians die in Syria than give up their RoR and go to the W.Bank (since then we know Abbas was lying about Israel's role).

Silence.

And not just Syria but going back to 1948, as the OP demonstrates and that none of you guys will touch for obvious reasons.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

65. I guess what I keep on "brining up" is not just Syria, but

the ability of some, no matter what, to point a finger anywhere else, with regards to the Palestinian problem, except where it most notably belongs: on the doorstep of Israel.

No matter how hard these dubious individuals try, they will never be able to explain, ignore, or guilt away Israel's role in colonization, land theft, human rights abuses and apartheid when it comes to Palestinians.

I'm sure they will keep living in denial that it is not what they do every day that keeps apartheid going but what others do elsewhere that is the problem.

For every evil deed out there there that is done there will always be apologists ready with their talking points and breathy protest that the problem lies elsewhere.

[shira]

66. You're trying so hard to deflect. It's soooo pathetic.

When it comes to Palestinians, it's exactly as the OP states. None of you care unless Israel can somehow be blamed.

When it comes to others in the mideast, like the Syrians, you can't be bothered with that either. Even though you all proudly boast of being uber-sensitive to the human rights situation.

=======

THAT is what the OP is about and it's 100% true. It's no wonder you're so desperate to deflect from it.

So the question really is:

Since it's obvious none of you care for Palestinians, forget others in the region who are much worse off, what is your primary motivation when you bring up the Palestinian situation?

Drop the pretense about human rights and just answer the question.

I will gladly answer anything you have once you deal with the OP, but not a moment sooner. You're not going to slip away from this one so easily.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

68. There is no deflection, Shira.

The Palestinian crisis did not originate in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia or even North Korea.

Israel must take responsibility for the human rights fiasco it has created and its apologists should become humane enough to know when they are wrong.

[shira]

70. So blame Israel for what they do, but why ignore all other violations against Palestinians...

....elsewhere throughout the mideast, if you're all uber-sensitive, pro-Palestinian advocates?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

72. Nobody is suggesting that, and that is a rather embarrassing side step argument...even for you.

Israel needs to step up and take responsibility for their actions: colonizing Palestinian lands (i.e. land theft), human rights abuses, apartheid.

Syria should be held accountable for all human rights abuses for anybody killed/injured/displaced in this war, and their leadership should be brought before the law: answerable to the scales of justice.

Israel should take a good inward look at itself and should consider where the scales of justice will weigh on them one day as well.

[shira]

76. That's exactly what's happening WRT Palestinians and it's what you're all suggesting...

Keep the focus on Israel always for violations of Palestinian human rights. Never focus on Palestinian human rights if Israel cannot be blamed.

I know that you know there's something VERY wrong with that calculus.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

82. It's amusing that you bring this up in the I/P forum no less.

Keep the focus on Israel always for violations of Palestinian human rights. Never focus on Palestinian human rights if Israel cannot be blamed.

I'm glad that you could admit, for once, that Israel has violated Palestinian human rights. This must be a big moment for you.

>>>Also I have, and I have not seen anybody else here either, never suggested for a moment that human rights violations anywhere else should be ignored. I'm not sure how you have the courage to make such a false statement.<<<

Let me reiterate. The Palestinian crisis did not originate in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia or even North Korea.

Israel must take responsibility for the human rights fiasco it has created and its apologists should become humane enough to know when they are wrong.

[shira]

85. If violations of Palestinian rights under Arab regimes should not be ignored, why does it happen?

You guys ignore it as though it's a rule.

That's what the OP is about. If you care about Palestinians, why the silence when other actors besides Israel are involved?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

87. You've ignored this several times. Let's try again.

The whole source of the Palestinian dilemma is not due to Syria, Jordan or Egypt; even though some might try to make it so.

It is the state of Palestine: hindered by the state of Israel through a direct campaign of colonization.

Palestine is the heart of the matter. Palestine, the home of the Palestinian people, is where the human rights abuses, apartheid and Israeli colonialism are practiced every day.

Had Palestine existed in Syria then you would have an argument, but what you have now might be better suited to use in your garden.

It is not about bashing Jews, though that is what some want to make it into. You should know better than to write such questionable things, and all indications are that you do.

Perhaps some may try and deflect from Israeli human rights abuses by pointing the finger at Syria, but that is a sophomoric argument at best. Proponents of Israel cannot escape from its past with shouts of anit-Israel brigade nonsense. They are going to have to own up to Israel's past and deal with it, just as Syria will have to live up to this dark period in their history.


We don't ignore it, Shira, but the authorship of Palestinian human rights abuses is presently being written by Israel through colonization of the West bank, land theft and apartheid.

[shira]

88. So all Palestinian suffering, in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or under Hamas.....

...is Israel's fault? If it weren't for Israel, that stuff wouldn't be happening?

And that's why you ignore all those human rights violations?

=======

Just trying to understand what you're arguing.

=======

Maybe you're arguing that until I/P is finally resolved, only then should these violations of Palestinian human rights elsewhere be properly addressed? Until then, all those Palestinians should keep suffering w/o expecting the international community to intervene?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

97. Reading comprehension must be a problem for some today, especially

when their position is such a myopic one.

What I wrote. Try to follow the bouncing ball now.

The whole source of the Palestinian dilemma is not due to Syria, Jordan or Egypt; even though some might try to make it so.

It is the state of Palestine: hindered by the state of Israel through a direct campaign of colonization.

Palestine is the heart of the matter. Palestine, the home of the Palestinian people, is where the human rights abuses, apartheid and Israeli colonialism are practiced every day.

Had Palestine existed in Syria then you would have an argument, but what you have now might be better suited to use in your garden.

It is not about bashing Jews, though that is what some want to make it into. You should know better than to write such questionable things, and all indications are that you do.

Perhaps some may try and deflect from Israeli human rights abuses by pointing the finger at Syria, but that is a sophomoric argument at best. Proponents of Israel cannot escape from its past with shouts of anit-Israel brigade nonsense. They are going to have to own up to Israel's past and deal with it, just as Syria will have to live up to this dark period in their history.


We don't ignore it, Shira, but the authorship of Palestinian human rights abuses is presently being written by Israel through colonization of the West bank, land theft and apartheid.


Keep on ignoring this, Shira. You are really good at it.

[shira]

101. I get that you're saying Israel is the source, the author of the problem, and that Israel must....

...take responsibility, etc. That's all fine and well.

But Palestinians are suffering significant abuse under non-Israeli state actors. You say you don't ignore this, but it sure seems that way. Where is all the advocacy for those Palestinians? Mass rallies, flotillas, ongoing UN campaigns, etc.? Why the relative silence in comparison?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

108. While it is disingenuous to accuse others of only caring about the plight of the Palestinians

if the Israelis are responsible or involed I have a few simple thoughts for you to end this drama.

