Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:34 AM Mar 2015

PLO: Israel election results 'destroy chance for peace'

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- Senior PLO officials on Wednesday strongly condemned the results of Israel's general election, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party took 30 of the Knesset's 120 seats.



Israelis walk past by campaign posters showing Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu on March 12, 2015 in the Israeli city of Ramat Gan.
(AFP/Menahem Kahana)

"The results of the Israeli elections are the natural outcome of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's policies throughout his previous tenures of generating fear, hostility and distrust, as well as shifting the whole terrain of political discourse to the racist extreme," PLO Executive Committee Member Hanan Ashrawi said.

Netanyahu's policies are liable to plunge the whole region into more "extremism and violence," the senior official said, adding that under such a regime Israel will continue to be a "rogue state" which is contributing to its own "isolation and delegitimization."

"We believe it is the responsibility of the international community and its institutions, including the International Criminal Court, to end Israel's impunity, to curb Israeli violations and to prevent Netanyahu from carrying out his dangerous plans."

http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=759972
87 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
PLO: Israel election results 'destroy chance for peace' (Original Post) Jefferson23 Mar 2015 OP
Hilarious FBaggins Mar 2015 #1
Well, when the elected PM officially endorses apartheid, yes, that pretty much shuts the door. DanTex Mar 2015 #3
The door has been shut for some time FBaggins Mar 2015 #7
At least since Bibi has been in office. Probably even earlier. DanTex Mar 2015 #8
Enjoy your apartheid. Zionism is now a failed ideology along geek tragedy Mar 2015 #12
The door was shut when Bibi the baby-killer claimed, on camera no less, that he killed Olso. R. Daneel Olivaw Mar 2015 #15
Whatever helps you sleep at night Scootaloo Mar 2015 #53
Bibi has left no question about his intentions anymore "NO Palestinian State on my watch" azurnoir Mar 2015 #2
What shameless hypocrisy! Fozzledick Mar 2015 #4
March 4, 2015 - Abbas says talks with Israel still on table azurnoir Mar 2015 #5
...after he walked away from the table. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #6
after Israel refused to hold up it's end of the agreement for talks in the first place azurnoir Mar 2015 #9
You mean not releasing convicted terrorist murderers Fozzledick Mar 2015 #10
Israel agreed to release them, then said no all while building settlement units at a record pace azurnoir Mar 2015 #11
So your argument is that Bibi was awesome for stabbing the Palestinians in the back geek tragedy Mar 2015 #14
Having fun with your homemade straw-men? Fozzledick Mar 2015 #37
Geek Tragedy has a lot of friends on this board. Aerows Mar 2015 #38
What are you afraid of, truth? Fozzledick Mar 2015 #44
Your very first statement in this thread was a blatant falsehood. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #46
You misunderstand. Aerows Mar 2015 #50
Says the guy pretending that Likud are peacemakers. nt geek tragedy Mar 2015 #43
Sickening. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #54
Yes, your attempt to put your own hateful words into my mouth is truly sickening. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #55
Pointing out that if the shoe Aerows Mar 2015 #56
No dishonesty. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #57
This diversion has nothing to do with the false accusations and personal attacks you made in post 54 Fozzledick Mar 2015 #61
No diversion. Direct response. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #62
Doubling down on the personal attacks? I suppose that's all you've got. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #64
You defend the Occupation and(as far as I know)all the settlements Ken Burch Mar 2015 #65
Thanks for proving my point, but I have no respect for alert trolls. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #68
That wasn't me alerting on that. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #69
Getting harder isnt it? shaayecanaan Mar 2015 #67
Or socks...? R. Daneel Olivaw Mar 2015 #73
What dishonest apologia for rightwing racism! geek tragedy Mar 2015 #13
In regards to #1 and #2 android fan Mar 2015 #16
He really is Aerows Mar 2015 #18
recognizing Israel and recognizing it as a Jewish state are two different things. nt geek tragedy Mar 2015 #19
Israel is NOT an Jewish state. Never was. android fan Mar 2015 #20
