Israel/Palestine
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Israel govt. paying students to be on-line propagandists.
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201308152316-0022983Israel is taking their media relations battle online by enlisting Israeli college students to bolster its image. In exchange, students will be paid in scholarship money. This is part of the Prime Minister's Office and the National Union of Israeli Students' plan to participate in online public diplomacy.
The government plans to set aside three million Israeli shekels to fund this project. Students involved will be expected to post content on various social media sites that boosts Israel's public image, but they will not be able to publicize their involvement with the Prime Minister's Office.
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shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)although the aphorism "you get what you pay for" comes to mind.
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That's an odd assumption to make. Of course, when you're online, who can tell, I guess. 
shira
(30,109 posts)....these volunteers?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What motivates them?
Well, in my experience the main motivational factor seems to be that so long as you call your position "Pro-Israel," you can get away with saying the most bizarre, hateful shit about Arabs and Muslims that you can think of. And before you start flapping your arms and honking, do keep in mind that "In my experience" covers ground far, far beyond our little dysfunctional family on DU.
However, we must also keep in mind this is experience on the internet (with one exception) and so Gabe's Law of Internet Anonymity might be in play:
shira
(30,109 posts)I don't know whether you're joking or serious. It appears you think that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist, bigoted, hateful, scummy, shitbag piece of crap. That's your default position, isn't it?
FAIL.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No, I'm completely serious. Even about the Greater Fuckwad Theory (even if it IS funny.)
And no. I only think racist, bigoted, hateful, scummy, shitbag pieces of crap are racist, bigoted, hateful, scummy, shitbag pieces of crap. This is based not on whether someone disagrees with me, but on whether they express racist, bigoted, hateful, scummy, opinions that cast them as a shitbag piece of crap.
And like I said, this is my experience, and with the exception of one person, that experience is garnered from the internet.
shira
(30,109 posts)...of racist, bigoted, hateful, scummy, shitbag pieces of crap. Some worse than others, but that's generally the case in your view.
Tell me, how about Zionists from the late 30's and early 40's who couldn't find refuge anywhere and who were denied entry into Palestine? If you had the final say back then, would you have welcomed these white European racist Zionists into Palestine to murder, pillage, rape, and steal from the poor natives........or would you have sent them back to Hitler?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Can't say that you've done anything to shake that perception.
You're conflating "Zionist" and "Jew" again, Shira. It's really not that confusing, I'm not sure why you keep having that difficulty.
shira
(30,109 posts)Would you have let them in or turned them away and back to Germany?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm not a Zionist, after all
shira
(30,109 posts)...and murderers attempting to get into Palestine in order to take advantage of the poor defenseless Palestinians. Some here actually see it that way.....which leads me into believing anti-zionists are terribly racist and bigoted, at least all the ones I've chatted with.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No surprises there, I suppose.
shira
(30,109 posts)I've been told by numerous posters here that it would have been better for Jews to get killed in Europe rather than go to Palestine to build a free democracy.
It's not that I think you're a liar, it's just that I think you're have really bad luck with telling the truth.
shira
(30,109 posts)That post #93 was in response to the last paragraph of my post #91. Pretty clear to me, and as you'll see after that, Pelsar.
I can think of 2 more when you're ready.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I see you trying to put those words in his mouth, just as you tried to do with me on this thread.
So. Let's see these other two.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 19, 2013, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)
...if he were in charge back then. So he would've sent Jews back to Europe. What other way is there to interpret that other than the Jews trying to escape Europe should eat shit, die, and enjoy the ovens?
What would you have done?
Here's another conversation. Let the page fully load. Notice this guy is cheating when answering but his answer nonetheless is NO...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/depts.washIngton.edu/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358320#358388
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Also, accusing someone else of "cheating" on an ethics question. You're a real mess, Shira 
While this "Kayece" person (who? You're dragging up DU2? Sheesh) might be "cheating" by your standards... the position they take is completely factual. The decision to block Jews from Palestine was not decided by the British governor of the Palestinian Mandate. it was a foreign policy decision made from the Home Office. That is to say, if you have the authority to decide whether Jews go to Palestine or not, you also have the authority to decide if they go to Britain, or any other Commonwealth member at the time, as well. I actually felt like pointing this out to you, but i figured it would be pedantic and you wouldn't comprehend it anyway, so I just placed myself as that governor of Palestine, deciding whether or not to ignore orders from the Home Office. In which case "refugee" trumps "orders" in my head.
Now you seem to like this question so let me invert it a bit for you.
You've rather frequently pointed out the treatment the Jewish refugees received in Palestine, both from the British governorship and the Arabs. I'm sure you're familiar with Haj Amin al-Husseini's name. I suspect you're probably less familiar with the economic and political climate already existing in the territory independent of anything involving Jews, but suffice it to say that being an indentured population by the British, after promises of independence, wasn't sitting very well with anyone, and immigration sure as heck wasn't helping the general mood.
Why would anyone send Jews here? Yes, it's better than being in Czechoslovakia in the same period, no doubt. But that's low praise. Of course as we both know the British had decided "No Jews to anywhere!", so the people fleeing to Palestine were generally doing so clandestinely - against those restrictions. So if you're going to put in the work to sneak into a territory that has barred you from entering... Why not go to one that is at least a developed nation that shares at least similar culture and language to the one you're running from and thus familiar with? One that, while it's not happy to receive you, will probably let you hang out somewhere at least until the problem is over.
If the interest is actually saving Jewish lives in their hour of greatest need... there were certainly far better and more practical places than Palestine. It would have taken more effort, more resources, more risk, to get Jews to the demonstrably less safe territory of Palestine, than to get them to, say, Sweden. There's a reason Raoul Wallenberg is a hero and Rudolf Kastner is a worthless cock. Chucking refugees off to Palestine seems to be an act of needlessly sacrificing people and resources in an effort to make a politicla point, to me.
shira
(30,109 posts)Funny how you accuse others here of "cheerleading" nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but denying that your fellow like-minded "liberals" here would've turned Jews away and back to the ovens.
Israel was ALREADY recognized as the Jewish homeland. It doesn't matter whether or not YOU think they had no right to be there. THEY believed they did and so did the world back in the early 1920's when they made that call.
I simply asked your fellow "liberals" here (what a joke) that had they been in charge as supreme ruler of Palestine, would they have let Jews in. I didn't tell them to follow British policies of the time. That's irrelevant to the question. They're pretty clear in that they think THOSE Jews were colonial threats who would've murdered, stolen, and tossed out Arabs there due to their racism.
This is your "liberal" anti-zionism on display. I'm certain if I asked most, they'd all say the same fucking thing.
They'd have sent Anne Frank back in a heartbeat.....that apartheid, racist, colonialist. Who does she think she is?
shira
(30,109 posts)Azurnoir also said the same thing - no Jews into Palestine. Just ask her.
========
And again, what would you have done?