1) Israel is guilty of human rights abuse, and that not all fine and well. Israel should he held to the highest standards, held accountable and admit when it is wrong for its actions or why bother even calling itself a democracy?

2) As long as the apologists for Israel, and Israel itself, want to turn a blind eye to Israel's record of human rights abuses, colonizing Palestinian land and apartheid then they really have no leg to stand on when they expect the world to rally around them. If Israel, and its apologists, are so vigorous in accusing others of human rights abuses then they better not pretend that what they have created hasn't created problems elsewhere.

3) Lastly, what is the real difference between Israel and the other nations it accuses of human rights abuses against the Palestinians
when it can be accused of several abuses as well as mentioned in point #2? Is Israel somehow entitled to human rights abuses that it accuses others of, or will it always ignore what it does while distracting away from it?

I don't ignore it, but I, and many individuals, expect more from Israel that its apologists aren't capable of or flat out won't do.


So what is the difference between Israel then and those that it accuses of violations against the Palestinians?

[shira]

109. I'm looking to find Palestinian advocates who are just as concerned for Palestinians....

...suffering under Israeli rule as they are under Arab rule elsewhere.

I cannot find any. Help me find them. Do they even exist?

=========

Why do you expect more from Israel? Does that mean you expect less from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Hamas? As though they get a pass?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

111. And yet another Shira-based deflection.

1) Israel is guilty of human rights abuse, and that not all fine and well. Israel should he held to the highest standards, held accountable and admit when it is wrong for its actions or why bother even calling itself a democracy?

2) As long as the apologists for Israel, and Israel itself, want to turn a blind eye to Israel's record of human rights abuses, colonizing Palestinian land and apartheid then they really have no leg to stand on when they expect the world to rally around them. If Israel, and its apologists, are so vigorous in accusing others of human rights abuses then they better not pretend that what they have created hasn't created problems elsewhere.

3) Lastly, what is the real difference between Israel and the other nations it accuses of human rights abuses against the Palestinians
when it can be accused of several abuses as well as mentioned in point #2? Is Israel somehow entitled to human rights abuses that it accuses others of, or will it always ignore what it does while distracting away from it?

I don't ignore it, but I, and many individuals, expect more from Israel that its apologists aren't capable of or flat out won't do.


So what is the difference between Israel then and those that it accuses of violations against the Palestinians?

[shira]

113. I agree Israel should be held accountable in as fair and justifiable a manner....

...as any other nation WRT its own violations. No more, no less, just the same as everyone else.

But Israel isn't accusing others of violations against Palestinians. That's happening w/o Israeli accusations and folks like yourself shouldn't even have to rely on others bringing up those violations. As uber-sensitive human rights defenders, you guys should be on top of all human rights abuses vs. Palestinians. But you're not. You cannot even acknowledge that you guys virtually ignore all such violations. See the hypocrisy yet? And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously?

So what is the difference between Israel then and those that it accuses of violations against the Palestinians?

Israel is a democracy? I don't know, so you tell me.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

116. I find what you have written extremely hard to believe.

Every position that you have taken IMHO is that Israel is not guilty of any human rights violations against the Palestinians.

Perhaps you have changed, but I don't hold out any hope that you have.

[shira]

118. Because you assume too much. Just ask and ye shall receive... n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

121. I believe that we all know what kind of person you are.

[Violet_Crumble]

135. Now, that's false advertising. I asked and was ignored...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32236

[aquart]

131. Certainly the Syrian Palestinians won't be complaining about Israel.

Because they'll be dead. The very alive Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank will be, as usual, vociferous.

But do proceed.

[aquart]

130. Yep. Got a lotta play in the news. And Congress.

Discussed in the General Assembly, was it?

Lotta concern.

[Jefferson23]

5. uh oh..that's just not right, lol.

[shira]

9. Yeah, that's just as condemnatory of Syria as it would be of Israel were the roles reversed. n/t

[Jefferson23]

13. Say what?

They're not sincere enough for you, eh? You crack me up.

[shira]

16. The UN did more WRT the Mavi Marmara incident than it's done with Syria. n/t

[Jefferson23]

18. Your OP is nonsense..but do carry on. n/t

[shira]

19. See the quote in #17 above. The boss @ +972 agrees with the OP.

Be proud of the UN for being far more concerned about the Mavi Marmara incident than 70,000 dead in Syria.

Be very proud.

[Jefferson23]

20. It proves what, exactly? You're involved in a futile attempt here, shira.

You imagine the question refutes the action posted here: The UN inquiry, led by Paulo Pinheiro of Brazil, has been tracing the chain of command to establish criminal responsibility..

Your OP is nonsense. Any questions seeking coverage does not equate with the issue being addressed, best it can
with the politics of the situation with China and Russia.

Let me remind you which country always has Israel's back when they're pushed back on..so, drop it already.

[shira]

23. UN action on Syria? The UN did more regarding the Mavi Marmara than it has on Syria. n/t

[Jefferson23]

24. Yea, as I said, carry on..your OP is and will remain, nonsense.

Syria is not being ignored and the U.S. still has Israel's back, no matter what they do to the
Palestinians.

[shira]

25. If it makes you feel better, it's not just Syria where Palestinians are ignored....

The OP goes back to 1948, showing throughout the decades how the Palestinians "best friends" and advocates couldn't really care less about them unless Israel or Jews could be blamed.

Syria is just the latest example and certainly not the last.

[Jefferson23]

26. At least get your objective straight and stick with it. Your nonsensical OP makes YOU feel better.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Those who don't include

Egypt
Jordan
Syria
Iran
Saudi Arabia
.
.
.

[shira]

15. I cannot think of even one sincerely pro-Palestinian advocate who is a fierce critic of Israel...

...but who is also just as passionate about Palestinians whose rights are severely violated under Arab leadership throughout the mideast region.

Not one.

[Violet_Crumble]

126. Don't forget Israel and it's 'supporters'! n/t

[bravenak]

29. i care

Syrian violence against Palestinians cannot absolve Israel. Both countries are violent against palestinians. Are you trying to say that what is going on in Syria is so much worse that we should not even notice what the israeli govt is doing? Sorry,wrong is wrong. If Israel wants to hold themselves up as the beacon of democracy in the middle east, and " the good guys" , then lets see it. I want our allies to be the good guys.

[shira]

40. What's with all the strawman & red herring arguments here? The OP is dead-on-balls accurate.

The point is that when it comes to the Palestinians, the hand wringing agony aunts only use them to bash Israel as they couldn't care less about them otherwise.

[bravenak]

172. Strawman? Ha!

I see it this way, no occupation=chance for peace.

Let find a solution for the problem. Whenever a land is occupied using military force, the occupiers are blamed for the resulting damage. Refugee camps only exist if there are refugees. They are blocked by the occupier from returning home. They are then abused living as refugees in other countries. Which is then blamed on the occupier,who won't allow them to return. That is why we cannot have decades of occupation.

