The Jewish majority in Israel still see their country as 'a villa in the jungle'

[King_David]

A Middle East news summary: deadly crackdown of protest in Egypt, bloody civil war in Syria, a car bomb in Lebanon, refugee crisis and political uncertainty in Jordan, sectarian war resumes in Iraq. Only in Israel, right in their midst, people are busy with their summer vacations. Here, the hottest news in recent weeks was the nomination fiasco of the national bank governor. Even the resumption of peace talks with the Palestinians, after five years of impasse, raises only little interest or hope here.

Israel has never appeared so remote and disconnected from its neighbours. Seen through a mainstream political prism in Israel, the latest switch in the Arab spring revolutions with the military retaking of Egypt simply proves that the Jewish state is, as former prime minister Ehud Barak once said, "a villa in the jungle". Despite all its inter-tribal rivalries and domestic tensions and even its never-ending occupation of the West Bank, Israel is uncharacteristically an island of calm in a troubled region. Or, in popular terms, "they" kill each other while we go to the beach.

Israel's Arab community is torn between the duelling sides in Syria and Egypt. But the Jewish majority, viewing itself as an unfortunate bastion of the west, looks at the bloodshed across the border as if it were on Mars. Few Israeli Jews bother to learn Arabic or to immerse themselves in regional culture; cross-border trade is minimal; and the internet has shortened the mental distance from Tel Aviv to New York and Berlin, its cultural beacons.

Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, is an old adherent to "the villa in the jungle" school of thought. His political and cultural references are entirely Anglo-American, he has hardly ever visited an Israeli Arab town, has probably never met an Arab intellectual, and views the neighbourhood with a mixture of suspicion and fear. The upheavals of the past three years merely strengthened this worldview. Netanyahu's outgoing cabinet secretary, Zvi Hauser, told my colleague Ari Shavit in an interview last week: "Look at the changes that are going on around us. The Middle East is not going forward, but backward."


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/20/jewish-majority-israel-villa-in-the-jungle

[Israeli]

1. from the article .....

last paragraph :

Netanyahu will not take sides publicly in the Egyptian conflict; he would merely leverage the upheavals across the border to justify the West Bank status quo. Few Israelis challenge his policy and argue that a peace breakthrough with the Palestinians would support the pro-American regimes in the Arab world far more than the current Israeli isolationism. Most would simply hide behind walls and fences, while planning their next vacation in Europe or Thailand.

Yup .

You did not get it at all did you King_David ?

[King_David]

7. Yes I forget how you believe you know these things about other people,

You know what I "get" and "don't get" because in your mind you are morally superior to the rest of the tribe.

I get it !

[Israeli]

9. If you " get it " then .....

kindly explain what it is that you get from the article that you chose to post .....

who are the Jewish majority in your opinion ?
and who are the "Jewish" minority ?
and which group do you think Aluf Benn belongs to ?

Here is a hint :

Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, is an old adherent to "the villa in the jungle" school of thought. His political and cultural references are entirely Anglo-American, he has hardly ever visited an Israeli Arab town, has probably never met an Arab intellectual,

and another hint :

Aluf Benn is one of the defenders of his post zionist journalists like Gideon Levy and Amira Hass ....

a direct quote from him ....

"Amira Hass was and is one of the best journalists I have ever met in my 27-year career. I am happy to discover that, to many of her former colleagues, including those with extensive knowledge of the issues she covers, she has not lost her relevance and her writing continues to arouse a great deal of interest and bring us new readers "

[King_David]

11. Of course you think I don't "get" it

How could just a regular Jew possibly understand?

I am not a part of that handful of elite Jews that are so sophisticated that they now have moved on to become "post Zionists" or somehow understand what's going on kinda like Chomsky and others believe. But the rest of us are not sophisticated enough to join the club .



I am going to make a club called Antescedant Zionists or Coma Zionists or Interim Zionists ... I'm sure ill have as many members and adherents as you have in your little movement in oh ... 1 or 2 weeks ?

