Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Worst Argument Against The Apartheid Analogy
A senior employee at right-wing organization NGO Monitor penned an interesting op-ed in Israeli daily Yisrael Hayom this morning (Sunday).
NGO Monitor, which targets organizations and people who actively oppose the occupation, is obsessed with use of the term Apartheid. The piece by NGO Monitor’s deputy director of communications, Lena Abayev, is a longwinded attack on those who compare the situation in the West Bank to that of Apartheid South Africa.
Interestingly enough, there are only two sentences in which the author actually addresses reality on the ground in the West Bank. Sadly, they work against her argument:
Israel is guided by the rule of law and has not imposed any form of apartheid on its citizens or on its Palestinian neighbors. The residents of the West Bank cross the border into Israel every day for their livelihood, and their movements within Israel are not restricted.
Those mildly familiar with South African history know that the permit regime (aka Pass Laws) for blacks in South Africa was one of the most notorious aspects of Apartheid. Similar (but by no means identical) procedures are an inherent part of the regime to which millions of Palestinian non-citizens are subjected.
MORE...
http://972mag.com/the-worst-argument-against-the-apartheid-analogy/73355/
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)Now that is funny!
http://972mag.com/tag/apartheid/
Who is obsessed with the use of that term again, 972maggers?
Self-awareness not high on the 972mag priority list.
delrem
(9,688 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I mean this website literally runs article after article using that term - so it's kind of silly for them to call another site obsessed.
delrem
(9,688 posts)It works too, so I can't fault you for efficiency.
shira
(30,109 posts)You all deny and ignore apartheid in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan against Palestinian refugees and find some way to support their ongoing misery there. It happens in Gaza too (Hamas vs. the christians there). You support all that...
Then you project your hatred onto your opponents and have the audacity to accuse us of being pro-apartheid.
Have you no shame?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)You all deny and ignore apartheid in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan against Palestinian refugees and find some way to support their ongoing misery there. It happens in Gaza too (Hamas vs. the christians there). You support all that...
Then you project your hatred onto your opponents and have the audacity to accuse us of being pro-apartheid.
Have you no shame?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43179
so you really are promoting Palestinians staying in Syria, all things considered that's umm interesting to say the least
BTW I'm replying because
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43144
shira
(30,109 posts)....now and the very least you can do is advocate better living conditions for them. You and your flotilla friends could make a difference. Hold a protest at the Lebanese and Syrian embassies...
Something.
Anything....
Really now - what's the difference between you and the leadership there WRT Palestinian human rights? Is there any difference? They practice rightwing humanitarianism, how about yourself? 
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)actually i've never protested at any embassy, and right now there are bigger fish to fry WRT Lebanon and Syria but never it's only Arabs dying, right? Horrible that so many Palestinian and Iraqi refugees are being caught up in this though
shira
(30,109 posts)...for refugee conditions.
You're now using the excuse that there are bigger things happening.
What's the excuse for the past 6+ decades?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but don't let that stop you and it won't 
shira
(30,109 posts)So how long back does it go?
4 decades...?
...of silence?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and up until around 2000 I was very ProIsrael, but little by little that changed with my experiences at DU putting on the finishing touches
shira
(30,109 posts)....or embassy protests by the "loving and caring" pro-Palestinian western contingent?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and the flotilla was initiated because of the siege of Gaza, which goes back 6 years
shira
(30,109 posts)Why is that, you think?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oops that rhymes doesn't it?
shira
(30,109 posts)No protests at embassies to condemn apartheid vs. Palestinians throughout the Arab world.
No concerted effort to protest Hamas treatment of Gazans.
Why is that, you think?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)why well why don't you tell us why you think some of us want to see Palestinians in their own country rather than simply made as you put permanent residents of another Arab country
shira
(30,109 posts)...and make excuses for the PA rejecting offers for their own state 3 times since 2000; the last offer being a 100% land deal.
You would demand accountability & want to know precisely why it was rejected and no counter-offer made...not make lame excuses apologizing for PA rejectionism.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and the West Bank is not Israel's sovereign territory to mete out as it sees fit
shira
(30,109 posts)It's that it's not good enough for Abbas and no counter-offer was made.
The occupation is legal (UNSCR242) and settlements are a final status issue (Oslo) that the PA signed onto 20 years ago.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and the last so called offer which I de-bunked for the umpteenth time was 5 years ago made an Israeli PM who was forced to step down from office days later
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43314
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)could lend themselves to that ah impression
shira
(30,109 posts)...only to be rejected all 3 times w/o a counter-offer. It was even worse in 2000-01 when the PA countered with Intifada 2.
It's as if the PA prefers occupation over an end to it, doesn't it?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from areas they consider desirable and by what right does the Israeli government fund 'Israelis' to move there?
shira
(30,109 posts)So why do you think the PA prefers occupation rather than a final end to it, as the Israelis have offered 3 times since 2000?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or the right move close to 400,000 Israeli Jews onto it
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)increase the number of settlers 400% since signing?
shira
(30,109 posts)Nothing in Oslo demands that Israel limit settlements.
On its own, Israel has not built any new settlements since the mid 90's.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)does Oslo give Israel permission to any state land? these things are not settlement issues
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for purposes of settlement growth ? That would not be a security issue
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Deportations, transfers, evacuations
ARTICLE 49 [ Link ]
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/380-600056
what imperative military reasons does Israel have, when it allows it's own Jewish citizens to inhabit the same land within a short period of time?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)How are your plans to visit Tibet going, Shira?
shira
(30,109 posts)...and Egypt WRT Palestinian apartheid conditions there is __________ ?
a) lack of interest
b) ignorance of the situations there
c) other _______?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You seem awfully flummoxed about the details of the situation, for someone who natters on endlessly about them. Have you ever considered getting a script written by someone who isn't an ignorant fascist fuck? 'Cause whoever you've got penning this stuff for you is ripping you off.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do they blockade embassies so that there are no protests there?
Do they blockade access to the UN so that no resolutions can ever be passed to help Palestinians suffering under apartheid in Lebanon and Egypt?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And that it was a private operation?
...Who am I kidding, you were demanding flotillas to a landlocked plateau in the Himafuckinglayas.
shira
(30,109 posts)....don't give a rip about the human rights of Palestinians when blame cannot be pinned on the Israelis. Same WRT human rights elsewhere in comparison throughout the world (like Tibet which is 1000x worse).