See, no red herrings. Us hand wringing aunts are wise to worry about our friend Israel becoming an apartheid nation. We want to point out to them that the occupation is the source of the problem, it doesnt make them safer. It makes them look bad. And we cannot support them in this endeavor.

I am not anti israel. I certainly have no need to bash them. They themselves announce their terribly thought out settlement plans regularly through the news media. Post photos of palestinian kids in the crosshairs of a military rifle. They want us to know what they are doing, and they want us to shut up about it. And talk about something, anything else. As a black woman segregation annoys me.

[JoDog]

53. I think the question is

whether or not some of the "pro-Palestinian" forces in the world are, at their roots, less for the Palestinians, and more "anti-Israel". Calling oneself "pro-Palestinian" sounds more positive and less inflammatory to Western ears than "anti" anything does.

I believe the OP poses this question and uses the facts of how Palestinian refugees are treated in other countries around the world as evidence for the argument. It is not that this reality "absolves" or "clears" Israel of anything. The question is, why does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to how the nations of the world treat Palestinians? Why do countries that limit the civil rights of descendents of Palestinian refugees who live in there borders turn around and vocally support and fund Palestinian groups inside of Israel? Is it not hypocrisy for a nation that gives no concessions to the Palestinians that live in its country to demand that another country give concessions to the Palestinians that live within its borders?

That is the question. No argument about what Israel did, is doing, has not done, or plans to do in the future and what if any consequences should come with those actions. No faulty "everyone's doing it so no one is guilty" logic.

[Ken Burch]

30. You do realize that you've now started about twelve different versions of this same thread, right?

Are you EVER going to give this particular theme a rest?

It's getting tiresome and pathetic.

And it's simply not true.

Concern about the treatment of Palestinians is NOT based(at least not in Europe, the UK and North America)on hatred of Jews.

If less has been said about Syria, it's because there's almost nothing anyone outside can DO about what is done by the Syrian government.

Not EVERYTHING in this dispute can be reduced to antisemitism.

[oberliner]

33. "twelve different versions of this same thread"

Another unintentionally funny remark.

[Ken Burch]

34. Not really. I'm not guilty of doing anything like that here. I rarely start I/P threads at all.

What good does it do to start thread after thread on the basic theme of "anyone who disagrees with my views on the I/P issue hates Jews"?

Reducing one's response to virtually ALL dissenting opinion about what what the Israeli government does to Palesitians to "they don't care about Palestinians...they just hate Israel(because there's no reason ANYONE could disagree with what's been done to Palestinians unless they actually HATE Israel, and because disagreeing with Israeli security policy is the exact same thing as 'hating the Jews')" is not only useless and demagogic, it's a lie.

We're not going to solve this dispute by hurling insults and entire organizations and entire nations...and we're not going to solve it unless we all agree that the people on BOTH sides have legitimate grievances, that people on BOTH sides have been innocent victims in large numbers, and that peace depends on accepting that both national communities have real and equally valid connections to the land and an equal right not to be driven away. The poster I'm responding to totally rejects that idea, and brings nothing to this group but endless campaigns of demonization and vilification, endless demands that everyone unquestioningly agree with HER point of view and back HER side in the conflict as the only legitimate side, and endless insistences that people PROVE to her, over and over again, that they aren't monsters.

It has to stop. Those tactics solve nothing and contribute nothing.

[oberliner]

37. I/P is populated by the same stories/threads/arguments over and over

Surely, you must have noticed that fact.

That was the only point I was making.

[Ken Burch]

117. Oh. Misunderstood your intent. Sorry. n/t.

[shira]

41. It's simply not true? LOL! Read the entire OP and you'll see one example after another...

...showing the argument to be dead-on-balls accurate. When it comes to Palestinians, the world doesn't give a rip unless Israel or Jews are somehow involved and can be blamed. Syria is just the latest example in a long line of examples (refugees in Lebanon, women and gays under Hamas, Palestinian child militants and shields, 300K expelled from Kuwait, 10K murdered in Jordan 1970, etc.)

The world is silent and that's just a fact.

Now whether that's due to hatred of Israel is another thing. Maybe you have another reason for it, so let's have it.

[polly7]

44. How ironic.

Coming from one who cares least about Palestinians and spews hatred against anyone voicing support for them ... day after day, month after month. I'm sort of embarrassed for you.

[shira]

46. Try to stay on point. This is about your lot, who says they care so much.... n/t

[polly7]

47. LMAO!

How pathetic.

Anyone only has to read this board to see how much hatred you have for Palestinians, those of us who DO support them, and any author or source of articles we introduce here for discussion. Your hatred is palpable.

Again, I'm embarrassed for you for this OP, but I understand that desperation is setting in as much of the rest of the world is finally beginning to show support for a people who've been brutalized and treated horribly for decades.

[shira]

48. Did you read the entire OP? It shows that unless Israel can be blamed, you guys don't care....

Now you can distract, duck, and dodge from that all you wish.

It's a fact.

[polly7]

49. No, I skimmed it and it just seemed like more of your typical self-pitying, biased, inaccurate

bullsh*. Maybe your problem is that you can't seem to see these people as human beings, first and foremost, regardless of where on this planet they are. Which would make the accusation that anyone only cares about them because it's poor, poor Israel imprisoning them, murdering them, stealing their homes and land ... really ridiculous and pathetic.

I can't even imagine being so trapped in your world that you don't see the how this treatment of people anywhere is cause for most human beings capable of empathy and compassion to support them.

Do you support the atrocities towards Palestinians only because it's Israel doing it?

[shira]

50. Then read it and you'll find one example after the next proving the argument...

An argument so self-evident and obvious that you won't dare attempt to disprove.

Your advocacy.

Exposed.

[King_David]

55. "those of us who DO support them"

You do ?

How do we know this?

A personal attack on Shira makes Polly7 a "supporter" huh ?

Bizzare !

[polly7]

57. I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think,

but yes, I've always supported them, as well as every other persecuted population on the planet. An 'attack' on Shira?? Oh, please. Now I'm embarrassed for you, too.

[shira]

77. So you support Palestinians by attacking Israel, but never stand up for them otherwise?

Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Kuwait?

Nope.

Palestinian child abuse WRT using them as militants and shields looking forward to martyrdom?

Nope.

==========

Who cares if Israel cannot be blamed.

Right?

[polly7]

78. You're thick, shira.

I supported the Iraqi people during the ugly invasion and occupation .... many were abused and mistreated as refugees in places some managed to escape to. The root cause of their suffering was the invasion and occupation, just as Israels' horrific occupation has caused either directly or indirectly the suffering of the Palestinian people. Surely you get that??? If not, I'll edit my post.

[shira]

81. I asked you about Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon....

...as well as Palestinian children victimized and abused by Palestinian leadership, via exploitation as militants and shields.

Where have you ever advocated on behalf of those Palestinians?

