Those TV cameras responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza

[shira]

I write this as a member of the press. I’m proud to be a journalist and a documentary filmmaker. I’m a member of the Foreign Press Association in Israel, and the co-recipient of this year’s Edward R. Murrow Award from the American Overseas Press Club. I say this off the top because I’m not an outsider pointing my finger at the media. Every year, journalists sacrifice their lives in war zones so as to keep us informed and protect freedom of the press, a cornerstone of democracy.

But the fact is that when it comes to Israel, the media has acted irresponsibly. Good journalism has been replaced by politically correct misreporting, and one of the net results is that Palestinian civilians, including children, are paying with their lives. How so?

There is no group that can be more evil, in the narrowest sense of the word, than the rulers of the Gaza strip, Hamas. They are openly anti-democratic, anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-Israel, anti-American and anti-Western. The list continues. These are the people who distributed candies, danced in the street and openly celebrated after 9/11.

I simply don’t know what else they could do to make Westerners dislike them. For good measure, they are anti-Palestinian nationalism. They don’t believe in a Palestinian state. They believe that “statehood” is a Western invention. They also believe in the destruction of the Jewish state as a step toward an international Islamic Republic. And yet, despite all of this, they are portrayed as freedom fighters by much of the international media.

The Western press has taught them that if they turn their children into props, they will win the propaganda war against Israel.

cont'd...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/cnn-bbc-and-the-like-are-responsible-for-civilian-deaths-in-gaza/

[shira]

1. more...

Hamas has understood what the ideology of terror has clearly espoused for over a hundred years. When attacking a democracy, the terrorist has to put it in a quandary. The way to do that is to force the democracy to kill civilians. So if you set up your terror-base under a school or a hospital, you’ve got it made in the shade. You launch missiles, for example, against Israel. Now the Israelis have a choice. Either they don’t respond, in which case the terror mounts in the face of ongoing impotence, or they do respond, in which case you’re going to have civilian deaths and dramatic pictures for the West’s nightly news.

Basically, the Western media has taught Hamas that it doesn’t matter how downright evil you are. It doesn’t matter if you launch two thousand missiles at civilian targets, including the airport. It doesn’t matter if you use your own children as human shields. You’ll get the coverage you want if CNN, BBC et al. have props to point their cameras at. Our form of news-gathering has taught Hamas to turn their children into those props, and to sacrifice them on the altar of Jihad. By misreporting, our media has encouraged the bad guys to kill their own children, and has dragged Israel into a war it did not want.[/font]

Nissim Sean Carmeli was a 21 year old soldier in Golani, Israel’s marines. He emigrated here from Texas. Until a few years ago, he went to the high school around the corner from my house. He had plans to go to university, meet a girl, start a family. When a few weeks ago Hamas started raining hundreds of rockets down on Israeli civilians, nobody wanted to send Sean and his friends into Gaza. As in Afghanistan, that would involve house to house fighting with a ruthless enemy who knows the terrain and has booby trapped every passage. It would have been very easy for the Israeli Air Force to simply level entire blocks of Hamas dominated neighborhoods. Americans have done this with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan. But since Hamas plants its terror network beneath schools, hospitals and mosques, such a bombing mission would have involved high Palestinian casualties. So Israel decided not to level Gaza and send Sean in. He died so as to minimize Palestinian losses. I just came back from where his family is sitting Shiva, the Jewish custom of mourning. There were no anti-Arab speeches, no signs of militarism, just the tremendous grief of parents burying a child. As a journalist, I sat there and hung my head in shame, overwhelmed by the simple truth that while journalists feign concern for Palestinian kids, they are actually creating the environment for their deaths. In the meantime, Israelis like Sean are paying with their lives to avoid the very deaths they are being blamed for.[/font]

[bravenak]

2. Nobody supports Hamas here.

So i hope that's not what you are saying with this. As far as the media being responsible for the deaths. No. The media is not dropping bombs on anybody. We need to stop promoting killing on either side and stop the death and suffering. There is no good guy here.

[shira]

4. Bullshit. Pay better attention to what's being posted here.

And Hamas couldn't do what they do w/o a compliant media to help them.

SHAME!

[bravenak]

7. Shira. I have not seen anybody support Hamas and say they stand with Hamas on DU.

Hamas is like a cancer. It goes without saying that Hamas is bad. We just hold 'The Most Moral Army' to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. Shooting rockets at civilian areas is bad, no doubt. Shooting missiles at kids, there is NO EXCUSE for that, not even trying to get to a terrorist is a good enough reason to kill kids. I have kids. If somebody shot my kids to get to a bad guy, i'd rip their face off and not take any excuses. You know i lost a child. I never symapthize with child killers. Remember the Trayvon Martin case and Jordan Davis? Killing terrorists is no excuse to turn in to a terrorist. You have to be better than the bad guy so that we can actually identify the bad guy. The killing needs to end now.

Yes, i have noticed some antisemetic comments from blaming Jews all over the world to calling Jews Israelites. But you know i deal with some of the same stuff directed at black people, and it often doesn't get hidden and is accepted as truth. It's fucked up. If i see more i will alert it. But most people here are not like that. Most times here, critisism of Israel is critisism of it's right wing government and the occupation. We DO care more about Israel, so we feel invested.

