What is really going on in Gaza?

[Shemp Howard]

I've been following the latest Israeli incursion into Gaza. And I've tried to be objective, ignoring all the propaganda and disinformation.

So here's my question to the DU community. Why all the horrific civilian casualties? As I see it, it is one (or perhaps a combination) of the six possibilities below. Note that I am not focusing on the reasons for the incursion, but on the reasons for the civilian casualties.

How do you see it, and, more importantly, why?

1. Israel is trying to target military targets only, and the civilian casualties are just an unfortunate side effect of that. (No one's fault.)

2. Israel is trying to target military targets only, and the civilian casualties are mainly due to where Hamas placed its weapons. (Hamas at fault.)

3. Israel is trying to target military targets only, and the civilian casualties are mainly due to Hamas rockets that have fallen short. (Hamas at fault.)

4. Israel is trying to target military targets only, but without any regard to civilian casualties. (Israel at fault.)

5. Israel is deliberately trying to kill Gaza's civilians, to punish them for supporting Hamas. (Israel at fault.)

6. Israel is deliberately trying to kill Gaza's civilians, as a type of ethnic cleansing. (Israel at fault.)

[Scootaloo]

1. 7. Israel is lashing blindly and is simply indifferent to what it does

[bemildred]

5. 8. Israel is lashing blindly in hopes of not looking "weak", and

9. Israel is lashing blindly in hopes of gaining some kind of victory with which to justify the war to Israelis.

[enid602]

10. puzzled

I was puzzled when it was splashed all over our media this week that Netanyahu has an 85% approval rating. That seems a tad high when you consider that Israel is majority Palestinian.

[Scootaloo]

12. Say what?

israel has an arab population of ~21% (a little higher if you count Arab Jews, which most do not). That 21% is divided among Palestinians, Druze, and Bedouin communities. They're not a majority in israel.

[enid602]

13. Gaza

There are 1.8 million Palestinians in Gaza alone. Guess they don't count.

[Scootaloo]

14. Well... they're not Israelis, they're Palestinians.

[enid602]

15. Israel

They live in Israel. All citizens should have rights.

[Scootaloo]

16. I think you're missing the point

The 85% number is from a poll of Jewish Israelis. The people of gaza are neither, and so would not have been included in the polling.

[Igel]

22. No, they don't live in Israel.

Which is part of the problem.

Israel has borders, even if others don't like to formally acknowledge them. The West Bank and Gaza aren't inside them. As an exception, settlers are considered Israeli citizens even if they're in those territories.

Druse and Arabs are still Israeli if they're citizens of Israel.


Gaza had its own elections. Hamas won. Hamas isn't represented in the Knesset. The West Bank also had its own elections. Now, granted they have the same kind of status the US Congress and president would have in 2024 if we held no more elections between now and then. There's not one politician among them, as far as I remember, that is legitimately in that office (even if they were originally elected to the office--sort of like Obama would be "president" in a decade if we just didn't bother with elections in 2016 or 2020).

Even if you consider them occupied territories, think about it. Allied occupation of Germany lasted officially until 1955. Germans didn't enjoy full rights under US law until then and weren't allowed to freely travel back and forth to the US. West Germans weren't allowed to vote in US elections and I'd venture to bet weren't included when it came to coming up with the domestic poll numbers for Truman and Eisenhower. They were granted more and more autonomy from '47 until '55, but it wasn't complete until '55. And that was with very limited post-war partisan activity by Germans and few calls to defeat or not recognize the US, France, or Britain's legitimacy even though Germany lost significant amounts of land to the east (granted to Poland, as Polish territory became Soviet) and in the West (to France), with the expulsion of Germans from Poland, the Czech lands, and other countries that led to a refugee population larger than the current Palestinian refugee/diaspora population.

[enid602]

30. US

I don't think West Germany was ever blockaded or sieged, though in the post-WWII era. I think the Allies recognized early on that an economic renaissance in West Germany would be beneficial to the West. A dramatic change from their post-WWI treatment of Germany. Remember, the Treaty of Versailles made for the rise of extremism and Nazism in the '30's. Yes, as a member of the Allies, the US actively administered an 'occupied territory,' but did so in a humane way that had the effect of stabilizing the region.

[sabbat hunter]

26. Gaza

is not part of Israel.

[Israeli]

17. put not thy faith in polls ....

I dont believe them either .

25% of Israelis are not Jewish enid602.....and out of the 75% that are ..not all follow Bibi blindly .

You need to check out some maps ....there is Israel Proper ...then there is the Wild West Bank ....and then there is Gaza .

Most Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza ......those that live in Israel proper are termed Israeli Arabs which are a mixture of Muslim , Christian and secular also Druze, and Bedouin .

[bemildred]

24. I pay very little attention to polls, anybody's polls, but especially political polls.

The other posters have covered the demographic situation, about as well as one can.