[polly7]

83. And I answered. Sadly, I have to edit my previous post. nt.

[shira]

124. You answered about Iraqis, not Palestinians. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

127. As usual, yr inventing views you want people who don't blindly worship Israel to have...

I saw you 'ask' polly a series of questions, and immediately answer them on her behalf. I don't think that sort of 'debate' is an honest or genuine debate tactic.

In yr thousands and thousands of posts in this forum/group, where have you ever shown concern for Palestinians mistreated and abused by Israel? Because what yr approach is coming across like is as though you don't want anyone criticising Israel for what it does to the Palestinians, but focusing blame on everything and everyone else but Israel...

[shira]

133. What do you think of the OP? Agree or not? And why/why not? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

134. Don't just go ignoring what was said to you and the question you were asked...

Go back and read it and see if you can actually produce a reply that addresses what was said in the post instead of blindly firing off questions that you would see the answers to have already been posted in the thread...

Waiting patiently for that list of links to any concern from you, any at all, when it comes to Israel mistreating and abusing Palestinians. Because surely in those thousands and thousands of posts you've peppered the I/P forum with, you'd have shown some concern even once, wouldn't you?

[shira]

136. The OP is 100% correct, you can't stand being exposed, so you lash out at yr accusers. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

137. Y'know, it's very very obvious yr totally ignoring the question you were asked...

You claimed that if people ask, they will receive, so why the blatant refusal to answer the question you were asked?

Answering the question would make much more sense than pretending I'm engaging in some peabrain argument with you about something else...

Here's the question again. Note that asking you a question isn't lashing out at you. Nor is pointing out that asking someone a question and then immediately answering it on their behalf is imo a dishonest debate tactic.

In yr thousands and thousands of posts in this forum/group, where have you ever shown concern for Palestinians mistreated and abused by Israel?

Even one link would be appreciated

[shira]

138. I don't have a problem admitting Israel violates Palestinian human rights....

It's happened often and it's not anything anyone should be proud of. I salute those who genuinely fight for Palestinian human rights without shady political agendas. I applaud Israel's efforts at doing any and everything they do to make amends and to minimize future rights violations.

If you have any specific examples of rights violations you'd like me to comment on, go for it and I'll let you know where I stand.

[Violet_Crumble]

139. That's not what you were asked. Is it possible for you to ever answer the actual question yr asked?

I even bolded it for you, yet you manage to come up with what looks to be an answer to some entirely different question that you weren't asked. Read the question carefully.

'In yr thousands and thousands of posts in this forum/group, where have you ever shown concern for Palestinians mistreated and abused by Israel?'

So, where are these posts of concern for Palestinians when they're mistreated and abused by Israel?

[shira]

141. Provide a few examples and I'll comment on them. I can only think of comments I made about...

...certain circumstances, people affected, but not necessarily due to Israeli policy. I remember commenting sympathetically on the good doctor from Gaza who lost his daughters back in early 2009 during OCL. Not that I believed it was due to bad Israeli policy, however, but it was tragic nonetheless.

When it comes to daily Israeli violations, I don't know enough to comment intelligently on them. Are they due to a few rotten apples (bad soldiers) or is it due to actual policy? If policy, is there really a better way to handle the situation at hand (for example @ checkpoints, what's the alternative other than allowing in suicide bombers)? The point being, I know what Israel is up against and will not tear into them w/o knowing the bigger picture.

[Violet_Crumble]

144. Again you haven't answered the question you were asked...

I'm asking YOU for examples, and if I already had examples, I wouldn't have asked you the question. Yr so quick to supply links to other people's posts, so why is it like pulling hen's teeth to get you to supply links to even one or two of yr own where you have shown concern for the mistreatment and abuse of Palestinians by Israel...

As for this: 'When it comes to daily Israeli violations, I don't know enough to comment intelligently on them. ' You portray yrself as someone well versed and knowledgeable on the conflict, yet now yr saying you don't know about Israeli violations (which I assume is yr euphemistic way of saying that Israel mistreats Palestinians?), but are already looking for reasons to justify any mistreatment? That's pathetic.

[shira]

145. I did answer that I couldn't think of any direct Israeli responsibility WRT violations of HR's....

...that I spoke out about.

While I can think of individual acts I have commented on, they do not meet the criteria you're looking for. I really do not see Israel as a state sponsor of deliberate human rights violations vs. Palestinians. I see them doing the best they can given the situation and I trust the Israeli public to speak out very loudly if/when Israel does something it shouldn't be doing. In fact, it's that public dissent that is perhaps Israel's greatest strength, perhaps unparalleled in the world.

[Violet_Crumble]

148. But that's not an answer to the question I asked you...

I dunno, this isn't rocket science. The answer you gave would be the answer to the question: 'Can you name some instances of direct Israeli responsibility WRT violations of HR's?' I didn't ask you that. I asked you where you'd evern expressed any concern for the mistreatment and abuse of Palestinians by Israel and asked for links. You still haven't answered that question. I'm not interested at all in yr attempts to portray Israel as The Most Fucking Awesome Country In The World. I want you to answer the question you were asked and if you can't show where you've ever shown concern, then admit you don't show any concern...

[oberliner]

149. "I want you to answer the question you were asked..."

Funny comment.

[shira]

152. I did answer. Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I asked you where you'd ever expressed any concern for the mistreatment and abuse of Palestinians by Israel and asked for links.

I told you I couldn't think of any instance where I did that. I have no links. You're right about me. Happy?

[Violet_Crumble]

154. I'm happy, thanks for admitting that...

Someone who can't recall ever expressing any concern for the mistreatment and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is not well placed at all to be running round yelling at other other people and accusing them of not being concerned when it comes to mistreatment and abuse of Palestinians by non-Israelis. It'd be a really really hypocritical approach to take.

Oh, and there's no need to get so nasty.

[shira]

156. Now you'd have a point about my not being well-placed to criticize others....

...if I didn't show any concern about Palestinian rights. But note how narrow your question was. It was about Israel's policies or state-sponsored abuse of Palestinians. I don't see Israel with any deliberate plans or policies designed to violate Palestinian human rights. There's a world of difference b/w individual Israelis being mean or indifferent vs. the GOI.

OTOH, I am accusing non-Israeli state actors of such abuse against Palestinians. Whether it's Hamas controlled Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan. Those are examples of state sponsored abuse of Palestinians. You guys are unmoved by that. I'm not even sure you all even acknowledge the abuse that goes on there, which is far more obvious and magnitudes worse than anything Israel can be accused of.

See the difference yet in our accusations vs. each other?

[Violet_Crumble]

159. I do have a point. I don't expect you to see it, though...

My suddenly narrow question was an exact mirror of the one you were flinging round here at other DUers. Interesting how what's good for you isn't acceptable when it comes to others modifying yr tactic...

Are you for real? Yr denying that Israel deliberately violates the human rights of Paletinians??? Where will we start? I expect there'll be a deluge of denial, but the mistreatment of Palestinians in Israeli jails springs to mind, as does quite a few bigoted and discriminatory laws from successive Israeli governments targetting Palestinians.

