Abbas rejects Egyptian offer to settle refugees in Sinai

[Calista241]

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has rejected an Egyptian proposal to resettle Palestinian refugees in a large tract of land in the Sinai Peninsula to be annexed to the Gaza Strip.

Speaking to a gathering of his Fatah party in Ramallah Sunday, Abbas said that an unnamed senior Egyptian official recently approached him and suggested settling Palestinians in an area 1,600 square kilometers (618 square miles) large adjacent to Gaza, reviving an idea originally proposed by former Israeli national security adviser Giora Eiland.

“They [the Egyptians] are prepared to receive all the refugees, [saying] ‘let’s end the refugee story’,” Abbas was quoted by Ma’an news agency as saying.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-rejects-egyptian-offer-to-settle-refugees-in-sinai/

[DetlefK]

1. Problem: That would condone the land-theft of Israel.

"Who cares when Israel destroys palestinian villages in the Westbank and sets up illegal settlements? The Palestinians have more than enough place in Sinai!"

The racism of Nazi Germany was not suddenly okay when the Jews emigrated and started building new lives somewhere else.
The land-theft and racism of Israel will not be okay, just because the Palestinians found a new place to live.

[Calista241]

2. So basically the Palestinian people should suffer in refugee camps

like they have for the last 60 years. Rather than for their government to accept an alternative solution?

At some point, you have to do what's best for your people.

[BillZBubb]

4. What's best for the Palestinian people is not to give in to Israeli ethinic cleansing.

I'll bet the Palestinian people agree with me and not Israeli apologists.

[Calista241]

5. It's not ethnic cleansing if they annex land from Egypt and move their people from

camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. Sounds like a rational decision making and statesmanship to me. Especially if it comes with various international commitments and security guarantees.

[Shaktimaan]

50. Really?

Why is that best for the palestinian refugees?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. No, Israel should stop being allowed to

take Palestinians land. This would only create more of an incentive for Israel to push out the remaining Palestinians.

It's not a solution.

[Calista241]

14. Naturally, there would have to be security guarantees on both sides.

Perhaps a peacekeeping force. I fail to see the problem.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. Yes, I see your failure as well.

[Shaktimaan]

43. Actually it is a solution.

For the palestinian refugee problem. And it's a good one too. How else do you purport to solve their dilemma?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. Is that what you would consider Israel's final solution?

Deportation of a hated people to a foreign place?

Cause that's been done to death. Didn't work out too well.

[Shaktimaan]

47. Final solution?

Nice one. Actually this isn't a solution to any of Israel's problems. It's a solution for the refugees' problem. You know... The ones living in refugee camps around the Middle East? Why would Israel deport anyone?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

48. "Actually this isn't a solution to any of Israel's problems."

Now that's a lie cut from whole cloth.

[Shaktimaan]

49. Really?

How exactly is the refugee issue a problem for Israel?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. Please stop feigning ignorance. I'm embarrassed for you for trying.

[Shaktimaan]

56. You don't seem embarrassed.

You seem uninformed. You're happy to spend energy posting insults. Answering questions seems beyond you though.

[Israeli]

65. :).....

ref : " Answering questions seems beyond you though. "

[Shaktimaan]

51. Of course.

This has nothing to do with the settlement issue. Nor has Israel been pushing out the remaining Palestinians.

Regardless, nothing you mentioned would do anything to rectify the refugee situation. Every settlement could be closed tomorrow and the refugees would still be living in camps in surrounding states. You believe they should continue to suffer because you're concerned about how a solution might negatively incentivize Israel?

[shira]

99. That's exactly it. That's the anti-Zionist movement in a nutshell...

Unless refugees are allowed to demographically turn Israel into a majority Arab state, they should remain in refugee camps for at least 7 more decades. As long as it takes....

No other solution is acceptable.

[hack89]

3. The refugees have to go somewhere

there will never be full right of return of the descendants of the original refugees.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Never is a long time.

Just ask South Afrika.

[hack89]

9. Israel is not going to commit national suicide

as much as you would like it. Partial RoR with reparations is the more likely solution. There is no way short of war to impose full RoR on Israel and there is no one strong enough to do that.