[Israeli]

12. its not that I think you dont "get" it....

I know you dont "get" it .....your response proves that .

" little movement " huh ?.......ha ha ha .

[King_David]

13. Minor small minuscule tiny insignificant marginal unimportant

And most people need an explanation and have never heard if it.

Could be telling them your an " interim Zionist " for all anyone would know.

Even an Israeli like our own Pelsar on DU ,had never heard of it, ha.

[King_David]

15. Vast majority of leftists in the USA are pro- Israel

It's just a small vocal minority who hold the Democratic Party in contempt who feel different .

I'm not even sure why anti Israel sentiment is tolerated by a small number of DU members on this kind of Democratic Party supporting web site/ forum.

[shira]

16. Agreed. n/t

[Israeli]

17. if you think that ...

in our history ... Shulamit Aloni and son , Avraham Burg , Uri Avnery , Tom Segev ,Shlomo Sand, Tanya Reinhart and others to numerous to mention .....are " Minor small minuscule tiny insignificant marginal unimportant " .....then seriously you just dont get it .

Pelsar is not a great example to go by King_David..... he is more one of you than he is one of us .

[King_David]

18. "he is more one of you than he is one of us . "

One of "you"

Ha ha ha ha , the self anointed rightous elite .

A private club of 1.

[Israeli]

19. actually what I meant ....

was that he is more American than Israeli .

[King_David]

20. That's obscene

Embracing immigrants and their absorption is a progressive value.

My grandfather was born in Palestine... Where was your grandfather born?

[Israeli]

24. well it may well be King_David

but you can hardly blame the Israeli Left for isolating themselves from Americans and hesitating to embrace them ....you see our past history with your lot has taught us much :

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/01/21/american-jews-gave-israel-gift-of-jewish-terror/

now thats what I call obscene.

[King_David]

25. I'm not American and your "us and them"

sentiment is anything but progressive and leftists.

The settler movement are disgusting.

Prejudice against immigrants in general because of some very bad eggs is bigotry .

Bigotry against Muslim immigrants occurs here in the USA for the same reasons.

It's wrong when it happens to Muslims in the USA and is certainly not a leftist progressive value ...

..... ANYWHERE IN THEWORLD.

[Israeli]

26. my apologies ....

I was sure you were American .
So where do you live ?
Canada ?
UK ?

I dont understand "us and them" ..... who is us and who is them ?

The settler movement are disgusting.

Which " settler movement " King_David ?

I dont have " Prejudice against immigrants in general " but your comment of :

Even an Israeli like our own Pelsar on DU ,had never heard of it, ha.

is what started this conversation ....

all I am saying is that I'm not surprised pelsar has never heard of us ... and that is because he is more American than Israeli .
Or he is completely ignorant of Israeli Left wing politics .... so which is it King_David ?

BTW your own " bigotry " shines thru in every post you make moteck

[pelsar]

27. haven't we gone through this enough?

its pretty disgusting, when an israeli attempts to show they are "more israeli" than others simply because they have older roots than some (and less older roots than others.)

before the 2nd aliya, there was a first aliyha....and wasn't it the second aliya that treated the holocaust survivors like shit when they arrived all broken and yet they STILL went to fight for israel, not even speaking the language?....while many of the second aliya stayed in Tel Aviv pretending there was no war?
____

are you one of those that disdain the russian immigrants for being russian, the ethiopians for having trouble integrating, the americans who give up a more material life style in the US to live in israel? how about the mizrachi jews in ofakim and sederot do you see them all as ignorant fools for voting mainly for likud?
Should their right to vote be taken away? How about the israeli-arabs that voted for likud.....should their citizenship be take away? put them back under martial law?