[shira]

11. I've seen it & I can promise u I'm not the only one here who's seen it. n/t

[bravenak]

13. If it happens again, show me.

Many people try to understand why Hamas does what it does, and Netanyahu and the IDF is making it hard not to sympathize with the 700 dead Gazans. The lack of restraint by the IDF and the Istaeli govt makes Hamas look less bloodthirsty by comparison. Also, the lack of sympathy shown by Israeli leaders make it hard to take them seriously like they actually regret the civilian death. I would think that the outcry over the deaths would maje them more careful and stop killing civilians. Alas, no. Never become the evil you fight against. Netanyahu is like Cheney right now and the Knesset has gone all Bloodthirsty. I do not like right wingers. They hate people who look and think like me.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. The post to it.

Show where DUers have unequivocally written that they support Hamas.

[shira]

85. See #84. I'm not about to call anyone out. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

104. You're not doing anything except for

Blowing smoke up DU's backside.

[shira]

106. Show me where anyone hostile to Israel here....

....has condemned, in no uncertain terms, the war crimes Hamas commits against its own people during this current war.

You can't.

Now why can't you? What does that tell us about them & their view of Hamas?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

109. "11. I've seen it & I can promise u I'm not the only one here who's seen it. n/t"

You made an accusation that you cannot back up.

You are a counterfeit accuser, Shira.

[PCIntern]

95. Whoa Nellie!!!

That is really something...you have outdone yourself on that! My God, you really just said that and went there.

"Unequivocally", eh?

Wow...I have to thank you for the "revelation"!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

105. All I see is a lot of bluster and accusations yet no meat on the bone.

Ladies and gentlemen, the hasbarista express has run off the tracks.

[PCIntern]

108. I will spell it out for everyone else...

you used the word 'unequivocal'. That means that there is a tacit support for Hamas within limits...like maybe you would not like them so much if they killed other brands of Infidels...

The more you deny your true beliefs, the more apparent they are.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

110. Okay, Sherlock.

[PCIntern]

115. ,,,the last refuge of the incompetent. You lose. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

118. the last refuge of the incompetent is where they can not prove their allegations...

That's you. Live with it.

[PCIntern]

119. Guess what...

I don't owe you a thing. You can gnash your teeth all you want. You are going to lose this and every other battle for eternity as far as you are concerned.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

121. "You don't owe me a thing."

How prescient.

You are going to lose this and every other battle for eternity as far as you are concerned.

Eternity is a long time, battles come and go, and patience is running thin with Israel...as far as the world is concerned

[notadmblnd]

83. Please provide a link to it here.

I want to see where people said they support Hamas.

[shira]

84. I'm not calling anyone out here. But I'll ask you a question....

What do you make of people who deny, defend, minimize, or explain away Hamas' war crimes against its own peope?

Like firing and storing rockets among civilians, houses, schools, mosques? Human shielding....

[notadmblnd]

86. Then you have no credibility here

[shira]

88. Don't run away. Use me as an example of supporting Israel....

I support Israel despite the accusations of war crimes, etc. I deny they're happening until I see evidence of malicious intent. I see Israel doing everything they can to minimize casualties. Their past record proves their intent to me. I proudly support Israel, won't apologize, and understand what they're up against.

OTOH, there are many who deny Hamas' war crimes. The intent is obvious as they're trying to maximize civilian casualties. International Law (Geneva) forbids what they do. It's difficult describing these people as pro-Palestinian when they cover for these vile war crimes Hamas maliciously commits against Gazans.

So folks who deny this are __________? Not supporters?

Help me out here.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

128. "I support Israel despite the accusations of war crimes..."

Might makes right, eh shira?

[shira]

129. Ignoring/denying Hamas' war crimes vs its own people is VILE

Hamas cannot continue their crimes against humanity vs Palestinians w/o people who will cover for them, by putting the blame on Israel instead.

Those who cry about civilian casualties should be blaming Hamas. Hamas will stop once they realize they can no longer continue with their war crimes against Palestinian civilians. That's when this stops. Otherwise, Hamas will continue doing this and more Palestinians will die.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

130. Ignoring the ahem...Only Democracy in the Mid East...ahem

as they have created a butcher shop out of the Gaza strip is well, just sad.

I'm sure that David Duke and others believe that it is alright to murder those that are not like themselves.

[shira]

131. More pissing in the wind, and now David Duke?

Mondoweiss wrote an article about him recently which included a softball interview that Stormfront could have conducted. They allowed Duke to describe himself as a humanitarian, without comment.

Another new low for Mondoweiss.

Tell me, who here is posting one Mondoweiss article after the next?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

132. Well, shra. I posted it since some here like to bring up their friend David on a regular basis.

She has a lot in common with him: lies, deception, obscurity.

[Israeli]

3. Al-Jazeera Gaza offices evacuated after direct hit by Israeli fire

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/al-jazeera-gaza-offices-hit-israeli-fire

The incident came a day after Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, called for al-Jazeera to be banned.

Lieberman accused the Qatar-based channel of being a mouthpiece for Hamas, and said the foreign ministry was taking steps to prevent it from broadcasting from Gaza, according to Israel's Channel 2 TV.

[intaglio]

5. So Hamas are the majority of people in Gaza in your fantasy world?

I don't think so.