[Scootaloo]

10. Israel has already committed national suicide

Zionism could be equated to autoerotic asphyxiation in this case - sure you're killing brain cells, but look how hard your cock is!

[Calista241]

11. Israel is doomed! DOOMED!!

I had to lol at National suicide. Israel has a vibrant economy, a strong military, and a committed citizenry. Do they have issues internally, sure, what country doesn't?

The fact that some have an issue with their relationship with the Palestinians does not mean they're doomed to fail as a country.

[Scootaloo]

12. I notice you didn't give your "lol" to hack89, who first brought up the phrase

He believes - and many other Zionists beside him seem to agree - that a flux in Israel's demographics will "destroy Israel." That adding more Arabs will be the utter and total ruination of the state - despite its "vibrant economy, strong military, and committed citizenry."

What's worse is that it's not just a bunch of ignorant race-supremacist yahoos on the internet making this claim. It's actually also the position of the state of Israel itself. Then a state's own government holds so little faith in its own stability that it believes demographic change would knock the whole thing over, then I, as an observer, have to conclude that the state just isn't stable or survivable. at least, not as presently understood. Rather it's so pathetically fragile as to already be dead, and not know it yet.

The root of this ludicrous idea is of course, racial supremacism. The notion that more of "those people" would completely wreck "our society" is no less racist coming from a Jewish Israeli than from an Arizona redneck or a SA National Party apparatchik. A nation founded on these notions, and Israel currently is, is of course inhernetly unstable, fragile, and pretty much doomed from the outset. Has the choices of either adapting - throwing out the mildew-infested ideology that it uses as a foundation - or it can cling to that foundation, call over when it crumbles, and be replaced.

Either way, Israel - as we know it - has already omitted suicide, due to its crushing embrace of racial supremacism.

[Calista241]

13. So basically, you think that because Israel is a Jewish state

That they've doomed themselves to collapse.

[Scootaloo]

15. That holds no resemblance to anything I said

But you're almost in the neighborhood - I think any nation that defines itself by race is doomed to failure. It will inevitably reach a point where it has to abandon its race ideology and accept the reality that exists, or it can cling to the racist ideology it holds, and fall over, to be replaced by something else.

This is a reality many other nations have already faced. Some have overcome, others have toppled. There are others who will haveto face the issue as well besides Israel - Lebanon is a good example, it's eventually either going to have to reform its power-by-ethnic-group government, or it's going to implode.

I feel that israel has chosen to "go down with the ship" in this case. It didn't have to, and it can still be reversed. But it's not likely to happen.

[King_David]

20. "Racial supremism " what race ?

[Scootaloo]

21. Jews, Dave. Israel is a racial supremacist state that places Jews as superior to all others.

And spare me the semantic arguments over whether or not "Jew" counts as a race; for the intent of the term, it certainly does, as would "Serb' or "Hutu" or any other ethnic grouping.

But I see you're trying to argue that Israel is racially egalitarian. Why then, would the addition of Palestinian arabs "destroy the state" as is so often isnsited by the likes of hack of Calista or, well, yourself? It's one or the other, either Israel is a robust state that can weather demographic changes easily, or it's a weak and frail state whos reliance on racist definitions and ideology means demographic change is fatal.

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't sing the praises of how diverse and durable Israel is while also arguing that returning Palestinians to their homes would bring doom of a biblical scale.

[King_David]

22. Spare you the argument cos it doesn't fit your narrative ?

Ha ha ha ha

[Scootaloo]

23. If I said "ethnic supremacism," what about the statement would change? Nothing, it's semantic.

Now, care to address the topic?

[King_David]

26. Bye

I won't argue "Jewish Supremism", on this website or on the website the term was invented , either.

CYa

[Scootaloo]

28. No, you just embrace and support it

Go have fun with that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

42. Yes, we understand. You would lose the argument if you tried.

It's much easier to run for cover than actually stand for racist, supremacist Israel.

[Shaktimaan]

57. Nope. Same statement essentially.

Both are false, of course. But they are basically identical.

[Scootaloo]

62. "because Shaktimaan says so" isn't a valid counter argument

especially given that you can't even keep your story straight about your own posts.

[King_David]

35. "Israel is a racial supremacist state "

That's verbatim what you wrote.