is their any social, cultural, ethnic group other than the white, european, far left group that you belong to that you give the minimum of respect?
___

the more you write, the more I understand you its you who in fact is not part of israel, and in fact never really were....apparently even the movement of shomar Hatzir has nothing to do with the "post zionism" as far as i can see
_____

i'm "ignorent" of fringe groups be they far right or far left. If sholomit wants to make an irrelevant political group with burg and pretend that they still have influence, thats fine, but I'm no going to waste my time reading about their attempts to align with the european left

[Israeli]

28. I did not bring your name up pelsar ....

as far as I am concerned your politics are closer to shira's and King David's than mine .
And what do all three of you have in common ?
You are all American born Zionists .
Your culture is not my culture .

while many of the second aliya stayed in Tel Aviv pretending there was no war?

my grandparents and parents were to busy building the kibbutzim that you disdain so much American .

are you one of those that disdain the russian immigrants for being russian, the ethiopians for having trouble integrating, the americans who give up a more material life style in the US to live in israel? how about the mizrachi jews in ofakim and sederot do you see them all as ignorant fools for voting mainly for likud?
Should their right to vote be taken away? How about the israeli-arabs that voted for likud.....should their citizenship be take away? put them back under martial law?

No .... no and no again pelsar .

i'm "ignorent" of fringe groups be they far right or far left. If sholomit wants to make an irrelevant political group with burg and pretend that they still have influence, thats fine, but I'm no going to waste my time reading about their attempts to align with the european left

well ... you got that right ... your "ignorent" pelsar .... none of us are asking you for your permission .

BTW .... whats your views on this ? :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3958611,00.html

The Israelis most interested in peace, according to Clinton, are the native-born Israelis ("Sabras&quot who are able to imagine a common future with the Palestinians. The Ashkenazi Jews who came to Israel from Europe are the second group most supportive of a peace agreement.

Loved it how he singles out the Russians and makes no mention of what your culture has given us, ref :

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/01/21/american-jews-gave-israel-gift-of-jewish-terror/

[pelsar]

29. actually i agree..your culture is not mine nor mainstream israels

your a minority of the left.....and like most minority fanatics, you've shown your disdain and intolerance for the rest of us, you actually have more in common with the far right, in your intolerance than you do with most of israel.

you seem to have this "worship" complex. something again both the far right and far left have in common. You choose people who become "god like" in what they say as if its something holy. So Clinton thinks the russians have an "evil culture" that will prevent peace. It seems to me you think americans dont know anything, yet here you are quoting clinton.

well make up your mind, do you think americans know whats going on here or not?


why dont you make us a card: cleary you have opinions about each ethnic group,as you've already expressed:
americans: bad
russians bad
ethiopians
illegal immigrants
ashkenazi first aliyha bad
ashkenazi 2nd aliyha good

holoscaust survivors
jewish immigrants iraq
jewish immigrants yemen

native arabs
arabs from Yemen
haifa arabs

druze
bedioun




and your actually quoting richard? wow...you've really gone off the far end. Who's next Nassralla?

btw..i dont disdane the kibbutz, they were fantastic in their day and they still serve a purpose for many who want to live the bourgeois country club life style of the 1%, while sucking the tax money out of us working people (exceptions such as maagan michael, the urban kibbutz in sederot and others noted who work hard and dont look down upon their fellow citizens)

you seem to fit the stereotype kibbutznik elitist that mainstream israelis hated in its day....and disappeared when the kibbutzim lost their govt handouts and had to join the rest of israel...i would guess there are not many of you left.

[Israeli]

30. glad we agree on something ....

so who are these " mainstream israels " ?

your a minority of the left

that vote Meretz as you say you do ....that shira says she would if she lived here


and your actually quoting richard? wow...you've really gone off the far end. Who's next Nassralla?

What is your problem with Silverstein ?
aint he a progressive liberal American Jew ?
like you ?

dont attack the messenger ....read the message .

btw..i dont disdain the kibbutz

yes you do pelsar .... and our politics .

...i would guess there are not many of you left.

you wish pelsar ....there are .