the PLO had already recognized Israel in 1993 Bibi's additional caveat recognize us a Jewish State azurnoir Mar 2015 #21
That would be a miracle. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #58
You were alerted on. Aerows Mar 2015 #17
Results of your alert. Aerows Mar 2015 #22
for the record, my mom is not juror #1 geek tragedy Mar 2015 #23
LOL! Aerows Mar 2015 #24
Neither is #2. H2O Man Mar 2015 #33
That would be a real kick in the ass. nt geek tragedy Mar 2015 #34
And I refuse to comment H2O Man Mar 2015 #35
Oh, come on now Aerows Mar 2015 #39
That call from Maurie Povich's producers--I had nothing to do geek tragedy Mar 2015 #42
Did you get the call yet Aerows Mar 2015 #47
I was number 6! bravenak Mar 2015 #25
:) Aerows Mar 2015 #26
Yep! bravenak Mar 2015 #28
Have I not told you yet Aerows Mar 2015 #29
Thank you! bravenak Mar 2015 #32
. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #30
. bravenak Mar 2015 #31
What dishonest apologia for endless war. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #36
Lol. Congratulations on having the love child of Orval Faubus geek tragedy Mar 2015 #40
Still playing with your own straw-men, I see. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #45
No, just noting that Israel's prime minister is a virulent racist and a warmonger. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #48
Gee, you sound desperate to start a fight with someone. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #49
Did you make it to Projection 201 yet Aerows Mar 2015 #51
Desperate for a fight would be spouting Likud talking points geek tragedy Mar 2015 #52
Had I been drinking Scotch...it would have beed pouring out me nose. R. Daneel Olivaw Mar 2015 #60
To be fair Aerows Mar 2015 #41
Just like your support for Likud and the entire status quo in the West Bank. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #63
I've never said any of that, but you obviously just like to make shit up. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #66
If you wanted peace, you wouldn't keep attacking people for criticizing the Occupation Ken Burch Mar 2015 #70
I criticize people who advocate the endless continuation of the 67 year war to destroy Israel. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #71
But it's not as simple as being a "war to destroy Israel". Ken Burch Mar 2015 #72
Yes, it is as simple as being a "war to destroy Israel". That's exactly what it is. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #74
When Israel stops building and expanding illegal colonies in the West Bank, then maybe geek tragedy Mar 2015 #75
When Palestinians are willing to negotiate in good faith that will all be settled with land swaps. Fozzledick Mar 2015 #76
The Palestinians have no partner for peace in Israel. Lester Maddox Putinyahu and his geek tragedy Mar 2015 #77
Trying to make more excuses for endless war? Why??? Fozzledick Mar 2015 #78
No one is excusing war. But, someone is excusing war crimes and illegal settlements geek tragedy Mar 2015 #79
Aw, c'mon. Don't tell me you've run out of bullshit already! Fozzledick Mar 2015 #80
Oh please. Like we're cheerleading for destruction of Gaza android fan Mar 2015 #83
So now you're claiming the UN humanitarian agencies are engaged in a conspiracy geek tragedy Mar 2015 #84
It bothers me when people android fan Mar 2015 #85
. android fan Mar 2015 #86
Birther website? I love it when people who pretend to be progressives spout rightwing talking points geek tragedy Mar 2015 #87
They aren't Likud bullshit. android fan Mar 2015 #81
And Israel hasn't paused its sabotage of peace negotiations since 1967. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #82
Oh boy, yeah, this is gonna work out great. If differences on DU in America are any indication NoJusticeNoPeace Mar 2015 #27
The peace process will continue, but with other means. Little Tich Mar 2015 #59

FBaggins

(26,748 posts)
1. Hilarious
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 12:37 PM
Mar 2015

It isn't rockets, terrorists, or suicide bombers that generate fear and distrust... it's government policies related to how to respond to those attacks.

Yeah... that makes sense.

FBaggins

(26,748 posts)
7. The door has been shut for some time
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:08 PM
Mar 2015

It takes two willing partners and it was clear that Hamas is not (and may never be) willing. They made noise about accepting a two state solution as they were negotiating with the PA... but all they ever accepted was the Palestinian half of the plan. They never went beyond agreeing to a temporary halt in hostilities (if that)... never close to recognizing Israel's right to exist.