Take in 100's of thousands of Jews from Europe into Palestine, or send them back to the ovens? You're in charge of Palestine (and ONLY Palestine) so you make the call. Save 100's of thousands of Holocaust era Jews or flood Palestine with these "neo-con, land-thieving, murdering, apartheid colonialists"?
Give us the pro-Palestinian "LIBRUL" answer to that one.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Even by my low expectations of you, that's kinda derp, Shira. Sheesh. Pay attention.
Also what's with this "u" and "yr" bullshit? and "librulz"? C'mon, don't post after snorting butane, please.
Also? I took my time because I was busy explaining mammoths and the ecology thereof to people. Sorry, you're just not top of the list Shira
shira
(30,109 posts)....is an oxymoron. Like "liberal naziism"...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)There's a reason "I know you are but what am I?" is from a comedy act.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:38 AM - Edit history (1)
Let me help you.........No, they're not.
Neither are those who advocate for a RoR that would lead to war and 10s of thousands, perhaps 100s of thousands of lives lost. Your fellow advocates/activists admit such a loss of life would occur, when pressed....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113416921
Not liberal, right?
I'll help you again.....No.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)"Azurnoir also said the same thing - no Jews into Palestine. Just ask her"
so why don't you link me to where I said please? .
shira
(30,109 posts)...that you also wouldn't have taken Jews into Palestine if it was your call to make (as ruler of Palestine - and nowhere else but Palestine). You'd have "forced" or tried shaming the USA to do so. I'm sure others tried back then too, to no avail.
Just admit you wouldn't have taken them in.
No evasions.
You can do it...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)like I said almost but as we all know almost doesn't count
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts)...and wanted save hundreds of thousands of Jews going into Palestine, you'd have said so by now.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but seem not to able to put your where your mouth is , I asked for proof of your claims about what I've said, so far all you seem able to do is keep repeating the same lame stuff
shira
(30,109 posts)You can state very clearly that had you been in charge of Palestine back then, you'd have done your best to save Jews from the ovens and would have taken them into Palestine. You'd have done what NO other jew-hating nations were doing back then.
It's easy.
I predict you won't.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)prove what you claim about me is true or at this point I must ask for an apology
shira
(30,109 posts)Typically, when some anti-zio here accuses me of something false, I don't necessarily challenge them to provide an exact quote. I comment on it right away. No evasions. No games.
You won't do that b/c your actual position is that with you as leader of Palestine back then, you'd have turned the Jews away just like the rest of them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and expect me to prove you wrong? No prove you are right or apologize, enough said
eta usually I ignore your accusations because they are meant to distract from something else (is that the case here?)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)that motivated rich Saudi playboys to give up their Mercedes and join al-Qaeda, I suspect. The emasculating, alienating and deeply lonely tendencies of modern life, particularly the lives of comfortably-off, aimless young people that yearn for some sort of raison-detre, some way to escape the bourgeois banality of their everyday existence.
I suppose if you're such a young person, particularly if you're socially awkward, and not much chop with members of the opposite sex, becoming an internet warrior is very appealing, and is a way to instill some sense of mission into your life. After all, you probably spend all of your time on the computer anyway.
shira
(30,109 posts)...you just provided?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I have to admit, I was a bit aimless as a youngster myself. The clarity and idealism of radical politics is an appealing thing to the young.
The hasbara brigade here is mostly American. There are a couple of Brits, whose politics are generally far more nuanced than those of the Americans. There are a couple of Israelis that appear from time to time. While they are very cool on the Arabs, by and large, they are generally much more pragmatic in their opinions as regards Israel itself.
My impression of the Americans, including you, is that you are inclined to view Israel in purely romantic terms. This is not just a Jewish thing, its a universal human proclivity. Even my younger relatives tend to romanticise our old villages in Lebanon. They think it is like the set of the "Cheers" sitcom, sometimes you want to be where everyone knows your name. They think that everyone there lives lives of perfect solidarity and community, a state of mind which is admittedly encouraged by the fact that the whole extended family comes together whenever they go on holidays there and they make a big fuss over them. A bit like a Birthright tour for Lebs.
Of course, real life is not like that, and I think this goes some way to explaining why something like 40% of the North Americans that migrate to Israel go back to America within five years.
I expect that it also has something to do with identity politics being so prevalent in the US. You can't reinforce your own identity without reinforcing someone else's. A bit like Newton's third law of motion, any action causes an opposite reaction. If you essentialise yourself, you essentialise the other.
The growth of the evangelical movement was in many ways a direct response to identity politics by white Protestants. Whereas Protestants had once considered themselves quintessentially American and were reluctant to relinguish this gatekeeper status, as US political culture became more pluralistic they needed their own specific identity by which they could participate en masse as a meaningful political unit. I suspect that Israel provides a similarly-functioning rallying point for US Jews.
I suppose what I am saying is that US hasbara brigade has everything to do with American society and American Jewish identity and very little to do with Israel. To be honest, I don't think that the average Israeli gives a toss how many American post-adolescents are engaging in internet warfare on his or her behalf, and for sound reasons.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)
I'd say we're here voluntarily, feeling obligated to counter round-the-clock antisemitism. Nasty job, but someone has to do it. Since they don't stop, neither do we....
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)then your ranks would be made up by Russian Jews, who actually have direct experience of it, rather than US Jews, who by comparison have exceedingly little.
The crisis in American Jewish identity has come about because of the near-total collapse of anti-semitism in Western society, which in turn has led to assimilation and intermarriage. You aren't railing against round-the-clock anti-semitism, you're desperately trying to promote what little that remains in order to try and encourage a sense of solidarity amongst yourselves.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the antisemitism publicly bemoaned on liberal forums such as this one usually is Arab antisemitism, as you've pointed out there is very little going on in the US these days, if pressed usually something that supposedly happened 60 years ago or more will be coughed up but little else, yet we are told by presumably Americans that Israel must exist as a safety net because you just never know, it isn't really safe for Jews anywhere but when pressed further or do you really feel unsafe in the US -crickets or something from 60+ years ago will be sited
The end result of this is that Pro-Israel and antiArabism/Islamiphobia have become rather joined and what is presented is a liberal rallying point for women's and Gay rights, however IMO it is Islamiphobia under the aegis of liberal concern, because only punitive actions seem to be acceptable solutions, groups that within the Arab/Islamic community that advocate for those rights are usually dismissed out of hand unless of the name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Most Americans probably believe that at one time signs advertising work to everyone except Irish were commonplace. Fascinatingly, many Irish and non-Irish Americans alike will claim that they vividly recall such signs routinely being posted in newspaper advertisements and shop windows, even though actual photographs of the signs are extremely rare.
At some point, this collective folk memory jumped the ditch and became commonplace in Australia. In fact, Paul Keating, the Irish-Australian former Prime Minister, attested to such signs being posted during his youth.