I don't know who 'you guys' are, but as yr including me in that, unlike you I have spoken out about the mistreatment of Palestinians elsewhere, including by my own country.

Also, have you got any idea what a policy actually is? I would think anyone using language like 'state actors' would, but I recall last time you trotted out this sort of stuff you had no idea what it was.

[shira]

162. If you want to debate Israel's treatment of Palestinians in jails or discriminatory law....

...then let's have at it.

unlike you I have spoken out about the mistreatment of Palestinians elsewhere, including by my own country.

Really? Like Arab leadership abusing Palestinian children? Abbas' apathy WRT the lives of 10's of thousands of Syrian refugees? Apartheid in Lebanon?

I've never seen you even acknowledge any such problem exists. You can't speak out against any of the above if you don't even acknowledge it happens.

[Violet_Crumble]

164. There's nothing to debate. The mistreatment is something that happens...

I'm heading off to bed, but I'll be back tomorrow to start posting link after link to incidents where Palestinians have been mistreated and abused by Israel just so you can sit there and shrilly deny each and every one.

I have spoken out in the I/P forum about the mistreatment of Palestinians elsewhere, so maybe you should quit while yr behind on this one. I've posted about the shit treatment of Palestinian refugees in surrounding countries, and talked about how they're used as pawns by other Arab countries. If I see one more 'oh really?' in response, I'll start digging in the archives tomorrow and start copying and pasting each one with a link.

[shira]

168. Can't wait for you to bring the evidence.

And if you can show me examples where you condemned Hamas child abuse, Abbas abandoning the Palestinian Syrian refugees, and Lebanese apartheid conditions WRT their refugees, that'd be great...

[Violet_Crumble]

175. You falsely accused me of never having condemned anyone but Israel for mistreating Palestinians...

Now instead of admitting that you were yet again making up stuff that wasn't true, yr changing the goalposts so it has to be something specific in the exact sort of wording you use.

I can and will supply you with links to where I've criticised non-Israeli countries for their treatment of Palestinians, but it looks very much now like yr going to carry on and make out that if someone doesn't use the *apartheid* term that you have massive explosions about when used within a mile of the word Israel, then they've never expressed criticism of anyone but Israel. Doing that would be extremely dishonest, imo...

[shira]

178. I did? Because what I meant and believe is that relative to Israel's treatment.....

....or in comparison to that, you are silent when it comes to crimes against Palestinians committed by non-Israeli state actors. That doesn't mean you never say anything, but the few mumbles hardly compare to your obsessive zealotry when it comes to Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

180. Okay, I see you don't understand what the word silent means...

And that yr going to continue to pretend that I don't criticise anyone but Israel for their treatment of Palestinians. I hardly think what I've posted here over the years amounts to a few mumbles, but there's no pleasing you clearly...

Obsessive zealotry? Are you for real? Me, I'd not be throwing that at anyone if my profile showed that 100% of my posts were in the I/P group. Just sayin'...

Account status: Active
Member since: Tue Jun 24, 2008, 11:33 PM
Number of posts: 16,869
Number of posts, last 90 days: 1230
Favorite forum: NA
Favorite group: Israel/Palestine, 1230 posts in the last 90 days (100% of total posts)
Last post: Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:26 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=222750

[shira]

146. You misinterpret my "approach". It isn't that I don't want Israel criticized or want blame....

....focused on everyone else but Israel. How lame would that be?

My argument is self-evident to all who aren't attempting to deliberately misrepresent me as the embodiment of all evil. Here it is...

Those who criticize Israel the most harshly and pretend they are the most sympathetic and sincere friends of the Palestinians are nothing of the sort, and BECAUSE of that they have no moral or ethical right to lay into Israel. That's what the KKK and far right extremists do. They don't get taken seriously either. Now your lot could be taken FAR more seriously - and respected as well - if they showed as much concern for Palestinians who are mistreated by non-Israelis.

Now is that clear?

Because each time from now on that I expose the hypocrisy of the sanctimonious anti-Israel brigade, I want you to know clearly where I'm coming from.

If you need further clarification, lemme know rather than attribute false motivations to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

147. I'm pretty sure I haven't. It's all about perceptions...

And that's the perception yr posts do give. I know from reading DU that I'm far from the only DUer to suspect that's what yr motivation is. That's not attributing anything to you, btw. Yr the one who makes up stuff that you've been repeatedly told isn't true about other DUers in this group. After the way you've flung false accusations at other DUers, yr the last person to complain when you mistakenly think yr getting a taste of yr own medicine...

No-one is trying to portray you as the embodiment of all evil. Why do you say such ridiculous things?

Those who criticize Israel the most harshly and pretend they are the most sympathetic and sincere friends of the Palestinians are nothing of the sort, and BECAUSE of that they have no moral or ethical right to lay into Israel...<snip>Now your lot could be taken FAR more seriously - and respected as well - if they showed as much concern for Palestinians who are mistreated by non-Israelis.


Who the fuck is 'my lot'? And are you saying that I have no moral or ethical compass, that I'm some *fake friend* of Palestinians, that I don't show concern for Palestinians mistreated by non-Israelis? If so, boy are you in for an education and a half, though I know it won't stop you from repeating the same nonsense in a few weeks time...

Because each time from now on that I expose the hypocrisy of the sanctimonious anti-Israel brigade, I want you to know clearly where I'm coming from.

You really think what yr doing at DU is exposing anything? The only thing I see repeatedly is you intentionally saying that other DUers hold views that you've been told they don't, showing a marked double standard when it comes to the way you react to Islamophobia as opposed to other forms of bigotry, and attacking people you don't agree with for using terms and words you yrself use. In fact, I've got room to build one last city in SimCity4, and yr post has inspired me to name it Upper Double Standardville. Thanks for the inspiration!

[shira]

155. Now you're telling me what I believe after I just explained it to you....

Isn't that what you hate others doing after you've attempted to explain your motives and POV?

And are you saying that I have no moral or ethical compass, that I'm some *fake friend* of Palestinians, that I don't show concern for Palestinians mistreated by non-Israelis? If so, boy are you in for an education and a half, though I know it won't stop you from repeating the same nonsense in a few weeks time...

Hamas cynically abuses Palestinian children, making them aspire to be jew-hating suicide bombers, militants, and kiddie shields. Abbas has recently told Palestinian refugees in Syria they may as well fuck off and die. Generations of refugees in Lebanon are denied some of the most basic human rights Lebanese citizens have. Question: Do you or other pro-Palestinians you respect even acknowledge this stuff is going on? I ask because I don't see you guys ever speaking out against it and advocating for these poor Palestinians.

[Violet_Crumble]

157. No, I'm not. Don't you understand what a perception is?

People have perceptions of how other people come across. I told you what my perception of yr motivations was. I didn't do what you do to everyone here and ignore everything they say and tell them what I say they believe. I don't know if yr honestly struggling to understand this, or whether yr doing it deliberately...