Is this opinion columnist saying that Gazans have no reason to be driven into the arms of extremists by the illegal and vicious actions of the Israeli government: starvation, concentration camps, torture, restricted travel, suppression of reportage, the illegal seizure of land, racism. Similar conditions drove many Jews into the arms of terrorists like Urgun and Lehi so by that measure the Arab actions against the nascent State of Israel in 1949 were justified.

Selective memory - the Israelis are fostering it.

[shira]

6. No. I don't know where you're getting that. And you're making shit up...

Starvation and concentration camps?



Why not include full on genocide?

[intaglio]

8. If you understood what a concentration camp was I might be impressed

You are talking to a Brit - you know the people who invented them and used them in South Africa?

The Palestinians in Gaza are imprisoned behind barbed wire; subject to summary execution if they go beyond that wire; they are starved and denied necessities; they are subject to summary purges; they were shipped into these camps and whilst their homes and possessions were confiscated.

They were shipped there, concentrated there, held there against their will, subject to privations, unable to exercise their human rights. What do you want to call Gaza? A holiday resort? I call Gaza a concentration camp because by any definition that is what it is; unless you are one of the lotus eating apologists for Israel.

[shira]

9. Disgusting comparison. SHAME! n/t

[intaglio]

14. Keep drinking the kool-aid

Gaza Is a Concentration Camp

One Israeli official promised a holocaust in Gaza; it is impossible to keep pace with the death toll.

Vatican justice minister calls Gaza Strip a 'big concentration camp'

I think the gentleman in the following OP knows more about concentration camps Holocaust survivor speaks out for Gaza. Amazing statement.

[shira]

15. Comparing Israel to Nazis is antisemitic according to US State Dept. n/t

[intaglio]

17. Concentration camps were not just Nazi

I specifically pointed out they were a British invention used against the South Africans (the Boers)

Now would you care to actually address the facts of the matter rather than indulge in name calling ...

[HooptieWagon]

64. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Israel has turned Gaza into a concentration camp, by any definition of the term. Then, with 2 million Gazans imprisoned in an area about the size of Detroit, the IDF opened fire on a civilian population packed in there like sardines... including deliberately targeting shelters housing women and children. You continue to defend these war crimes.

[shira]

65. Excuse me, who here is defending war crimes? I have yet to find….

…any harsh critic of Israel here who has BIG problems with the war crimes Hamas is committing against its people.

Maybe you'll be the first. Surprise me.

What is Hamas guilty of with respect to human shields, firing from or storing weapons in civilian populations, using hospitals, schools, homes, mosques for their terror tunnels….?

Is Hamas guilty of any of the above crimes against humanity?

[enid602]

71. crime

We get it. Two Israeli civilians have died. Haven't you seen the horrific destruction of Palestinian neighborhoods? Doesn't that move you just a tiny bit?

[shira]

77. So u deny Hamas war crimes vs its own people too?

That pretty much makes for a perfect record here.

Hamas is trying to maximize civilian casualties. They're pretty obvious about this. They use women and children as human shields, fire and store rockets and munitions from or within schools, hospitals, homes, and mosques. They're attacking Israel by these means.....

And yet, I can't find any of Israel's accusers here who have big problems with this. What kind of human rights advocates for Palestinians would deny, defend, minimize, or cover for Hamas' war crimes?

[shira]

68. More Israel = Nazi comparisons. Cute.

The State Dept. defines that as antisemitism. You don't seem bothered.

==========

I wonder if you've accused any other nations from the past couple decades of Nazi like crimes.

Any?

None?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. North Korea is a good one for that.

Km jong whatzit really seems to be trying to outdo Hitler in terms of complete monstrosity.

[bravenak]

10. Is this what you mean?

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/concentration-delusion-recognize.html

[shira]

12. Mondoweiss has become extremely popular here lately

In the last month, Mondoweiss has posted a puff-piece sympathetic to David Duke and another one sympathetic to Hamas.

I shouldn't have remind you what the equivalent racist swill would be from your perspective, but this is the shit we're dealing with here.

[bravenak]

16. What about this Shira?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U9Ds4X-9KSO


Why are members of the Knesset saying such racist stuff? Clean hands, Shira, we must have clean hands. I can find the nastiest things that come out of Israel, many said by prominent people. Let's not have a contest on this issue. I always win. Let's just agree that the killing needs to stop now, without justifications for keeping up the bloodshed. Israel is becoming less safe and more isolated as a result of this operation and needs not do this again. No more killing innocents. Send in swat teams.

[shira]

18. We're talking about here...

The racists in Israel would level Gaza in a heartbeat. They're not running the show.

Unlike the US, NATO, and UK with its bombing runs in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Kosovo.....Israel is sacrificing the lives of its boys sending them into the heart of Gaza, underground into Hamas' tunnels, door-to-door into booby-trapped homes, hospitals and mosques in order to prevent civilian casualties.

Don't give me this moral equivalence bullshit.

[bravenak]

19. Shira.

You are still defending the killing of civilians and trying to make me empathize more with geared up soldiers with the best equiptment than the innocent civilians killed by them. Doesn't that strike you as strange? I empathize more with the innocent bystanders blown up and killed. Sorry, that' just how life works.