In fact, thorough searches of newspapers of the time have failed to turn up any more than a tiny handful of occasions in which the words "No Irish" were used in any job advertisement. That is not to say that they did not exist, but they were *exceedingly* rare.
There are similar collective memories involving Jews - for example, the mythical signs saying "No Jews or dogs on the beach".
shira
(30,109 posts)1. Do you find that to be a genuinely significant issue for Jews of the mideast?
2. America is safe, yes. But antisemitism is on the rise in Europe. France's chief Rabbi tells Jewish men not to wear yarmalkes in public. Here's a recent article...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4396159,00.html
3. You mentioned Islamophobia, but why shouldn't people be concerned about radical Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and other leading oppressive Islamist Jihadi groups (pro-sharia, women in veils, death to gays, jews, christians, etc)? What leading human rights organizations are advocating against that?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)support the Palestinians or their "cause" as you call the Palestinians quest for their own state and thanks for bringing up exactly what I said IMO you use Gay and women's right to demonize the very people you claim to bve supporting and should I add that the idea of using women's rights to demonize all Muslims originated on Rightwing sites during the run up to Iraq invasion
Didn't you once call Palestinian Gay Rights activist Haneen Maiki an idiot?
Tell us in detail please shira just how the occupation of Palestine helps Palestinian Gays and women?
Oh heck skip detail just something anything
shira
(30,109 posts)You completely dismissed Arab and western European antisemitism, as well as the Islamist variety (which is part of a bigger issue since gays, women, christians, and blacks are also targets). Copts are leaving Egypt in droves while the Morsi's MB burns their churches. But you chalk up any mention of this to Islamophobia. That's the problem with you and yours. I'd love to be corrected, but it appears none of your fellow advocates care about any of the above issues. Hence, the need for internet keyboard warriors. You're a perfect example - thanks.
And yeah, Maikee is a fraud. This "advocate" feels bringing up gay rights in the territories is Israeli hasbara, so she doesn't bring it up. How fucked up is that mentality? Oh wait, you share the same mentality....
The occupation was FAR kinder to Palestinian gays (than Hamas or the PA) when Israel was in charge of law and order there. They didn't target and persecute gays in the territories, now did they?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but of course you claim that's fraudulent, no surprises there and apparently you can't say just how Israeli occupation helps Palestinian women and Gays, we should just take your word for it that it does, but once again there must be examples, show us, why can't you do that, and then you call Haneen Maiki a fraud?
as to EU antisemitism yes it's revved up, not saying it doesn't exist but that it's made to seem bigger than it is, and usually aimed at the Eurabia meme, with very special attention paid to Western Europe but barely a peep or a whisper about parties such as Jobbik in Eastern Europe, even by the Weisenthal Center who chose to call Abbas's 2011 UN address, as the most antisemitic happening in 2011 over the Jobbik's rise to power, why is that?
shira
(30,109 posts)You posit that Jews who have little to no direct experience with antisemitism shouldn't concern themselves with the phenomenon. Is that what you're trying to say? Do you find it strange that American Jews would feel some obligation to support fellow Jews who are the targets of hatred in Israel or elsewhere?
I agree that a lack of antisemitism is linked to assimilation and intermarriage, but I find your theory about wanting to promote solidarity (rather than fighting antisemitism) laughable.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well okay then, and you say American Jews as though you are a spokes person or will you you speak for nthe overwhelming majority?
shira
(30,109 posts)You know, the "humane" types that are only interested in the mideast if Jews can somehow be blamed.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)by a French court for libel
On August 14th, a French court in Perpignan certified the innocence of three members of the BDS movement (Boycott Disinvest and Sanction). While it isn’t necessary to enter into the specifics of this fanatic organization, it is essential to understand that behind the facade of a pro-Palestinian group, a radically anti-Semitic message can flourish. With its managing members defining anybody who opposes their techniques as “Jew Lover” and vilifying time and again the Jewish people, the supposed anti-Zionism of these campaigns is hardly hiding their true message: a relentless campaign against the Jewish people and the State of Israel. The tragedy is that the EU official boycott of Israeli businesses and companies operating in the West Bank comes as an implicit blessing to these organizations, thus providing an institutional backing to a mob-like anti-Semitism.
As it was the case in the 1930s, Western Europe in undergoing a deep cultural crisis stemming from the downturns of its economic downfall and from the ravages of cultural relativism. This enables fundamentalist figures to appear as mainstream public personalities. The end of Ramadan in the Italian hub of Milan was marked by a speech by well-known Jihadist Imam, who got the official authorization to address tens of thousands of people. Infamous for praising child suicide attacks, hatred against Jews and the virtues found in Islamic Jihad, this man shared the stage with members of the Italian Parliament who by their presence implicitly showed their support to this person’s ideas, thus encouraging Muslims and others to take him as an example. Radical Imams are free to pollute the social sphere with their speeches filled by hate throughout French Mosques while public prayers highly disrupting everyday life are a current show of force of these groups.
The third pillar of Western European modern anti-Semitism is the less visible one but the most efficient and certainly the most ancient form of crowd manipulation. Crowds are pushed to accept the boycott of Israeli products and to listen to the outbursts of radical Islamists because the overall media condition them to interiorize and consent to a certain dose of anti-Semitism. When on June 26th French courts condemned Philippe Karsenty in his lone fight for truth in the al-Dura affair, any person interested in unfolding the media orchestrated lie should not only have been shocked by the court’s decision but also by the little attention this affair is obtaining among French citizens. Viewed as a ‘Jewish Affair’, people simply don’t care about the truth especially if this truth upsets them in their preconceived ideas in regard to the State of Israel.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4419701,00.html
shira
(30,109 posts)...by constantly attacking the Jewish state, 24/7/365, non-stop. Those who yell the loudest about "genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, colonialism, ZIO-NAZIS, Jewish supremacism, Jews running the world, Jews in space......
Okay, not the last one, but you know what I mean.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)only in a more long winded, albeit civil manner and of interest are you claiming that people who call the settlements colonialism and call Israels actions towards Palestinians apartheid do so because they hate Jews and no other reason?
shira
(30,109 posts)....to dehumanize Jews, rant about Jewish Supremacy, equate Israelis to Nazis, believe that Zionists control everything, and not give a fuck about Palestinians or anyone else in the mideast unless Jews can somehow in some retarded way be blamed.
It used to be that I'd give these people the benefit of the doubt, that maybe they're not anti-semites. Not anymore. I'm convinced they are & it's up to them to prove they're not IMO.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs apartheid to be antisemitic, unless they prove to you they are not
sounds much like the flip side of the coin of anyone who considers Zionists to be Islamophobes and antiArabists
shira
(30,109 posts)...I never fail to find MORE evidence of their antisemitic views (ethnic supremacy, zionists running the world, dehumanization, support for resistance, indifference to Palestinian genocidal incitement).
What else can I conclude?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)usually its based on economics....basically they're trading in their nice suburban home, SUV, etc for a small car, cold apartment, salary that provides for little savings.