Hey, you see that thing with a question mark after it? It's thing called a question. Questions invite answers, not a bizarre question in return. How about you try answering what I asked you? Or was that thing I read yr attempt at saying 'why, yes, Violet. I'm saying all that nasty and untrue shit about you!'?

I do really like how you've taken the mantle upon yrself of Protector of the Palestinian People and are chasing people down who don't care about them as much as you do! Can you teach me how you manage to do it without ever having expressed concern for them when they're abused and mistreated by Israel? Or doing it without caring enough to gain knowledge on the way they're mistreated? I know time is precious for you, what with having to cart endless links to blogs that call Palestinian parents cowards and call Palestinian society one of child sacrifice, so any little moment you get spare will be so appreciated!

[shira]

161. I told you where I'm coming from, explained how you're wrong about me and you still carry on....

How much longer will you tell me I've "taken the mantle upon *myself* of Protector of the Palestinian People", when I've done no such thing or ever made any hint that I'm even trying to do so?

You're so desperate to turn the tables in a very clumsy attempt to deflect from the OP.

To answer your question, I'll definitely let you know most explicitly when I'm saying nasty and untrue shit about you. Until then...

[Violet_Crumble]

166. It's as though yr not reading what yr replying to, Shira. Don't you understand a perception?

That's got nothing to do with what someone telling someone else what they think about something (yr tactic). It's about the impressions other people get based on what they observe of a situation or person. The latter isn't telling you what you believe, it's telling you what other people's perceptions are. While you can control the way you behave, you can't control other people's perceptions, and yelling at me about it isn't helping in changing the perceptions I've got.

How much longer will you tell me I've "taken the mantle upon *myself* of Protector of the Palestinian People", when I've done no such thing or ever made any hint that I'm even trying to do so?

It must have been my imagination that had me seeing you running round yelling at other DUers that they didn't care about Palestinians sufficiently. I must have made the mistake of thinking someone would only care about other people caring if they themselves cared about the Palestinians. Oh, well.


To answer your question, I'll definitely let you know most explicitly when I'm saying nasty and untrue shit about you. Until then...

Here's an idea. Why don't you just not say nasty and untrue shit about me, and while yr at it, other DUers? Because that ridiculous implicatation that I have no moral compass was a pile of untrue bullshit.

[shira]

171. So now it's a misperception. You're wrong, but you're still repeating it. Why?

How much longer will you tell me I've "taken the mantle upon *myself* of Protector of the Palestinian People", when I've done no such thing or ever made any hint that I'm even trying to do so?

It must have been my imagination that had me seeing you running round yelling at other DUers that they didn't care about Palestinians sufficiently. I must have made the mistake of thinking someone would only care about other people caring if they themselves cared about the Palestinians. Oh, well.

I run around asking DU'ers who advertise themselves as pro-Palestinians who are uber-sensitive about their human rights. I do not advertise myself that way about Palestinians and never have done so. I ask them to justify their silence and denial of rights abuses when Israel cannot be blamed. That's all. What more do I need to explain here?

To answer your question, I'll definitely let you know most explicitly when I'm saying nasty and untrue shit about you. Until then...

Here's an idea. Why don't you just not say nasty and untrue shit about me, and while yr at it, other DUers? Because that ridiculous implicatation that I have no moral compass was a pile of untrue bullshit.

My apologies. I will try my utmost to not say anything anymore that can even remotely be perceived, misconstrued, or manipulated to make it appear I'm trashing fellow DU'ers.

[Violet_Crumble]

174. I'm not wrong when it comes to my own perceptions, and I'll keep on repeating it...

Because it's my perception based on observing. Do you understand? It's *my* perception. Get yr fucking own instead of trying to hijack mine...

I doubt there's many DUers at all who'd agree with you that being concerned for the human rights of Palestinians is being 'uber-sensitive'.

What more do I need to explain here?

I dunno. You weren't asked to explain anything, but here you are returning again and again to shriek at me because you mistakenly think I'm doing the exact mirror image of what you do.

My apologies. I will try my utmost to not say anything anymore that can even remotely be perceived, misconstrued, or manipulated to make it appear I'm trashing fellow DU'ers.

It's not about people misconstruing what you say to be trashing fellow DUers. It's that you actually do that. You even admitted in the post of yrs prior to this reply that you do it.

[shira]

176. Your concern for Palestinian HR's is uber-sensitive but only when Israel can be blamed. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

179. Yr starting to do that circular ignoring what people have said thing again, Shira...

I don't think people who are concerned for the human rights of Palestinians are uber-sensitive at all, and to believe that being concerned for human rights is being 'uber-sensitive' is somethign I'd expect not to see at DU, as most people on teh Left do think human rights are important.

Yet another correction for you to ignore, but I'm still going to point it out. I don't know why yr continuing to make accusations like you did when you've been told by me that I am concerned about human rights regardless of who violates them and whose rights are being violated. Which is why I've posted in the past about the way Palestinians are used as pawns by neigbouring Arab states, and complained about my own countries treatment of Palestinian refugees who tried to come here and ended up on Manus Island. I really do think there's some mirror-image projection going on, so all I can do is just keep on reminding you of what my views are and hoping that you'll eventually either give up or start listening to what people say about their own posts and what they've said...

[shira]

183. In another thread, I asked you about Hamas' child militants....

Using Palestinian children as militants is a war crime. You didn't appear to have any problem with Hamas/Islamic Jihad training children in order to confront the IDF. It looked like you supported it on the grounds of self-defense. Am I right about that?

Those pictures there showed how children are being brainwashed and used for future martrydom (suicide) missions, as militants, and as shields.

I mean, where's the condemnation of Hamas for all this child abuse? All I see is deflection from you...

[Violet_Crumble]

186. Which thread was that? Could you give me a link? Or was that the thread you were locked out of?

If you post a link, then you can zoom over there to continue yr 'questioning', can't you?

Now, I've explained very patiently what my views are and what I've posted in the past in this forum. I don't know how much clearer I can be. That you sit there and ignore everything that's said to you and continue what is a very robotic 'I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!!' routine reflects very poorly on you, imo.

[shira]

188. It's the thread I was locked out of....

Am I to understand you won't condemn Hamas and Islamic Jihad for training children to confront the IDF because you believe those children need to protect themselves from the IDF?

As to the pictures you found bigoted WRT the little children, here they are once again...
http://palestinianchildabuse.com/2013/01/12/palestinian-child-abuse-in-a-nutshell/

Am I to understand you're pissed more at people reporting this than you are the adults responsible? Should that be censored and is criticism and condemnation of the adults responsible wrong in your view?

[Violet_Crumble]

189. When yr locked out of a thread, yr not supposed to just up and move yr routine to another thread...

You were locked out of that thread for accusing me of supporting Hamas , supporting war crimes, and a whole bunch of other stuff that was nasty and untrue.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32652

Don't go dragging it over here. It's looking very much like yr just trying to circument the jury system here at DU3....

