Kerry: Why do you want to build in what will eventually be Palestine?

[Israeli]

Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:34 AM - Edit history (1)

In bitter attack on Israeli policy in the West Bank, secretary warns of 3rd intifada, says expanding the ‘illegitimate’ settlements ‘sends message that you’re not really serious’ about peace.

By Lazar Berman November 7, 2013

US Secretary of State John Kerry launched an unusually pointed public attack on Israeli policies in the West Bank Thursday, calling settlements “illegitimate” and warning that if current peace talks fail, Israel could face a third intifada and growing international isolation. Kerry made the comments during a joint interview with Israel’s Channel 2 and the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation.

“The alternative to getting back to the talks is the potential of chaos,” Kerry said. “I mean, does Israel want a third intifada?” he asked.
“If we do not resolve the issues between Palestinians and Israelis, if we do not find a way to find peace, there will be an increasing isolation of Israel, there will be an increasing campaign of delegitimization of Israel that’s been taking place on an international basis,” he warned.

(snip)

Turning to settlements and Israel’s presence in the West Bank, Kerry on Thursday denied rumors that there was an understanding that Israel would announce new settlement construction in exchange for releasing long-serving prisoners: ”That is not the agreement. The agreement, specifically, was that there would be a release of the pre-Oslo prisoners — 104 [of them] — who’ve been in prison now for many many years, who would be released in exchange for the PA not proceeding to the UN during that period of time.

“Now, the Palestinian leadership made it absolutely clear: they believe the settlements are illegal. They object to the settlements, and they are in no way condoning the settlements, but they knew that Israel would make some announcements. They knew it. But they don’t agree with it. And they don’t support it. They disagreed with it. In fact, they said, ‘We don’t agree. We do not think you should be doing settlements.’

Continue reading @
http://www.timesofisrael.com/kerry-why-do-you-want-to-build-in-what-will-eventually-be-palestine/

[azurnoir]

1. Netanyahu made a Machiavellian statement if ever there was one

" And the prime minister has said he will not affect the peace map with the construction that takes place.”

yep I think that about sums up his intentions

[Scootaloo]

2. Well, so long as we keep funding pogroms and colonization, it'll keep happening

Pretty simple cause and effect; if you give an addict money, you know damn well what he's gonna spend it on.

[sabbat hunter]

5. not a pogrom

since tehre is no massacres going on. Nor are we seeing Palestinians pillaged, robbed and raped.

[Scootaloo]

7. well, regardless of how much you wish to sugar-coat whatever it is...

It remains pretty clear that so long as the Israelis themselves don't have to pay for the "project," they will happily continue it.

[oberliner]

9. Was pogrom the word you meant to use?

If so, why?

[Scootaloo]

10. I tend to not use words unintnetionally

Here we have a state with a very clear agenda of driving a lesser people from their land through home demolition, destruction of farmland, tainting of water supplies, midnight assaults and arrests, ghettoization of communities, and non-response or advocacy of violence and brutality inflicted upon the targeted ethnic group. We have regular paroxysms of violence against a captive community of these people where hundreds die, which labors under a regime of policies intended to grind them into utter destitution and anarchy.

It's an effort to destroy an entire community of people, in order to seize their assets. I'll grant, there aren't mass graves, but the intent is the same, and is proving just as devastating.

I see no reason to make up new terms to please the sensibilities of people who advocate such policies. Strikes me as counter-productive.

[oberliner]

12. It looked like you were backtracking above

Clearly I misunderstood.

[Scootaloo]

15. Nope, just trying to bring the coversation to someone who thinks it's all sunshine and gumdrops

[King_David]

8. Pogroms massacres apartheids genocides

Holocausts Armaggedons Atrocities Barbarisms etc etc ..

Yep that's The Jewish State...

[Scootaloo]

11. It doesn't have to be.

Strange that you're the one equating violence against Palestinians with Jewishness. I would ask why that is, but, well, I already know why

[King_David]

13. Oh it's the essence of all the hatred towards Israel

Especially by those not involved .

If Israel were not the Jewish state it would've been treated the same way as Syria , Russia ,Darfur , England ,Hungary and Sweden were by the world.

[Scootaloo]

14. You want Israel to be treated like Syria? Okay

So you want the United States and Europe to begin arming and funding Hamas and Islamic Jihad in an effort to overthrow Tel Aviv, no matter how much innocent blood these militants spill in the process? 'cause that's what we've been doing with Syria. To mention nothing of those direct threats of blowing shit up with missiles not too very long ago.

While the US is hiring these thugs to butcher innocents in the streets of Ashkelon and Haifa - just like you want - we'll also work to levy stiff sanctions against Israel for its weapons of mass destruction programs, freeze its international assets, and deny Israeli nationals access to the United States.

Oh, and if Israel ever kills some number of civilians while this is all going down, I hope you don't mind if we park cruisers off the coast and scream about how we are going to missile the everloving shit out of the country for their grievous offense against all humanity. better not complain when your boy Bibi is openly compared to Hitler by the US secretary of state, either.

After all, you want Israel to be treated like Syria is treated.

Would you prefer the North Korea package? Non-NPT states who acquire nuclear weapons ught to hang together, don't you think?

Or would you just rather skip all of these options, and stick with promoting the idea that Jews can only ever follow the path Israel blazes? I mean you clearly think that neo-revisionism and Judaism are one and the same, right?

[King_David]

16. Nope none of that,

But I get it, we understand what's going on.

[Scootaloo]

17. Oh, well, you said you wanted Israel to be treated like Syria

Did I help you realize just how fucking DUMB that argument actually is? I hope so, but I rather doubt it.

