Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumRevealed: What a partitioned Jerusalem would look like
An Israeli firm has been working for 10 years to perfect plans that would transform the city's 'natural' urban boundaries into a border between two future countries, in a nonthreatening and aesthetic manner.By Nir Hasson | May 27, 2014
Almost since Jerusalem was reunited after the Six-Day War 47 years ago an event being commemorated today, Jerusalem Day various ideas have been proposed as to how the city can be redivided. Possible partition lines were drawn during peace talks at Camp David and Taba in 2000-2001, in U.S. President Bill Clintons Oval Office and in the bureaus of former Prime Ministers Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.
But for the most part, these discussions ended with drawing lines on a map and debate over how to apportion sovereignty to the sites in the area known as the Holy Basin, which includes the Old City and its immediate surroundings.
Very few, if any, sought to figure out whether Jerusalem could actually be divided again and if so, how would the border look? Would a wall be built in the heart of the city? Where would the crossing points be, and who would be able to use them? What would become of the network of roads and the public transportation system in the area? And so on and so forth.
Click here for the interactive map ( at link )
It is these questions that an Israel-based group of architects headed by Yehuda Greenfield-Gilat and Karen Lee Bar-Sinai have been trying to answer for 10 years now. Decision makers from all the parties concerned are very familiar with their plans. At one meeting between Olmert and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, for example, the Israeli premier presented the architects suggestions for a future border crossing between the Sheikh Jarrah and Beit Yisrael neighborhoods in Jerusalem.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.595575
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Don't you just hate historical precedents? When has such an artificial imposition EVER been stable?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Explain what would be stable in your mind on Jerusalem...how should it be divided?
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)You got any historical example of one that is?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)related to Berlin, and how should Jerusalem be divided?
It is not a stable idea, because in your mind it is artificial...how so?
Israel annexed Jerusalem claiming it as their capital. Where is the US Embassy? Tel Aviv...for a reason
not a coincidence.
Under international law East Jerusalem belongs to the Palestinians, so why would you need
to look for a reason in history to deny them their right?
You only need to look at what they have now, a division that does not work well for one
party. Lincoln had an entire nation that was divided on slavery never mind a city...it worked out
well in the end.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)to deny anything Palestinian.
Land
Human rights
Religion
Life
Property
A nation....
Strangely enough Israel has done a great job of disenfranchising the Palestinian people. One would imagine that they would remember their wanderings in exile and realize they are doing the exact same thing to another people.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Nothing but diversions and denials, and repeating rhetorical questions that have already been addressed.
I did get a laugh out of your reference to Abraham Lincoln though. You know - the guy who said that a house divided can not stand? It directly contradicts your position, but then logic has never been your strength, just bluster.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Keep laughing, the Israeli government has become a bad joke to the world, and
their attitude is similar to yours.
You addressed nothing, answered no questions.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Are you really that oblivious or just playing dumb?
Not that it really matters either way, functionally they're pretty much the same. I've learned not to expect any better from you.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The division ended by a civil war the South lost, you're suggesting there can
be no division at all.
On edit: You have yet to answer one question you were asked.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)but it does suggest I'm dealing with a "why not both?" situation.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)We all know that the pre 1967 division of Jerusalem will not work at all . Check the old records for what Jordan did to the area around the Kotel. That will never be allowed to happen again .
I'm thinking Jerusalem will never be divided to anyone's satisfaction anytime in this century .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but yet even under Jordanian rule the Kotel was left standing
Mosby
(16,366 posts)Anytime from 1948 to 1967 and yet they didn't.
Why is that?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for Jordanians only? Was Jordan destroying Palestinian cisterns and wells? Was Jordan destroying olive groves? Was Jordan walling off areas for Jordanians only?
Mosby
(16,366 posts)Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)
During the illegal Jordanian occupation of Palestine:
The Jordanians forcibly expelled all the Jews living in east Jerusalem.
The Jordanians destroyed 34 synagogues and numerous historic buildings in the west bank.
The Jordanians desecrated the jewish cemetery on the mount of olives.
In 1950 king hussein formally annexed the west bank.
In 1953 king hussein claimed east jerusalem at the alternate capitol of the Hashemites.
Sure doesn't seem like the Jordanians gave two shits about the Palestinians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but your reply was not unexpected -thanks
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)those with unsupported opinions who support the status quo will carry the burden of being responsible
for a peace process that will fail.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's the big compromise the Palestinians eventually will make if they want their independence .
It will be the only realistic solution.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)This in order to attain independence and probably to the disappointment of all the USA non Palestinian keyboard warriors that consider themselves "leaders " of the Palestinian resistance against the enemy Zionist Jews.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)And keep your headphones on loud, as the majority of the world understands that
if there is no justice for the Palestinians, if Abbas sells them out, peace will not
be possible.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Is directly affected and involved in it all.
That can't be said for half the people posting in this forum even if they do consider themselves the true "leaders" of the Palestinian people and fascinating enough even believe they speak for us Jews but that's another story . Greta Berlin taught us all well...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You have a rolodex of who posts here, where they're from and their background you
seem to believe, lol.
Good luck.
Israel winning does not mean there will be peace.
King_David
(14,851 posts)We have been told many times here that the AntiZionist here in this forum are the true voices of us Jews.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)snip*That can't be said for half the people posting in this forum even if they do consider themselves the true "leaders" of the Palestinian people and fascinating enough even believe they speak for us Jews but that's another story . Greta Berlin taught us all well...
Lots of rhetoric.
King_David
(14,851 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,835 posts)The newer parts east of the old city? The old city itself?
Jerusalem was supposed to be internationalized. Israel accepted that in 1948, the Palestinian leaders stupidly rejected it. That does not mean the default position of Jerusalem goes to Palestine, because there was no independent state of Palestine at the time. The borders had to be determined by both sides. One side rejected them. Therefore those lines are moot.
Is it possible that there can be a joint political control over the old city? I think some of the conditions would have to be that neither side has political offices inside the old city and that holy places are administered by the various religions. It will be EXTREMELY difficult to have a proper border crossing in the old city, so something would need to be set up outside the old city on both sides.
Sadly, I do not see either side having a leader strong enough or a big enough believer in peace for this to happen.
If I was the leader of Israel, I would immediately withdraw from all of the west bank, except for the old city (and the immediate environs so it is not surrounded by hostile territory), erect a barrier/wall/fence, along those lines.
The Palestinians for a long time were hurt due to corrupt leadership (Arafat) and irresponsible Arab brethren who gave them bad advice.
Israel's current PM and FM seemingly have no interest in negotiating with Abbas. Livini was supposed to be in charge of those negotiations but she has been hamstrung. If she had any convictions left, she would leave the coalition.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)established. The US, and we can go back and post what Hillary Clinton stated in the past,
settlements in East Jerusalem are not legitimate, the US considers them as the ICJ and UN, UNSC does,
as Palestinian occupied territory.
Arafat corrupt? Absolutely, but I guess I get a bit irked when I see him singled out as the enterprise
of occupation enters 47 years now..I don't see the Israeli side as honorable actors at all.
They have always had the political and military advantages. Abbas is a leader with a great deal
of corrupt baggage, and we learned recently that three years ago he would agree to concede
most of the West Bank and other outrageous concessions. Abbas's people did not know he
was willing to do this!
This tells you a great deal about Abbas and it also explains the more recent failed talks.
Very similar to the deal 3 years ago, but this time it included the Arab League agreeing to Kerry's
plan. Which was to change their initiative to include land swaps that would leave the majority of
the West bank to Israel. The only part of East Jerusalem would be a town sized area. As you know,
the talks failed as the news hit regarding further settlement development was released...Israel
went too far.
I don't know what Abbas will do now, I was shocked but in a good way that he walked away..so we'll see.
I support the Palestinian people, if they are not left with a viable state in the truest meaning
of the term, I do not see how it will be possible for peace to thrive. Much has been written
on this scenario, and it is short sighted to say the least to allow it to happen. Abbas may leave
himself with a target on his back if he does not do right by his people. The Israeli government
and their pro settlement supporters may win the territory for good but it will not bring peace, how
do you reconcile that failure to the world? Such acts will only encourage more resentment and hatred
toward Israel.
I am leaving links to articles that highlight support for East Jerusalem as the OPT and the concessions
Abbas was willing to make..not that he was acting responsibly, but it highlights the current Israeli
administration's refusal to make any concessions, period. I felt this OP gave a clear approach to
accomplishing what should be the goal, with a tangible way to move forward.
snip* The proposals were made by Abbas repeatedly over the past three years.
He agreed that IDF troops could stay in the Jordan Valley for five years and then be replaced by NATO troops. He agreed that Israel would annex the main settlement blocs leaving about 80 percent of the settlers under Israeli sovereignty in exchange for equal land swaps adjacent to the Green Line. Abbas agreed that the Jewish neighborhoods of east Jerusalem (which the Palestinians consider settlements) would remain under Jewish sovereignty, including the Jewish quarter of the Old City and the Kotel as well.
In nine months of negotiations what did Netanyahu offer? Nothing! There was not one Israeli proposal. Not one Israeli initiative was put on the table. The only thing Israel offered was what it was not willing to accept.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Encountering-Peace-From-David-to-Goliath-352979
snip* It is no secret what the Kerry plan will look like. If he is to have any chance of success, Kerry cannot fight a war on two fronts. Israel constitutes a strategic asset of the US and can count on the clout of a powerful domestic lobby. It is consequently in a far stronger position than Palestinians to resist Washingtons orders. Judging by both official and insider statements, the Secretary of State has therefore appropriated Israels minimal demands as his own; the Kerry process refers to his efforts to foist these on the Palestinians. Kerrys proposal will see Israel annex some 10 percent of the West Bank, including the critical water resources and some of the most arable land. The new border, which will run along the path of the Wall that Israel has been constructing, will incorporate the major Jewish settlement blocs, put municipal East Jerusalem on the Israeli side (except for some 100,000 Arab Jerusalemites who, along with the neighbourhoods in which they reside, will be excluded), and effectively trisect the West Bank. A makeshift arrangement will be worked out enabling the Palestinians (together with the Kingdom of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Organization of Islamic Cooperation) to serve as custodian of the Muslim holy sites in the Old City, while Israel preserves overall sovereignty.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/the_end_of_palestine_its_time_to_sound_an_alarm
snip* Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told the American Israel Public Affairs Council on Monday that "Jerusalem is not a settlement." He continued that the historical connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel cannot be denied. He added that neither could the historical connection between the Jewish people and Jerusalem. He insisted, "The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 years ago and the Jewish people are building Jerusalem today." He said, "Jerusalem is not a settlement. It is our capital." He told his applauding audience of 7500 that he was simply following the policies of all Israeli governments since the 1967 conquest of Jerusalem in the Six Day War.
Netanyahu mixed together Romantic-nationalist cliches with a series of historically false assertions. But even more important was everything he left out of the history, and his citation of his warped and inaccurate history instead of considering laws, rights or common human decency toward others not of his ethnic group.
So here are the reasons that Netanyahu is profoundly wrong, and East Jerusalem does not belong to him.
1. In international law, East Jerusalem is occupied territory, as are the parts of the West Bank that Israel unilaterally annexed to its district of Jerusalem. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907 forbid occupying powers to alter the lifeways of civilians who are occupied, and forbid the settling of people from the occupiers' country in the occupied territory. Israel's expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, its usurpation of Palestinian property there, and its settling of Israelis on Palestinian land are all gross violations of international law. Israeli claims that they are not occupying Palestinians because the Palestinians have no state are cruel and tautological. Israeli claims that they are building on empty territory are laughable. My back yard is empty, but that does not give Netanyahu the right to put up an apartment complex on it.
2. Israeli governments have not in fact been united or consistent about what to do with East Jerusalem and the West Bank, contrary to what Netanyahu says. The Galili Plan for settlements in the West Bank was adopted only in 1973. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin gave undertakings as part of the Oslo Peace Process to withdraw from Palestinian territory and grant Palestinians a state, promises for which he was assassinated by the Israeli far right (elements of which are now supporting Netanyahu's government). As late as 2000, then Prime Minister Ehud Barak claims that he gave oral assurances that Palestinians could have almost all of the West Bank and could have some arrangement by which East Jerusalem could be its capital. Netanyahu tried to give the impression that far rightwing Likud policy on East Jerusalem and the West Bank has been shared by all previous Israeli governments, but this is simply not true.
http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)wasn't it because there were still familial connections between people on both sides? Wasn't it because of the well publicized escape attempts by people on the Eastern side? Wasn't it because of many reasons that really do not seem to have much comparison here?
I'll be anticipating your reply
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)My point is that it fell because the situation was artificial and unstable.
The local circumstances you raise are interesting in themselves with regard to that particular case, but irrelevant to the general point.
The forcible re-division and ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem you propose would be even more artificial and unstable. And FWIW, there would still be people on either side wanting the division to end and familial connections between people on both sides.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and BTW I didn't propose anything I just stated the obvious