[azurnoir]

19. I'll take door #8 thanks

with a side of Bart Simpson's paradox when it comes to Bibi "damned if he does damned if he doesn't"

[bemildred]

23. Yah.

[yeoman6987]

29. I think it is number 2

[philip.chinery]

2. sigh

Considering they admitted to intentionally destroying schools with children in them, I don't see how anyone can't agree that they're doing it on purpose to commit genocide.

[Big Blue Marble]

3. Do you have a link to an Israeli Official actually admitting to the intentionality of targeting the

the schools?

[Warpy]

4. I imagine it's a combination of 4 and 5

While it looks like 6 from time to time, that's probably not the case or they'd have targeted the infrastructure on the first day and the schools on the second and then moved in a grid pattern, obliterating one whole neighborhood after another with no running orders to the people who live there.

It looks like 4 is the official policy and 5 is happening because of the level of hatred there.

[leftynyc]

31. Bullshit

Where has Israel admitted to intentionally blowing up a school with children inside?

[HeiressofBickworth]

6. And another possible answer:

That Israel has selected a strip of real estate to clear and if anyone is in that area, too bad.

The latest statistic I've read is that Israel is reducing Gaza by 40% in clearing the land adjacent to the border.

[bemildred]

7. Yes, that too, wanted to move them out so they could go after the tunnels.

Not the brightest idea, but I can understand their motivation.

[HeiressofBickworth]

9. I see it as just another land-grab.

Even if all the tunnels are destroyed, no Palestinian will be allowed back on that 40% of land. The excuse will be that IDF is preventing additional tunnels from being constructed. No, it's just another land-grab.

[bemildred]

27. If they try to hang onto it, I will believe you.

Right now, I don't think so. I think the tunnels really did freak them out.

[Israeli]

8. here ...

Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent









Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

[HeiressofBickworth]

11. Thank you for posting the map.

It all becomes clear when visually presented. One question, where is the off-shore oil in relation to the Gaza coast? Since reading about it, I have suspected that access to oil is also a factor.

[Israeli]

20. I doubt its a land grab ...

right now its a buffer zone .

but

IMHO this gov of ours is capable of anything . . take into consideration that it is the most Right wing gov in our history .

Its mainly gas fields


I've read about the theory that its also a factor ...

see : http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/blogs/124-mazin-qumsiyeh/8351-humanise-palestine

But maybe this is the real reason: Armed robbery in Gaza: Israel, US, UK carve up the spoils of Palestine's stolen gas.

Its a theory ....not fact ...not yet anyhow .

[potone]

33. Israeli, I have a question for you.

And by the way, it is good to have a person on this site who knows the situation and geography at first hand. My question is this: the reports I have read state that the Israeli soldier that Hamas captured was in Rafah, clearing a tunnel. From the map, it appears to me that the tunnel would have been going into Egypt, not Israel. I thought that Netanyahu was reserving the right to continue during the ceasefire to demolish tunnels that were going into Israel. So why were the soldiers clearing tunnels in Rafah? Have I got this wrong?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

[bemildred]

28. Israel doesn't need to steal Arab hydrocarbons.

It's thinking of exporting 40% its own, or something like that.
And the Palestinian section, as I understand it, has not that much to begin with.

[intaglio]

18. Mixture of 4 and 5

With a side order of electoral game-playing by Bibi and Likud together with a soupçon of paranoia and a pinch of let's conduct a live fire exercise.

[oberliner]

21. Depends who you want to believe

Here's what the Israeli side will say:

1. We are going out of our way to prevent civilian casualties. Hamas launches rockets and hides weapons in civilian areas so regrettably when we return fire or try to destroy those munitions, innocent people are sometimes killed.

2. Some of the casualties being described as civilians are actually Hamas operatives/militants/terrorists who are being falsely labeled as civilians by Hamas for public relations purposes

3. Often Hamas rockets fall short of Israel, and land in Gaza, causing casualties. Sometimes when Israeli forces destroy a munitions facility, there are secondary explosions from those weapons causing civilian casualties. Hamas covers this up.

Those are the big three ways the Israeli side explains those results. Mostly the first one.

On the other side, you will hear that Israel is shelling Gaza indiscriminately, slaughtering men, women, and children who have no place to hide to escape the onslaught.

My personal view is that Israel is trying to hit legitimate targets which are often found in civilian areas, and they don't especially trouble themselves with making sure that civilians aren't killed in the process of achieving their objectives (basically a version of your number 4 with a little bit of number 2).

[Igel]

25. 1-4.

Why pick just one? They're not mutually exclusive.

But for (1) I'd also add that errant munitions are a fact of life, as is poor intelligence and trigger-happy soldiers.

For 5 and the higher numbers proposed, most of the "evidence" is scant and largely built on a firm foundation of ill-will and distrust.

[Calista241]

32. The israeli's may be assholes, but Hamas is evil.

Combination of 1, 2 and 5. Though I'm sure 3 happens from time to time.