I understand that you realize the above and are definitely ashamed and embarassed of it, but will deflect in any way possible in order to avoid discussing it.
When your advocacy for human rights mirrors that of Pat Buchanan, David Duke, and Ahmadinejad, who can blame you for deflecting?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And you're just dropping names at random now, aren't you? Are you really a person over there? 'Cuase you're reading more and more like some "random generator" algorithm by the day
(NSFW link, by the way. Funny, more so if you hate bad literature, but NSFW 
)
shira
(30,109 posts)Why no mass protests at embassies or city squares, why no flotillas, no flytillas, no hot-air-balloontillas or trucktillas, no big time pressure for UN action, no endless media advocacy by the "pro-Palestinian" west for Palestinians suffering apartheid or worse in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt?
They don't sleep when it comes to Israel. No, when it's Israel there's 24-7-365 non-stop rending of garments, gnashing of teeth, apoplectic seizures, head explosions...
But when Israel can't be blamed, it's virtual silence from these very same whiny "pro-Palestinian" agony aunts.
Why is that?
Are these Palestinians suffering under Arab regimes human enough for them? I'm told the pro-Palestinian contingent cares sooo much for them.
Why the silence?
Riddle me that one first, please.
I'll wait....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)fascinating descriptive you use here
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to explain to someone who didn't seem to understand Tibet was land locked when demanding a flotilla there
shira
(30,109 posts)So much for your "pro-Palestinian" advocacy.
No different than the phony care displayed by Buchanan, Duke, or Ahmadinejad...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 16, 2013, 02:37 AM - Edit history (1)
over 100 posts and you seem to only be able to name call and squawk about Lebanon , Syria , Jordan Egypt any Arab country and when asked about Israel you justify expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank to make make room for more Israeli settlers , defend Israel staking out State land on territory that does not belong to it
Thank you shira you've done quite nicely here in stating your positions on things
and oh the nearly year old thread of yours you kicked in a revival attempt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43503
not playing now that can be squawked about too
King_David
(14,851 posts)I'm sure
In a pot kettle fascist and bigot and homophobia kind of a way...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Remember, you were going to ask if it's "okay" to disagree with democratic politicians about anything, and whether DU considers disagreeing with advocates of ethnic cleansing to be a violation of the TOS?
No rush, I know you must be busy.
King_David
(14,851 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...vs. Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, for example?
Or vs. the christians in Gaza under Hamas?
It's not as if you're unaware of it. Do those Palestinians suffering under apartheid count as human beings to you? Do you support their ongoing misery?
Explain please.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That appears to be someone else's job.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)What difference does it make that 972 is the source? Why should that site be considered any less credible than any other that deals with the I/P spectrum of issues? It's not as if anybody out there, really, is truly "objective" on this thing.
Do you make a point of calling out every single thread started by an article from Israel National News, the official organ of the totally cray-cray wing of the settlers?
It's not like 972 is this year's Der Sturmer, for God's sakes.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think I do that. I just think it's funny when the entire contents of the site are unloaded onto DU article by article which seems to happen from time to time.
And I absolutely object to threads that use Israel National News and have called people out for posting such articles on numerous actions.
Example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=33239
If you want to do a search, you can find others.
But people have (thankfully) for the most part stopped posting from that odious website.
The 972mag postings, however, continue unabated.
As for myself, I try to post articles from across the spectrum that, for the most part, represent actual news related either to Israeli or Palestinian current events (or those connected to the conflict). Granted, I don't always follow this dictum, but I try to have the lion's share of my postings be of that nature.
What I always find strange (just as an aside) is how actual news stories about current events happening often pass by unnoticed (and are not commented on) while op-ed pieces rehashing the same arguments that have been had here repeatedly (and redundantly - and to no effect) seem to generate the most responses and attention.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But you do make a point of acting like anything from 972 is automatically discredited, simply because 972 is the source.
And really, is any news source that deals with the I/P issue totally dispassionate(I could also raise the issue of whether or not "objectivity" truly exists, but that's for another forum)?
"Mainstream" American news sources pretty much take the Israeli "line" on the issues there. Most European news sources pretty much do the same with the Palestinian "line"
other than the ones that are allied with parties trying to curry favor with the U.S. by being more-pro-Israeli-than-thou). There really isn't any source that reports on the conflict there from a detached Olympian distance.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)His behavior during the Greta Berlin episode ought to have demonstrated conclusively that he is not trustworthy and has questionable ethics (at the very least).
Yossi Gurvitz is another writer over there whom I feel some antipathy towards for a variety of reasons.
As to the other writers at 972mag (and it's essentially about six people or so) they vary in their degrees of credibility and bias.
Some of the articles over there, I think, are just plain silly.
Anyway, my vision for this board (obviously one that will never be realized) involves posting primarily dispassionate news reports of significant events in the region that we can comment on and discuss reasonably with one another.
Edit to add: For instance, a new Palestinian PM has been appointed. What, if any, thoughts do people have about that? (My posting of an article with this news received zero responses, so I guess the answer is not many).
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Charles Johnson? David Horowitz? Richard Landes? Pajamas Media, Algemeiner, the Australian, Arutz Sheva, and you're going to shit your pants over Larry f'ing Derfner.
Seriously, if you could even out the hand that does all this finger-waggling, you know you might get somewhere, instead of just getting the snickering and flipped fingers that you earn with your current system of being a Zionist Gandalf, all "Pro-Palestinian angles SHALL NOT PASS!
Response to Purveyor (Original post)
shira This message was self-deleted by its author.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but move along folks nothing to see here nope nothing at all
shira
(30,109 posts)...regarding Palestinians in Lebanon or Egypt who live under apartheid conditions?
Do you support that?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as you see the Palestinians in Lebanon and Egypt are refugees in a foreign country, in Palestine they are under foreign military occupation one that transfers Palestinians out of territory it was granted temporary (20 years ago) guardianship over as it transfers in it's own citizens to colonize
shira
(30,109 posts)...is not Israel's fault. Those born in Lebanon could be granted citizenship and still retain their refugee status. Like all other offspring of refugees throughout the world, they should be granted citizenship rather than live under apartheid laws.
It appears you support their ongoing misery.