Google that and see what websites come up.

Where did you get the lingo from?

[Scootaloo]

63. A fundamental understanding of the English language

Wherein if I want to convey that a state adheres to an ideology of one order - in particular race / ethnicity - of people being superior over others, i call it a "Racial supremacist state."

And yup, I'm aware your favorite other David pops up on a google search for the phrase. This doesn't change that israel is a racist supremacist state, organized to the benefit of one ethnic group at the dear expense of others.

The irony is that even though Duke and I appear to be using similar phraseology, it's you and he who share the ideology in question. i figure, get the three of us in one room, it'd end up you and him arguing against me.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. It's strange that the King would now try and argue that there is no race.

[King_David]

18. That's called "wishful thinking"

People been wishing that even before the creation of the Jewish state.

Heck people have been declaring the Jewish people doomed for 3000 years too.

[shaayecanaan]

70. Their social issues are certainly bigger than their military issues...

the fact that their fastest-growing population sectors are the ultra-orthodox, the poor and the Arabs does not bode well for them.

[hack89]

19. Time will tell

somehow I doubt it.

[Scootaloo]

24. Well, you're heavily invested in a racist narrative.

This whole discussion hails from your own insistence that Israel will be "destroyed" if the refugees return. It's your own insistence that israel is not stable, not solid enough to accept a demographic shift. You haven't yet addressed the fact that it's your words damning and dooming Israel, owing to your own desire for a racially (oh scuse me ethnically ) pure "Jewish state."

[hack89]

25. ok nt

[King_David]

27. Strange to see such arguments as those above

On a website supporting the Democratic Party . The number one reason you never see a Democratic Party rep or candidate placing a link to here.

( "Jewish Supremism " google and see what websites the term is found at)

[Scootaloo]

29. Strange to see cheerleading for the abuse and oppression of others in the same context, too

[King_David]

32. Google the term "Jewish Supremism"

Or the exact phrase you used : "Israel is a racial supremacist state " and then check out which websites come up in the search ....and the company kept .

[Scootaloo]

61. It's super-cute how you keep doing that...

Given that it puts you in the company of Pat Robertson, Yigal amir, Dick Cheney, the shah of iran, and so many other charming upstanding fellows

Tell me. Is your support for israel derived from a Fundamentalist christian doctrine that necessitates the return of all jews to israel, which will then be followed up by a massive worldwide holy war to kill the unbelievers - including the intentional sacrifice of all Jews except 144,000 virgin men, who will convert to Christianity at the final hour when Jesus returns to israel to burn away the infidels with the flames of his gaze and smite them with the sword of his tongue?

[King_David]

76. OMG , I never understood your post, so I had to google it.

Your exact words:


'Zionism autoerotic asphyxiation'

And the most AWFUL extreme right wing hate websites come up :


https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-ContextMenu&q=Zionism+equated+to+autoerotic+asphyxiation&oq=Zionism+equated+to+autoerotic+asphyxiation&gs_l=serp.12...16023.18008.0.24843.9.9.0.0.0.0.178.839.4j4.8.0....0...1c.1.53.serp..5.4.375.Y15yTQTfR-0#rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-ContextMenu&q=Zionism+autoerotic+asphyxiation


I just hope that DU does not start to be associated with all these sites with all this shared language being posted here?

[Scootaloo]

77. You're really stretching.

It's sad to watch you keep swimming in circles like this. Like a one-legged duckling.

OMFG GOOGLE ONE-LEGGED DUCKLING OMG!!!!!

[King_David]

81. No swimming

I just keep googling when I do not understand your posts.

And the same sites pop up over and over.

The exact same sites.

Here's another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79725


Your words :

'Israel is a racial supremacist state'

https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-ContextMenu&q=Israel+is+a+racial+supremacist+state&oq=Israel+is+a+racial+supremacist+state&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.105731.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..53.serp..0.0.0.p29fiZ4Jk4o


Look at the very 1st site and 2nd site that comes up :

[Scootaloo]

87. I'll bet if you went with just "autoerotic asphyxiation' you'd get some REALLY weird ones

seems like a lot of effort spent towards making yourself look silly, rather than actually defending your position, Dave.