[shira]

190. The topic is related. It's about people who say they care about Palestinians....

In this case, child militants.

I brought those 2 examples up again in this thread because the first examples seems to demonstrate the lack of a need to condemn Hamas if what they're doing (training child militants) can be justified in the name of self-defense. The second example needn't be criticized either due to the bigotry and dehumanization attempts of the ones reporting it.

In both cases, there seems to be a deflection from obvious child abuse vs. Palestinian children.

[Violet_Crumble]

191. No, yr just dragging the shit from the thread you were kicked out of over here...

You admitted it when you told me what thread you were referring to, so it's probably best for you to drop this now because it really is circumventing the system. Tell you what, though. I'm going to head right on back to that thread, coz I've got a bit more to say

[shira]

192. And over on that thread you continued to deflect....

...from the fact that Hamas and Palestinian parents (whoever the adults are) abuse little children in a very sick and vile way.

I can only assume you have no problem with what goes on there, unless......maybe it's that you believe if you speak out against it, you'll get accused of bigotry and dehumanization? So you care but you don't want to be labeled as a rightwinger? Or you don't care at all?



I expect more from people who say they care about the Palestinians.

[Violet_Crumble]

195. You mean the thread you were locked out of after falsely accusing me of supporting Hamas?

Like I said, anyone can go to yr transparency page and read the thread and read for themselves.

You just keep on assuming whatever it is that yr assuming. I'm sure someone somewhere might even care. It's just not me...

[King_David]

90. Great points your making

Appreciate your thoughtful insights.

[polly7]

91. I think I'm being quite reasonable, considering what I'm responding to.

YVW.

[bravenak]

100. Exactly.

I have noticed a fair amount of aggression from this poster towards Palestinians. I should stop reading these I/P posts, since it makes me sick to my stomach. Just wanted to agree with you right quick. Thanks.

[polly7]

122. Yeah, makes me ill too ...... and I don't think I've managed to post a single thread

for discussion that she hasn't purposefully derailed whining about the author, but this thread is pure comedy!

[King_David]

132. Yes thanks for the contribution. nt

[polly7]

140. You're so welcome. nt.

[King_David]

54. Quite the accusation your making,

These accusations generally are quite revealing .

[polly7]

58. zzzzzzzzzzzzz ..... nt.

[King_David]

89. Good argument nt

[polly7]

92. TYVM. nt.

[Violet_Crumble]

125. You've conveniently overlooked the many times Shira tries to equate Palestinians to Nazis?

Or is that yr idea of 'caring' about Palestinians?

If you actually have somehow missed seeing those revolting and hateful attempts to equate them, then I can supply you with links to the many posts and you can try to explain how those sort of comments aren't what Polly quite rightly said they were...

[Bohunk68]

51. No recs. No fb links by readers.

That says a lot in and of itself, especially when there are so many replies.

[shira]

52. What do u expect from those alligned with and in lock-step w/ the 3rd world Far Right? n/t

[King_David]

56. That's how you decide the truth huh ?

Facebook links ?

LOL

[Violet_Crumble]

129. It's remarkably formulaic and simplistic drivel...

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Written by a pro-Israel shill for other pro-Israel shills who don't like having to think about what they try to shovel down everyone else's throats. While he's worshipped by people who shriek in outrage at anyone mentioning the Israel Lobby and try to portray them as being antisemitic, they don't seem to have the same issues when it comes to their hero and his book about the Arab Lobby, which he described as only existing to try to destroy Israel...

btw, it only takes wading a few paragraphs into that whiny nonsense to spot the first accusation that supporters of the Palestinian cause are antisemites....

[shira]

142. Yes, drivel that you cannot dispute due to the fact it's correct. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

150. I tend not to waste my breath refuting stupid drivel...

But I will point out how predictable it is that you'd agree with that lunatic that supporters of the Palestinian cause are antisemitic.

[shira]

151. Look, if you could refute the OP you would have done so already. You can't.

So rather than try doing so, you go on the attack against your critics.

Point proven.

[Violet_Crumble]

153. Am I talking to a brick wall? I just told you I don't waste my time on drivel...

And yr not a 'critic', and pointing out that the person who wrote this OP is a lunatic and that in agreeing with him that supporters of the Palestinian cause are antisemites, yr embracing a nasty mindset that revels in negatively stereotyping and falsely broadbrushing everyone who do support the Palestinian cause. That's not an attack. That's pointing out the fucking obvious. Interesting that you see people who you smear as antisemites daring to disagree with you and Mr Arab Lobby as attacking you. That's very, very, very sensitive!

[shira]

158. There are 2 issues in the OP. Number one is that the Israel bashers virtually ignore abuse....

...vs. Palestinians so long as Israel cannot be blamed. The other issue (#2) is assigning motivation for that indifference, which is anti-semitism.

Do you acknowledge (#1) but disagree with (#2) or do you deny (#1) and therefore feel you don't even need to go into (#2)?

[Violet_Crumble]

160. Pay attention, Shira. Labelling pro-Palestinians as antisemites is dishonest and extreme...

And that's what the person who wrote the OP yr saying is so good was doing. It's obvious to most people that someone who criticises Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians and the Occupation isn't an antisemite. You've repeatedly accused DUers who do oppose the occupation of 'bashing' Israel and supposedly ignoring everything else, so yr admitting that you think we're all antisemitic? Think about yr answer carefully, if you ever get round to answering, because the answer is going to say a lot more about you than I think you comprehend...

[shira]

163. It's NOT obvious that most people who criticize Israel WRT Palestinians are not antisemites...

A few examples are Ahmadinejad, Gilad Atzmon, George Galloway, Greta Berlin, David Duke, and Pat Buchanan.

How's about we talk about those anti-Semites? They neither acknowledge, nor do they care about Palestinian HR violations and abuses under Arab rule. If Israel isn't involved, they couldn't give a shit.

We shouldn't even expect to see them bring up Hamas' cynical child abuse, Abbas' apathy towards 10's of thousands of Palestinian refugees in Syria, or apartheid in Lebanon. They don't care. Never will....

The OP is dead-on-balls accurate about those vile, nasty critics of Israel, isn't it?

[Violet_Crumble]

165. Yet again yr ignoring the question I asked you...

Back up here. I asked you 'You've repeatedly accused DUers who do oppose the occupation of 'bashing' Israel and supposedly ignoring everything else, so yr admitting that you think we're all antisemitic?'

It's a simple question that has a simple yes or no answer. Are you going to answer it?

[shira]

169. I did answer it. Do I have to answer you once again 8 different ways? You've done this before....

Once again, you'll be the first to know when I accuse you of anything. I haven't accused anyone personally of anything. So take that as a 'NO'.

Now when will you start answering me?