If an army is dropping bombs on homes and killing hundreds of civilians, most people would booby trap the homes to get back at the guys who just killed their family and friends. I hope the IDF wasn't expecting a warm welcome after killing so many children and civilians.

[shira]

20. Sickening. We're done. I'll leave you with this...

I'm done apologizing for Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113472222

Lastly, I don't believe those who say they empathize with innocents being killed when they accept Hamas methods that try maximizing Palestinian civilian casualties.

Enough with the bullshit. I'm not buying.

[bravenak]

21. It IS sickening to ignore the civilian deaths.

War is sickening and the fighting needs to end now. We need to not support the killing of innocents, ever. I read your piece earlier. Good night, we'll do this again.

[shira]

33. That's what you're doing when you ignore/accept what Hamas is doing….

….to its civilians. Those are war crimes. You know that, right? Hamas is responsible according to International Law. It's why they're being condemned recently for it by the US, EU and UN, for example.

[bravenak]

34. The IDF bears just as much if not more responsibility.

They have been doing some ugly things to the families of Gaza. The blood on Hamas' hands does not erase the blood from the IDF as an organization. Bibi is at fault for his incessant right wingery.

[shira]

36. No, they don't. They're trying their best to minimize casualties while Hamas….

….is doing the opposite, trying to maximize them.

Besides text messaging, leaflets, phone calls, and other warnings Israel has lost 32 of its soldiers in close-quarter fighting in order to MINIMIZE civilian casualties.

==================

If you don't want to deal with reality, there's no point going further.

[bravenak]

38. I have an idea.

They can stop killing children and civilians. I would take their side in a minute if it were Hamas killing hundreds of folks a week. But it's not. It's the Likud Death Squad in action.

[shira]

43. Hamas makes it EXTREMELY difficult for the IDF to not kill innocents….

….while protecting Israelis. You don't seem to get that or you don't care. Which is it?

[HooptieWagon]

74. Targeting children is minimizing civilian casualties?

Wow, just wow. You're not just drinking the kool-aid, you're bathing in it.

[shira]

81. They're not targeting children. Then again....

....you're not interested in facts.

Lemme know when you're really interested in discussing GENUINE war crimes vs. Palestinians.

[enid602]

70. apologies

I feel for you. Apologizing for Israel these days is a bit like Condi Rice having to defend George Bush's actions. Not a job I'd want.

[shira]

107. No apologies. I'm looking for real pro-Palestinians here....

....not phonies who accept Hamas war crimes committed against their own people in this war.

[shira]

22. "Most people would boobytrap homes". No, that's what Hamas does....

Hamas Jihadis endanger & sacrifice Palestinians intentionally in order to maximize the number of deaths...on both sides.

It's a gross war crime no one on a progressive/liberal board should find acceptable. Especially those claiming to be concerned about senseless Palestinian deaths.

Don't preach morals to me.

[bravenak]

23. You are the one who needs to stop preaching morals, Shir.

I mean really!!!


Bombing civilians is a WAR CRIME, but you seem to gloss over war crimes committed by certain people. Leaving a trap for the guy who just killed half of your family is understandable. Much more understandble than shooting misslies at kids on the beach. Now you're Ms.Morals.

I hope somebody from IP notices you preaching morals. Best thing ever.

[shira]

24. You cannot accept Hamas war crimes against its own people....

.... whle claiming you care about Palestinian innocents - and expect to be taken seriously. Hamas is w/o question trying to maximize Palestinian civilian deaths and you find their methods - which are crimes against humanity - acceptable.

Total moral failure.

And you said earlier you're against Hamas.

Now we're really done.

[bravenak]

25. I can admit that Hamas is a terrorst organization.

I will not blame them for the civilians that are killed by the IDF. You are the one who can't admit that it is a war crime to bomb civilians, even if there is a bad guy somewhere in the bunch. Better to use a SWAT team or what ever you can to avoid civilian death. When an army starts killing hundreds of civilians to get to a few bad guys, and bombs indiscriminately resulting in babies heads getting blown off, that's a war crime. You cannot admit it, because of who the culprit is. It took me a few years to admit that we were messing up in Iraq, big time. I think it was when those us soldiers raped that girl and then killed her family to cover it up, that i was finally able to admit that we were wrong. I knew it all along, but i felt like i had to say it out loud.

[shira]

26. Anyone pro-Palestinian would condemn Hamas for what they're doing....

....intentionally to Palestinian civilians. And what they're doing is sacrificing Palestinians, trying to maximize their deaths for vulgar PR purposes. Those who say they care about Palestinian innocents wouldn't attempt to explain it away or find what Hamas is doing acceptable.

As for Israel, they're not simply bombing away but sacrificing their own troops in order to try to MINIMIZE civilian casualties. If they were like other western nations or NATO, they'd only bomb or use drones. But here you are attempting to equate them with the worst of Hamasniks. It's shameful.

[bravenak]

27. We already comdemn Hamas.

But they are not actually killing the civilians. Thats why we have to condemn the killers too. Explaing away war crimes and apoligizing fo them is exhausting. For me it' easy to not support Hamas. I'm an athiest. Easy peasy to not support them.

I also do not support Israel's Likud, rightwing death party. I believe they want war and dead palestinians more than Hamas does. They don't believe in Palestine's right to exist. Very racist political party.