[King_David]

22. LOL

How many times has Syria been before the UNHRC compared to Israel ...BDS against Syria or Flotillas to Syria by groupies who gave up on saving the whales ?

Puleeez ... There's no Jews running Syria or anywhere else...not even The White House , Hollywood or Wall Street...

[Scootaloo]

64. Oh, heavens to betsy...

I just pointed out that Syria is in a grinding civil war, with outside nations fanning the flames, hundreds of thousands of dead... and you're really going to try to keep arguing that Syria is "getting off easy" because some NGO hasn't sent a boat full of futons like IHH did with Gaza?

Wow. Even for you, that's shitty.

[shira]

81. So the reason Israel gets more than 100x the attention from the UN and "human rights" posers....

...than Syria is because ______________?

[Scootaloo]

86. The shitty keeps piling up

Tell ya what. when Israelis are stacked like cordwood, other nations are bombing them with impunity, world powers fund militia groups that are hacking off and eating body parts, all in a desperate drive to send the nation spiralling into irreversible anarchy? Then we can start comparing Israel's travails to Syria's.

Until then you sound like a bunch of brainless high schoolers fussing about who likes who more.

[shira]

87. Your strawman is the steaming pile here...

KingDavid was merely saying that Israel should be treated the same way other nations like "Syria , Russia ,Darfur , England ,Hungary and Sweden" are by the rest of the world and various human rights posers.

You have a problem with, don't you?

[Scootaloo]

88. Except Israel is treated far better than most of those

As I've been pointing out. It's actually a sign of Israel's entitlement and privilege that your greatest worry seems to be gossip.

Also... Sweden? Well, I guess if you want the UN to start waggling its finger over the events of the Napoleonic wars? I don't know where you're going there. But given how you didn't know Tibet is landlocked, I can't imagine you can tell your ass from your elbow in regards to Sweden. Probably thinking they still send out vikings or something.

[shira]

90. Did you watch this video from just a few days ago @ the UN?

#t=116

You don't have a problem with the UN's ridiculous obsession, do you?

It's not like there's really bad shit happening elsewhere...

[Scootaloo]

91. "Ohmigosh, Becky, did you hear what Rachel said about Susie?!"

Meanwhile of course, people are getting their heads hacked off in Syria - which you insist has it so much better than Israel.

I've already explained the reality of the situation to you at least a dozen times. I suggest you use the search feature DU so kindly provides you with.

[shira]

92. IOW, you have no problem with the SOP at the UN. That says it all, really. n/t

[Scootaloo]

104. Not enough of a problem that I'd equate wagging a finger at Israel to what's facing Syria, no

It's called "a sense of perspective," Shira.

[azurnoir]

105. so exactly what is the UN's SoP? do you have a UN link to the UN's Sop

to share with us? Or do you only have someones opinion? or maybe what someone overheard?

[shira]

107. 22 country-specific UNGAR's against Israel vs. 4 against the rest of the world combined....

You believe that's justifiable?

[azurnoir]

110. exaxctly what is UNGAR? a search turned up nothing related to the UN and as I asked

Do you have a link or just an opinion it seems the latter

[shira]

112. UNGARs=UN General Assembly Resolutions. 22 against Israel vs. 4 against the rest of the world

You find that justifiable, do you not?

[azurnoir]

113. oh so it's something you made up I see well provide us with a list

from the UN's site of the UNGA resolutions and we'll decide from there

[shira]

114. Here's a list for you to deny or ignore....

http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/12/27/this-years-tally-21-u-n-resolutions-on-israel-4-on-rest-of-world-combined/

[azurnoir]

119. so we're talking 2012 when Israel visiously attacked Gaza including a family in their home

and then bombing killing several women and children

The Dalu family victims were: Mohamed al-Dalu, 25; Samah Abdul Hamid al-Dalu, 27; Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 6; Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4; Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7; Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 1; Tahani Hassan al-Dalu, 52; Suhaila Mahmoud al-Dalu, 73; and Raneen Jamal al-Dalu, 22. The two neighbors killed were members of the al-Mauzannar family; they were: Ameena Matar al-Mauzannar, 75; and Abdullah Mohammed al-Muzannar, 19.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dalu_family_killing

[Violet_Crumble]

120. Now you can run through that list and point to the ones you don't think should be brought up

Because that's the real issue. That there's Resolutions that dare to mention Israel, not the number of them or anything.

So, go through that list one by one and point to the ones that you don't think the UN should be mentioning or that are 'anti-Israel'

[shira]

128. This reminds me of a really nasty racist neighbor who bashed blacks for everything....

It was constant, non-stop abuse. Did you hear about______? Look at what they're doing...! Can you believe this one...?

I can just see you now playing devil's advocate, challenging me to go through his points one-by-one, demonstrating exactly what is wrong with his mere "criticism".

If he pulled that shit on me, I'd tell him to go fuck himself.

[Violet_Crumble]

129. Try and focus on what's said in the post yr replying to. You were asked to do something...

It shouldn't be a difficult task when you provided the link to the list in one of yr posts.

It helps when yr reminded of things to actually get the situation right. There's nothing racist at all about asking you to go through that list that so offends you and point to the ones you don't think should have been mentioned. I'm aware you won't do it as it's not in yr nature here to answer questions, so I'll take the silence as meaning you think each and every one of those Resolutions are anti-Semitic, anti-Israel and undeserved...

[shira]

134. That racist neighbor is an example of what Thomas Friedman was writing about....

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

I won't play your nasty game.

On second thought....there is a resolution calling for Israel to end its occupation of the Golan Heights. Great resolution there, considering the Syrian civil war. So to WHOM should Israel return the Heights? Assad and his goons or the opposition? And why do it now when war is raging and doing so would imperil Israel's civilians?