Right?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and if you care to keep up with news you might find Lebanon is none to stable at the moment, but I see your keeping up the Global Language Dictionary (Hasbara Handbook) here is your use descriptive language, I think that one is called Transfer
Transfer
Transfer involves taking some of the prestige and authority of one concept and applying it to
another. For example, a speaker might decide to
speak in front of a United Nations flag, in an
attempt to gain legitimacy for himself or his id
ea. Some of the symbols that might be used in
discussing Israel might include the Israeli flag,
or Star of David; Islamic symbols, which might
lend a militant speaker the apparent support of
Islam, even when what they are saying goes
against mainstream Islamic beliefs; non-deno
minational prayer, which gives a sense of
religiosity to a speaker even when his message is
not 'religious'; and the national symbols of a
speakers' own country - such as the American
flag - which create the impression that the
speaker is presenting 'American values'.
Jewish student groups in the Diaspora can use th
e flag of their own country side by side with
the Israeli flag, where appropriate, to lend suppo
rt to Israel. In a sports-loving country (such
as Australia), students can make people aware
of famous Israeli sportsmen and sportswomen,
in order to transfer positive feelings
(about a football team) to Israel.
Palestinian groups notoriously attempt to enlist
the symbols of the international community to
transfer support and legitimacy. Arafat and the
UN flag is a sight we are all accustomed to.
These efforts can be undermined by trying to enlis
t the same symbols, or more powerful ones first
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
shira
(30,109 posts)Why the silence all this time from Palestinian supporters like yourself?
You say you support the people, not the regimes using them as political pawns.
Explain?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)until the 1970's when the world started to take notice but Lebanon was involved in it's own bloody civil war much like Syria is at present, also Lebanon is being drawn into Syria's war but is that what you'd like to see for the Palestinians, it seems so, as you keep going on about it
shira
(30,109 posts)Also for the last 65 years.
What about them?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and once again a Palestinian State would fix that would it not?
shira
(30,109 posts)They could make Palestinians permanent residents with all rights except for voting, but you don't care.
You're excusing Arab regimes for denying Palestinians certain professional employment opportunities, use of public schools, property ownership, etc.
=============
And it's not about my concern for Palestinians as you and your colleagues here claim to be pro-Palestinian.
Seems you're anti-Palestinian and an apologist for Arab regimes abusing them...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or pointing out the truth is making excuses? yes I saw quite a bit of what was called excuse making and apologist right after 9/11 too
It could seem you'd like to see the Palestinian absorbed by countries that are already unstable rather than have their own country
shira
(30,109 posts)The least you can do is advocate for refugees being allowed into all professions, public schools, owning homes/land...
Seems you couldn't give a rip as you have the same agenda Arab regimes have - namely to use Palestinians as pawns.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)asking that Palestinians have their own country is using them as pawns in your mind? Is that a tacit confession that Israel will not allow a Palestinian State?
shira
(30,109 posts)....without all the apartheid restrictions?
Seems you couldn't give a shit about refugee misery.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Forget Permanent Residency then....how about just residency status w/o voting rights? Stop other apartheid laws.
You won't condemn that because you support their continued abuse and misery...
The Arab league keeps them miserable for a reason and you're right with them. You're as bad as the most fanatic settlers. Not even most of them would agree to keep refugees suffering in miserable apartheid conditions w/o access to jobs/careers, public schooling, and home ownership.
You're worse than them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in any of the countries you mention? your accusations are quite out of line and as I said I support Palestinian having their own country, not Palestinians suffering
shira
(30,109 posts)Why are you not for immediate access to jobs, homes, and public schooling for Palestinian refugees?
How would being for that also be damaging to an Arab country?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I'm so glad your so concerned that Palestinians and only Palestinians be made comfortable anywhere but Palestine or Judea and Samaria
shira
(30,109 posts)Look at you making one excuse after another for Arab regime apartheid policy.
You support ongoing apartheid against Palestinians.
You, one of their so-called biggest supporters.
shira
(30,109 posts)Seriously - why aren't you against the continued denial of jobs, public schooling, and home ownership for Palestinians?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and then only when its other Arabs as you have demonstrated here I think Palestinian should be allowed their own country, BTW what is the rate of home ownership in Egypt and Lebanon, UNRWA provides schools, and unemployment is a growing problem in Egypt but you'd like to add Palestinians to that mix too, for their own well being, eh?
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/final-issue-problem-unemployment-likely-worsen-egypt
shira
(30,109 posts)How can you claim to be pro-Palestinian when you support apartheid policy against them?
In no way are you prepared to ever protest against Lebanese apartheid policy.
So you support apartheid and pretend to be concerned about Palestinians only when you can blame Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)most of the host countries own populace and then pretending this is what you'd like to see for Palestinians living in those countries and only Palestinians living in those countries
shira
(30,109 posts)...like the ability to choose a career/job, own a home, or send kids to public schools exposes you as a supporter of such measures vs. Palestinians.
You have some nerve criticizing others of apartheid vs. Palestinians when you're such an enthusiastic apologist for it. Remember this the next time you you attempt to do so...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but no one cares about Palestinian quite like you 
shira
(30,109 posts)There are only 30-50,000 original refugees.
All the rest were born in their country of residence.
The very least you can do is advocate better conditions for them (non-apartheid status). Your refusal to condemn Arab leadership goes to show you don't care what they do to the Palestinians. You may as well be enthusiastically supporting these apartheid regimes.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)about it, so call it apartheid if you wish and continue to accuse me of approving of it, however as I hold out little hope of Lebanon changing anytime soon, it was attempted in 2010 and failed miserably, is it wrong yes but also is it also being used to distract from Israeli acts of apartheid yes indeed it is and this whole weary subthread is proof positive of that
shira
(30,109 posts)It's no wonder you won't condemn it.
You refuse to recognize it.
You see it when Israel supposedly does it, but refuse to see it otherwise. I'm sure apartheid Arab leadership in the region appreciates your support.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I also said that I do not think Lebanon will be changing anytime soon, so are you admitting the same about Israel, is that why your so insistent, otherwise this could simply appear to be look over there and I'm sure considering all of your concern for Palestinians at least outside of Israeli control that can not be true, right?
and if memory serves you denied that Israel so much as discriminates against it's own Arab citizens
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)After all, the official reason that the UNRWA and the Arab League has always opposed granting Palestinian refugees and their children citizenship (or even just decent, permanent housing aside from refugee camps), was that it would rob them of the desire to fight for the right of return to Israel. It's never been about the best interests of the Palestinians. Rather it specifically sold those interests in favor of using them as political leverage.