Next time around vote for Neftali Bennett or Yair Lapid ....much more your thing than mine , Meretz doesnt need your guilty conscience .

[pelsar]

31. your stuck in 1960's mentality....

where in israel people identified with party as part of their identity. This is now 2013, many kibbutzim have been privatized, very few maintain the "collective" and only those that are rich can afford to. BTW, i'm not writing this for you, i'm writing this for the others, who have no idea what actually happened to the movement and its residents and why you do not represent the current avg kibbutz member in attitude toward the rest of the population of israel

I can vote meretz because i agree with part of their platform...i dont identify with them, nor do i see them as some kind of "god like creatures". I might even vote for lapid if he survives a few rounds, after I judge his results.

why would i care if Richard is a progressive liberal jew? for all i care he can be green monkey living on the moon, i've read what he writes and believes and its closer to post zionism / Neturei Karta and nassralla than it is to my beliefs.

I disdain anybody and everybody who believes that they are better than me and that they have all the answers....and that their belief shall not be challenged
If all members of your kibbutz believe so, then yes, i would disdain your particular kibbutz just as I disdain those members of storefront or the "hill top youth" or the tapuach settlement (ideological extremists)

and meretz? they are a zionist party....i have no idea why you vote for them, perhaps you should go further left, after all, you dont like us zionists.

[Israeli]

32. politically I grew up in the 1980's mentality...

first Peace Now and after Rabin's assassination .... Gush Shalom .

Once again american .... your culture is not my culture , your history is not my history and Meretz is more me than it will ever be you .

Sue me pelsar ... I dont like American Zionists .... what is there to like ?

[King_David]

34. Meretz is a Zionist party,

[Israeli]

35. not your kind of Zionism King_David....

tho it should be ..... considering :.....

In 1973 she finally resigned from the Labor party and established the Civil Rights and Peace Movement, known as Ratz (meaning “run” or “runner”). She gathered around her a group of lawyers, intellectuals, civil libertarians and feminists. Riding on the wave of discontent following the Yom Kippur War, her list unexpectedly garnered three seats in the Eighth Knesset, making her the only woman to date to successfully found a political party in Israel. She remained the leader of Ratz—which merged with the smaller Mapam and Shinui factions in 1992 to form the Meretz (meaning “energy”) party—until her retirement at the end of the Thirteenth Knesset in 1996.

During the twenty-five years that ensued after the establishment of Ratz, Shulamit Aloni spearheaded virtually every progressive democratic cause in the country. Guided by her vision that human rights stand at the center of modern society and must be applied equally to all citizens regardless of gender, religion, nationality, age and political persuasion, she fought relentlessly to advance the rights of children, women and minorities in Israel. She not only laid down Israel’s human rights agenda—thereby altering the content of political debate in the country—but she continues to be a source of constant innovation, being the first to promote the battle against discrimination against homosexuals and lesbians, migrant workers, the handicapped and conscientious objectors.

Source: http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/aloni-shulamit

[King_David]

38. Sounds exactly the kind of party my friends would be supportive of,

It doesn't sound like its anti Immigrant though and surprisingly tolerant and clearly Zionist. I'm surprised you support Meretz , it sounds nothing like the politics you have espoused on DU.

The battle against Homophobia within Israel is at a very advanced stage.. At least officially and I am very proud of the Jewish State for this. Most Gay and Lesbians within Israel are Zionists ( and I would venture to guess I know more of them than you do)

[Israeli]

39. thats because you dont ...

understand our politics ..... ignorance is bliss ..... and every single Israeli citizen is a Zionist ..


( and I would venture to guess I know more of them than you do)

I'm sure you do ....your minority is not my minority ...I belong to your minority as much as you do to mine .

[King_David]

41. Progressive people try not to divide everyone into groups

I consider the GBLT to be a part of society as a whole in Israel just like they are in Canada , South Africa , Netherlands and the UK and France ( not so much in the USA or Australia or Russia )

[King_David]

33. "You are all American born Zionists . "

I keep telling you that I am not... But what do you know .