[azurnoir]

115. Just did a search and for 2012 there were 303 and 2013 10 resolutions respectively by the UNGA

neither of which equates to the 26 your going on about

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/resguide/r68_en.shtml

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/resguide/r67_en.shtml

[shira]

116. Nope...country-specific criticisms. 22 vs. Israel to 4 vs. the rest of the world combined.NT

[Violet_Crumble]

118. Yr wasting yr breath, Az. I already posted them and she pointedly ignored them n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

121. Doesn't it stand for Statement Of Purpose? Like with the groups here at DU?

I know the UN has a Charter, so I'm assuming a SOP is something invented that goes like this: 'We at the UN hate Israel, hate Jews, hate America, hate US unilateralism, hate attempts by the US a few years ago to attack terrorists because they hate freedom, and did we mention we really hate Israel and are dedicated to hating stupid blogs with 'watch' after the name of whatever legit org they're obessing over?'

[azurnoir]

122. Nailed it

[shira]

124. SoP = Standard-Operating-Procedure. The UN's charter calls on it to work for universal......

...human rights. Singling out Israel to the exclusion of the worst violators on the planet is not working towards universal human rights, Violet.

[Violet_Crumble]

125. The UN doesn't have a SOP...

And yr one of the few people here that are under the bizarre delusion that the UN singles out Israel and ignores everyone else. Then again, it's bizarre that yr sitting there and complaining about human rights abusers when you support the human rights abuses against the Palestinians by Israel...

[shira]

132. 22 country-specific UNGAR's criticizing Israel vs. 4 against the rest of the world combined....

...cannot be justified. That is singling out Israel and ignoring everyone else. But you don't have to take my word for it.

Read the news and you'll find among other things that N.Korea just publicly executed 80 people.
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-north-korea-executes-80-20131111,0,2954869.story#axzz2krVELQbN

Earlier this year, Saudi Arabia publicly beheaded and crucified 5 people...
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-five-beheaded-and-crucified-amid-disturbing-rise-executions-2013-05-21

Where are the UN resolutions condemning these acts? I think you'd agree that if Israel were doing this, there would be some resolutions.

Electing the worst human rights abusers on the planet to its UN Human Rights Council is vile.

That's what you support.

[Violet_Crumble]

97. Psst! Wanna hear what the cleaner at Medicare Australia said?

I know someone who works there who told me that a cleaner made an off-the-cuff comment about how crap Medicare is and how much better we'd be if we just had the US system, which rewards people for privilege and wealth by giving them access to healthcare. Now, a friend of the person who works at Medicare is a raving RW maniac and anytime anyone even starts to talk about how good our universal healthcare system is, shuts them up with 'BUT THE CLEANER AT MEDICARE SPOKE THE TRUTH! HERE! THERE'S A YOUTUBE CLIP OF THEM SAYING IT WHEN THEY THOUGHT NO-ONE WAS WATCHING!!'

I'm at a loss how to respond to such a compelling and iron-clad argument against universal healthcare. I mean, the cleaner knows the truth. How can one respond to such logic?

[shira]

99. The UNGA will have passed 22 resolutions vs. Israel but only 4 against....

...the rest of the world combined, and you don't see anything wrong with that.

I find it gob-smackingly fascinating that someone who purports to be a supporter of universal human rights finds the UN justified in its behavior.

For example, the UNGA just passed a resolution calling for Israel to get out of the Golan, while not saying a word about the 100,000 killed by Assad's forces. IOW, Israel should give the Golan back to......Assad? And then what....leave Israel's security to him?

Un.real.

[Violet_Crumble]

100. I didn't expect that you'd comprehend what my post was saying..

I'd suggest you go back and try reading it and responding to what it said, but I know that'd be an exercise in futility that would result in 100+ frenzied posts about how much you hate the UN, so I'll leave you to it and let the folk who actually have an interest in reading what I say to read what I say and have a bit of a snicker...

Have a lovely day!

[shira]

101. The UN interpreter was dead-on right. The rest of the assembly...

...had a good laugh as well. It's all just a game and she was caught admitting to it.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. Yep. The Medicare analogy flew right over yr head...

I guess the cleaner at Medicare was dead-on right as well according to yr 'logic'. I mean, everyone had a good laugh about that as well...

btw, anyone claiming that the General Assembly ignores everything else but what Israel does is either selectively blind or outright lying. Here's links to the Resolutions from the current session as well as the previous one...

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/resguide/r68_en.shtml

http://www.un.org/en/ga/67/resolutions.shtml

[shira]

106. You're supporting very ugly UN bigotry vs. Israel. Nothing to be proud of there, Vi. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

108. Pointing out a translator voicing a personal opinion is useless is 'UN bigotry'?

On what planet?

I know you don't bother to read what you reply to, but in this case it could have saved you more egg on face if you'd done so before hitting reply and doing one of those repeat it by rote bogstandard auto-replies...

[shira]

111. No, supporting the UN's bigotry vs. the Jewish state is what is bigoted...

What is worse than that is supporting a corrupt organization that uses Israel as a scapegoat so that the most horrendous human rights abuses around the globe are never dealt with properly.

Kofi Annan admitted it:

Annan also called for strengthening the office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights. But he said that the Commission on Human Rights, which has recently included countries such as Sudan, Cuba and Libya with histories of rights violations, has "been increasingly undermined by its declining credibility and professionalism." He said that some states have sought membership on the commission "not to strengthen human rights, but to protect themselves against criticism, or to criticize others." In its place, Annan proposed creating a smaller Human Rights Council, whose members would be appointed by the General Assembly. But he said the members "should undertake to abide by the highest human rights standards."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50149-2005Mar19.html

That's what you support.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. Bigotry. Another word to add to the list of words you don't know the meaning of...