[Jefferson23]

78. Robin Williams is about hate sites? What are trying to do here? n/t

[King_David]

79. 2nd on list

and 7th

etc etc

[Jefferson23]

80. Yea, and what does it say..after Robin Williams. You do understand that when you receive one

as benign as an actor coming up under that wording, the others are benign as well.

Again, what are you trying to prove here?

[King_David]

82. The exact same wording is found on other sites, heres a better illustration :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79846

[Jefferson23]

83. A better illustration of what? That Israel has a racism problem? I would appreciate

you explaining the Robin Williams connection, because whatever it is you're trying to
prove, it's sounding like a 6 degrees Kevin Bacon game..or whatever they call it.

[King_David]

84. I gave you a better illustration here,

the 1st and 2nd site that pops up after I google the exact same words, the identical phrase, used here on DU.


No need to look elsewhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79846

I just keep googling when I do not understand your posts.

And the same sites pop up over and over.

The exact same sites.

Here's another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79725


Your words :

'Israel is a racial supremacist state'

https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-ContextMenu&q=Israel+is+a+racial+supremacist+state&oq=Israel+is+a+racial+supremacist+state&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.105731.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..53.serp..0.0.0.p29fiZ4Jk4o


Look at the very 1st site and 2nd site that comes up :

I just hope DU does not begin to be associated with those hate sites now.

[Jefferson23]

85. You present an illustration of Robin Williams and David Duke on one, followed by a list

of other sites..how are they all connected to the one you desire?

Which one is your desired goal? It is hard to tell what your point is in your illustration..to
use your description. You hope people don't use Google on DU?

[Jefferson23]

89. Did you mean to illustrate one like this from Harretz using that language to describe the issue?

Jewish prostitutes, Jewish thieves and Jewish supremacists

Security measures barely make the grade in curbing 'price tag' attacks. To really make a difference, Israel must strike with education.
By Joel Braunold / Jewish World blogger | May 15, 2014

Hayim Nahman Bialik, the famed Hebrew poet, stated during the 1920s that the Jews would know that their dream of a nation state had been fulfilled when there were Jewish prostitutes, Jewish thieves and a Jewish police force. David Ben Gurion, picking up on this theme, said while in office as the first Israeli prime minister, "We will know we have become a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew." We can now add to this list of prostitutes and thieves, Jewish racial supremacists.

The concept of "price tag" is very simple. When the Israeli government pursues a policy that members of the far-right do not like, they create a "cost" for the government of Israel by attacking the Arab community. Settler violence against Palestinians saw a 57 percent uptick in the first seven months of 2011, according to UN data, and since then it has continued despite condemnations from every political sector in Israel.

Over the past year, price tagging has metastasized from a phenomenon restricted to the Palestinian territories to infecting Israel within the Green Line. Car tires have been slashed while mosques and churches have been vandalized - each with a distinct political message.

“Close mosques not yeshivas,” said the graffiti in the northern Israeli-Arab town Fureidis. “Mohammed is a pig," “mutual responsibility,” "Terror stones," and “regards from Boaz and David Chai” were the statements left on the wall of mosque of Baqa al-Gharbiyye. Boaz and David are the names of two individuals whose movements were restricted by the Israel Defense Forces.

The Jewish supremacists who commit these acts are doing so much like the aristocracy of a previous time who would employ a whipping boy. Unwilling to strike their own child, they would hire a child from a lower class to whip when their own offspring misbehaved. These thugs have made the calculation not to attack Jewish institutions, but those of the Arab other, causing them harm to make political statements against their own government's policies of which they disapprove.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the-jewish-thinker/.premium-1.590920

[geek tragedy]

91. Permanent occupation of the West Bank is suicide. nt

[hack89]

92. Which is why Israel must withdraw

It is RoR within the 67 borders I was referring to.

[geek tragedy]

93. If Israel were to get itself out of the WB the RoR would be dealt with

pretty quickly. Some package of aid designated as reparations would be put towards the building of a new Palestinian state.

Problem is, there is little sign Israel has any intent of allowing a Palestinian state.