Never become the bad guy. Never kill more civilians than the terrorist. Israel is Michael Douglass in 'Falling Down' right about now. It's sad. I hope the Israeli left gets a boost and takes control. Israel doesn't deserve Netanyahu-Cheney.

[shira]

28. So if it's easy peasy to not support Hamas, then why the reluctance….

…to condemn the war crimes Hamas is committing against Palestinian civilians? Do you feel you're betraying the Palestinian cause if you hold Hamas responsible for their crimes against humanity - against the very Palestinians you say you support?

[bravenak]

29. I already condemn Hamas.

So do most people.

[shira]

31. Not for its war crimes against its own people. Why not?

You find that Hamas using its people as shields, booby-trapping and firing rockets or storing missiles in homes, mosques, schools, and hospitals…...acceptable?

[bravenak]

32. I am no longer believing that's the direct cause for the high number of deaths.

Common sense dictates that we not kill a crowd to get a gunman.

[shira]

35. Are you denying these gross war crimes by Hamas? n/t

[bravenak]

37. No.

Just denying they are responsibly for the actions Israel decides to take in response. I see Palestine as a battered wife, with no help from the community.

I will not help assuage BIBI's guilt for the deaths of 80% civilians in this operation. Both parties, Likud and Hamas are now terrorists in my eyes. Israel has been brought low by the right wing settler driven Knesset.

[shira]

39. So u don't deny, but Hamas isn't responsible either. So you accept what they do...

And you find that the moral thing to do. And you're not upset @ Hamas (won't condemn or oppose them) for trying to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties?

I don't understand how anyone pro-Palestinian can accept what Hamas is doing to them.

[bravenak]

40. I am upset that Israel is falling for the okey doke.

Hamas cannot FORCE Israel to do squat. Israel is independent of Hamas' authority. I do not believe anything coming out of Netanyahu's mouth. I blame Hamas for the actions of Hamas, and i blame Israel for IDF actions.

[shira]

41. You find what Hamas is doing to Palestinians acceptable. That's shameful.

And yes, Israel is being forced to respond to Hamas' terror attacks. Israeli civilians cannot be expected to just lie back, take it, and die. Or be forced into bomb shelters several times a day……forever.

Some advocate for human rights you turned out to be.

[bravenak]

42. You have to stop putting words in peoples mouth.

I call it strawmanning.

[shira]

45. I only write that b/c you haven't yet condemned what they do...

In fact, you don't hold Hamas accountable for civilian deaths at all - despite what they're doing.

That's quite the anti-Palestinian, anti-human rights position to take.

[bravenak]

46. You are using the telegenically dead trope.

It did not work for Bibi because it's stupid.

[shira]

47. The US, EU, and UN all condemn Hamas for their war crimes against Palestinian civilians

You want so badly to make Israel look like a monster that you are perfectly willing to overlook or accept Hamas' crimes against humanity committed against their own people.

Disgraceful.

[bravenak]

49. Israel is doing the hard work for me.

All i have to do is look at the dead children and read their names. You know two sisters, kids, that Israel killed had a middle name similar to mine.


I accept that Hamas is a terrorist organization. If Israel wants to be more destructive than Hamas and kill many more civilians than a terrorist org, they should not get a pat on the back from me. Hamas is expected to behave like Israel is behaving.

[shira]

50. You've confirmed this isn't about human rights….it's about bashing Israel

It's anti-Palestinian to cover for the hideous war crimes they're deliberately committing against Palestinian civilians.

[bravenak]

52. So, if Israel commits war crimes, i have to say nothing.

Because I have to blame Hamas for everything. Got it. Not going to do it. It's about facing reality. You can not shoot into a crowd of innocents and be called the good guy.

[shira]

54. You can legitimately criticize Israel w/o condoning Hamas' war crimes….

Why not try it?

[bravenak]

55. I am not condoning anything.

I do not believe the words coming out of Bibi Netanyahu's mouth. He is a liar and a bad man. You do not kill civilians to get to bad guys. Period. Unless you want to become the bad guy. I can see hy Israel is losing the public relations war. You are being lied to by a right wing government.

[shira]

57. Now you're back to denial. Denying Hamas' war crimes….

…that the EU and UN just recently condemned. Here's one of the 1st posts from a long thread full of evidence of Hamas' sick war crimes they commit against their own people:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113471416#post24

If it was just Bibi's bullshit, that'd be easy to demolish.

[bravenak]

59. Why give terrorists the dead bodies they want?

Only a murderer would murder innocents to get to a guy ith a missile launcher. The lines have blurred. The IDF gives Hamas all the telegenically dead bodies they want.

[shira]

60. If u care about civilians, u cannot be "cool" w/ what Hamas is doing 2 them. n/t

[bravenak]

62. If you care about civilians, YOU cannot be 'cool' with what Israel is doing to them.

[shira]

89. I'm aware of Israel's past record in wars....

And I know they try their best to minimize civilian casualties. The record proves it as they are more careful than any other nation at war, including all Western democracies. I wish they killed 0 innocents and I hope they improve upon their record. I realize they have no choice but to defend and so long as they try to minimize civilian casualties, I support them fully.

OTOH, you have a credibility issue when you say you support Palestinians while denying or minimizing what Hamas is doing to them.