Of course there's a logical flaw in that they're arguing for a RoR for people who were never actually Israeli, based on the fact that they or their forebearers once lived on the land that became Israel. Yet somehow being born in and living in Lebanon for decades grants them no rights there whatsoever.
Regardless, why would a Palestinian state solve anything for these poor people? Do you really think it'd take them in?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)which it might have done especially prior to 1967, and perhaps even a bit later than that
and heaven RoR for people that were never Israeli oh dear oh my it seems no one was Israeli until 1948, not at least for a couple of millenia anyway
your suggestion that a Palestinian State would not take Palestinian refugees in is nothing short of ridiculous
From behind a desk topped by a miniature model of Palestine’s hoped-for blue United Nations chair, Ambassador Abdullah Abdullah spoke to The Daily Star Wednesday about Palestine’s upcoming bid for U.N. statehood.
The ambassador unequivocally says that Palestinian refugees would not become citizens of the sought for U.N.-recognized Palestinian state, an issue that has been much discussed. “They are Palestinians, that’s their identity,” he says. “But … they are not automatically citizens.”
This would not only apply to refugees in countries such as Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan or the other 132 countries where Abdullah says Palestinians reside. Abdullah said that “even Palestinian refugees who are living in [refugee camps] inside the [Palestinian] state, they are still refugees. They will not be considered citizens.”
Abdullah said that the new Palestinian state would “absolutely not” be issuing Palestinian passports to refugees.
Neither this definitional status nor U.N. statehood, Abdullah says, would affect the eventual return of refugees to Palestine. “How the issue of the right of return will be solved I don’t know, it’s too early [to say], but it is a sacred right that has to be dealt with and solved [with] the acceptance of all.” He says statehood “will never affect the right of return for Palestinian refugees.”
http://m.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/2011/Sep-15/148791-interview-refugees-will-not-be-citizens-of-new-state.ashx
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well first off as I told the other poster here who I predicting would post that drivel as they have a number of times prior , what was said is they would not be automatically citizens, is every Jew automatically a citizen of Israel, doesn't criminal background at the very least come into play?
Mosby
(16,319 posts)Why is that? are they all criminals or something?
These poor folks are living within the borders of the future state of Palestine and yet they are kept locked up by the PA.
The West Bank is home to 771,000 registered refugees, around a quarter of whom live in 19 camps.
http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=103
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or have the camps themselves become communities, that provide schools medical care and other services to their residents?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)What evidence do you have that would suggest that a newly formed Palestinian state would make repatriating refugees outside their borders a priority? Or that they would even bother attempting to do so at all?
You see, the language I keep hearing suggests that the PA intends to stick with their current platform even after they get their state. The one that holds Israel responsible for their refugees. Not themselves.
shira
(30,109 posts)Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Palestinian refugees are refugees because they have been labeled refugees, not because they bear the same qualities that mark other refugee populations as such.
For instance:
In areas like Gaza and the WB they technically were never refugees at all. They still remained in their home state. That their UN aid org and Egypt kept them in destitute refugee camps doesn't mean they were refugees. It meant they didn't allow anyone to build them nicer homes.
They get their own UN aid program. The biggest agency at the UN in fact. Staffed entirely by Palestinian refugees themselves. Who all lose their jobs if they do them competently.
Tell me... Why is a kid who immigrated to Palestine for two years and then expelled in 47 a refugee of Israel while a guy who was born and lived his whole 55 year old life in Lebanon also a refugee of Israel?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)
that would be about 4.5 million so apparently not every Palestinian is a refugee and the Nakba never ended in fact it continues till this very day
as for your question here
I don't know however you be sure to let us know okay
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)To be more accurate though, there's only around 5.5 million REGISTERED Palestinian refugees (aka: the refugees who are used as a tally by the UNRWA to determine funding, resource distribution, etc.)
Some of those registered as refugees still live within Palestine's borders. Some are citizens of other states. Some are destitute and rely on the UNRWA for everything. Some non registered refugees are destitute but live in Chile or Israel and are thus outside of the group's purview.
Basically, my point is that the term is meaningless, at least regarding its commonly used definition. Arafat, himself from Egypt, and despite his citizenship status in other states and great personal wealth is an example of someone who could (and did), accurately claim refugee status under the UNRWA's terms.
If those terms were used by the world at large then most of us are refugees. Worst, those terms are then used to deny rights to those who'd otherwise have them. The refugee status is passed down through the father. So even in places like Egypt where their citizenship is passed down matrilinearly, if the child's father is Palestinian then it would invalidate the child's normally sovereign rights.
It's just a term that gets used most often to hurt and disenfranchise Palestinians. It means nothing in the commonly understood sense of the word.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as refugees themselves, well time would take of the problem wouldn't it, I'm sure China feels much the same about those pesky Tibetans too
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Yes. Unless they were counted... "well time would take of the problem."
Proof this is all about 'justice' and punishing Israel for its 'original sin' and has little to do with the Palestinians' best interests. Because god forbid this problem were solved by itself.
That makes zero sense. The Tibetans still inhabit Tibet. Tibetan refugees can return at will.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and it is indeed Israel's problem, if it had gone along with UN Resolution 194 in the first place, this situation would not be
Tibetans can go back but they also risk detention and 're-education' by the Chinese government if they do so, which is why most have not
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)It seems to be the palestinian's problem, not Israel's. And res 194 was rejected by every Arab state who then waged war on Israel. To blame Israel for not unlaterally imposing peace is absurd. Had the Palestinians refrained from starting a war then there'd be no war refugees.
And most Tibetans are still living in Tibet, not as refugees so the parallel doesn't fit at all.
I appreciate the fact that you are open about the fact that punishing Israel takes precedence over the refugee's best interests. That is exactly my point TBW.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and then proceeded to unilaterally allow pretty much any person of the right religious/ethnic group take those homes as their own or razed the exsiting and built new ones all based on religious/ethnic affiliation
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)And ignoring that Israel offered to allow 100,000 to return in exchange for peace. Which the Arabs rejected. Interesting definition of unilateral there btw. It's basically the opposite.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)thanks keep going your making quite a case
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)As compared to the ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians and in the Arab world we see that despite a conflict split down ethnic lines Israel made exceptions on humanitarian grounds. As opposed to the picture you paint.
shira
(30,109 posts)Can't blame Israel for that.