[hack89]

94. I doubt Hamas will see it that way

Considering they view all of Israel as occupied Palestine.
I don't understand why so many discount what Hamas really says or wants. I don't think they are putting on an act to pressure Israel and when they get a reasonable deal they will renounce violence and be a peaceful neighbor. The fight for supremacy between Hamas and Fatah has not been resolved and until it is clear that the Palestinians are negotiating as a single entity there will be no meaningful dialog.

[Shaktimaan]

52. So.

It's either a full right of return or nothing for the refugees then?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

54. No.

It's either a full right of return or BDS: South Afrikan style.

Please spare me the new found concern for Palestinian refugees that team hazbara wouldn't give a shizzle about had Dictatorial Egypt not come up with a bogus plan to begin with.

But please keep it spinning. It's fun to watch your fail.

[Shaktimaan]

55. Huh?

Isn't the point of BDS to achieve right of return? They're not either/or. You're basically saying right of return by choice or right of return by force, correct?

Which is the same thing as saying right of return or nothing at all. BDS certainly wouldn't force Israel to accept ROR anyway. More accurately, demanding ROR would be the death of the BDS movement.

But it's good to see where you stand. Destroying Israel is more important than the welfare of the Palestinians.

[Scootaloo]

64. Funny...

But it's good to see where you stand. Destroying Israel is more important than the welfare of the Palestinians.

As a proponent and defender of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian, whence your sudden concern for their welfare? if Israel is so deeply concerned about the welfare of the people it brutalized, murdered, purged, and has kept as exiles for sixty years, well... Maybe it should end their exile, instead of demanding that other nations pay the price for Israel's brutality.

But no, every time that entirely sensible idea is brought up, you and yours shit your pants and go on an apoplectic rampage about how that would "destroy israel." because of course, the well-being of the Palestinians is just a sham for you; your real concern, as ever, is maintaining the Jewish supremacy gained through the butchering and exile of Arabs perpetrated in 1947-48, and maintained to the modern day with brutalization, murder, and oppression.

basically, your fucked-up ideology's purity is far more valuable to you and yours, than any amount of human life.

[Shaktimaan]

67. Well

I've actually always been pro-palestinian, thus concerned for their welfare. If you'd read more of my posts you'd know that.

However, I am also concerned with the well being of the Israelis, thus I've always supported any plan that offered both groups their greatest chances for peace and success.

Seeing as how offering full immigration to the refugee population would be massively complex and dangerous for both parties, while denying both their rights to self-determination I've always opposed that suggestion. As has everyone else whose desire to see the Palestinians succeed outweighs their bloodlust at the thought of Israel failing. It creates new problems without solving any old ones.

You clearly fall into the latter camp though. You seem happy to use the Palestinians as pawns and cannon fodder in your single-minded desire to see Israel falter.

Regarding real-politick, since it's obvious that Israel would never agree to terms that aid in its own destruction, the ROR is a nonstarter. Yet you seem fixated in it as the only solution you'll consider. Even though that's the same strategy that's left the refugees languishing in camps for the past 60 years.

Why should other states pay for Israel's refusal to adopt your plan? Because it would be in the best interests of the Palestinians, obviously. A reason so alien to you that you needed it explained by a Zionist.

[Israeli]

68. " Regarding real-politick " ...

This is the " real-politick " ....this is the reality Shaktimaan....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113478262

BTW ... ROR is not the biggest obstacle to Peace ... Jerusalem is ...and always has been ...where do you stand on that Shaktimaan ?

[Shaktimaan]

95. RoR and Jerusalem...

Were supposedly the reasons Arafat abandoned the 2000 talks. Both carry equal weight IMO.

You want to know my personal views on EJ? Ok... I think that it should be a shared capital, with a clear division between sovereignty for each state. Ideally, I'd like to see Israel retain control of the old city, including the al aqsa mosque, while Palestine gets the rest. The only reason I'd prefer Israel to control the old city is bc it's only been under Israeli control that all three religions have had open access to the plethora of religious sites there. I'd like to see the mosque complex continue to be administered by a waqf to mitigate inter-religious strife as much as possible. Both sides of Jerusalem could then officially be granted capital status by the international community allowing both Israelis and Palestinians to share a city for diplomatic purposes; granting free access to both sides for diplomats, while encouraging dialogue between them and the greater diplomatic world at large.

So... What do you think?

[Israeli]

96. They dont carry " equal weight " ...

Abbas is not Arafat :

Ref : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4481648,00.html

and

http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-says-he-has-no-right-to-live-in-safed-and-has-no-demands-on-pre-1967-israel/

I'm Gush Shalom Shaktimaan ....this is what we think :

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/


Its not up to us tho is it Shaktimaan ?

...its a dream some of us had ....once upon a time ... before Bibi played his part in murdering the Two State Solution ,Oslo , Rabin and Peace .

[Scootaloo]

72. Just a moment...

I've actually always been pro-palestinian, thus concerned for their welfare. If you'd read more of my posts you'd know that.

You mean like how you never compared their ethnic cleansing to "affirmative action," Shaktimaan? Frankly you care about Palestinians the same way pat Robertson cares about gay people. "I love them in my heart, but lord almighty they need to knuckle down and livetheir lives exactly as I demand!"

However, I am also concerned with the well being of the Israelis, thus I've always supported any plan that offered both groups their greatest chances for peace and success.

No you're not. At least, you've never demonstrated that claim around here. Rather, you show concern with the well-being of Israel, the state and government, and with Zionism, the philosophy behind it, while the people can go hang. What's a few more dead Jews to someone who regards them as currency? Don't believe me? Right now Israel is using three dead boys' lives to "purchase" land in the west bank. After having similarly used their corpses as trade to justify slaughtering 2,100 Gazans.

Where's your outrage at either offense? I saw nothing but hearty support of the latter from you, and haven't seen any complaint over the former - I am left to conclude that much like the state of israel, you value Israeli lives - and Jewish lives in general - only so far as you can exploit them, dead or alive, to further the aims of the "project."

Seeing as how offering full immigration to the refugee population would be massively complex and dangerous for both parties,

No, it really wouldn't be. Unless you're going to tell me that Israel doesn't know how to process immigrants?

while denying both their rights to self-determination

Nice turn of phrase. Not dissimilar from the Republican support for the "traditional family." Who would oppose that?it's tradition! it's families! How heartwarming! of course in reality it means a patriarchal system where the man has the right to beat his wife and children, where only straight men and straight women may be involved, and often only those who adhere to christianity. Rather frightful, these 'traditional families."

So to with your "self-determination" statement. It sounds warm and fuzzy, but what you really mean is, "Israeli Jews' right to maintain ethnic dominance achieved through the brutal crime against humanity perpetrated against Arabs at the establishment of their state." A crime against humanity which, by necessity, striped and abused the Palestinians of their right to self-determination... a maneuver which again, you have shown nothing but the most eager support for.

And as we see at the end part of your post, you only support Palestinian self-determination,m when it's Israelis determining for them.

As has everyone else whose desire to see the Palestinians succeed outweighs their bloodlust at the thought of Israel failing. It creates new problems without solving any old ones.

Netanyahu wishes to see the Palestinians succeed? Naftali bennett? Avi Lieberman? Charles Krauthammer? The Americna political establishment? They all have a really funny way of expressing that desire, don't they?

You clearly fall into the latter camp though. You seem happy to use the Palestinians as pawns and cannon fodder in your single-minded desire to see Israel falter.

This idea that rectifying the ethnic cleansing you regard as holy - the Nakba - would "destroy Israel" exists solely within the minds of genocidal perverts who endorse the ethnic cleansing in the first place. All of youare utterly unable to articulate how this would cause Israel to fail, how it would "destroy Israel." There's no rhyme or logic to it, because your position is based on ETHNIC SUPREMACISM. You're not afraid of Israel "failing." you're simply afraid that the privileged and abusive position your ethnic group enjoys over another might change.

Regarding real-politick, since it's obvious that Israel would never agree to terms that aid in its own destruction, the ROR is a nonstarter.

It's Right of Return, Shaktimaan. It's like 'A Tribe Called Qwest,' you say the whole thang. And as just covered, there's no thought or reason why in the world it would "destroy" Israel. They're Arabs, Shaktiman. Not antimatter.

Yet you seem fixated in it as the only solution you'll consider. Even though that's the same strategy that's left the refugees languishing in camps for the past 60 years.

Actually that would be the Israeli policy of maintaining their exile in order to preserve the ethnic dominance Israeli Jews won through their mass murder, purges, and driving forth of the Palestinians. Year after year after year after year of refusal to let these people return is why they are refugees. Could have been solved in 1950. Israel didn't want to. 1951? Israel didn't want to. 1952? Israel didn't want to. 1953? Israel didn't want to. 1954? Israel didn't want to. 1955? Israel didn't want to. 1956? Israel didn't want to. All the way to 2014, Israel doesn't want to.

Again, this sure seems an odd way of expressing desire for the Palestinians to "succeed."

Why should other states pay for Israel's refusal to adopt your plan? Because it would be in the best interests of the Palestinians, obviously. A reason so alien to you that you needed it explained by a Zionist.

The Palestinians themselves seem to disagree. Heartily. I'm inclined to see their beliefs as to what's in their best interest, over th statements of someone who supports the perpetration of ethnic cleansing and mass murder against them.

[Shaktimaan]

97. I'll answer this.

And I'll make it simple too, because I'm tired from being out all weekend having a life.

Your argument rests on a thin, floppy, thrice re-used douchnozzle of a premise: that Zionism is predicated upon the Ethnic Superiority of the Jewish People.

This means, in scoot's head, israel exists to perfect the master Hebrew race or some other dumb shit he's been working on.

(Is it called a manifesto? I'll bet it is!!! squee! God you guys are so awesome.)

Anyway, we just have this third reich ideology going on, and we got rid of the Arabs cuz we think we're better. It's a supremacism thing. And if we let them back, one might beat my uncle at whiffle ball, and we Jews just couldn't handle that.

----

From my perspective.... There are two groups who've been fighting over the same, sad scrap of land for 100 years and everyone's really mad, and hot, and tired, but mostly just really mad. Still.

My thinking is that, regardless of all other options, we should probably not do the thing where we pour both groups into a small jar and see what happens. Because we already know what would happen, because we tried it before... Before the 100 year old conflict.

(It's actually what started that conflict, if you can believe that?!)

One more thing: the Jews aren't supremacists.. At least none of the hundreds I've met. Their worry about losing ethnic control of their state comes from a deep seated collective fear that the THING that always happens, when other folks determine our fates, that THAT thing would happen again.

But you seem confident that handing over controlling political power of our one nation state to the group who's regarded us as enemies for scores of years (and we them),
is the RIGHT thing to do for everyone, correct?

[Shaktimaan]

100. Fun one!

No you're not. At least, you've never demonstrated that claim around here. Rather, you show concern with the well-being of Israel, the state and government, and with Zionism, the philosophy behind it, while the people can go hang. What's a few more dead Jews to someone who regards them as currency? Don't believe me? Right now Israel is using three dead boys' lives to "purchase" land in the west bank. After having similarly used their corpses as trade to justify slaughtering 2,100 Gazans.

No. I don't believe you. Because I know you're 100% wrong. Because I don't regard Jews as currency to "further the aims of the "project." Since it's my opinions under discussion, I'm the only one who knows the truth. And your guesses so far have been very inaccurate. From this we can deduce that you're probably very bad at this sort of reasoning. (That paragraph where you deduced a specific, commonly held opinion of all zionists and most Israelis.) shame. If you'd gotten it right that would have been impressive.

So to with your "self-determination" statement. It sounds warm and fuzzy, but what you really mean is, "Israeli Jews' right to maintain ethnic dominance achieved through the brutal crime against humanity perpetrated against Arabs at the establishment of their state." A crime against humanity which, by necessity, striped and abused the Palestinians of their right to self-determination... a maneuver which again, you have shown nothing but the most eager support for.

Except Israel's creation didn't necessitate the denial of the Palestinians' right to self determination.

Also, you can't say that "self determination" means the denial of itself. That's just dumb.

This idea that rectifying the ethnic cleansing you regard as holy - the Nakba - would "destroy Israel" exists solely within the minds of genocidal perverts who endorse the ethnic cleansing in the first place. All of youare utterly unable to articulate how this would cause Israel to fail, how it would "destroy Israel."