I don't claim to be pro-Palestinian, but you do. So why not act like you're pro-Palestinian and hold Hamas accountable?

[bravenak]

90. Let's not talk about creditability issues.

The very fact that you wrote that made me laugh so hard, my sides hurt. The tears,from my eyes.... Laughing so hard......

That's was a good one Shira, brava!


I can only hold Hamas accountable for what THEY do, not what Bibi says they 'forced' him to do.

[shira]

91. So if you hold Hamas accountable for what they do....

...then what do you condemn Hamas for?

Be specific. What are they responsible for?

[bravenak]

92. Shooting rockets indiscriminately.

And killing 2 civilians. It's not like they have a military base or somewhere to fire missiles from. They seem to be trying to limit how many civilians they kill.

[shira]

93. Point proven. You won't condemn their war crimes vs Palestinian civilians....

And to top it off, you joke about them trying to limit the # of civilians they kill.

Wow.

[bravenak]

94. I usually worry about civilian deaths the most.

It's the biggest tragedy. Life cut short by missiles and bombs.

[shira]

102. Really? 1800 Palestinian civilians dead & starved in Syria.

Sorry, those civilians don't count b/c Israel cannot be blamed. Same goes for Hamas and what they do to Palestinians. War crimes by ANY definition. You can't be bothered. You'd fit in well at the UNHRC b/c they don't have a problem with any of that either.

Civilians. Who gives a crap unless Israel....

Yeah, I get it. And I don't buy what you're selling.

[Jefferson23]

96. It's noticed....sad to say the least. n/t

[bravenak]

97. And quite a bit weird.nt

[Jefferson23]

99. Yes, and I can't make any sense of it. n/t

[bravenak]

100. Don't try. It hurts pretty bad.

Cirque du solei couldn't keep up with it. To much spinning.

[shira]

103. You denied these war crimes recently by Hamas against Palestinians....

Remember, I had to show you B'tselem condemning them from 2009?

You won't condemn these crimes against humanity now, and yet you say your heart breaks for Palestinian civilians.

Prove it.

[Jefferson23]

117. No, what you posted was from two separate reports and yes, B'tselem calls them out

when they have the documentation. I accepted I was wrong on the call, yes..not wrong
about the separate instances that you tried to combine. You do not seem to accept
that when they say they don't have the documentation, you accuse B'Tselem of giving
Hamas a pass. Human rights groups can't satisfy you..no matter what they do.

[shira]

120. So in yr opinion, is Hamas NOW guilty of grave war crime violations....

....against Palestinians, due to their efforts to maximize civilian casualties?

Yes or No?

[Jefferson23]

122. I don't rely on claims made by the IDF nor Hamas.

Where corroborated UN /human rights groups reports lead, that is what I generally accept.

I do not support Hamas, Abbas, nor Netanyahu..they are horrible leaders and do
not conduct themselves in the best interest of their people.

[shira]

123. So b/c Human Rights groups haven't yet condemned Hamas....

...for storing rockets in 2 UN buildings that are used to shelter civilians, it's like it never happened in your opinion - correct?

That's pretty fcuked up.

[Jefferson23]

124. You can read my response again..if you like. I believe I was clear who I support..none of them. n/t

[shira]

126. So unless you see Human Rights groups condemn Hamas.....

...it's as if they never stored rockets in 2 UN school buildings being utilized to shelter Palestinians.

I read your response.

I doubt you'd condemn that act now, since HRW and Amnesty are a bit slow condemning it.

[enid602]

69. siege

They've been living under siege and embargo for seven years. What animals are capable of inflicting such pain?

[azurnoir]

44. alternative title- "The Naked Archaeologist channels Bibi-Telegenically"

[shira]

48. So how about you? You still deny Hamas war crimes vs its own people?

Or will you accept, explain away, or minimize what they're doing in order to portray Israel in the worst possible light?

[azurnoir]

51. No need for me to portray Israel in "the worst possible light"

and by "explain away" do you mean pointing out BS spin?

[shira]

53. So that's denial, right? You've never once recognized Hamas' war crimes….

….against their own people. The EU and UN finally condemned Hamas for this. B'tselem did years ago. Why not you?

[azurnoir]

56. No denial needed and yes the EU's Parliment did issue this statement

"The EU calls on Hamas to immediately put an end to these acts and renounce violence."

"All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm. The EU strongly condemns calls on the civilian population to provide themselves as human shields."

The EU also said that it is "particularly appalled by the human cost of the Israeli military operation in Shuja’iyya, and is deeply concerned at the rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation."

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/middle-east/37895-140722-world-pushes-for-truce

[shira]

58. So you condemn it then? Why is this like pulling teeth?

You seem very reluctant calling Hamas out for the crimes against humanity they're committing against the Palestinians you purport to care about.

[azurnoir]

61. are you calling I support Hamas? no dithering yes or no n/t

[shira]

63. You're still not answering. I have yet to see you ever….

…call Hamas out for what they're OBVIOUSLY doing to Palestinian civilians during war time. Maybe I missed it. Then again, maybe I can find about 20 of your posts denying it happens at all.

Help me understand your position here. In very clear terms please.

[azurnoir]

66. That's dithering yes or no n/t

[shira]

67. Still not answering. It's like pulling teeth getting Palestine's defenders…..

…..to acknowledge and condemn Hamas' vile war crimes.