It became pretty clear in the last several days that Netanyahu's failure to accept this reality and state the obvious corollary (that the 2-state plan is dead) was hurting him.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
8. At least since Bibi has been in office. Probably even earlier.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:11 PM
Mar 2015

There's never been much doubt that Bibi was in favor of permanent apartheid, at least now it's official.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. Enjoy your apartheid. Zionism is now a failed ideology along
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 05:00 PM
Mar 2015

with Communism.

Israel is a nation of SAE frat boys.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
15. The door was shut when Bibi the baby-killer claimed, on camera no less, that he killed Olso.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 06:52 PM
Mar 2015

Give my regards to the empire and apartheid.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
2. Bibi has left no question about his intentions anymore "NO Palestinian State on my watch"
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 12:55 PM
Mar 2015

talks are now officially off the table and it was not the Palestinians who took them off, no matter what sort of excuses are made

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
4. What shameless hypocrisy!
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 02:25 PM
Mar 2015

Abbas BRAGGED about how he would never ever recognize Israel or agree to a permanent cessation of hostilities after he walked out of negotiations.

Netanyahu is just acknowledging the reality that the Palestinians have chosen to create.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
5. March 4, 2015 - Abbas says talks with Israel still on table
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 02:55 PM
Mar 2015
Ramallah (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas said Wednesday talks with Israel are still on the table, despite moves against the Jewish state at the UN and numerous failed rounds of negotiations.

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-leader-abbas-says-talks-israel-still-table-163041548.html


It was Netanyahu/Israel that definitively took talks off of the table

and oh in case you 'forgot'

the Palestinians recognized Israel on September 13, 1993.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
10. You mean not releasing convicted terrorist murderers
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:25 PM
Mar 2015

after Abbas' lieutenant bragged about how they had "duped the Jews" into releasing them with false promises to negotiate when their plan from the beginning was to walk out as soon as the last one was released?

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the PA's intentions and the reason for the current situation in a nutshell.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
11. Israel agreed to release them, then said no all while building settlement units at a record pace
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:31 PM
Mar 2015

if Israel did not want to release them it should not have agreed to it no amount of spin and confabulation can change that

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
14. So your argument is that Bibi was awesome for stabbing the Palestinians in the back
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 05:05 PM
Mar 2015

so they didn't get a chance to stab him in the back?

Sounds like someone trying to justify Germany's invasion of Russia, because Russia would have invaded first otherwise.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
38. Geek Tragedy has a lot of friends on this board.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:31 PM
Mar 2015

I think attempts to goad him should stop, but he's a big guy and speaks for himself.

That said, I don't believe anyone is waving around straw men other than you. With a side of hyperbole.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
44. What are you afraid of, truth?
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:41 PM
Mar 2015

When it's that easy to hit a nerve, it must be really sore.

And whenever someone tries to put words into my mouth that I never said, I know they have nothing honest to say.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
46. Your very first statement in this thread was a blatant falsehood.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:45 PM
Mar 2015

Where you falsely stated that Abbas tanked peace talks by refusing to recognize Israel. When the Palestinians have recognized Israel since 1993.

Given that most people here view President Obama and not Prime Minister Putinyahoo as their leader, perhaps you are a bit disoriented.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
50. You misunderstand.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:54 PM
Mar 2015

It isn't "hitting a nerve" on the part of the person you are arguing with - you, for example. It is hitting a nerve when the person you are arguing with has a near meltdown (you, for example) and attempts to lob insults at anyone and everyone - for example.

As to your last sentence, the projection is so thick, gamma rays wouldn't penetrate it, and displays my point in stark relief.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
54. Sickening.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:01 PM
Mar 2015

A poster with a Jerry Garcia icon celebrating the defeat of any and all hopes for peace in Israel/Palestine, and cheering for perpetual war and the total injustice of the settlement project.

There's no possible way to endorse what the Israeli government is doing and what Netanyahu demands(such as war with Iran, which is what bombing Iran would have to lead to) and still retain any Sixties values at all.

Could you at least do the decent thing and trade out Jerry for Toby Keith?

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
55. Yes, your attempt to put your own hateful words into my mouth is truly sickening.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:08 PM
Mar 2015

But I understand that it's because you are unable to rebut what I actually said. It must be terribly frustrating for you, but I have no sympathy for dishonesty.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
56. Pointing out that if the shoe
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:31 PM
Mar 2015

fits isn't putting "hateful words" in anyone's mouth. It's just surmising exactly what you have already said before.

