Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Next Hate Fest: CUNY Mockery on Gay Rights
In other words, she accuses Israel of feigning concern over the rights of gay people in order to whitewash pinkwash its lack of concern for Palestinian people.......
The anti-Semite just knows that theres something sinister at work if Jews do anything positive. The core characteristic of anti-Semitism is the certainty that everything the Jews do is wrong, and everything thats wrong is done by the Jews. To the anti-Semite, every depression, war, social problem, plague must have been the fault of the Jews. Whenever the Jews seem to be doing good giving to charity, helping the less fortunate, curing the sick there must be a malevolent motive, a hidden agenda, a conspiratorial explanation beneath the surface. Today, the twisted illogic that has characterized classic anti-Semitism is directed at the Jewish state, which for the anti-Semite has become the Jew among nations.
So when Israel sends help to tsunami and hurricane victims, the ideological soulmates of the pinkwash brigade accuse the Jewish state of merely trying to garner positive publicity calculated to offset its mistreatment of Palestinians. When Israeli medical teams save the lives of Palestinian children, they must be up to no good.
And when news surfaced that the Israeli Army has the lowest rate of rape against enemy civilians, radical anti-Zionists argued that this was because Israeli soldiers were so racist that they didnt find Palestinian women attractive enough to rape! Nothing the Jew or the Jew among nations does can be praised, because its purpose is always to manipulate, to conceal, to divert attention away from or to distort the evil that inheres in all Jewish actions and inactions. That is the bigoted thesis of the pinkwashing campaign, and it is little different from similar campaigns organized by classic brown-shirted anti-Semites....
http://jewishvoiceny.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3393:the-next-hate-fest-cuny-mockery-on-gay-rights&catid=113 ped&Itemid=296
King_David
(14,851 posts)What a joke that they talk about human rights .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ references, but does not source. Perhaps because it shows that ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ'S op-ed is complete and utter fucking bullshit.
Schulman does not claim, as ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ states, that Israel only engages in gay rights for PR efforts. Rather she argues - correctly - that Israel's position on LGBT people is used as a propaganda tool against Palestinians (and Arabs as a whole, oftentimes). She commends the gay people of Israel for having succeeded, but laments that that success is used by propagandists.
Rather than address what Schulman's actual position is, rather than rebutting words she has actually spoken, rather than referencing her NYT piece, her book on the subject, or anything else she's actually done, ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ makes up his own words and puts them in her mouth. He calls her an anti-semite, a hater, makes allusions that she's a Nazi, accuses her of the worst things possible, all while apparently counting on the notion that anyone who reads ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ willingly must be one snorted line of drain cleanser away from death and is in no condition to check references.
Also, if I've not made this clear enough, the piece is shat by ALAN MOTHERFUCKING DERSHOWITZ. Just in case someone might have missed that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there was an epic thread on this topic on DU2 it's a looooonnnnnggg read but you'll get the idea
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x366616
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)And insightful and intellectual post your laughing at and giving the thumbs up to.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)"One of the reasons the Gay community has made such big gains in Israel is due to their embrace of Zionism."
So, if the Gay community didn't embrace Zionism in Israel, they'd be totally fucked? Is that your argument in favor of Zionism, or what?
geeze louise but I've got to ask w.t.f. connection you're trying necessitate here. Are you out of your mind????
If Israel doesn't discriminate w.r.t. sexual orientation, or sexual identity, then Israel is on the correct track according as the universal standard of equal rights before the law for all persons regardless of race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. etc. That's a GOOD thing. But for you to assert that this right is dependent on a person's embrace of Zionism is BAD.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I am thankful that the Zionist entity is the only country in the area that does not discriminate against their gay citizens.
The record of Israel's neighbors against their own gay citizens is an abomination that the world and United Nations and Canada should hold them all accountable .
Aid to Palestine should be withheld until there is equal human rights for all irrespective of ones sexual orientation .
Got it?
delrem
(9,688 posts)But that is all.
You, on the other hand, say that that gay citizens owe this equality to their acceptance of Zionism as an over-riding political ideology, and I don't agree.