You don't seem concerned about it if Israel can't be blamed, so you support that with your silence - correct?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Hamas needs to go as the ruling party of Gaza
but once again we see of transfer being used, a Hasbara technique out lined here
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
but your concern for Palestinian only where other Arabs are involved is touching
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)however are there laws that treat Christians differently from Muslims? or are the laws which are supposedly based on fundamentalist Muslim teachings applied equally all round to both Christian and Muslims however putrid we find them?
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Christians and Muslims in Gaza, no matter if I find them repugnant?
shira
(30,109 posts)Or cancelling Muslim holy days?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)of course they do not close Muslim schools or cancel Muslim Holy Days, that would be like Israel canceling Passover
shira
(30,109 posts)The PA also operates under sharia law but they don't make the same laws as Hamas.
Admit it, Palestinians who suffer under Arab regimes aren't as human to you as those affected by Israeli policy.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)is that apartheid too, funny you've never mentioned it
shira
(30,109 posts)They're accepting Syrian refugees, but rejecting those from Syria who are Palestinian refugees.
You support that too.
Just waiting for the excuse you have for that one...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Jordan has already granted citizenship to well over a million Palestinians
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and what I'm showing if it's as you claim apartheid it's not just Palestinian refugees from Syria, Jordan is only accepting Syrian refugees from Syria not Palestinians or Iraqis
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
shira
(30,109 posts)....for those poor Palestinians. Their misery agonizes you to no end....
Well, only if Israel can be blamed.
Wonder why that is?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's just that I reject the idea that most of the problem is with their own leaders, and the idea that maintaining the Occupation could ever produce a change for the better among their "leadership". Occupations DURING wartime(unlike the POSTWAR German and Japanese occupations by the U.S. and its allies)can't have that kind of effect...because the occupations, while the war continues, are themselves a form a low-intensity warfare and therefore, those who live under them are automatically going to resist and oppose anything the "occupiers" want.
Their leaders are no saints(not that Netanyahu is any better in terms of issues of common human decency)but the Occupation would still be in place even if their leaders were pure Gandhians. And even if they WERE Gandhians, you'd still defend the IDF using violence against them(even against nonviolent protesters).
Both countries could use far better leaders, that's a given...but you only raise the issue of bad Palestinian leaders as a deflection, as a justification for changing nothing in what the Israeli government does to Palestine(even though you know that preserving the status quo is the best way to make sure that Palestinians continue to HAVE leaders with bad motivations, because those kinds of leaders can only gain traction in times of rank-and-file hopelessness).
If Hanan Ashrawi and Mubarak Awad were leading the Palestinian side, you would STILL find some excuse to defend the continuation of the Occupation and continue settlement construction. This is because you don't want peace...you just want YOUR side to "win".
Unlike you, I don't care about who "wins". "Winning" is a useless and impossible concept in this conflict, because it wouldn't lead to anything positive for anyone and because neither side could ever be expected to be a magnanimous "winner". The only way to end this is with a face-saving compromise in which neither side is seen as vanquished and neither side gets to gloat.
And that requires negotiations, negotiations involving ALL the parties to the conflict-Because it isn't possible for either side to pick-and-choose who the leaders of the other side is, negotiate ONLY with its chosen "opponents", and yet still expect those who aren't negotiated with to just vanish. Everybody needs to be talked down and have some sort of "buy-in".
My agenda is peace and justice for both sides...and I don't hate either side(or any ethnicity or religion involved). You're just going to have to accept that and to stop demonizing me...because, while I am not a partisan of your "side" or the other "side" I'm the enemy of neither. Is that so hard to accept?
shira
(30,109 posts)...about Palestinians?
No flotillas, no UN resolutions, no mass protests........well, unless Israel can be blamed.
Be honest now.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts)..because either:
a) You didn't know how bad the situation was there
b) You don't care
c) Other
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)In fact every time you bring this stupidity up, your butt gets beaten soundly about how wrong your accusations are. I admire your spirit, but one would think you'd start paying attention.
Now, we've both discussed the topic of Israel and Palestin eall over the place - I'm sure you don't confine your discussions to DU any more than I do.
Tell me, in all your time, have you ever seen someone who insists that Lebanon is above question?
That Lebanon is a guiding light for good in the world?
That no matter what, Lebanon is always right?
Have you ever seen anyone insisting, against all odds, against every piece of evidence, that the Palestinians not only deserve oppression by Lebanon, but are actually bettered by it?
Have you ever seen anyone who insists that the Lebanese treatment of Palestinians is 100% falsified by "Pallywood," in an attempt to delegitimatize and dehumanize Lebanon?
Have you seen anyone insisting that critics of Lebanon, whether its the mainstream Lebanese government or the Extremist elements represented by Hezbollah, are trying to create the extermination of the Lebanese people?
Is there anyone insisting that Lebanon has to oppress and disenfranchise its Palestinian population, in order to preserve a certain demographic model?
If a Lebanese soldier kills a Palestinian refugee, go the news wires light up with pro-Lebanon commentators, syndicated pundits, university personalities and "smart guys" insisting that it's actually the UN's fault, the liberal media's fault, and that it was all faked anyway?
I've never seen that done. I've never seen someone rush forward to defend the deplorable treatment Palestinian get from Lebanon. Now granted, your mileage may vary - But I'll bet even so it doesn't vary much, and you can probably count the number of times you've seen this done for Lebanon on one hand. Without using your thumb.
On the other hand? I constantly see these arguments - and more! - made in defense of the treatment Palestinians get from Israel. There are swarms, mobs, herds of useful idiots pledged to promoting anti-Palestinian propaganda no matter the cost to their own character. people like you, who for some dumbassed reason do it for free, people like David Horowitz who do it for a paycheck, and people like Chuck Schumer who do it for donations. For these people, Israel is simply incapable of mistreating anyone, period. A deep-seated moral blindness and sense of privilege guides these folks to believe that "their team" is saintly, above question, and always right on every action it takes no matter how ethically bankrupt or intellectually unsound it might be.