All of us can't help but be aware of yr hatred for multilateral global organisations like the UN, nor that if you don't like something you fling that word 'bigotry' around as though yr earning a dollar each time you use it.

The point I was making, and the one that sailed right over yr head, is that a translator at the UN making an off-the-cuff comment is as irrelevant as a cleaner at Medicare making an off-the-cuff comment about universal healthcare. And this is the bit you really continue to struggle with. Just because someone voices an opinion you like that doesn't make it a fact.

[shira]

126. Yes, bigotry vs. Israel. As Thomas Friedman once wrote....

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

That's what you support.

[Violet_Crumble]

127. No matter how many times you use the word, you still don't get what it means...

btw, do you ever take time to look at yr surroundings here at DU? This is the fucking Israel/Palestine forum. What do you want people to talk about in here? Cute kittens? How evil every other country is?

btw, someone who only ever talks at DU about Israel (with the exception of two posts in GD about Syria) isn't well-placed to be talking about obsession with Israel..

on edit: you planning on responding to this post in this thread where I asked you a question? http://www.democraticunderground.com/113450820#post120

Just wonderin'

[King_David]

42. Yours was an "argument "

Strange you thought that , unless arguing for and against yourself counts ?

[delrem]

56. It helped me understand how fucking DUMB that argument is.

There's lots that I don't know and pinpointed presentations like yours do help me make sense of the world.

[TexasProgresive]

3. Israel is taking a page from Great Britain and others

in an attempt to give a false legal claim in the future to lands on the other side of the "green line". It's the same ploy used to take Texas from Spain/Mexico. Get enough Israelis living in Palestine and voila! Palestine is now defacto Israel.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The traditional counties of Ireland subjected to plantations (1556 to 1620). This map is a simplified one, as in the case of some counties the area of land colonised did not cover the whole of the area coloured.
A more detailed map of the areas subjected to plantations

Plantations in 16th and 17th century Ireland were the confiscation of land by the English crown and the colonisation of this land with settlers from England and the Scottish Lowlands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland

Or like Germany used the fact that Germans lived in Sudetenland as an excuse to invade Czechoslovakia.

[sabbat hunter]

4. not all quite the same

Czechoslovakia was formed out of the Austro-Hungrian Empire. Germans had pretty much always lived in the 'sudetenland', going back as far as the 1300's. Nazi Germany or its predecessor the German Empire, did not have people settle there.


The comparison with England/Scotland and Ireland is a closer comparison. With that one the UK wanted the Irish to stay there as a subjugated people. The settlers in the WB and their backers probably would prefer the areas be free of palestinians. UK wanted to "anglize" the Irish. They also needed the Irish around to work the plantations as tenant farmers/serfs.


And while Texas belonged to Mexico as a province, and there were some people living there, the settlers from the US did not really displace anyone as thee was plenty of open room for them to go. The settlements were definitely supported at least covertly by the US government.

What the settlers and their backers are trying to do in the WB is closer to what the Spanish did during the exploration of the New World period in killing off the native population, bringing in colonists.

Although Israel is not killing off the Palestinians, but instead displacing them.

[delrem]

47. This is all done according as ...

according as a very well condensed manual.
Where conquests over the land were celebrated by the eradication of place names, their replacement with names reminiscent of Zionist fundamentalism.

Concluding in total elimination of Palestine from the map.

[King_David]

74. What do you mean here?

Honestly confused by this post.

Explain it again....

[sabbat hunter]

6. Bibi for some reason

kowtows to the religious ultra orthodox and settler groups.

If he instead had a broader coalition with Labor, other centrists groups, not only could they break the back of the religious parties but also the settler influence.

With some of his rhetoric and displays of paranoia, I wonder if Bibi is even entirely stable.

[Scootaloo]

18. Sad thing is, doesn't look like Israelis mind too much

Mr. Bibbles is in charge - and keeps on being put in charge - because he's who Israelis want to be in charge. Not all, absolutely. But enough that there he is, and more to the point, enough that other contenders are all just Netanyahu lite (or X-tra Netanyahu, I guess).

[oberliner]

19. He got 23 percent of the vote

The vast majority of Israelis did not vote for him.

[LeftishBrit]

23. Actually, he was chosen by less than a quarter of Israelis.

Admittedly some of their other choices weren't great either. But let's just say that pure PR is a really fucked-up type of electoral system.

[azurnoir]

25. Israeli's vote directly for their Prime Minister? Like the US votes directly for President?

my that is news and here I thought that Israeli's voted for party seats in Knesset and he who builds the strongest coalition wins so to speaks, can you please provide a link with who Netanyahu ran against and what percents that person got?

I ask because what I come up with says that Netanyahu's party got 31% of the vote

[LeftishBrit]

27. The party got 31 seats, but 23% of the vote

I know people don't directly vote for the Prime Minister in parliamentary systems; but people often use this as a shorthand. At least in the UK, people tend to say that they voted 'for Cameron' or 'for Brown', even though this is not literally correct.

[azurnoir]

30. Interesting that 31 out of 120 equates to 23% but thanks

[bemildred]

33. Sounds downright American, somehow. nt

[sabbat hunter]

36. it is due to the

odd proportional system they have. A party only needs 2% to get seats in the Knesset. So Kadima which got 2.09% of the vote in 2013 legislative election, they got 2 seats. Balad which got 2.56% got 3 seats. Shas at 8.75% got 11 seates.

[azurnoir]

38. yes I'll agree that it must be an odd system when 31 = 23% of 120

thanks

[LeftishBrit]

39. It's because even in Israel it's not literally pure PR and there are quite a few parties that don't

reach the threshold for a seat. This leads to slight over-representation of the dominant parties.