[azurnoir]

72. still dithering however there is no simple answer like "they hate us for our freedoms"

see the problem is that while Hamas is indeed vile their calls for people to stay can not account for the civilian death toll as outlined here

What used to be a three-storey house had been turned into debris sunk into a deep crater with twisted steel rods jutting out. Twenty-six people were killed in the mostly deadly air-strike so far in this bloody conflict. Twenty-four of them were from one family, the Abu Jama

Around the same time that attack was taking place on Sunday evening, Benjamin Netanyahu was charging Hamas on TV with using “human shields” to gather “telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause”. It has long been the Israeli case that the militants cynically and deliberately carry out attacks and store weapons in residential areas and have also stopped people living there from evacuating homes when fighting breaks out.

There have been instances in the 13 days of the current war when the Israelis have sought to provide evidence proving their case. After warplanes targeted the al-Farouq mosque, near the Nuseirat refugee camp, for instance, the military issued aerial photographs which, it stated, showed that the building was being used to store rockets. We have also had the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, announcing that it had discovered 20 rockets hidden in one of its disuse schools in a “flagrant violation” of international law. And rockets are seen to be regularly fired from stretches of open ground close to homes.

Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields. The Bani Sobeila area, near Khan Younis, where the Abu Jamaa deaths took place received leaflets dropped from the air last week warning them to leave.

But almost all stayed. One reason for that was many of the houses belonged to the Abu Jamaa clan who felt there was safety in staying together. Another reason was given by a neighbour, Abdullah al-Daweish: “Where do we go to? Some people moved from the outer edge of Khan Younis to Khan Younis centre after Israelis told them to, then the centre got bombed. People have moved from this area to Gaza City, and Gaza City has been bombed. It’s not Hamas who is ordering us in this, it’s the Israelis.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

[shira]

80. It'd be nice to find some real pro-Palestinians here.

Lemme know when you find one.

[azurnoir]

87. I would say the same about Pro-Israel but there already is a

truly ProIsrael person here and seeing as how it's actually their country......

[azurnoir]

112. "Then again, maybe I can find about 20 of your posts denying it happens at all". go for it shira

really really go for it and while we're at it I'll find yours denying any and all Israeli responsibility in civilain deaths lets race okay?

[shira]

114. Truly in awe of yr heartfelt support of Palestinians....

Oops, well wait, not the Palestinians whose rights Hamas is violating w/ their war crimes.

[deathrind]

73. Hmmm...

"When she repeatedly used the term “occupied territories” to refer to parts of the ancient land of Israel, Bennett was ready. He pulled out a 2000-year-old coin that says “Zion” on it. He held it to the camera and asked something like, “I’m a Jew. How can I be ‘occupying’ Zion? How can I occupy my own land?” His point was “I’m not an occupier, I’m indigenous”

............. this is the real problem. People fighting over rocks and dirt.

[TubbersUK]

75. Risible Article

Crimes committed by Hamas, which I roundly condemn by the way, cannot and do not absolve Israel of its legal and moral responsibilities vis a vis Palestinian civilians.

Sadly, Israel has failed to meet these responsibilities and looks for every opportunity to lay the blame elsewhere.

As for the presence of the media, thank goodness it's there to bear witness to Operation Defensive Edge.

[shira]

76. War crimes by Hamas vs. Palestinains are either denied or defended here.

Why would supposedly pro-Palestinian advocates who complain about human rights abuses do that?

[TubbersUK]

78. Why ask me? Question for you though:

Why would someone as finely tuned as you to the transgressions of Hamas against Palestinian civilians make it your life's work to deny and defend Israeli crimes and abuses against the very same people?

[shira]

79. Do you really want to discuss war crimes and abuses against Palestinians?

I've found here that Israel's most hostile accusers couldn't give 2 shits about Palestinian victims of atrocities unless they can bash and demonize the Jewish state with mostly made up bullshit.

If you really want a discussion, lemme know.

[TubbersUK]

98. My perception is quite different

I see many, many posters who are sincerely alarmed by Israel's treatment of Gaza and the plight of ordinary Palestinians.

I guess that some , like me, who have always wished Israel well, are also disappointed and saddened by the direction in which she appears to be heading. I see no real will on Israel's part to meet any substantive Palestinian aspirations (short or long term) and that to me is indefensible. I hope I'm wrong but the wind certainly seems to be blowing in that direction.

[shira]

101. You're missing how they accept Hamas war crimes.....

....against Palestinian civilians. This doesn't bother them b/c they couldn't give 2 shits about Palestinians unless they get to bash Israel. 1800 dead and starved Palestinians in Syria means nothing to them.

For reals.

Much like Syria and the > 170,000 dead there. Total silence. If Syria picks a fight with Israel, you can bet they'll begin to "discover" atrocities in Syria that they never noticed before.

This isn't about human rights. It's certainly not about Palestinians. It's about bashing Israel.

[TubbersUK]

111. Like I said I don't accept your premise

I don't see wall to wall Israel bashing like you do, I see well-founded concern for the plight of Gaza civilians and, arising from that, valid criticism of Israel and the IDF.

Neither do I see many posters denying the accountability of Hamas.


You didn't answer my earlier question by the way.