I don't see the connection that you see between rights w.r.t. sex and sexual orientation and Zionism, that such rights are dependent on the peoples at issue accepting Zionism as their political philosophy.
Do you really think that every country on the planet has to be a Zionist country, that these rights be recognized? That, after all, is your argument.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Citizens should be shunned.
I expect a little more than BDS against these backward bigoted homophobic states that surround Israel .
shira
(30,109 posts)In fact, they're not even considered victims unless a Western country can be blamed for their oppression.
Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Kautsky, etc.. would totally disown today's pro-BDS, pro-Hamas, anti-Imperialist Left who think they're Leftists but are not.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Aside from your virulent "Israel is better than those savages" message, what "more than BDS" do you expect from the world?
Do you expect the US to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia?
To my mind that'd be one small step for humanity, but it isn't likely, is it?
Without US support many of those regimes might be more likely to fall from internal stress - and it might be more possible for a democratic opposition to be established, a secular political structure to be worked out so were the dictator to fall there'd be something there to possibly replace it aside from a religious institution. After all, democracy has happened before, e.g. Iran was on the democratic move before the US overthrew the fledgling democracy and installed a "shaw" - and the long term outcome of that US interference hasn't been too hot. At the very least without the massive US military support the dictators of the region might be forced to move at least a trifle.
Perhaps not, but the status quo of massive US military support for all those dictatorships hasn't helped matters, has it? and the people have nowhere to turn except to their traditional religious infrastructure. And traditional religious infrastructure, no matter where found, isn't fertile ground for progressive action.
King_David
(14,851 posts)In these backward fundamentalist countries
Because ?
The victims are LGBT ?
delrem
(9,688 posts)now that shira has stepped in calling out "bigot! bigot!", you expect us all to jump in the cesspit?
shira
(30,109 posts)Anything goes in 3rd world countries as far as the anti-Imperialist, BDS supporting Left is concerned.
Victims get recognized only if white/western countries can be blamed (especially Israel).
King_David
(14,851 posts)LGBT rights do not seem important compared to demonizing the only country in the area with equal rights afforded to us LGBT folk.
Their must be a reason for this ?
The emperor has no clothing .
shira
(30,109 posts)...a mile away based on their indifference and apathy when it comes to Palestinian human rights under their own leadership (or in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan).
What's disturbing is seeing prominent women's rights advocates (or gay rights advocates) who feel it's bigoted/rightwing to stand up for women and gays in 3rd world countries. They simply don't do it. They feel all the people are behind their oppressive leadership (seculars and liberals too) and sharia (or anything else oppressive) is what they actually want, not Western rights. They could care less about fellow liberals/seculars in those countries.
I can't tell the difference b/w them and the most extreme rightwingers.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Dershowitz and Obama are pretty much in sync on every major issue, including Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)he was promoting Republicans
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Bill-O is an independent after years of being an (R) doosh, but he still attacks Dems and progressives, but it is alright that he does it since he isn't a Republican.
King_David
(14,851 posts)As is Obama .
And I'm not using code language either .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Dershowitz and Obama disagree on Iran. They disagree on Obamacare. They disagree on Hagel. And I can't imagine Obama advocating torture of terrorist suspects, or advocating wholesale destruction of towns in response to terrorist acts as Dershowitz has. Nor can I see Obama rushing to George Zimmerman's defense. Nor can I imagine Obama grabbing his junk and screaming to the heavens about what a nazi fuck Jimmy Carter is. Obama supported the building of that Muslim community center in New York, Dershowitz opposed it.
They don't actually agree on much aside from " arab) terrorists can be killed by assassination without judicial review." And just ask some actual liberals - you know, Du'ers who post outside this fucking Superfund site of a group - what the "liberal opinion" of assassinations is. Go on.
What Dershowitz does is jump aboard the Democrat ship just as it leaves the dock, so he can be photographed among the "liberals" then he goes overboard (literally and figuratively) right back to his usual Ann Coulter-y diatribes, hate speech, and right-wing dipshittery.
It's as Daneel points out above, with Billo or Hannity; "I'm a registered X who voted for Y!" does not in any way change that a person is a right-wing fascist fuckface.
If that's what you want to rally behind, sure go ahead; it basically just reinforces my opinion of you, so no harm done. But i think it'd be better if you Zionists developed something approaching "basic standards."
I'd also like a pony, while I'm at it.
shira
(30,109 posts)She supports a wonderful future Palestine that will oppress and kill its gay population, not to mention deny basic rights to women, christians, jews, and just about everyone else...
That oasis of utopianism that Schulman supports will only come into being due to war and perhaps over a million casualties. That makes Schulman a huge war-monger.
Does that put her farther to the right than Dershowitz, in your opinion?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Once again Shira, making shit up does not make it true. It just makes you a liar.
shira
(30,109 posts)Once you read that, let's discuss it, okay?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You claimed:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113433199#post23
That's a lie, as I pointed out. And your selection there offers nothing to bolster or defend the lie you used. I mean literally, nothing.
Plain and simple Shira. You lied. You lied grotesquely.
shira
(30,109 posts)Her closest friends assure her it's okay to march in solidarity with Hamas.
She says she doesn't care to know what Hamas is all about (their entire agenda is genocide) and she avoids even getting into it.
=========
Not very different from useful idiots working side-by-side with the worst militant KKK freakshows. Not caring what they stand for, being assured it's okay to work with them in order to correct some perceived "injustice".
=========
To the intended targets of Hamas or the KKK, there's really no difference b/w the killing machines targeting them or their useful idiots helping them to carry out their agenda.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)She's not working with Hamas. At all. And again, what you have sourced offers absolutely nothing in support of your claim.
Again Shira, making shit up does not actually make it true.
Maybe you should go back to whining about the lack of flotillas to Tibet.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Any true liberal supports gay rights absolutely .. In every country and every territory... And absolutely nobody gets a pass.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Except perhaps Dershowitz and the zionists on this thread who believe gay people who have a different opinion should be barred from speaking that opinion, attacked as Nazis, and otherwise treated as subhuman scum. Words are put in her mouth, false positions are attributed to her, and the worst accusations are made.
And rather than allow information to creep into your brain, you just mindlessly, thoughtlessly cheer the attacks against her. Because apparently in your mind, gross misrepresentations and hideous accusations against gay people and Jews is perfectly okay so long as the person engaging in it is a Zionist human trashbag like Dershowitz.
Dershie's also worth your support when he advocates torture. He's your guy when he insists that there's a world-controlling Arab lobby, re-warming a boring old Antisemitic trope and applying it to Arabs. He advocated the invasion of Iraq, loudly, and you of course can't criticize that. he also opposed our withdraw from Iraq, on the basis that resistance to our occupation justified the occupation - boy, that sounds familiar!
Yes David. Actual liberals. You want to cuddle up with Dershowitz, go ahead. But don't try to tell me you're a liberal for doing so. It's not a word that you can mutate to mean whatever the fuck you need it to mean. You can support gay rights while still holding on to a whole suite of other inhuman repressive ideologies that disqualify you from the liberal label. Dershowitz is such a person.
And for what it's worth, he does not think that gay people should have the right to get married. He holds the libertarian idea that marriage should not be a government affair.
Oh. And he thinks Sarah Palin is a victim of blood libel.
What a guy.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Most anti Zionists are extreme right wing loons.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I figure at this point it's all you have, so I won't begrudge you.
Feel free to continue your support of a dude who thinks that opposition to Chik-Fil-A's position on GLBT people is itself "intolerance." That really shows off your support for gay rights, you know.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And support them fully in their LGBT support and support of the Jewish State .. I am a very comfortable member here at DU.
As far as my LGBT opinions go, why don't you go to our group here on DU and see exactly who is or is not out of sync.
Hint : it will not be myself.
Ask the hosts there.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)David, this tactic of yours, "run and hide behind the Democratic party" when you lose an argument is silly. The Democratic party is wrong about stuff. In fact it's wrong about quite a bit of stuff. For instance, they didn't endorse same-sex marriage until 9/3/12. I'd like to think that you were out of synch with the party's previous opposition to / silence about the subject, but hey, you're here endorsing Dershowitz, so I guess I could be wrong ("abolish state marriage" isn't an answer to the question, Alan!)
It's not a very good tactic Dave. In fact it seems to imply you think all liberals march in absolute lockstep with the democratic party, which would seem to imply a startlingly deep ignorance of anything related to liberals or the democrats... but it does mirror the opinions I regularly see from right-wing dumbfucks (We're all "Obama's stormtroopers" don'cha know, a hive-minded red tidal wave of leftist oppression!)
I'm going to tell you something about "supporting the Jewish state." Several somethings, in fact.
One, calling Israel "The Jewish state" ignores the existence of about a third of Israel's population. I suppose they just don't count? i guess I know the answer to that question, given who I'm talking to.
Two, "support" is a pretty vague term. I'm sure you've seen these "I support the troops!" bumper stickers, yeah? Ever felt tempted to knock on that SUV's window and ask the person inside, "okay, how?" They don't know. They probably figure five bucks for a bumper sticker somehow goes into a "support the troops fund" or lifts someone's spirits or god only knows what. Generally their support is intangible and meaningless.
So too with the "support" most politicians give Israel. Generally it means "I support Israel's existence." Okay... and? Some ambivalence about Taiwan and Palestine aside, is the existence of any nation actually opposed by these politicians? Of course not, you can't be all like "Hey, Moldavia, FUCK YOU, you shouldn't exist!" 'cause then you tick off Moldavia, and Moldavia's buddies, and you have a diplomatic incident on your hands, right? So supporting the existence of any nation (even if done under-the-table, as with Taiwan) is pretty much the default position.
Now the question becomes, what of Israel's actual policies garners this support? Much as with the Democratic party, one can support one thing the organization (in this case, a nation-state) does, while totally opposing something else that the organization does. Walking, chewing gum, that sort of thing.
I think you'll find a lot more ambivalence, hemming, and hawing on the Hill when you ask about specific policies
shira
(30,109 posts)....for gay or women's rights in Gaza or the W.Bank? Or the protection of children from being used as militants, shields, or suicide bombers?
Where are those "progressives"?
Who are they?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)As I believe I have covered before. Remember, when I explained to you that bombs are not discriminating weapons and target civilians by default?
shira
(30,109 posts)...rather than working with Hamas, like this:
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)does ending a brutal military occupation equate to getting a pass in your mind?
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....which means an end to Israel and any civil liberties that exist there. Her sole motivation is to delegitimize Israel and darken its image in order to bring an eventual end to Israel. She and her fellow cohorts hate anything that puts Israel in a positive light. She does not criticize Israel in the hopes of making it a better country. She does so because she hates the country and wants it gone. She is no better than Pam Gellar spewing her hateful shit.
Schulman is a textbook antisemite.
She also supports a future Palestine that will be (based on its leaders now) off the charts extreme rightwing and racist. IOW, she wants liberal Israel replaced by a theocratic, ultra-conservative, fascist, racist, totalitarian regime (which puts Schulman farther to the right than Gellar). Another reason Schulman is farther right than Gellar is due to here non-existent concern for gay rights in Palestine. Hating Israel takes precedence over gay rights in Gaza and the W.Bank. She's no different than Hamas and Islamic Jihad on that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)"Terrorism Causes Occupation, Not Vice Versa" (eta he's speaking about Iraq)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2773921
seems he's a man after the heart's of some here, but not many as a search of his name on DU will quickly show
King_David
(14,851 posts)Imagine if someone wrote a post about Larry motherf--NG Derfner or Ali motherf--ng Abumineh or Mother Fu--ng Noam Chomsky..
How immature that would sound...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Ever.
But go on circling the drain, Dave, supporting this fascist freak of nature. Brings out your eyes.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And antisemitism and homophobia are freak of nature and should not be tolerated.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But I guess antisemitism against Jews you disagree with and homophobia against gays you don't like is okay, so long as it's in the name of Zionism.
One wonders why you bother mention two prejudices that you don't actually give a fuck about.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I don't know what on earth your talking about... at all... Clueless here.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And yes, I know all about your voluntary ignorance.
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)I bet I could sign up more people than Jews who belong to NIMN.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)As far as I am concerned, the only one "pinkwashing" is the creator of that word and her creepy minions, which are few in number, at least as far as I can tell.