After 5 years the romanticism has died out and the harsh reality hits them in the face.....this is their life now.....So they return to where its more comfortable.
__
and if they make it through the 5 years..there is another crises coming up at around 10years, where its "now or never" go back while you can or stay forever....
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)but my impression is that every emigre is fleeing something. In the case of Russian Jews, it is easy to point to what they are fleeing:- political instability, corruption, a wretched economy. In the case of American Jews, it is difficult to imagine what they might be fleeing, other than their own personal problems, which of course does not paint a resounding picture of the American emigre newly arrived in Israel, with their two shipping containers full of clutter and neuroses.
Of course, back in America, they could sheet those personal problems home to being part of a small, historically beleaguered minority sect. But now they are in Israel, and everyone is Jewish. So what do they do now?
Portnoy's complaint comes to mind:-
In the process of realizing that he shares his Jewish identity with everybody else in the country, he experiences a sense of loss: he no longer has a special status. It has become impossible for Portnoy to excuse his eccentricity with his minority status; he is no longer part of a minority. These circumstances reveal that without his realizing it, the distinction between the majority of American gentiles and American Jews has become a necessary order in Portnoy's mind. This dichotomizing frame of mind is all the more remarkable because Portnoy constantly complains that his parents perpetuate the same distinction.
Portnoy, the American Jew in Israel
Claudia Görg, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz
http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/IFR/article/download/14331/15408
Israeli
(4,139 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)I do not know of a single american-israeli and i know hundreds.... who would not agree with that statement..
Instead, he feels an increasing opposition to the Sabras who look down on him because of his bourgeois American behavior
quite the opposite, the sabras in general appreciate the sacrifice the americans made, love talking english to us, and are just as bourgeois if not more than the avg american who actually gave up materials to come to israel.
and after 10-15 years with kids in school or the army they are well "cemented" in israel and have met enough israelis to no longer differentiate nor care who is and who is not a sabra.....
Israeli
(4,139 posts)your culture is not my culture.
I am not you .
of course you know hundreds ...and of course you dont agree,
you were born and raised in America .
Until I arrived here you thought Uri Avnery and many others from my culture were Liberal Zionists ...... you know next to nothing about us pelsar... so keep your illusions ...for that is what they are .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)this "us" tell me who this "us" is....is it the minority of the minority that calls itself "post zionist"....then yes I know very little about that particular group, i have now read up and am not impressed, (your fooling yourselves into thinking that the western left will accept you as one of their own-while they accuse you of genocide) btw, I also know little about the anarchists in israel......but that is not subject.
the subject is sabras and the american immigrants...of which i know a tremendous about, given that i live with sabras and work and play with americans and sabras...thats over 25 years with both groups...both cultures
i would say once again, whereas you stay and live in a very small bubble, i apparently have a much 'larger one."
apparently most of israel doesnt have your culture either
Israeli
(4,139 posts)shines thru on every post you make pelsar ....
as if this is something to be proud of :
and i've gotten out of dozens of driving tickets and many other small favors because of my american accent.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I"ve had more mud on my boots than you've ever seen......or will ever see
and i would bet you have a far more bourgeois life that i do...i would bet your kibbutz per person pays a far lower percentage of taxes than i do, receives far more govt subsidies that i do, you probably work far less hours per day.. you have a nice pool to swim in every day...open green areas for quality of life, a nice pension plan all set up, a health care clinic (including dental) probably within a 5 minute walk with nurses on call 24/7, health care club, those little golf carts for everyone who has the slightest problem, etc.
anybody on your kibbutz have to worry about their work, their clients or who would take care of the family why they were doing their 20-45 days of reserve service?......I didnt think so....(and your calling me bourgeois?)
between the two of us, your life is far more bourgeois that mine is...you keep trying, but us in Israel are all too familiar with the insulated elitist kibbutz culture....fact is i DO know your culture.
as if this is something to be proud of :
and i've gotten out of dozens of driving tickets and many other small favors because of my american accent.
and in case you missed the reason for the story was to show that not only are americans NOT looked down upon in israel, the fact that we came here with our options, is actually appreciated even from the police....
Israeli
(4,139 posts)do you pelsar ?
then why are you suprised when we dont like you ?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)what i dont like is your attitude...as if some how your "more israeli" than me, better than me (and others here)...your not.
and i was just showing how between you and me, your far more bourgeoisie than I'll ever be, with all the luxuries of life right at your feet
I have no problem with working kibbutzniks, I've got family on one. Of course they dont act like elitists (as you do), in fact they are part of the small percentage of the kibbutzniks that actually work for a living and carry the other parasites (they're words) to keep the kibbutz going.
I have no problem with any particular group in israel, be they right, left, short or tall... I do have a problem with those who believe they are better than me, especially when i have the credentials that prove otherwise.....
___
you dont have to like me, or those that i represent, which is the vast majority of israelis (kibbutzniikim, moshavnkikm, city people), But don't kid yourself, I know your culture very well, its an attempt at being an "elitist", except that it doesn't work with me,
i've got the university degrees and the mud on my boots.....not to mention the hours of volunteer work, to throw that particular aspect back at you.
the real difference between us, is that i can respect those that are different from me, that i disagree with, cleary you don't
King_David
(14,851 posts)You come across as being elitist, more righteous than any other Israeli or Jew, you alone are 'understood' by these western 'leftists' and no other 'Common average Israeli's are".
Very Elitist !
Israeli
(4,139 posts)you are both very similar in many ways ..... including your background and culture.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And you resent that background and culture ? My first cousins who are Sabras and gasp Zionists have the same culture .
You really did create for yourself a new elite "post Zionist" culture .
Ha ha ha
A very lonely culture I'm sure , now you need some followers .
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)or at least I recall thinking so at the time.
I don't imagine that there are too many sabras living where you live, surely?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)yes definitely...i live an house that i would say is similar to america in the 1970's...got two avg cars, two TV's...several computers..wireless phones that we can never find and two professionals working more than full time.... I would say we fit the middle end of the middle class bourgeois family in israel...and there are about 15,000 sabras living here as well.
our friend here Israeli however...."beats me" in turns of having a "richer life style." Apparently shes living in the 'country club" type of life. Imagine living in a gated community in florida with all the amenities at your feet......partially supported by my taxes.
and she was calling me bourgeois.......
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)and mostly Ashkenazi besides?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its an old community from the 1800's...
so there is quite a mix....the new comers from the last 15 years are mainly ashkenazi (hi tech/professional), but the older spheradi/haredi have more kids,...an obvious anglo saxon presence, given its "cuteness" and transportation accessibility (lots"return to the states as well)
a few Ethiopians thrown in, sent here by the govt and German Christians, who come from germany to live here for many years - urban kibbutz style (and speak, dress and look german) since jesus is suppose to return to earth from here..or something like that.