However, 26% of the seats with 23% of the popular vote is at least closer to pure PR than 47% of the seats with 36% of the vote (Tories in current UK parliament), or 61% of the seats with 42.4% of the vote (Tories in UK parliament, 1983, the height of Thatcherism).

As I've said, I think both the Israeli and British systems distort democracy rather badly, for different reasons.

[sabbat hunter]

40. problem is that

a low threshold also leads to unstable coalitions, with the need for many parties to form a government, often with parties that have divergent platforms.

[sabbat hunter]

37. for a short time

in Israel they would cast two votes, one for the party, one for the PM they wanted. But that system was cumbersome and led to a series of unstable coalitions, as people voted for one person for PM, but then the opposing party won the most votes in knesset.

[bemildred]

26. Didn't Livni actually get more votes? And then Peres selected Bibi to form the gov't? nt

[shira]

28. Yep, Livni got more votes in 2008. But she couldn't form a coalition. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

29. That was in the previous, 2009 election; not the latest one

But is another example of how the Israeli electoral system is often undemocratic in its effects (just as the British and American systems are, for different reasons).

[bemildred]

31. Thank you. nt

[azurnoir]

32. This time around Bibi gifted Livni with

what I think of as a fools errand, when it was announced she was chosen to be Israel's representative at the current round of negotiations, I felt sorry for her-well almost

[Israeli]

41. No bemildred , last elections were a disaster for her .

Tzipi’s defeat – just 6 seats - was pitiable. She joined the fray only two months ago, after a lot of hesitation, which seems to be her trademark. Her single-minded concentration on the “political arrangement” with the Palestinians – not “peace”, God forbid – ran against the trend.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1359071590/

You should read the complete above link to get a better understanding of the results .

[bemildred]

44. Ah, thank you.

That explains a lot of things, the clock is ticking in Bibi''s ear.

Many thank yous, actually, very informative.

I'd not read Uri in some time, since Haaretz got annoying with their paywall. I don't blame Haaretz, mind you, but I don't read them either. And I sort of stopped paying attention when Bibi was first elected, I guess. These nationalist right-wingers are all pretty much the same as far as the results of their governance. The list is long and it gets boring.

Yes, I think Livni always had mixed feelings, so to speak.

And now I read about it, it all comes back, last Spring. As you can imagine, I've had other things on my mind here at home.

This would seem to make bombing anybody more difficult?

[Israeli]

45. you dont need Haaretz to read Uri ...

bookmark here :

http://avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

yes, I agree with what you have written above .

[delrem]

46. Again, thank you.

There's too much to read, and think through, in this world!

I get the understanding that "post-Zionist" ideas grasp and synthesize two points of view.
1. The past: The Zionist project has built "facts on the ground" where is established a flourishing culture.
2. The future: the project of post-Zionism is to integrate that flourishing culture with the generations-deep cultures of an indigenous population that, of course, has lots to offer.

That's... very positive.

The future is way bigger than the past!

[Israeli]

49. Agreed delrem...

ref: " There's too much to read, and think through, in this world! "

So I give you this instead of words :

ref: " The future is way bigger than the past! "

From the video :

" and it is written we too shall change " ---- Yehuda Amichai .

" I had enough yesterdays; what I need is a tomorrow." ----- Mahmoud Darwish.

The only future we have is together .

[delrem]

50. That gave me a tingling going up and down my whole body.

I'm a sucker for peacenik poetry.

[Israeli]

51. Not sure if your being sarcastic or not ....

but ... its one thing we have plenty of ....sometimes I think its all we have got .

Least its better than the hatred our Right wing spews out .

Problem is most is in Hebrew delrem so its hard to give examples .

Yitzhak Laor is the best known post zionist poet ....and his poetry is really difficult to translate , so I'm not even going to try .

So I give you these instead :

“To die for an idea”

by Yossi Banai/Georges Brassens

To die for an idea, that’s a great idea

But I’m still alive because it hasn’t come into my head

And the prophets of doom continue to preach

Flags and slogans they don’t stop waving

And one day as we march to a coming war

Upright and overflowing with pride

We’ll find out that we died for nothing

Because of a small glitch

We died of an idea that has long been out of fashion

To die for an idea — yes, it’s a real good commandment

But better to die slowly, slowly, of old age

Because what is an ideal today, tomorrow will turn out

To have been a mistake, and then another ideal will pop up

*******

and the latest from Peace Now with a translation :

http://peacenow.org.il/eng/sirtonEng

[delrem]

52. sarcasm was infinitely remote

[Israeli]

53. ok ..

sorry ....its difficult to tell on here sometimes .

almost as difficult as understanding why American Zionists who voted for Obama continue to defend the occupation and the most Right wing Gov in our history and who de-legitimize the Israeli Left any chance they get .

[shira]

54. You confuse support for Israel with support for a rightwing gov't....

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Our support of Israel would be the same if Meretz/Labor were in charge, like they were back in the late 1990's. We supported Israel then just as we support it now.

That support is against those who wish Israel and its people harm by supporting terror against Israelis, being against 2-states, hating all Jews except for the very few anti-zionists....

The point is that the haters, terror supporters, and 1-staters who want Israel gone ALSO hate Meretz/Labor and the post-zionists. They are in no way mere critics of Israel. They are the warmongers against a peaceful resolution. It doesn't matter to them whether Meretz or Likud is in charge. To them, post-zionists and ultra-rightwing zionists are the same. I'm certain you know that. They see you, a post-zionist for 2 states, as an apologist for the continued existence of a racist, nazi-state for the Jews.