Your posts are very anti immigrant isolationist and bizzarrio that you feel your left wing? I never met an anti-immigrant left wing Israeli before .

You still have not answered my question , where were your grandparents born?

My grandparents were born in Palestine , in your bizzarrio world I have a stronger birthright than you do . It's all about immigrants in your "entitlement "world of privilege within Israel . Strata in your society..

Wo is more Israeli than you ? LOL

Thang G-D your in a bizzarrio marginal political cult within Israel ...

What's your cult called again ? Interim -Zionists or Oast-Zuonists or Post-Zionists or Period-Zionists? I forget ...

[Israeli]

36. its called post zionism ....

What's your cult called again ? Interim -Zionists or Oast-Zuonists or Post-Zionists or Period-Zionists? I forget ...

....and most of us vote Meretz or Hadash .

you are welcome to come vote against us when ever you get the balls to actually live our lives .... until then King_David your as much a joke to me as your handle is

[King_David]

37. My "handle" is a joke to you maybe,

because you don't realize why I chose it?
Or maybe you do realize why I chose it and that would be even worse?

King David was a Gay Jewish King. (Jonathan )

Think I should of chosen a Queen instead ?

[Israeli]

40. Jonathan ?

should that not be Yonatan ???

there you go ... bastardizing our language once again .... you Americans are so good at that .

I could not care less what your sexual preferences are King_David.....its the biblical reference that got to me .

hey ... here is one Yonatan that I have no problem with ....:

http://972mag.com/shapira1/18537/

[King_David]

42. It's not a sexual "preference " bevakasha,

That implies a "choice".

What it is .. is an "orientation ".

Todah.

It's not Bastardizing Hebrew to use English language on a forum that uses that safah...

We say :
Israeli and not Yisraeli and Benjamin not Binyamun and Joseph not Yosef and if it were Spanish George and not Jorge and Dutch Jonathan and not Johannes.

And that's Americans British Australian Canadian South African Irish and all other
Anglo -Sexy people

[Israeli]

43. whatever King_David

but which ever way you look at it .... you are better of with us ...
our religious right wing and our right wing in general have no time for you ...they will eat you up for breakfast and spit you out for lunch .
in their eyes you are an abomination ( wow look ... I just got all biblical to )

[King_David]

44. Agreed,

Right wingers and the religious generally have deep prejudice against and hatred toward the GLBT community .

[Israeli]

45. Baruch Hashem Adonai ...

..... at least we agree on something

[Alamuti Lotus]

2. Revolting sentiments, but hardly surprising *nt

[oberliner]

3. Author is the Editor-in-Chief of Ha'aretz

Just FYI.

[Alamuti Lotus]

4. Knew that, never really been a fan of his either

That said, the piece is not badly written or constructed, it's just the subject matter that is awful: it adeptly reflects the arrogant, racist attitudes of many of the settlers in that place, spoken of most nonchalantly.

[oberliner]

5. Not every Editor-in-Chief can be Ibrahim al-Amin

I wonder if you've ever been disgusted by anything he's written or said.

[Alamuti Lotus]

6. We should be so lucky!

His nationalist deviation is something I don't always follow, but you are basically correct (stopped clock syndrome, I am assuming):--material disagreements are few and far between.

[oberliner]

10. Nationalist deviation?

Can you explain what you mean by that?

[Scootaloo]

8. Interesting simile n/t

[bemildred]

21. That's what I thought.

Can't really expect to get along with the neighbors with that sort of negative attitude.

[Scootaloo]

22. I'm just wondering which Israeli is supposed to be Mr. Kurtz.

Netanyahu lacks the sense of style.

[bemildred]

23. Well I'm just not going to go there.

Let's just say the "optics" suck, and more sensitivity about language would be a good thing to see.