Everyone's pretty much on the same page with regard to Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, et al - they treat the Palestinians like shit. We agree. Even you and I can agree on that, right? So there's just not a lot of discussion about it. After all, what's there to discuss, it'd just be a bunch of people agreeing, "Yeah, the Emir of Kuwait is a pucker-nugget." But mention how Israel treats Palestinains, and suddenly here and your sort come, ready to defend anything and everything to your dying breath. So you get a lot more discussion (to use a neutral word) on the subject of Israel-Palestine.
In other words? We're not silent about Lebanon's treatment of Palestinians. We're just really busy arguing with a bastion of despicable cretins who think ethnic cleansing is worth supporting, so long as their ethnic group is winning.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or I've seen that term used for this kind of stuff
shira
(30,109 posts)No UN action.
Your comrades here cannot even admit calling it apartheid in Lebanon. They make excuses for it rather than condemning it, as you see throughout this thread if you're paying the slightest attention.
======
The point is the movement that you support (all the anti-zionists and professional agony aunts) who proclaim to love the Palestinians so much....are virtually silent when it comes to their misery at the hands of others outside of Israel.
I'm just asking why, that's all...
Why no flotillas?
Why no UN action?
Why no public protests?
Why the reluctance to even call it apartheid?
Why the silence?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if you agree that the West Bank is not Israeli territory by what right do they expel Palestinians
from areas they consider desirable and by what right does the Israeli government fund 'Israelis' to move there?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43392
and I'll add to that by what right does Israel build settlements and claim State Land?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Right. Because no one questions Israel... Suuure.
In the Arab media, yes, of course. They are the closest thing to a democracy the entire region has next to Israel. Lebanon actually IS a model in many respects. Just not this one.
Has anyone ever argued this about Israel?
Constantly. In fact that the exact argument given by the UNRWA for keeping them in camps and not allowing them full citizenship in any arab states. That it would make them complacent in asking for the Right of Return that Israel owes them. And that it would result in the loss of their unique Palestinian identity.
No. I see people who blame their poor treatment 100% on Israel instead.
Of course. That's the standard line Hezbollah uses with Israel as the villain. The Litani river ring a bell?
Actually that's the official reason. Lebanon has a really delicate demographic situation. You really haven't bothered to even check to see if what your writing here is right or not.
Of course not. Because no one cares if a Lebanese soldier kills a Palestinian. No one cares about Palestinian deaths at all unless it is Israel that killed them. Black September ring a bell?
That is because you don't actually know anything about this conflict.
I can count 5 or more in this thread alone.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sure we do. However we have people such as yourself and Shira and Oberliner and King David and myriad others on and off DU who insist that to do so is an unconscionable evil, that all who question Israel are either one and all antisemites, or one and all lovers of terrorism. Granted, this doesn't stop me, because I don't give a damn what fascist, racist shitbags who cheer ethnic cleansing think, anyway.
The point is, there are no "Lebanon does no wrong!" cheerleaders to equal your own group of rabid little nutjobs who do the same on Israel's behalf. Seriously, if it weren't for you pooper-scoopering for Israel all the time, what on earth would any of you be doing with your time on DU?
You think the Arab media's opinion on something matters now? well, that's a swap. I don't expect it to last past this single line. Alright, let's say you're right. Does "the Arab media" dominate western - particularly American - airwaves? When you and I turn on the news, does coverage of the Middle east revolve around the awesome magnificence of Lebanon?
The western media does, however, fawn over Israel. A river of "experts" put their heads into our televisions and explain why Israel needs to do this to Palestinians, needs to do that to the Lebanese, who blowing apart an American's head in international waters is cool because Israel did it, and so on and so forth. It's not all glowing coverage of course, but the butt-nuzzling does outweigh the finger-waggling by a good margin. Curiously, western media coverage of Lebanon mostly revolves around the utter eviul of hezbollah and how any amount of civilian casualties is acceptable to "root them out." If it weren't for google, I doubt most people around here could name the Lebanese president - but they sure know who's in charge of Hezbollah.
Ever read the I/P forum, or do you just stalk me and end up posting here incidentally? I'm flattered if so,but honey you can't afford my rates.
Ah huh. Tell me, can you tell your ass from your elbow? I have to ask because after reading this, I have doubts that you are a smart person. UNRWA forbids Palestinian refugees from getting citizenship in Arab states, huh? Funny that so many of them are in fact citizens of other Arab states like Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia... funny too that UNRWA has no problem with Palestinians becoming citizens of non-Arab states. Interesting too that international law requires all members of the UN to offer citizenship paths to their refugees - which yes, Lebanon is in violation of.
It's cute too that you think that the Palestinaisn have to be goaded into wanting their rights. I suppose for someone like you, who sees Arabs as nothing different from any other dumb animal, such a notion isn't unexpected.
Once again, I have to suspect you aren't a very smart person. That makes me sad.
Though you know, for you and the other "Liberal Zionists" wringing your hands over the plight of the Palestinian refugees of Lebanon and Syria and Kuwait, there is a rather simple solution; end their refugee status. Allow them to go home. Of course, all your concern for their well-being evaporates immediately, replaced with sheer pants-browning rage, RAGE I say, at the very NOTION of ending their refugee status in any way that doesn't preserve and honor the mass murders and systemic purging that created both Israel's Jewish majority and the Palestinian refugees in the first place.
Which demonstrates that you value ethnic cleansing far over other humans' well-being. Not surprising, sadly.
Well, at least you recognize the similarities between yourself and Hezbollah. Maybe you're a little smarter than I thought!
I know it is. What's ironic? It's also Israel's reason for not ending their refugee status. Gotta preserve that eugenicist model of society, you know. Of course, you have a problem when it's Lebanon, but vociferously support the exact same argument when it's Israel. By the same token, someone who argues against Lebanon's bizarre ethno-religious tokenism that has frozen the nation in a weirdly paralyzed state since it's inception would likely have your agreement - but someone who argues against Israel's, you will rail against until the cows come home.
Remember what I said about people who argue that Israel is always right? Yeeeeah.
Of course not. However the news wires do light up to justify and defend when Israelis do it. Thank you.
No, it's because i've not seen anyone actually do this.
Really? You must be using an extremely liberal standard of determination. Well. I guess something about you has to be liberal, it might as well be that.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I realize the inanity of spending any real time arguing with you, but I'd like to point out how well you prove my point here.
Your understanding of Zionism and Israel rely on everyone who fails to oppose Zionism to be racist, pro-ethnic cleansing, pro massacre, fascist eugenicists. Thus, utterly regardless of what I might say or support in reality, you make broad based assumptions which cling to your narrow understanding. Of course this is all necessary because if there really were left-wing, liberal Zionists who openly critique Israeli policy and actually do support actions that benefit the Palestinian people (as there are, and as I do), then your whole ideology would be threatened.
Which is why when I point out things like how the UNRWA and the Arab League have made the argument that Lebanon's treatment of the refugees is for their own benefit (to prove wrong a direct point you originally made), suddenly it isn't Arab leaders and the UNRWA making these arguments. It's me. And not only that, I'm making them because I think of the Palestinians as dumb animals. In actuality, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of this argument as a critique. And showing you the error of your assumptions. Points lost on you in your need to hew to a specific script, no matter how far it might deviate from reality.
And I can say this with utter confidence because you're actually trying to tell me what my own beliefs are. Can you pause for a moment to consider the absurdity of that entire concept. You are trying to convince me that my beliefs are other than they actually are. Of course, you are really trying to convince yourself, but I'll avoid delving too deeply into the psychology of this ridiculous tactic.
Each point you make here ignores the fact that I was responding to and providing examples of how your original points were flawed. You misquote me at ever opportunity and skew the obvious points I was making to better make the argument that my beliefs center around a racist ethnocentric model. Nothing you state is actually, in reality, correct.
For example: "Of course, you have a problem when it's Lebanon, but vociferously support the exact same argument when it's Israel."
But in reality Palestinian's born in Israel are citizens with equal rights as guaranteed under the law. They aren't refugees denied citizenship, stuffed into refugee camps and denied access to healthcare, education and most desirable occupations. Point being, it's not the same. It is opposite. If Lebanon did what Israel did there would be no criticism.
You're convinced that western news media unilaterally supports Israel. Which suggests to me you never listen to the BBC or any European news sources. Nor is there any lack of well-rounded analysis of the international situation. Just get a copy of the New Yorker or Foreign Affairs. None of these arguments hold water in reality.
I hardly expect you to take what I say at face value however. Your entire ideology depends on the inverse.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No, not those who "fail to oppose Zionism." Damn, that'd be a lot of people because really, out of the seven odd billion of us on this planet, how many do you think really give a flying fuck either way?
I say this about advocates of Zionism. It's not possible to advocate Zionism without also advocating these ideas in tandem.
I was curious as to what this might entail. Did you know DU has a search feature? It's nice, even if it does dredge up nearly-unreadable messes from DU2. Most of what I found from you is run of the mill apologetics for Israel. How Israel "sacrifices" to give Palestinians all the freedom in the world, for instance. And of course, your belief that Palestinian land isn't really Palestinian land, because there really aren't any "Palestinians." Strange then how these people who don't exist "got their airport blowed up," then... And of course my personal favorite, this entire thread where you spend so much time and effort trying to sell separation of the races to me and that I'm a terrible, awful, vile person for not agreeing with your politics... without ever saying a single peep about the guy who's on record as referring to Palestinians as a cancer.
One I found was this. Cali and I might not always see eye to eye, but when she goes balls to the wall (forgive the terminology) and calls someone's posts "horrifying" I'm inclined to take her at her word.
So by all means. Show me your stiff criticisms against Israel and your tireless advocacy for Palestinian rights. Are they off-site, perhaps?
Well no, it wouldn't. My ideology, as relates to this topic, is that racism is an ethically and intellectually void construct that demonstrably harms every society it is found in. Racism hinders human progress, is a major cause of violence, and is a huge barrier to peace in any number of conflicts large and small. It cheapens the lives of its targets while also warping the psyches of its purveyors, creating a constant struggle for dominance over what, biologically speaking, is about the most trivial bullshit imaginable.
if you think patting yourself on th eback about what a great person you are is going to rock that boat, well, you must have some pretty fucking convincing arguments in favor of racism... And I think you already used all your big guns when you tried to sell me on racial segregation.
Well, you made the claim about the UNRWA, but did not provide any backing for this claim. You clearly expect me to just take your word for it - so yes, it is you making these arguments. And I trust Zionists talking about the UN or its bodies about as much as I trust a Ron Paul voter talking about the same subjects, for just about the same reasons.
Let's have a look at your argument;
"Constantly. In fact that the exact argument given by the UNRWA for keeping them in camps and not allowing them full citizenship in any arab states. That it would make them complacent in asking for the Right of Return that Israel owes them. And that it would result in the loss of their unique Palestinian identity. "
You are very clearly making a point that without outside agencies goading them, the Palestinians would just forget all about their Right of Return, "make them complacent" about it. Becuase of course, the Palestinians would never think about it themselves?
Also interesting that a self-professed advocate of Palestinian rights thinks mentioning Palestinians' rights to Palestinians is a bad thing.
No, you've told me and every other reader here, what your beliefs are, Shaktimaan. That's the thing about writing and literacy, you know, it's the transfer of thought through text. The text you attach your identity to is assumed to be your thoughts, your feelings, your opinions and beliefs on the subject you're writing about. You've been posting here since 2007 according to your profile, and as i mentioned, DU has a search feature that goes back allll the way.
Arguing against your very clear and frequently-stated beliefs is hardly absurd. if i'm misreading, by all means, give a correction - one better than "NUH UH!" if you can. I understand that sometimes what we write does stray a bit from what we believe, especially when tempers are up.
So there is absolutely no preference for Jews over nonjews in The Jewish State whatsoever, is what you're saying? That the laws are 100% totally equal in absolutely every regard, and are enforced with perfect equality at all turns?
But of course, uh... those refugees in Lebanon? They're refugees because Israel ethnically cleansed them and their ancestors from the territory it now claims. They remain refugees because Israel refuses to recognize their right of return, on basis of the "necessity" to preserve a Jewish majority in Israel. You know for the same reason Lebanon refuses to absorb them.
You criticize Lebanon for their refusal of the Palestinian refugees for demographic reasons. You endorse Israel for their refusal of Palestinian refugees for demographic reasons.
Lebanon has a responsibility as a member of the UN to abide by the UN treaties it is party to, including those regarding the rights of refugee rights which include allowing paths to citizenship and nondiscrimination, both of which Lebanon is in violation of, and which you criticize.
Israel too has treaty responsibilities, first and foremost the right of the refugees to return. It also has an obligation to compensate the refugees for property and wealth lost, destroyed, or confiscated from them - including those who decide to settle elsewhere. Israel is in violation of these rights, and you have nothing critical to say about it.
Again, quite an odd angle to take, for someone who claims to be such an ardent critic of Israel and defender of Palestinians, as you claimed in this post.
No, I'm convinced the western media gives more time, weight, and positive spin for Israel than it does for Palestine, and is more prone to give Palestine negative and dismissive coverage than it is Israel. There's a difference there, and I'd think someone who flaps their arms so much about being misquoted (after being word-for-word quoted in excerpt tags no less) might pay a little more attention to not fucking that up.
Has diddle to do with my ideologies, and more to do with the shit I've actually been seeing you post, and the duplicity and bald-faced lying you've conducted in our "discussions." Again, what you say is what you think, in text.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I admit to feeling torn about responding to this audacious post. On the one hand, I've wasted far too much time in the past carefully articulating my views and explaining to you exactly why your ideas are so wrongheaded and so offensive only to see them fall upon ears deafer than granite. I fully understand that nothing I write here has any chance of being honestly interpreted by you, let alone have any kind of positive impact. That said, I feel a strong urge to respond whenever someone accuses me of such odious and untrue crimes as arguing for the separation of races, policy based on eugenics or in support of massacres and ethnic cleansing. None of which have an inkling of truth. Not only do I disagree with your interpretation of my posts, I remain utterly mystified as to how you could have arrived at them. Ultimately, it takes someone who earnestly believes that to support Zionism is to also support eugenics, racism, segregation, fascism, etc., to think that anything I wrote was in any way an argument in support of race segregation. Not a single argument posited in this last post of yours has anything to do with my beliefs nor do most of them make any logical sense.
For example, just because I failed to provide a link proving that the UNRWA has made the frequent argument that keeping the Palestinian refugees in camps is for their own good, does NOT mean that it is really MY argument instead. It just means that I'm accusing the UNRWA of saying something. How you manage to misunderstand this very basic principle astounds me to no end.
The problem with putting this very agreeable comment into action WRT yourself is that literally nothing I put down will then be interpreted with its meaning even partially intact. When asked for your ideology regarding Zionism you responded with a paragraph about racism being bad. Racism and Zionism are entirely different topics, in case you never noticed. Now you may firmly believe that Zionism is a form of racism, but then THAT would be your ideology regarding it... not "Racism is bad." To try and make the argument that the two words are interchangeable is ludicrous. Worse is to just assume it.
No, your ideology WRT Zionism is that proponents of Zionism must also support fascism, eugenics, racism, segregation by race, mass-murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing, and that these things are mandatory beliefs to every and all supporters of Zionism. Have I left anything out?
You've repeatedly made false reference to my beliefs so to alleviate any doubts about my true views regarding this situation, I'll post them not as clearly as possible.
I believe that to leverage the stateless Palestinian refugees of Lebanon for political gain by discriminating against them by nationality and not allowing them citizenship or access to any critical services of the country they were born in is unconscionable. I do not believe that anyone who has never held Israeli citizenship or has failed to ever even set foot in Israel has the right to claim some form of return. Nor is right of return in any shape or form a concept held up as international law or as being part of some part of UN requirements. I laud Israel for granting full citizenship with all related benefits to everyone regardless of their nationality, race, religion or whatever, to any soul who is born within its borders. Nothing I've been discussing here has anything to do with refugee law or UN anything. It has strictly to do with the notion that a person born within a country's borders should belong to that country, and to discriminate against that person based on their race, religion or nationality is truly odious. To do so for political gain is even worse, as the UNRWA and the Arab League have been doing for decades. The fault for the refugees languishing in camps in Lebanon can be placed on no one besides the Lebanese government itself. Just as Israel is responsible for the Palestinians who live within her borders so the Lebanese government is responsible for those living within her own.
Israel does have a responsibility to reimburse those refugees who were hurt by the Nakba. That said, no state is under any obligation to undertake actions that would put its entire existence in jeopardy as welcoming 5 million Palestinian refugees to become Israeli citizens surely would. Few states have been born without some form of blood as the toll for establishing eventual peace and stability. And in the case of Israel, there were no words minced in its Declaration of Independence when the offer was extended to everyone regardless of race or religion to share in the building of a state where all would live as equals. This despite the fact that they were then engaged in a war for survival with the Arabs split down ethnic lines. Any compensation paid to refugees of the Nakba would be part of a far larger peace plan involving the entire region and would necessitate compensation for the Jewish refugees of Arab states and a comprehensive peace plan between Palestine, Israel and the Arab states, not to mention a sovereign and democratic Palestinian state completely disengaged from Israel with clear and free borders between them. This can only be accomplished via negotiations between Israel and Palestine's leadership and while it will be up to Israel to provide a fair offer it will entirely be on the shoulders of the Palestinians to build their own state from the inside out, just as Israel did.
Now there shouldn't be any questions regarding what exactly I think WRT this issue and the Palestinians in general. I have never said or even implied that the Palestinian people don't exist either as a national people or as physical "actual" people. They are clearly a nationality and should have the right to self-determination. Their nationality is new, for sure. It came into existence as a reaction to Zionism. That doesn't make their need for self-determination any less pressing though and they have just as much right as any national group to form their own nation-state, provided they are able to.
Any questions?
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)The charge is meant to demonize and villify, not educate. It hardens attitudes on both sides and is just outright wrong. I mean really, really wrong. Not just wrong on a technicality, but outright, unequivocably wrong. In apartheid-era South Africa, non-whites were denied political representation, banned from living or working in white areas, and could not attend the same schools or even sit on the same benches. In Israel, arab citizens are legally ensrined with equal rights and can and do vote, own businesses, and serve in the legislature and courts. Even in the occupied territories the analogy doesn't work at all. That's not to say that there aren't injustices, but to call them apartheid is reminiscent of PETA comparing factory farms to death camps. It makes confronting the real issues harder when sensationalism like that is spouted.
It's all about delegitimization and stirring up hatred, and every decent person on both sides should be appalled that such a comparison is being made.