____
(israeli would like it here, the older ones, who can trace their roots to the 1800's love to look down upon the new comers..those that came in 1901 and later)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I think you listed your town in Israel once or twice. I just mentioned it as it is not really the sort of place where you would expect to encounter the broad rank and file of Israeli society.
I read a recent story about working class Israelis having to increasingly go AWOL from military service (and occasionally get jailed for it) due to financial issues. It does seem as though the social gaps are getting quite wide over there.
Its a good thing that you have the perennial Arab menace to keep the people united against a common threat. One can only hope that that will last forever.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)like i mentioned, the older towns have a far larger broad based population than do the newer ones, hence there is a mix here.
your under the impression that everyone does military service when in fact its about 50% with a relativly low AWOL rate. If one doesn't want to be in army, its not hard to get out of it, and if one does has economic hardship, the army many times frees you up to work as well, has a soldier to work with you and your family to help solve the problem as well... The israeli army is far more than a directed killing machine and serves the society as well
army jail is usually reserved for actual crimes.....
as far as the arab menance..perhaps talk to our neighbors, sneak in to their countries, risk your life and teach them all about being a progressive and how it will make their lives better. Do what the Christian missionaries do, the mormons, what the jews did, be wiling to risk your life to make a difference, I'm sure you'll know which groups to avoid, you know the ones that will gladly cut off your head.
then the israeli army will lose much of its 'reason to be" see, you can try to make a real difference.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)At its core, the question of payment for military service – especially in the face of rising prices, growing poverty amongst hard working families and an ongoing collapse of the state’s welfare, housing and healthcare systems – is linked to the current crisis in Zionism, one which I referred to as a choice between militarism and solidarity: will we as Israelis fight to reestablish the old racist and militarist social contract in which Jews’ service in the army buys them a certain (and quite minimal, at times) level of social security, or will we choose to form alliances of all poor, working and middle classes – Arab and Jewish alike – to form a new system of solidarity, equality and a fair economy?
believe it shaayecanaan, unlike others who would like to pull the wool over your eyes, Haggai Matar knows what he is talking about .
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)because i sure couldnt find any other than grade school writing:
according to the article:
one "source" claims 90% of the soldiers needs help
another source claims 60% needs help (and implies is universal)
so which is it?...or did the writer decide not to actually do some serious research and get some real numbers?
perhaps there are some units where they soliders dont need help?
_________________________________
and i really hate, "yellow journalism...its the same thing as lying:
14,000 in jail.....70% for desertion...and an "high percentage" (60% 40% 20%??? for economic hardship)
final number: max 5,800 or maybe 2,800 out of a standing army of 175,000 which equals: 1.5-3%, add the reservists and the number falls even more
now from a social perspective of a small country thats a large number.....but it remains maybe 1- 3% of the army and how long are they in jail for? a few days or months or years, and after does the army let them out early?...either the author didn't do the research or did and decided not to put the info in.
_________________________
And since the army does in fact change and react to the needs of its soldiers there are now programs being prepared to allow the non combat soliders finish their duties earlier so that in fact they can work....(which annoys the combat soliders who dont have that option)
is linked to the current crisis in Zionism, one which I referred to as a choice between militarism and solidarity:
gosh i must have missed the current crisis.....is there a drop in volunteers to the army? and i hadn't realized that if you join the army you can no longer have any solidarity with the "people"....who decided that?...is this part of the "post zionist" torah? the holy writ?, please tell me where i can learn more about these holy writings and their laws....I'm sure "raful kids" (kids with real problems the army takes in to help the learn society skills) will be glad to know that they are no longer part of the people
and i shall pass on this crucial info to the various youth groups so that, they will know, that helping the poor and the needy is no longer possible if they join the army.
no this is not a serious article, its classic yellow journalism, not worth the space on the server.....
Israeli
(4,139 posts)I dont own a car and my house would probably fit into your garage ...... all these "things" of yours mean nothing to me .
The Kibbutz you left ..... do they know how you feel ?
They gave you a home and all you do is bad mouth them .....and not just on here I might add .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i told you..i actually do know your culture. The kibbutz provides you with a working car, all gassed up. You dont have to worry about it not working, the annual test, maintenance...etc.
all these "things" of yours mean nothing to me .
that is the classic line said by someone who actually has everything they need and doesnt have to worry about their next meal or how they will be paying taxes. Come on down from your elitist life style, join the other 99% of the country...and then we will see what "these things" mean to u.
They gave you a home and all you do is bad mouth them .....and not just on here I might add .
actually I lived on one for many years as an "outsider" meaning i paid for my room and board, as well as participated in the communit, but was never a member (though they were surprised to see us go)
the kibbutz" as a choice. Its a great way to live, for some..... And I am in awe of those who started them, taking a philosophy and actually applying it....and then adapting to the changing society. These were/are and are some of israels best citizens.
at the sometime I 'm also aware of the cost to live in a kibbutz....for what used to be growing up in the childrens homes and the nightmare so many of these kids went through (for those that dont know, the parents "took their kids" back home many years ago and the childrens home no longer exist). Its a haven for those how don't or cant work....and it does require one to live within a small community with much interaction (actually much less now than what used to be)
i'm very aware of the pros and cons of kibbutz life.....and the pros and cons of suburbia, just dont try to sell me that your life style is not 'bourgeois" in your county club
Israeli
(4,139 posts)you just think you do .
So you were never a member .... thought as much .
And I am in awe of those who started them, taking a philosophy and actually applying it....and then adapting to the changing society. These were/are and are some of israels best citizens.
Thank you pelsar , you do realize that you are talking about my grand-parents .
I loved the children's houses pelsar , so did my kids .
ours still exist ..... so shows how much you know .
you rented a room on one kibbutz .... and now you are an expert on all of us 
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)
yes there were some who loved the childrens houses....apparently and those include my family who grew up in them-didnt. And if your kibbutz still has the communal childrens homes its one of the very few that does.
actually i moved in to my wifes place on the kibbutz with my kibbutz member wife and started to raise a family there....
i get the impression that you've never lived off the kibbutz and hence are just a passive observer, i was part of the kibbutz life for many years....so yes i do have a good idea of what its like to live on an established kibbutz
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)first I have been following this exchange as it's actually interesting, however after going on about sacrifice that Americans who make Aliyah make what you describe is pretty much the typical life of any middle class American family, add climate to that and it becomes typical Southern California middle class family, the 'hardships' you describe when first arriving in Israel , really are not that different from the 'hardships' any young person, couple, or family experience when first starting out
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)it did seem to me on my brief forays in Israel that English ability was an important indicator of class in Israeli society.
I am of Arab appearance and I imagined that most Israelis would identify me as being Arab seeing as I had no Hebrew ability; however I found that speaking English tended to overcome this. Most policemen/airport workers/people in authority would tend to wave me through once I started speaking English in the most imperious/WASPy accent possible.
It seemed to me that most Israelis hated to be perceived as having inadequate English.
King_David
(14,851 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)as finding a warm place for their jewish identity....no longer do they have to explain yom kippur to their friends at work, etc They no longer have a need for traditions since the whole country has its own version of those traditions...its nice sense of belonging......economics not being relevent in the beginning.
____
and the sabras are not looking down upon the americans (exceptions noted here)....some may wonder why they came, but there is an acknowledgement of sacrifice that the americans have made.
I am impure—and also . . . tired . . . of never being quite good enough for The Chosen People!"
Its the americans who have a slight insecurity complex to the israelis who have been in the army and has the illusion that they are all commandos, its a 'glue" that they dont quite get, are not a part of, most dont understand the ease at which so many israelis walk around with automatic weapons (when on leave from the army).... but its not the israelis who are looking down upon them.
fact is this is one of the few countries that americans are actually appreciated....on the 4th of july american flags actually fly, as they do on israeli independence day as well
and i've gotten out of dozens of driving tickets and many other small favors because of my american accent.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)If you mean that the Israelis are grateful that you relinquished your decadent American lifestyle in order that you might slum it with the natives, then I am skeptical. It certainly runs counter to my own experience of Westernised Arabs and how they are perceived in Arab societies.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Israeli's actually appreciate america.....its role in the world, its democracy, its support......and those who are willing to "slum" it with the locals.
I actually have no idea how the israeli arabs look upon us, since my interactions with them is more superficial.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)He so clearly does not like slumming with the natives .... not my kind and not yours ...
Quote pelsar : ....
I actually have no idea how the israeli arabs look upon us, since my interactions with them is more superficial.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so tell us ...when did your parents arrive..and from which european country....
Israeli
(4,139 posts)which european country....then we'll ask around and see if your considered a "native...."
as some like the late journalist: Helen Thomas sure dont think so.... nor do so many of the arabs (even those that came after your grandparents)
Israeli
(4,139 posts)probably the same place your grand-parents came from .....
only mine did not take the easy route of America like yours .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)are you so insecure in your "israeliness" that you have to say:
only mine did not take the easy route of America like yours .
my grandparents were braver than your grandparents" nay nay nay
-----------
you've clearly failed to prove to me that your "more israeli" than i am, quite the opposite, apparently i know more about israel and have had more interaction than you have, despite my few years here.
so know your attempting to show that your grandparents were better jews or zionists than mine were? and here you are being a post zionist...i guess your grandparents would be turning over in their graves if they knew what had happen to their zionist ideals on their granddaughter- intstead of fighting for it, as they did, you totally turned your back on them
maybe you shouldn't use them as a point of pride?
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Aliyah
pelsar
(12,283 posts)sent their kids and grandchildren to fight for israel...a zionist country
seems to me if they were as brave as you say they were, they should have had the guts to leave once it was clear that israel was going to be established based on zionism
guess they weren't so brave after all.
___
so you still believe your more "israeli" than us americans, ethiopians, russians, holocaust survivors?..still believe your a "native" and that the western left sees you as a native?
why dont u poll the few people here what they think of your "nativeness"
Israeli
(4,139 posts)quote pelsar :
And I am in awe of those who started them, taking a philosophy and actually applying it....and then adapting to the changing society. These were/are and are some of israels best citizens.
Not all Israelis are Zionists pelsar ...... its about time that you accepted that .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i have an appreciation for anyone who is willing to live by their philosophy and ideology no matter what the costs...and starting a kibbutz in the 1900's was one helluva of a gutsy thing to do...and they worked, got mud on their boots and kept at it. And for those kibbutzim that still survive as kibbutzim, i still believe they are great places for some and not for others. But I also dont need the illusion....
Your living in a modern day country club with all of its amenities...something that 99% in this country dont have.
i dont care if your a zionist or not..what you are not is a "native".....and for bizarre reason you believe your some kind of "blue blood elitist" that is looking down upon the rest of us. (never met one of you before, rather odd)
I doubt my neighbors in the arab town of Pharades would see you as "native" nor would your 'friends" here on the western left, your second aliya connection means little to them..your living in the illusion.
post zionism, outside of the university and a few kibbuztim and a few kids living in shinkin street, doesn't have much of a following, its simply an elitist movement that is kidding themselves. Reminds me of the german jews in the 1930s who believed they were past all that old anti-semitism and were living in the new age....and they too thought they were better than the others...didnt help them much and it wont help you much either
Israeli
(4,139 posts)....we view ourselves more like the minority of Germans who stood up to fascism during the 1930's ..... and we all know what happened to them .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)having done some reading up on the post zionist movement...its been around a lot longer that i knew. What stands out in terms of 1930s germany is that the post zionists, the "assimilated intellectional german jews" and the nazis all had a similar goal...to rid the world of the jews.
they all had different ideas as to how to do it, but the overall goal was infact the same......
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)which was to rid Germany of Jews. Hitler himself was on record as saying that he would happily send the Jews to whatever country would take them:-
"I can only hope and expect that the other world, which has such deep sympathy for these criminals (Jews), will at least be generous enough to convert this sympathy into practical aid. We, on our part, are ready to put all these criminals at the disposal of these countries, for all I care, even on luxury ships."
With both the United States and Britain refusing to take in substantial numbers of Jews, the conference was ultimately seen as a failure. Most of the countries at the conference followed suit, the result being that the Jews had no escape and were ultimately subject to what was known as Hitler's "Final Solution to the Jewish Question". The conference was seen by some as "an exercise in Anglo-American collaborative hypocrisy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vian_Conference
pelsar
(12,283 posts)whereas the nazis/post zionists/'enlightened german jewery" wanted the jew gone, the zionists wanted to jews to be stronger
there are always similarities between groups: nazis had uniforms, the IDF has uniforms, etc etc etc. The philosophy however concerning the jews and their ultimate position on the earth is what makes the post zionists
what ever happen to "self-determination? If an American Indian group came up and attempted to start a group to eliminate the American Indian cultures, I would expect the progressives to join them, wouldn't you?
Israeli
(4,139 posts)with no foundation whatsoever .
This is the post zionism that I represent and that I belong to :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html
Next you will be calling Shulamit Aloni a liar to .
There are many Israeli post zionists ....not all agree , but they exist today .
see :
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/12/meet-the-post-zionist-zionists-sivan-fridman.html
I have no idea what you are talking about and FYI I was born in 1950 long after the nazis had been defeated .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Shulamit is a liar? well all politicians lie, its part of the profession being a politician, so she is nothing special in that regard, though i do believe meretz having never really been in power probably "lies" less than those in power.
i've been reading up on post zionism..it started before you were born and apparently its goal or at least the ones i've been reading about is the elimination of the jewish identity. But you know that, your part of the post zionist movement.
clearly you believe there are variations of "post zionism" just as there are of zionism. Infact i would bet you the two actually overlap in certain areas and some post zionists have simaler ideas as zionists and further more, you'll probably find (if you dare to ask) that even some zionistic settlers have similar ideas of their zionism to your post zionism.
philosophies with tolerance tend to include lots of people.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)... for a very long time and she does not lie !!
She is probably our best known post zionist pelsar along with her son .
Give me some facts ... show me what you have read ....with a source please .
I suggest you start reading Tom Segev , another of us , start with his book :
Elvis in Jerusalem: Post-Zionism and the Americanization of Israel
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but she was a professional politician at one point in her life and during that period, as do all politicians, they attempt to manipulate us with the use of the information they have......
otherwise known as lying. Since shes no longer a professional politician i suspect she has less of a need to attempt to manipulate us zionists.
btw i absolutely hate, i mean really really hate, hero worship of politicians and "movement leaders"...To begin with they require oversized egos to even dare to climb on top of a podium and tell me that "they and only they" an change the world" and i have a fundamental problem with that.
Aloni may be better than some, worse than others, but she requires an oversized ego to be preaching to me for the last 50+ years
______
i spent last night doing lots of reading....
this one is very intellectual, very boring, but loaded with information
http://www.acpr.org.il/ENGLISH-NATIV/02-issue/epstein-2.htm
this one is more of a lightweight but simpler
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/post-zionism-doesn-t-exist-1.224973
Israeli
(4,139 posts)...... understand how you can vote Meretz .
As for this :
"i spent last night doing lots of reading....
this one is very intellectual, very boring, but loaded with information
http://www.acpr.org.il/ENGLISH-NATIV/02-issue/epstein-2.htm
this one is more of a lightweight but simpler
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/post-zionism-doesn-t-exist-1.224973"
The first link I will read when I have time ......the second link was answered by Uri here @
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1282429124/
next time I'm at Gush Shalom HQ's I will ask about this connection between " post zionists and nazis " ..... first I have ever heard of such a thing .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)whereas i have non party affiliation outlook..... i am far more independent politically, which is something i did bring with me from the states.
the post zionist and nazi's is a bad correlation...i was just taking to the extreme. Its like saying nazis and idf are simaler because they both have uniforms and army boots.
whereas some of the post zionist want to rid the world of the jewish identity, they also want to rid the world of "identities" altogether, a nice but naive and foolish notion.
____
it not hard to vote for meretz....its not hard for me to vote for labor...i probably couldnt vote for likud but did give bennet some serious consideration given his social agenda...which to me is more important than the security one, which i think is going nowhere.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)I have a very strong Israeli identity...... and a very weak Jewish one .
I'm an atheist .... your religion means nothing to me .
I voted Avoda when Rabin was PM ..... I even voted Kadima once, after Arik removed the orange flag fliers from the gush ..... remember the blue and orange ribbon wars ?
I would never vote Likud ....and not in a million years would I consider voting for Naftali Bennett .
Its the age old Left v Right , secular v religious .......your a strange combination of both .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I dont agree with the right vs left, secular vs religion because its too simplistic and it requires intolerance to survive. It requires very strong dividing lines that tears apart a society and restricts it.
what happens when you have a religious liberal/lefty? I'll tell you what you'll say: you'll say such a thing cannot exist. Just as posters here claim a liberal zionist cannot exist...and for that matter a liberal post zionist cannot exist either since nationalism is a right wing concept.
thats the intolerance that your divisions represent. I am a strong on security and just as strong on the social issues of equality and seperation of religion and state...that means i can team up with people on the right sometimes and team up with the post zionists as well. I have a jewish identity as well as a secular one.....
i just don't like leaders, groups, parties I would make a good anarchist, except that, that too is a group.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)israeli apparently believes she is as "native" just as the arab population...
He so clearly does not like slumming with the natives .... not my kind and not yours
her ancestry goes back to the early 1900's
in your eyes does that make her a native?
King_David
(14,851 posts)She considers herself the only righteous Jew in a world where all the other Jews are not.
She comes across as thinking she alone amongst all other Jews "gets it" fits in and is accepted by the "Elite anti Israel leftists and rightist " because amongs the Jews ... She "gets it " and we "do not get it."
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I would say that she was more native than you, but not as native as the Mizrahi, or the Samaritans, or the Arabs.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I'm an import..my grandparents were imports to canada and the US...most of the israeli population is imported, (arabs included)
i suppose it was people like her that made the holocaust survivors feel like shit, that they actually survived the holocaust when they arrived in israel...must be their ideology.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)( and your opinion is by far a minor minority opinion )
But you have Zero knowledge on Golah Jews ....
Israeli
(4,139 posts)I said you dont have have much knowledge of Israeli politics .... and you dont .
Noam Chomsky knows what he is talking about ( as an example ) but you are no Noam Chomsky.
You want to believe my opinion is by far a minor minority opinion ... be my guest .
Do you really think we care what you think ?
I admit I have " Zero knowledge on Golah Jews " ..... why do you think I should ?????
King_David
(14,851 posts)What you said about Chomsky proves it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Seems like spreading Palestinian propaganda is similarly all about solidarity and community - as well as privileged white college kids feeling like they are making a difference.
I wonder how Palestinians feel about the propaganda activities being pushed on their behalf by white American college students.
Do you think that the average Palestinian gives a toss how many American post-adolescents are engaging in internet warfare on his or her behalf?
King_David
(14,851 posts)See any problem with that statement ?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Ask them.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)You make note of 927magazine, and you recently made a more passing note of Al Akhbar (tho' I'm unsure whether or not you mistake Al Akhbar with Al-Manar.) This is totally legit.
Most certainly hasbara memes should be exposed and discussed as such.
Most certainly Al Akhbar should be recognized as a secular (IMO) and socialist (again, IMO) oriented Lebanese source of Lebanon-centric news/opinion.
The more accurately we understand how sources of news/opinion are funded and are oriented, the more accurately can we judge what is written.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There are like maybe a dozen or two people posting in I/P.
972mag, not 927. Do you know where its name comes from?
Al Akhbar mistaken with Al-Manar? Are you kidding?
Al Akhbar is secular and socialist? Wow. Can you point me to one article on that site that is critical of Hezbollah?
"The more accurately we understand how sources of news/opinion are funded and are oriented, the more accurately can we judge what is written."
That I definitely agree with.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)“Our project is basically anti-imperialism,” said Khaled Saghieh, Al Akhbar’s mild and cerebral managing editor, who abandoned a Ph.D. in political science at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, to help start the paper. That insurrectionary theme, he said, links the paper’s resistance to neoliberal economic policies and its support for Hezbollah’s fight against Israel. There are plenty of disagreements with Hezbollah, whose members regularly call to complain about articles — though not in any official capacity. But the Shiite group’s leaders appear to recognize the importance of maintaining alliances across Lebanon’s complex sectarian and political landscape.
Al Akhbar has sometimes criticized Hezbollah in print (though mildly), and Mr. Saghieh himself — who writes a regular column — has written excoriating critiques of Hezbollah’s chief Christian ally, the party of Michel Aoun, a former general.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/world/middleeast/29beirut.html?_r=0
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I have been unable to find one.
What do you make of this, by the way?
Hamadeh denounces Al-Akhbar threats against his life
March 14 MP Marwan Hamadeh denounced on Monday the threats against his life by the Al-Akhbar , a pro Hezbollah led March 8 alliance newspaper .
Hamadeh’s remarks come after Ibrahim al-Amin the editor-in-chief of the Al-Akhbar commented in his editorial column published earlier in the day “your [Hamadeh’s] days are numbered”.
http://www.yalibnan.com/2013/01/22/hamadeh-denounces-al-akhbar-threats-against-his-life/
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)is the international calling code for Israel, the West Bank would be +970
I think most of us already knew that though
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But now they do!
delrem
(9,688 posts)As I run down toward oblivion for not knowing the true significance of "911", I'll note in passing that I do know the difference between Al Manar and Al Akhbar (and I don't have to fib).
delrem
(9,688 posts)1. Who the fuck cares what your tally of I/P posters is?
2. Caught me! you devil!
3. I wasn't the one who said Al Akhbar was Hezbollah's mouthpiece. Since you forgot, check back in the thread.
4. Al Akhbar is surprisingly critical - to the point where your buddy, the IDF's very own pelsar, totally agrees with an Al Akhbar critique of Hamas. No, I won't go on a search for you. To be sure, Al Akhbar is supportive of the Lebanese resistance, wherever it arises, but it isn't supportive of Lebanese soldiers serving tea to Israeli enemies.
I think that's natural, without which I don't think Al Akhbar would be credible.
(edited to eliminate a triple negative) (yes, *triple*)
5. I'm glad we agree.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:25 AM - Edit history (1)
"The more accurately we understand how sources of news/opinion are funded and are oriented, the more accurately can we judge what is written."ideas should be judged for the worth, not by who wrote them, nor by who paid for them. Stalin may have been a monster, but perhaps in his rule he did something right? Are the capitalist koch brothers/capitalist soros all so bad that whatever they fund is tainted by their capitalism?
why would i cross off an idea just because i didnt like the guy who thought it up?
everytime someone here dives in to the author of an article i cringe......it means the worth of the idea, the words are immediatly down graded to group identity, herd mentality, is he one of us or one of them?
___
I disagreed with Sharon on so many thing, yet his leaving gaza was brilliant....is the leaving of gaza "tainted" because he did it? would it have gotten the kosher approval had Rabin did it, with the result more than likly being the same?
Bennet, wants to put the haridi to work and get them more involved in israeli society...so because he's on the right does that mean we have to discount his ideas, his experience in creating jobs?
ideas have no owners and never should, they should be never be tainted just because you dont like the writer.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Legions of keyboard commandoes against all us nerds and troublemakers out here in nowhere land.
All these public relations types at the top who are used to OWNING the megaphone are finding out that all that "perception managent" stuff does not work the way they like on the web, when people can talk back, and they have to defend their gobbledygook.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There is a pretty strong legion of keyboard commandos on the other side as well.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would imagine there is a BDS win vs. BDS fail tally somewhere.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)TPTB fear the net, but they show little ability to do much about it when it gets riled up. They could shut it down, of course, but that would have a lot of other consequences, as time went on. The problem is it's so decentralized, you can't focus energy on the net, managing opinion on the web is like herding cats with a fire hose.
Edit: IMHO
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'm seeing lots of personal attacks. Wondering if it's just me.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)We've both been posting here long enough to have seen our share of wildness and personal attacks from time to time.
I do miss having a more structured set of rules for this particular sub-forum though.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Just surprised at some of the things I see sit there on the board now, never getting hidden.
I think one needs some sort of little-toxic-waste-dump forum for people who enjoy venting at each other, they will make their own if you don't. I don't know that I'm much better sometimes. It's an art. You can tell some posters love the fights.
I suppose we need better people, lots of them.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The Snowden arguments have been great for that, everyone yelling at each other for their abusive conduct.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I seriously wondered whether all the people who were lining up to defend the Obama administration for unwarranted surveillance of its own citizenry were government shills. Why would people so passionately defend what was obviously criminal?
And then I remembered why:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And a lot of people like having an authority figure of some sort to associate with, the world is a scary place. It's good to belong.
So when it happens to fall apart, in public, it's very upsetting, and it takes a while, but the real people come around, and don't sound fake about it.
Must be very strange to watch from afar.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the surveillance was just one example of people not leaving/criticizing their "leader" no matter what they do. Herd mentality is by far, as far as i can see, the strongest of all our "non physical needs".
you might have noticed how, whereas criticizing bush was fair game even up to the idea of his assassination, and all of that was based on "freedom of speech" ...did you notice how that freedom of speech disappeared when obama got elected?
You're going to get a few perhaps that look at the NSA etc and start "yelling about it"...i've been looking and find the defense of Obama fascinating, but I dont think it put a "chink in his armor" (expression used on purpose).
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)"Mr President, we want to spy on everyone and know all of their emails and phone calls and shit. If you say yes to everything we want, sure its probably unconstitutional and illegal and whatever. On the other hand, if you say no, there is the small but statistical chance that someone could die in a terrorist attack."
You give that calculation to any typically spineless leader and the answer will come back yes, take everything you need. Anything to avoid me being implicated in a terrorist attack.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Isn't that sort of the way things go around here?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Like about every three months.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)look at post # 96 as an example ....
both Davids cant seem to handle that not all Israelis are Zionists and not all Israelis think as they do .
I've come to the conclusion that its best just to ignore their personal attacks , I refuse to lower myself to their level .
King_David
(14,851 posts)A lot of them are coming from you .
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'm in a good mood today, for a change, I'm not getting into cases.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)I'm not about to get " sucked into " anything .... comes from a life times experience of dealing with diaspora zionists who dont have a clue .....and dont have the balls to put their tachet where their mouth is .
bemildred
(90,061 posts) King_David
(14,851 posts)Zionists have toward Golah Zionists who sit on there tushies in the Golah.
We were taught at school that it's not possible to be a Zionist without making Aliyah.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)We were taught at school that it's not possible to be a Zionist without making Aliyah
The relevant word here is " Israeli " not "Zionists".
btw you should have paid more attention at school " who sit on there tushies "......... should read " who sit on their tushies ".......and English is not my mother tongue
King_David
(14,851 posts)Post Zionists are irrelevant to me and of very little significance in influence or electoral power due to their tiny insignificant numbers.
BTW , since you love these games ,My grandfather was born in Palestine ... Where was yours born? To me even that question is irrelevant since we all Am Echad.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)
Tell that to Rabin's family .
David__77
(23,335 posts)The outlet of the Qatarese monarchy apparently has a problem with other states also presenting its viewpoint to the world.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)David__77
(23,335 posts)"Qatari!"