Actually you can just google it. It's pretty well articulated at this point.

Just please don't stop calling Israel's entire population "genocidal perverts." It's a baller thing to say.

[Jefferson23]

6. Good for him. n/t

[azurnoir]

16. well seeing as how you apparently think the Sinai is so desirable why not settle

settlers displaced from the West Bank there? If you think it's good enough for Palestinians why not Israeli settlers?

[BillZBubb]

17. Don't ask embarrassing questions! nt

[King_David]

30. I think it's contiguous with Gaza not Israel

But at one time Israel did think Sinai to be a wonderful place to situate settlements.

Many Jewish settlements in Sinai were dismantled and evacuated by a very right wing prime minister .

[azurnoir]

34. well here's a map to show just what contiguous is more contiguous with what

also added the source of the map just in case there are any questions, it was the first to come up in my search, the organization holds opinions I do not agree with but possibly could be appreciated by some



CFOIC Heartland enables Christians to connect with the Jewish communities (settlements) in the heart of Biblical Israel. Judea and Samaria (the “West Bank”) is not occupied territory. It is the birthplace of the Jewish people.

http://www.cfoic.com/a-fresh-look-at-peace/israel-map-current-borders1/

[King_David]

36. Not so Nice map - doesn't include Gaza or WB

Last edited Fri Sep 5, 2014, 06:37 PM - Edit history (1)

At one time there was Jewish settlements all over the Sinai .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

44. "I think it's contiguous with Gaza not Israel"

~Some geographic illiterate.

[azurnoir]

59. Took you over an hour to recognize that fact?

but your change of heart is indeed nice to see

[King_David]

39. Your map has no Gaza , no WB , no Palestine.

WTF ?

[azurnoir]

60. seems it took more than an hour to recognize that fact

judging from your original comment as seen here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79745

[Calista241]

46. Because technically the Sinai is Egyptian property.

Israel captured the Sinai in the six day war of 1967. In 1982, Israel returned the Sinai to Egyptian control as a result of the Israeli - Egyptian Peace treaty.

[azurnoir]

58. well Israel seems friendly enough with Sisi perhaps a deal could be worked out

[Calista241]

71. Probably not. The Sinai borders up next to the Suez Canal

And Egypt probably doesn't want a potential strategic rival that close to the canal. That's why the negotiated the whole peace treaty in the first place, to ensure full control of the Suez.

[azurnoir]

74. ah I see but Sisi wants how many million Palestinians plopped into Sinai?

really are we supposed to take this claptrap seriously?

[Israeli]

66. the Sinai does not belong to us azurnoir....

there is however lots of free space in the Negev

[sadoldgirl]

33. I thought that I read recently

that Abbas had a proposal which Egypt agreed with to give Israel 9 month to leave the Westbank. What happened to that?

[azurnoir]

37. well the one I've heard about was 3 years and the US has rejected it because it's 'unilateral'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113479650

[sadoldgirl]

38. Is it for the US to reject it?

And what is unilateral about giving the Westbank to the Palestinians? What is in their power to offer anything else but peace?

[shaayecanaan]

69. What would they have done with the Egyptians in Rafah?

Would they have cut them off from Egypt? What about the Sinai bedouin? Seems rather rough on them, not to mention unilaterally imposing another nationality on someone else.

[Calista241]

73. Like other countries, I would imagine they'd be given a choice.

Probably dual-citizenship, and they can either stay, or take a property buyout and move to remain in Egypt. Probably a similar process if Scotland decides to leave the UK in the next few months.

[shaayecanaan]

88. the scots are being given a choice

The Egyptians would simply wake up one morning and discover that they are Palestinian.

[azurnoir]

75. What should be known here is that on a Google search every article on this subject goes back to ToI

and the article in this OP, now think about it-if Egypt had really made such an offer it beggars belief to think it would not have been picked up on by CNN, Reuters, AP, NYT at least but no everything goes back to this one article and it should be known that ToI has been printing divisive type rumors about Palestinians and their political factions since the Unity government was announced

[Mao Shung]

98. I am surprised

that Egypt made the offer. Yes, it helps the ones relocated, but it does have the potential to reduce the chance of getting more of the west bank.