[shira]

113. Then pay better attention. n/t

[TubbersUK]

125. Still no answer to my question #78 then - never mind. Bye. n/t

[shira]

127. The answer to your question...

....is that unless you have evidence of Israeli intent to commit war crimes, you're pissing in the wind.

What we do know as fact is:

1. Israel tries more than any other nation to safeguard civilians by dropping leaflets, phoning them, text messages, etc. No other nation on the planet does that, at the expense of giving the enemy time to foil the attack.

2. Israel's record speaks for itself. It's civilian to combatant ratio in previous wars is around 1:1, which is much better than the records of the USA, UK, France, and NATO. At best they're 3:1 or 4:1. So all evidence points the opposite direction, that they're NOT committing war crimes against civilians.

======================

Fact is, Hamas is deliberately committing war crimes against its own people. It's undeniable. And yet folks who claim to care about Palestinians couldn't give 2 shits about this b/c all they're interested in is bashing the Jewish state.

[shira]

116. Israeli Amb. Ron Dermer OWNS CNN's Coverage of Conflict

&feature=youtu.be

[shira]

133. Journalist Describes Interrogation at Hamas HQ Next to Emergency Room at Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital

This is the real scandal in Gaza with its compliant media and enablers of Hamas. Pallywood controls what's coming out of Gaza.

Journalist Describes Interrogation at Hamas HQ Next to Emergency Room at Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital

Radjaa Abu Dagga, Gaza correspondent for France’s Libération, told the newspaper‘s readers on Tuesday how Hamas refused his requests to leave Gaza and how he was interrogated by Hamas members from their headquarters inside Gaza’s Al-Shifa hospital, a violation of international rules of war.

Blogger Elder of Ziyon published a translation of his harrowing account on Thursday.

Correspondent Radjaa Abu Dagga for years divided his time between Paris, where his wife and son live, and Gaza, where his parents live and where he works. On 18 June, when he wanted to cross the Rafah border, an officer banned his way and took his passport like all Palestinians trying to cross into Egypt that day.

After four blocked attempts to leave Gaza without explanation over weeks, the Palestinian journalist was summoned by the security services of Hamas on Sunday. ‘I received a call from a private number. They summoned me to Al-Shifa Hospital in the Gaza City center,’ explains Radjaa. He carried with him his two phones, his press card and a small camera.

A few meters from the emergency room where the injured from bombings are constantly flowing, in the outpatient department, he was received in ‘a small section of the hospital used as administration’ by a band of young fighters. They were all well dressed, which surprised Radjaa, ‘in civilian clothing with a gun under one’s shirt and some had walkie-talkies.’ He was ordered to empty his pockets, removing his shoes and his belt then was taken to a hospital room ‘which served that day as the command office of three people.’

A man begins his interrogation: ‘Who are you? Who do you call? What are you doing?’ ‘I was very surprised by the procedure,’ admits Radjaa, who showed him his press card in response. Questions came. They asked if he speaks Hebrew, he has relations with Ramallah. Young Hamas supporters insistently ask the question: ‘Are you a correspondent for Israel?’ Radjaa repeated that he only works for French media and a chain of Algerian radio.

It was then that the three men delivered this message: ‘This is yours to choose. We are an executive administration. We will carry the message of Qassams. You have to stay at home and give us your papers.’ Stunned to be covered by the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, Radjaa tried to defend himself and especially to understand why such a decision was taken against him. In vain. ‘It is impossible to communicate with these people,’ laments the journalist.

He is not the first to undergo this kind of pressure and combatants in front of him did not hide. ‘They are enraged against the presidency and accused me of collaborating with Mahmoud Abbas,’ he says. Reporters Without Borders confirms that this is not an isolated case. The organization has indeed been alerted by the threats of Hamas against Palestinian and foreign journalists for their professional activities.

Elder of Ziyon said: “There are many journalists that have been hanging around Al Shifa hospital. Very few have mentioned that the terrorist wing of Hamas is even present, let alone set up next to the emergency room. Is it because they are pro-Hamas? Is it Stockholm syndrome? Or is their hate of Israel so deep that anything that supports the IDF’s assertions of Hamas war crimes is considered off limits?”

“But this is the fundamental story of the conflict: Hamas is using the entire population as human shields for their terror, and they deliberately choose hospitals to ensure that either they are not targeted or that any Israeli actions will look barbaric.The sad thing is, judging from many of the reports we have seen, most journalists are complicit in this.”

The Wall Street Journal correspondent Nick Casey posted a photograph to Twitter of Hamas spokesman Mushir Al Masri being interviewed on camera, in front of backdrop showing a destroyed house, but inside of Al Shifa hospital, where Hamas has created an administrative headquarters. The photo has since been removed.

There have been reports of many journalists taking down posts from social media to avoid pressure from the Hamas spokesmen or endure the hateful responses by supporters of Gaza’s war against Israel. The Financial Times’s Jerusalem correspondent John Reed was targeted on Wednesday for noting on Twitter that Hamas was firing from a rocket launch site adjacent to Al Shifa, even as the wounded were being brought in for treatment. Reed, a veteran reporter for the FT in Poland and South Africa, let his post stand.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/french-journalist-describes-interrogation-at-hamas-headquarters-next-to-emergency-room-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital/