Poll: Most Israelis object to withdrawing to pre-1967 borders

[azurnoir]

Of the 602 people questioned, 55.5% said they were against Israel agreeing to the 1967 lines, even if there were landswaps which would enable some Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to remain part of Israel.

....................

Some 67% of all Israelis said they would also oppose Palestinian demands for a return of even a small number of refugees who either fled or were driven away when Israel was created in 1948. They were also against compensating the refugees or their descendents financially.


On one of the other issues facing negotiators, the question of whether Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem should become part of a Palestinian state, some 50% of Israeli Jews said they were against the idea.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4414452,00.html

[aranthus]

1. Was this ever in doubt?

The Israelis aren't stupid. They know what's at stake and that it's their head on the block. Serious people are not going to agree to the '67 borders and they aren't going to agree to right of return.

[Scootaloo]

2. Odd that only the concerns of the invading force are considered valid

And by using a completely nonsense argument to make that argument, no less.

[aranthus]

3. I have no idea how your post connects to mine.

Can you please explain what you are talking about and how you got there?

[azurnoir]

4. here's what strikes me

How many times over the years have we seen polls proving how much the Israeli public wants a 2 state solution, but no details none nada zip, now we have some idea as to what the Israeli public has in mind and it looks to me to be a rubber stamping of the situation as it currently is, with perhaps Israeli troops withdrawn from area B and only area B

[oberliner]

5. Did you actually look at the poll?

The whole thing with the exact questions, wordings, and results.

Or are you just going off this article?

[azurnoir]

6. yes I did and there were may I add absolutely no surprises at least IMO

the Israeli public supports a 2 state solution, but in a very limited manner

[oberliner]

11. Can you provide a link?

Thanks in advance.

[azurnoir]

12. what ever are you talking about?

a link to the poll in Hebrew? can you read it? I can not

[oberliner]

13. I asked if you read the poll and you said "Yes, I did"

Where did you read it?

[azurnoir]

14. so glad you asked I read some of the questions @ +972

http://972mag.com/did-the-israeli-public-really-flip-flop-on-peace/77073/

[oberliner]

15. So it turns out you haven't actually seen the poll?

Even though you wrote above that you had.

[azurnoir]

16. so it turns out you discount +972 no surprises there

Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

+972 did enumerate questions asked in 2 polls on the same subject

[Israeli]

7. put not thy faith in polls azurnoir

....thats basic politics and you should know better .

A referendum would change everything .

[azurnoir]

8. Would it? by how much?

would the Israeli public really willingly give up the settlements and accept the settlers all 400,000 of them back into Israel proper?

Would the Israeli public willingly share or give up East Jerusalem?

[Israeli]

9. good questions ...

and I dont have an answer for you
for that answer we need a referendum

then we get back to Scootaloo's point .... is it really up to us ?

dont the Palestinians have some say ??

Lets both take it to a referendum..... let the people speak .

One thing I can tell you for sure azurnoir is that the Palestinians are as sick and tired of their polititians as we are .

[azurnoir]

10. Honestly if it goes to referendum by either or both sides

it is a kiss of death IMO for any Peace deal, you do have a point is it really up to Israeli's as to what Palestinians do or don't get as their country? From a moral or intellectual view point, the answer is obviously a resounding NO, however from the POV that Israel is now in possession of over 60% of the West Bank and all of East Jerusalem, the answer is probably

BTW a couple of years ago I asked another of our Israeli posters about the willingness or welcome Israeli had for the settlers moving back to Israel and the answer I got was no, not so much, and actually I'm softening that

[Israeli]

17. I'm not so sure about that azurnoir...

it is a kiss of death IMO for any Peace deal

With regard to this ..

BTW a couple of years ago I asked another of our Israeli posters about the willingness or welcome Israeli had for the settlers moving back to Israel and the answer I got was no, not so much, and actually I'm softening that

It depends on which settlers you are talking about , the hard core like The Hilltop Youth and those that live in Hevron I would hate to see living anywhere near me.. biggest bunch of racists you could possibly imagine .
But they are not all the same azurnoir......did you read this ? :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1375385593/

[azurnoir]

18. yes I realize that all of the settlers are not alike that said

how would Israel cope with nearly 400,000 new arrivals, wouldn't that cause further economic stress, especially in the area of housing?

I hope you're right about Israeli's being willing to agree to a Peace deal that handed over most of the West Bank to the Palestinians more over I hope the Palestinians would agree to a Peace deal that Israel allows them

[azurnoir]

19. so ndo you believe that the Israeli people would vote in favor of a peace deal

if it came to a referendum? If so what kind of Plestinian state do you think they'd allow the Palestinians?

I'm quite curious because here you do not seem all too positive about anything of substance coming from these talks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113445778

[Israeli]

20. yes I do azurnoir

in answer to :

so ndo you believe that the Israeli people would vote in favor of a peace deal

in answer to this :

I'm quite curious because here you do not seem all too positive about anything of substance coming from these talks

thats because I have no confidence in this Gov .
I dont trust Bibi I dont believe him ..... look at this :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4415134,00.html
and
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4415421,00.html

he is being pressured by Obama and the EU , talking out of both sides of his mouth like he has always done .

he wants a referendum , see :
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/israeli-pm-says-hed-want-referendum-peace-deal

so lets have one
and I'm not worried about a referendum azurnoir because I know that the majority of Israelis have had enough of the dream of a Greater Israel .

[azurnoir]

21. I understand your hope as it is immediately important to you as an Israeli

but a few more questions, do you believe that the Israeli public will approve a complete pull-out?

or will the Israeli government put forth a limited withdrawal plan that will be approved by the Israeli people but rejected by the Palestinians, in which case mission accomplished, no deal, no withdrawal, and it's all the Palestinians 'fault, which is what I believe the Israeli government is aiming for '

[Israeli]

22. as always the devil is in the details azurnoir

how will the referendum be worded ?

if it includes the Golan Heights ...??? ... thats problem number one .

a complete pull-out?....... problem number two , you keep mentioning 400,000 settlers ....thats not realistic and will never happen , why ?..... because you are counting those in the “settlement blocs” that are strung along the Green Line.
That will be fixed by territorial swaps.

IMHO ..... biggest problem of all is Jerusalem .... bigger than the Green Line and bigger than the question of ROR .

Yes I live in hope ...am I pessimistic ....sure I am .... but you never know what might happen :

http://972mag.com/referendum-on-peace-agreement-just-might-pass/76304/

What ever happens the Palestinians will blame us and vice versa.

[azurnoir]

26. of course the devil is in the details that's the point

as far as I can see the Golan is not an issue for the Palestinians it is however for the Syrians as it was Syrian territory in the first place

East Jerusalem is another item that will be a deal breaker

and yes I keep mentioning a complete pull out, the UN as recently as last November recognized all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as Palestine, not what ever Israel feels able to give up, so why on Earth would you expect the Palestinian people to gratefully accept whatever Israel is willing to give?

now as to fault from a Western POV it's not that the Israeli's and Palestinians will blame each other it's all about appearances and Western opinion, do you really think that the EU declaring that they will no longer include the West Bank settlements in joint projects, without so much as a tsk from the US is unrelated to Netanyahu agreeing to talks? No its not that alone there is other stuff too, but it is more about appearances IMO than any other factor

[azurnoir]

34. also check this out

http://972mag.com/neither-two-nor-states-nor-a-solution/77086/

I tend to agree

[pelsar]

23. im confused

Honestly if it goes to referendum by either or both sides it is a kiss of death IMO for any Peace deal

so what the people want is not relevant to you?.....you believe that someone should dictate to the people(s) what they should accept as "justice" and the proper solution - and they shall have to accept it?

[azurnoir]

24. Because from what I gather what Israeli's think the Palestinians deserve as a state

and the fact that the UN already recognized all of the West Bank and E. Jerusalem as Palestine, there will be quite a gap between what the 2 peoples will be willing to accept

Now what I could easily see happening is Netanyahu saying "here it is take or leave it" to what he's willing to allow the Palestinians as a state and regardless of what the Palestinians say putting it to referendum then if Israeli's accept it and Palestinians reject it-problem solved they had their chance, they said no so it's ours

or IoW's same sh^t different day

[pelsar]

25. and the Palestenians?.....

you mentioned the UN...you mentioned the israelis...now what about the Palestenians? they don't have a say? their a "non entity?

and Netanyhu?..israel is a democracy, hes not there permanently.....

[azurnoir]

27. I think I covered that the Palestinians in my comment

or why should Palestinians accept less than the UN recognized as Palestine?

As far as Bibi gos he was re-elected for another 4 year term 8 months ago, so no he's not there forever, but he's there for the duration of these talks

[pelsar]

28. who says the Palestenians agree with the UN?

without a referendum or elections why are you assuming the UN/you know what they want or what they will agree to?

[azurnoir]

30. again as to what the Palestinian will agree to depends on the opinion of who's talking doesn't it?

There are those here who say they want all of it Israel too, and will attempt to create an image of the Palestinians as the next Wehrmacht, but my point is on an international basis the entire West Bank and E.Jerusalem has already been recognized, why should they take less than that?

[pelsar]

31. i dont assume to know what they want....

hat the Palestinian will agree to depends on the opinion of who's talking doesn't it?

so whats wrong with hearing what they want and not making any assumptions?

I still dont understand why you're against a Palestenians refererendum to actually know what they want and are willing to settle for....

how does the UN know what they want?, what they are willing to accept? or do you assume that whatever the UN says they will do?

[azurnoir]

32. What I do know is what Abbas asked the UN for, that is a starting point as to what the Palestinians

want or will accept, isn't it?

[pelsar]

35. is he not a dictator?

i didnt ask what you know..i asked why your against a Palestinian referendum....simple question isnt it?

and your defending dictators as knowing whats the "people want?....did you have this same opinion about mubarak? and the shah and hamas in gaza?

[azurnoir]

36. I never said I was against a Palestinian referendum or an Israeli one for that matter

what I did say was that both peoples would have to then agree on what Palestine would look like, something that IMO is quite unlikely to happen

as to Abbas being a "dictator" what took you so long? That said he is right now the person who is doing the talking the person who the US and Israel are willing to recognize as the the Palestinian leader

[pelsar]

37. so your against the "people" having their say...

Abbas is a dictator.....in case you didnt notice those kind of govts have stability problems....and whether or not the US or Israel recognize him as the "leader" hardly means i or the Palestenians have to be stupid as well.

so do the Palestenians recognize him as their leader?

[azurnoir]

38. Did you read what I just wrote?

and once again Abbas is the leader for now perhaps there will be elections and Abbas will be either re-elected as he was in 2005 or not, now are you hoping that the 'progressives' here have a memory hole problem? Abbas was elected to be the leader of the Palestinian people by both those in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas won the majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in 2006, in 2007 Hamas took Gaza via a violent coup

There have not been elections for a new Palestinian Head of State since due to the division between the West Bank and Gaza, and may I add that I find it 'odd' that you would constantly refer to Abbas as a dictator when indeed he was elected to his position but never not once have I ever seen the he's a dictator claim made about Haniyeh who got to be head of the Gazan government by force, making him actually the dictator, but then again appearances and impressions are all important aren't they?

[pelsar]

39. I'll let you correct yourself.....

Are you claiming that abbas remains the legal head of govt despite the fact that his term ended long ago? and that the Palestenians agree to that?

that he is their legal and legit leader?

and Haniyehy....i thought it was obvious that he too is a dictator..but then i dont speak PC, so wouldnt know if he is considered one by the progressive society....(but i have learned that dictators can be acceptable....correct?)

btw who do the gazans see as their leader? the one to make they decisions?

[azurnoir]

42. there is nothing to correct accept your seeming to wish that Abbas be delegitimized

as the leader of the Palestinians while saying little, until it pointed out to you that is , of the actual dictator here who would be Haniyeh, as to who the Gazan's recognize as their leader, living under a dictatorship they do not get many choices do they, not even to have an election in both Gaza and the West Bank to elect new leaders

Now you could say the Palestinians in the West Bank are stuck with Abbas too, they haven't had elections either since 2005, and now I can understand why you maybe in favor of an election held only in the West Bank for a nw Palestinian leader, it would serve to further cement the separation of the 2 wouldn't it?

None of this is PC it is what the reality is at the moment period

[pelsar]

43. so answer...simple simple question

do you believe the west bankers see abbas as their legit leader.

[azurnoir]

44. I believe that is divided some do some don't simple as that

but the same could be said for the US, there are some who do not see Obama as the legitimate leader off the US, same could have been said for Bush2 also though

[pelsar]

45. so the lack of elections...

as far as you are concerned have no effect on his legitimacy....

and the fact that the gazans are cut off, also have no affect on his legitimacy and ability to make decisions for the Palestenians....and this is all because the US and Israel agree that he is their leader

is that a good summary?

[azurnoir]

46. It is reality pure and simple, doesn't matter whether I agree or not

it is what we have to deal with and BTW it is more than the US and Israel that recognize Abbas as the Palestinian leader, the entire Quartet does to

In short it is what it is

[pelsar]

47. what it is...

is that all of these groups have decided for the Palestenians who is their legit leader......while the Palestenians themselves apparently have no say in the matter....

and so if there is some kind of agreement, are the Palestenians supposed to agree to this agreement of which they are not even represented...not to mention the gazans

just asking for your opinion

[azurnoir]

48. ah well if there is indeed a referendum then the Plestinian people will be agreeing or not

won't they, same goes for Israel. It is reality that because Abbas was the duly elected leader of the Palestinians albeit new elections are overdue for reasons already mentioned, then yes, same goes for Netanyahu, who was re-elected quite handily in fact very recently-he gets to represent the Israeli people, now would a referendum pass, that depends on what he offers-and due in part to his re-election along with Bennett the more generous his offer the less likely the chance of it passing

[pelsar]

49. thats why there should be a referendum...

so people who hold your opinion and that of abbas and of the quartet and of israel and of the US will be overruled by the Palestenians themselves. Whether or not you agree to their opinion or whether or not it makes peace "further away" is irrelevant.

having the opinions on the table, clear for all to see, is the only way to move ahead. Giving legitimacy to leaders who are not in fact their legal leaders but made legit by their "western masters" may be the "progressive way" but it sure has little to do with what the actual Palestenians may want.

either you want to hear to what the Palestenians themselves want or you don't....apparently you have no problem if their opinion is not heard

[azurnoir]

50. I think both the opinions of the Palestinians and the Israeli's should be heard

however should they be followed is another question entirely, if we left every world decision up to the people very damn little would ever be accomplished would it? Not like it is now either but it would would be even less IMO

[pelsar]

56. in general i agree...

f we left every world decision up to the people very damn little would ever be accomplished would it?

and i dont actually believe what the "people" say in this or any referendum should be followed. The idea of leadership is to take the info and do the smart thing thing, not the popular thing.

BUT....the info taken from a referendum will clarify what has to be done. For instance if for some bizarre chance most of the Palestenians vote that they want Haifa, Jaffa and Tel Aviv as well...from an israeli point of view, that means the Palestinian leadership has a lot of work cut out for them, to re-educate their population that, that is not going to happen.....or perhaps not re-educate them and clarify that, that is their position.

and just for fun, it would/should change opinions around on these forums-

Same for the Israeli side, if its clear that the settlements are in fact not popular or popular that too have a direct affect on the next voting in of the govt... a direct affect and on the region as well.

[PDJane]

29. Tough. Those settlements are illegal. Period.

They should move back where they were given the land, give up the jews only roads and the settlements that ruin palestinian farmland, and give the control of the water table back to Palestinians.

What they have, they took, against international law and public opinion. They have continued a vicious occupation that has nothing to do with security and everything to do with genocide.

Enough.

[pelsar]

33. genocide?

its people with statements like yours that makes a legit discussion about israel impossible....

so perhaps we should ask the others here if they all agree with you about israel committing genocide?...what do you think?

[PDJane]

40. You may do so. What do you call it when you try to obliterate a people and take over their land?

Canada has done it. The United States has done it. We, in Canada, are trying to get our government to admit it.

When it is made illegal by the laws that the US helped write, then it is simply illegal under international law, and no matter what you call it, whether genocide, or permanent displacement, or experimentation on a captive peoples, whether you call it fighting a legal insurgency against your illegal occupation, or stealing the resources they need to live, or lynching of a people who have done nothing wrong but be on land you want for your population.............I don't give a flying monkey's butt.

It's illegal, get it?

[pelsar]

41. genocide...

i believe communication is best when its uses definitions based on the dictionary....clearly you seem to use words for their emotional reaction. Its great when your in elementary school or as freshmen at college, but beyond that it serves little purpose- making up definitions.

so what do you think...she we ask the other posters here if they agree that israel is committing genocide?

[PDJane]

51. the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial,

caste or religious group. That's what Israel is doing. Don't try this stuff with me.

I understand what I am saying, truly. The fact that you don't see it that way doesn't make it wrong, it just means that you don't want to accept it.

Not my monkey, no matter how much support you accept from the brainwashed.

[pelsar]

55. of course your wrong....

The fact that you don't see it that way doesn't make it wrong,

its doesnt make a difference how i see it, or how you see it...its a matter of the actual facts, the actual actions on the ground. The actual definition, not your emotional need.

...why dont we use the definition/standard that your using to accuse israel of genocide on other countries?.....give me a few examples.....

and i then shall apply them to what the Palestenians have done, what the Americans do, what the Brits have done, what French are doing, what the Syrians are doing, what the Egyptians are doing, what the South Africans are doing, what the tunisians are doing, what the Zimbabwaes are doing, what the russians are doing, the Lebanese...

and we can probably say that they too are all committing genocide according to your definition......

It will be fun to learn that the Palestenians are also attempting to commit genocide against the jewish israelis won't it?
_________

so please list this standard of your (a few incidents will do to serve as the example)

[PDJane]

57. Genocide is being and has been committed all over the world.

It's neither new nor unusual. The difference is, you see, that international law has made this particular form of genocide illegal. It has made the settlements illegal. The British did it, the Germans did it. Germany got very close, thanks to a charismatic leader and assistance from US industry. Don't forget that the Eugenics movement helped a lot there, too. South Africa tried very hard to do it, and succeeded in some ways, the French have done it, and the US continues to do it. Spain has done so; that was part of Isabella's auto da fé.

That doesn't excuse Israel. It's a smokescreen. Moreover, Israel should be above that particular tactic.

The Palestinians are not committing genocide. They are engaging in a perfectly legal insurgency, under those international laws that the US helped write. Remember those? The ones laying out the rules for occupation? The ones banning the kind of settlement activity and resource stealing that Israel is engaged in? The ones that say that the civilian infrastructure should be left intact and repaired? The one that says that farming should be an activity allowed to the people?

You are blowing smoke, and it has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

[pelsar]

58. examples please.....

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2013, 02:16 AM - Edit history (1)

The Palestinians are not committing genocide
You are blowing smoke, and it has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
___

its simple...give me a few examples of this genocide...just the genocide and i shall then apply them to Palestinian actions and we can then decide if the Palestenians were and are attempting to commit genocide as well. (and of course we'll include their actions in 48 and before and their "friends as well&quot

just a few examples of the genocidal actions:


that international law has made this particular form of genocide illegal
they're are different forms?
___

of course if you want to say that u have different standards for the Palestenians, and that the jews also get a special standard, at least clarify that, so we'll know you have a "flexible definition based on ethnicity and genes (and we all know what that makes u....)

and just for "fun" since hamas (according to your definition as i understand it) is now committing genocide against its own christians, should they not be stopped? and who shall stop them?

[shira]

59. Her view isn't fringe, unfortunately

Asked to respond to the statement that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians,” (in a 2011 poll conducted by Friedrich Ebert Stiftung) 63.3 percent of Polish participants expressed agreement, as did 48.8 percent in Portugal, 47.7 percent in Germany, 42.4 percent in Great Britain, 41 percent in Hungary, 38.7 percent in The Netherlands, and 37.6 percent in Italy.

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

The old blood libel vs. the Jews.

Intended in part to make the haters and supporters of the Shoah guilt-free.

[oberliner]

52. Turns out this is BS (as expected)

Excerpt:

The bottom line is that when it comes to two-state negotiations and the Israeli public, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. What’s the “whole”? Israelis support a two-state solution and the general agreement under consideration; but totally lack confidence in the process of getting there.

http://972mag.com/did-the-israeli-public-really-flip-flop-on-peace/77073/

[azurnoir]

53. No not really, nowhere does it say Israeli's do not support a 2 state solution

it is what those 2 states would look like or as another said the devil is in the details, and for all the trumpeting of how much Israeli's support 2 states we've heard over the years not a wit as to what they think is good enough for Palestinians, this is the closest it's come to that

[shira]

54. You're one to talk, saying you support 2 states but being for full RoR.....

Glass houses and such....