But as I understand things, you're very sympathetic to these haters and supporters of Hamas who want 1-state and see you as the equivalent of the most rabid kahanists.....all are just damned Jews to them.

I wonder why you have such an affinity towards them when they think so little of you & your movement.

[delrem]

57. When you begin with "Our support of Israel....",

you have already granted that you are a sockpuppet of some organization.
You're claiming that you don't speak for yourself, you speak for some general population, some organization.

I don't think it's true that you speak equally for any left-wing pro-Israel organization.
You've shown no inkling of what that would mean.

[King_David]

59. 'sockpuppet ' ??

PUT UP OR SHUTUP...

How many hidden posts do you have now?

[delrem]

60. Well, Dave, I can only say "watch the blood pressure". nt

[King_David]

61. You get that this little forum here does not in any way influence events ?

You do understand this ?

[delrem]

62. WTF point do you think you're making, Dave - and what relevance does it have to I/P discussions?

[King_David]

70. Hostile...

You understand that this is only a discussion board ?

[delrem]

123. Humans just aren't all so peaceful as you, Dave.

If we only were, there would be no war.

Now, aside from that, what was your point? Anything more than the usual trolling?

[King_David]

130. Your on a roll,

Accusing fellow DU members of being from Stormfront and now "trolling"?

No wonder your transparency page is umm transparent.

[delrem]

133. I'm just mentioning stormfront language and tactics, Dave.

I'm sure you alert every damn post I make, whether here or elsewhere, so take your recently pedicured feet and run with it, Dave.

[King_David]

135. Well I know nothing about 'stormfront language'

So I will have to accept your word as someone who obviously does know about it.

So please help the rest of the group out with a link because the Jewish posters here in this Forum are not welcome on that anti Zionist website and myself being Gay am certainly not welcome there.

But one thing I am sure of, is that the Anti-Zionist rhetoric on that website your referencing and frequenting is identical to a lot of the stuff found here.

[delrem]

138. Well Dave, you and your so recently pedicured hasbarists

(using the stormfront-like terminology that you recently used to describe Palestinians protesting the Separation Wall) certainly do know how to use stromfront-like tactics. It's interesting that such a mirroring occurs - even tho' stormfront uses those purely evil tactics and terminology as weapon of a so-called "Aryan nation", to malign those they target for abuse. I wonder why such mirroring occurs? We all know why the Aryan Nations bastards use those tactics and that terminology, to drum up hate and fear and self-righteousness. It's because that's all they have - and that's all that they are about. Do you think that might be it?

[King_David]

139. No idea,

I don't understand all your "Stormfront " talk ... Just astounded to hear it here on DU..

Being a Jew and a Gay dude I have had real life dealings with the ugly side.

[delrem]

140. Take a close look in the mirror, Dave.

Consider what you're doing when you describe the Palestinians tearing down the wall (as futile and symbolic as it was, considering their absolute subjection by the occupier) as:
"stamping their recently pedicured feet, to tear down a wall. A wall protecting the Jewish People from monsters"

Quite frankly, at first I was astounded to see stormfront tactics like that on DU (that's the very least of it), but now that I've been here awhile I've been inured to its use by hasbarists like shira and her doppelganger, you.

I call that kind of language *nasty*, Dave. What about you?

[King_David]

141. Gawd it is so difficult when people just do not get it,

"stamping their recently pedicured feet,'

Is a reference to those in the west that take up the 'cause' because Israel IS The Jewish State.

The ISM who wish to lead the Palestinians.

The Latte crowd in Toronto that used to save the Whales but are now obsessed with Jews.

(they never did allow us to join their golf and country clubs anyway, or do residencies in their hospitals /Hence Mt Sinai Medical Centers)

The Extreme right wing that supports Rob Ford and also tearing down 'Apartheid Walls'

The 'Internationals' that got tired of going on cruises and now tour Gaza Dahling....

[delrem]

142. I think most "get" what you're saying, Dave.

You and your doppelgangers use simple, basic, hasbara tropes to dehumanize the Palestinian people.

[King_David]

144. I was talking about The Fat Cats in Toronto

Nothing to do with Palestinians




I edited my original post just in case there is another that does not get it. (highly unlikely)

[King_David]

143. 'I call that kind of language *nasty*, Dave. What about you?'

Strange you should call it 'Nasty' LOL

You do not even understand it ... LOL

You still think I was talking about a Palestinian when I was talking about Fat Cat dudes in Canada , you know the type that never allowed us onto their beaches and country clubs and golf clubs and medical and law schools and firms and hospitals.

The ones who are now obsessed with The Jewish State.

ROFLMA

(If it ever happens again that you just do not get something , PM myself and I will explain it to you...Discreetly )

[nomorenomore08]

66. This was a 6-0 leave BTW...

[King_David]

71. What do you mean?

[nomorenomore08]

103. Somebody alerted on your post. Which I thought was a bit ridiculous considering how mild it was.

[King_David]

131. Oh thanks for the heads up,

[shira]

68. Those who support Israel are against those who want it destroyed, dismantled, ended.....

Period. End of story. Supporters want Israel to continue to exist.

Your new and alleged BFF here, Israeli, supports 2 states; one being an Arab Palestinian state - the other being an Israel with a Jewish majority. That makes her your enemy because that's precisely what the vast majority of Zionist supporters of Israel (both left and right wing) support. Almost the entirety of Israel's Leftwing, zionists, post-zionists, non-zionists....all support Israel existing (aside from the few hundreds of Jews who are antizionists, and many of them are the nutballs from Neturei Karta).

If Israeli had her way, as you see things, Israel would continue as a racist injustice against the Palestinians that you would still call a Nazi apartheid state, unworthy of existence. A state founded on ethnic cleansing and genocide that would continue to exist. That's what Israeli supports, as you see the situation, not as she sees it. So let's cut the shit.

Now of course Israeli can say all she wants that she prefers a better Israel, free of discrimination, and wants it to become a progressive model for the world. Totally equal rights, better than any other nation on the planet and in the history of the world.

But that's not good enough for you, for if it were, you'd be just a mere critic of Israel and you'd work to see Israel becoming the best that it can possibly be. You wouldn't be calling for its dismantlement, utter destruction, and replacement with yet another failed Arab majority, human-rights shit hole in the mold of Syria, Egypt, or Jordan.

And let's face it, that is exactly what you want, as there aren't enough Palestinian Arabs outside of Israel who desire a 1-state progressive, liberal democracy with full equal rights, free of discrimination against women, gays, blacks, jews, and christians. They want something like one of Israel's neighboring Arab states, with sharia law as the base.

And THAT is what you support as well. Deny it all you wish. It's why supporters of Israel see you as a hate-filled enemy against peace, against human rights, a supporter of Hamas resistance "terror" against the oppressors, etc. It's why no elected Democrats hold your views on I/P, as your views are insanely extreme fringe and a total betrayal of liberal/progressive values.

[Israeli]

69. :)

http://vimeo.com/35660324

[King_David]

78. Ha Ha , that was great,

Here is another one for you

&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLOZeWZk7sC2dqKGLr5UnwszQN-nwgKyMD

[shira]

83. Hilarious! n/t

[Israeli]

85. Happy you enjoyed it .....

Its sooooooooooo much so you shira

[delrem]

55. The music was different from what I'm used to & in a folk tradition that I've always liked.

When typing the note a vision of Chris Mathews (that weather-vane of a 'pundit') getting "thrills running up his leg" from politicians he's gushing over. So it was a daft comment

That bunch of American Zionists all speak with the identical voice except for some stylistic differences, and it doesn't make a lick of sense unless I guess that it's an extreme right hasbara rat-pack -- or sock-pack. They don't only disparage the Israeli left, they disparage *anything* not in perfect accord with their hasbara program, and their only techniques are rote hasbara attack formulas.
They disparage the "left" in general - or the insane caricature that that they make of the "left". The caricature they make of Arabs in general, of Palestinian Arabs in particular, goes way over the line into pure stormfront verbiage, something that would NOT be tolerated on DU if aimed at any other target group.

They don't seem to understand that people can examine and have respect for multiple points of view, even while favoring one analysis. E.g. your link to the Uri Avnery & Ilan Pappe one/two state debate
http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe110607.htm
I was mocked for respecting both views, for seeing that both speakers were seeking an avenue toward peace. And for having friendly exchanges with you.

Oh hell, who can understand the batshit crazy extreme right? not me..

[Israeli]

65. You have just described the Israeli Right wing delrem....

them I know , them I get .

My question is .... " why do American Zionists who voted for Obama continue to defend the occupation and the most Right wing Gov in our history and who de-legitimize the Israeli Left any chance they get "

I dont get American Jews who voted for Obama and yet support this Gov and its policies .
Its totally illogical .

So I did a little research of my own and found this :

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/exile-and-the-prophetic-obamas-and-our-jewish-politics.html

Self-interest is confirmed by the opposite trend: When Israel is challenged Jews threaten to pick up their ball and choose another party. First, of course, the party of choice, the Democratic Party, is cautioned. Come back to bedrock Israel support and all will be forgiven. Not only will all be forgiven, Jewish support for liberal issues will continue unabated. This is another veiled threat. If support for Israel is withdrawn, Jews will withdraw their support from other liberal agendas.

Take Gay rights. Though there are straight and Gay activists that see the broader spectrum of justice issues to include Israel/Palestine, most are naturally focused on their main issue. If the choice is to keep to the broader spectrum and jeopardize your main issue, which one do you choose? This is true with feminist issues as well.

Not only can the support of influential Jewish supporters be lost, those critical of Israeli policies can also be branded as outside the mainstream of the issue focused on. The question isn’t only finding other supporters when some Jews drop out. The reputation of the critical thinker is at jeopardy within his own issue.

Activists on Israel/Palestine have to go with the possibility that Obama will get tough with Israel soon. Yet what does ‘getting tough with Israel’ mean in the American political lexicon?

So President Obama’s second term (Jewish) politics is complex. He has to deal with the Jewish vote in the broadest sense of the term. At least, the Jewish vote that registers on the Democratic Party’s radar screen. But, then, (Jewish) politics on the Left, doesn’t register at all.

Jews of Conscience are off the (Jewish) politics radar screen. So what’s a Jew of Conscience to do?

I welcome an opinion on the above link from someone who voted for Obama .

[King_David]

58. 'To die for an idea' ?

Huh , how original...Try Trumpuldor

[Israeli]

63. .................

and

[Israeli]

67. you try Trumpuldor....

so which country are you willing to die for King_David ???????????

If I had to choose which Israeli music suits you the best it would be this :

http://972mag.com/israeli-rapper-first-burn-all-jails-with-palestinians-inside-then-destroy-jenin/81922/



but there again ... your not Israeli are you ?

[King_David]

72. No but Israel is my birthright ,

My Grandparents were born in Palestine , where were yours born?

See how silly this argument is between Jews .

I give you that you are Israeli and I am not (yet) and that your family has fulfilled the ultimate Zionist acts and deeds and I respect and admire all your family for this.

[Israeli]

75. I dont consider this argument to be between Jews King_David...

I consider it between Left versus Right... or Left versus wrong .

I could not care less where your grandparents were born or what your religious believes are or even your sexual preferences .

" and I respect and admire all your family for this " .... sure you do

Pull the other one King_David...... its got bells on it .

[King_David]

76. Well your views are not LEFT

They are strange. Marginal.

Left is The Democratic Party of the USA and Barack Obama,and those are my views.

SEXUAL PREFERENCE???? WTF and you think your views are LEFT ??

Just FYI it is an ORIENTATION and NOT a PREFERENCE !

[Israeli]

79. they are ...

I assure you ... I'm Israeli Left .

" They are strange. Marginal. " ....how so ?

" Left is The Democratic Party of the USA and Barack Obama,and those are my views. "

I dont dispute that ....I just dont understand how you , and those like you , can support Obama and Bibi in the same breath ???

[King_David]

80. I don't support Bibi ,

And you do not care my Grandparents were born in Palestine ?


Mhhh a lot of the people you are finding kinshipwith, who hate everything Jewish and are Uber Right wing (Such as David Duke ) and Uber left wing (such as Greta Berlin and other ISM and 'internationals' anti semites) really do think it is important where a lot of peoples Grand parents are born.

When it comes to the Jewish State , they care very very much if someones Parents,Grand-Parents,Great Great Great Grandparents are born in Palestine. They call it ROR, or Right of Return.


And my 'religious beliefs' that you keep referencing ? They are non existent...I am an Atheist...I do not Believe in G-D.

[Israeli]

89. Okay ...

You dont support Bibi .... so let us pretend that you could vote in our elections ...who would you vote for and why ?

And my 'religious beliefs' that you keep referencing ? They are non existent...I am an Atheist...I do not Believe in G-D.

Whatever King_David.....but ... someone who does not believe in GOD has no problem spelling out clearly GOD ... and why in the name of GOD would an atheist choose a nick of King_David ???

[King_David]

96. Uzi Even

1st was Meretz then was Labor.

[shira]

84. How strange...you believe the zionists here support Bibi? Really?

You think we support Lieberman too?

Finally, you think our support of Israel would be less if Meretz/Labor were in charge like they were back in the 90's?

[Israeli]

93. to quote yourself shira ....

" I don't think you're capable of telling reality from fiction anymore. "

I remind you of what you have had to say on here about Shulamit Aloni and
Machsom Watch , as only two examples.......never mind all of the other Israeli Left wing NGO's that you have abused during your posting career.

Your kind of support we dont need .

You want to support my country .... do us all a favor and shut the fuck up .

[Jefferson23]

94. LOL, +100. n/t

[shira]

95. According to your logic, I'd become anti-Israel if Meretz won an election...

You'd presumably become a supporter of Israel with Meretz in charge.

That's how it works in your mind apparently...

That's just fascinating.

Sorry to inform you, but Meretz is a liberal ZIONIST political party. I'd have no problem with them in power. My support for Israel would remain the same.

How about yourself?

============

And BTW, I realize you're really upset about my dislike for Shulamit Aloni. But as I understand you, I realize you're against ANY criticism of those who hold similar political views to your own. Do you not see how DUMB that is? Even Netanyahu's rightwing supporters criticize him all the time and many have turned against him. But not you. You have your heroes and heroines and you stick by them thick and thin. It's cult-like.

Am I warm?

Politicians are liars by trade. All of them. Every last one. They're not gods who should be worshipped. You need to wake up.

[azurnoir]

98. +200

[bravenak]

109. I'm so glad somebody said that.

I don't see Shira as representing Israel at all. She scares me.

[King_David]

136. You definatly do not speak for any large group of Israelis

What with your little cult of Posterior Zionists?

But I will give you this, you sure have a fan club here on DU with the same amount of people.

[King_David]

73. I don't like that awful hateful rap music you enjoy, sorry I don't like your recommendations,but

Here is something I will recommend for you, I love it, Tel Aviv,Hilton Beach...

Anyone wanting more info on Birthright LGBTQ “Rainbow” trip. The Israel Experience :

http://www.freejourneytoisrael.org/trips-2/specialty-trips/lgbtq-the-rainbow-trip/

[Israeli]

77. I'm 63 King_David...

I dont like any rap music ... my tastes are more Shlomo Artzi and Gidi Gov .

But on a purely political (Israeli/Jewish) level ....my preferences are for Hadag Nahash over Subliminal any day .

[King_David]

82. ' There's too much to read, and think through, in this world! '

True , I do not follow the Bulgarian problems at all. I stick with the Jewish world because I am Jewish and

'There's too much to read, and think through, in this world! '

But there's a huge amount of other people who find lots and lots of time to devote to The Jewish State and obsess over it.


Ultra Right wingers such as David Duke and ultra Left wingers such as Greta Berlin are totally obsessed with Israel/The Jewish State.

[bemildred]

48. Damn! He is 90? Now I am impressed. nt

[Israeli]

21. for some reason !!! ???

He would not be in power without them .

Likud is Right wing sabbat hunter .
I mean really ....its like asking Obama to join up with George Bush.

Shelly Yachimovich chose not to join him with very good reasons not to
see : http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-meets-with-labor-leader/

Apart from that Avoda voters hate Bibi ...... they have never forgiven him for his part in the incitement that led to Rabin's assassination for a start . Joining Bibi was the beginning of the end of Ehud Barak's political career ....Shelly Yachimovich knows her voters and if she had gone with Bibi it would have been her downfall to .

[azurnoir]

20. I think the answer is quite simple

he has no intention of allowing it to ever be Palestine

[bemildred]

24. Yep, that's the "strategic goal", all those "facts on the ground" just make it "impossible" now ...

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Bingo! n/t

[azurnoir]

43. sadly yep seems that way n/t

[mwrguy]

35. It is ethnic cleansing

Pushing the natives out of their lands.

[gopiscrap]

137. Interesting comment