[Violet_Crumble]

177. No you didn't.

So, you now claim that you haven't accused any DUers of bashing Israel? Oh-kay....

The answer to yr question is: No. Just once and clearly would be nice, thanks...

[dkf]

128. Nope. No US wars in the Middle East.

They have to solve their own problems. All we do is create more enemies and damage our men and women and spend all our money.

And people who support war can always volunteer. But no chicken hawks please.

[JoDog]

167. OK, I am going to restate the question

one more time.

This topic is not about categorical lists of human rights violations against the Palestinians. It is not about who can prove they care more about the future of the Palestinians as a group of people or the conditions many of them currently live in.

This is the heart of the topic:

When the state of Israel or Israelis as individuals are believed to be violating the rights of Palestinians, the world gnashes its teeth, rends its garments, gives names to the perceived evils, and demands actions. But if any non-Israeli state or individual is believed to violate the rights of Palestinians and/or treat them harshly, there seems to be only silence. There are no calls to bring the accused actors to any kind of justice.

The question is WHY? Why does there seem to be such a double standard when it comes to world condemnation on these alleged actions?

Before reading the OP, I had never posed that question myself. Now, I very much would like to have it answered, even though I am not the original poster. I do not like double standards anywhere in life. This is starting to really bother me.

[shira]

170. Good luck getting an answer, much less acknowledgment there's a double-standard going on. n/t

[shira]

173. I was hoping someone would honestly tackle this. Here's a bump. Maybe it will still happen. n/t

[Purveyor]

181. But if any non-Israeli state or individual is believed to violate the rights of Palestinians...

Examples please that compare to the apartheid like conditions israel forces the Palestinians to live.

[shira]

184. Lebanon apartheid conditions vs. Palestinians...

“They are not allowed to work in more than 20 white collar professions, including medicine, law and engineering. Meanwhile, blue collar jobs require that Palestinians obtain work permits that must be renewed annually or if a worker changes employers. They are unable to own property and they are excluded from most social services offered by the state, even though they must pay social security fees to the Lebanese government in order to obtain a work permit”.

Despite the passage that same year of a law ostensibly designed to ease the obstacles to Palestinian existence on Lebanese territory, the UNRWA website continues to characterize the situation of the more than 400,000 refugees in the country as one devoid of “several basic human rights”.

http://friendsoflebanon.org/archives/1258

[Violet_Crumble]

182. If someone doesn't believe there is the double standard you say, then how can they answer yr ?

Also, when language like 'gnashes teeth' 'rends its garments' etc is used to describe criticism of the occupation and Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people, that does suggest that there's some hyperbole happening and the question asker is probably not happy at all that Israel does get criticised.

I really don't warm at all to the attempts to divert attention elsewhere by demanding that people condemn a long laundry list of other things before they even utter a single word of criticism of Israel. Shouldn't the focus be on ending the occupation and removing Israeli settlements and allowing an independent and viable Palestinian state to emerge in teh West Bank and Gaza, and not about what area of conflict gets the most attention? Because this whole argument doesn't work when I've seen some pro-Israel supporters complaining because the media apparently doesn't spend enough time talking about Israel and its part in the conflict...

[JoDog]

185. If you want to criticize Israel

go ahead. So long as it is based in fact, I will not impede you. Indeed, on some points, I will probably agree with you.

The language was a little hyperbolic, I admit, but I used it to mirror some of the extreme language used elsewhere on this thread. Personally, I think throwing around the word "apartheid" when discussing the problems of Israel is a little hyperbolic, but that is just my opinion.

What bothers me, and what I hoped we could have a good discussion about, is why is seems so many people who are concerned (and rightly so) about the plight of the Palestinian people in Israel do not seem at all concerned about the plight of the Palestinian people in OTHER nations. If they are concerned, I do not see any proof of it. I do not see protests in front of the embassies and consulates of those nations. I do not see flotillas heading to their shores. I do not see threads on DU discussing institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians in Jordan, or the work restrictions put on them by Lebanon. If that is not a double standard, what words would you use to describe it?

While none of that negates what has happened/is happening/could happen in Israel, I think it is a part of the whole picture, without which a fair solution cannot be reached.

That is the question. That is what bothers me.

[Violet_Crumble]

187. It's not a double standard, coz what yr saying there isn't the case...

I'm not sure what proof you need. Lists of documentaries on things like the plight of Palestinians in Lebanese refugee camps? Organisations set up to try to assist the same refugees?

See, if that's supposedly a double standard, then what about the double standards that I see where pro-Israeli types start going 'why haven't I ever see you condemn (insert name of other country and other conflict here)?' while not being the slightest bit bothered at the double standards they display because they've never expressed any interest in that conflict before and are only interested in it now to use it as a tool to try to attack criticism of Israel for the occupation.

The world isn't some black and white, everything must be totally equal and balanced type place. If it were, instead of having conjured up WMD and invading Iraq, which in reality was no threat. But the North Koreans arent sitting on a plentiful supply of oil, and they aren't Arabs, so Iraq got the treatment from the US. I could sit here and complain about double standards and demand to know why people aren't talking about the Indonesian occupation of West Papua. I did mention East Timor a fair bit as well at one point, but was told by one now banned DUer to take it somewhere else, because this is the I/P forum. Double standards? I could ask why Tibet is so appealing as a cause to artists who love to participate in concerts about freeing Tibet, and why there's nothing like that for the Palestinians. I wouldn't ask, because I don't really think any of that sort of thing is showing double standards. Different conflicts and different situations of course get different levels of exposure and interest. The interest in I/P is imo in part due to the fact that Israel is seen as being the favourite of the US, and the dislke that comes about because of that is understandable, seeing as how the US is really disliked around the world for its foreign policy blunders that have destroyed millions of lives. The attention from the UN is also understandable given that they were responsible for the partitioning of Palestine and the situation hasn't been resolved. Until it is, they'll be involved, though the US will of course blindly veto any meaningful Security Resolutions that dare to criticise Israel...

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this, and I hope we do get to work out some of the things we agree on over time

[shira]

193. No flotillas to Syria or Lebanon for the refugees there....

No advocacy for abused children who are made into militants, martyrs, and human shields by Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Where is FreeGaza, BDS, CodePink, Mondoweiss, the ISM, PSC?

The Palestinians oppressed and abused by Arab leadership apparently aren't as human as Palestinians affected by Israel.

The question is why.

=======

Apparently you don't want to answer this. It's why you're deflecting by bringing up other causes and opposing advocacy groups.

Lame.

Fail.

[Violet_Crumble]

194. I'm sorry. Are you trying to address what I said in my post?

Because this looks like more of the bizarre, hypocritical, vitriolic and abusive sounding stuff you've been peppering around in other threads.

Now, JoDog, unlike you, made it clear they wanted to have a civil discussion, asked a question that I answered and we've been having a pretty good exchange. That's what happens when people talk to others the way they'd like to be treated. Maybe you should try it?