I think you will find that on DU, we take people at their word.

Please clear the air if this is erroneous, but without the personal attacks or dishonesty.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
57. No dishonesty.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:34 AM
Mar 2015

In every post you've ever made here, you've been an unquestioning, undeviating defender of whatever the Likudniks have called for.

You've never condemned any of the West Bank settlements.
You've never condemned anything the IDF has done in the West Bank.
You never questioned anything that was done to Gaza.
And you've repeatedly equated any condemnation or questioning of any of the above as "anti-Israel&quot and, by implication, antisemitic).

You pretty much post the AIPAC line, day after day.

So what was in any sense inaccurate about anything I said in that post?
You do unquestioningly endorse the right-wing myth that the conflict is all the Palestinians' fault, and that they are driven by nothing but bigotry.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
61. This diversion has nothing to do with the false accusations and personal attacks you made in post 54
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 01:34 AM
Mar 2015

but I can understand why you want to change the subject after you got caught at it.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
62. No diversion. Direct response.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:19 AM
Mar 2015

I simply provided full justification for what I said in that post.

And my point about your totally inappropriate icon stands. Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead would never have supported a militaristic government anywhere. You're insulting Jerry's memory by using him as an icon.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
64. Doubling down on the personal attacks? I suppose that's all you've got.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:29 AM
Mar 2015

And I'm not the one here advocating endless war.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
65. You defend the Occupation and(as far as I know)all the settlements
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:44 AM
Mar 2015

So yes, yes you are.

If you feel that anything I've posted is unacceptable, alert on it.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
68. Thanks for proving my point, but I have no respect for alert trolls.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 03:45 AM
Mar 2015
On Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yes, your attempt to put your own hateful words into my mouth is truly sickening.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=97658

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attacks, combined with Netanyahu apologism

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 18, 2015, 11:17 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Mr. Burch did put words in the other poster's mouth......don't complain when you get called on it.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The only personal attack I see is the alert.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A harsh rebuttal, but not a PA
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No.
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
13. What dishonest apologia for rightwing racism!
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 05:04 PM
Mar 2015

1) The PA has recognized Israel for decades, so your first statement is a lie.

2) Abbas walked out of negotiations after Netanyahu refused to hold up his end of the bargain on trust-building measures. If he couldn't deliver prisoners, he sure as shit couldn't deliver a peace accord.

3) Israel is a rightwing racist state that wants to cage the Palestinians as animals, and views its own Arab citizens as alien invaders and enemies.

4) Netanyahu apologists and supporters are rightwing, racist scumbags. And if they don't like being called racist rightwing scumbags, they are free to out themselves as Republicans rather than pretending to be Democrats.

 

android fan

(214 posts)
16. In regards to #1 and #2
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:19 PM
Mar 2015
http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-no-recognition-of-israel-as-jewish-state/

But agree with you on #3 and #4.

Bibi is what is ailing Israel. The elections should have removed Bibi from power, but it didn't.

The problem Bibi currently has right now, that he alienated almost every party, and will not be able to form a coalition.

If that's the case, the elections will be in a few weeks, and Bibi will be then unceremoniously thrown out in favor of someone who can work out a plan for a 2 state solution and leave Israel alone.

 

android fan

(214 posts)
20. Israel is NOT an Jewish state. Never was.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:24 PM
Mar 2015

Bibi is dead wrong about this. And he knows this.

Yes, the majority is Jewish, but it includes a lot of minorities that makes up Israel, and Israeli-Arabs happen to take about 20% of Israel's population and was the third largest vote getters (JAL at 11%)

He's just trying to rile up the hatemongers, but he's not going to succeed because he has no plan except to bomb Iran. And for 30 years "a year away from producing nuclear weapons" - bullshit.

The sooner the Likudniks gets rid of Bibi, the sooner a coalition will be formed, with the goal of a two state solution.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
21. the PLO had already recognized Israel in 1993 Bibi's additional caveat recognize us a Jewish State
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:28 PM
Mar 2015

even though only 75% of our population is Jewish seems a bit like the Republicans wanting the US recognized as an Anglo/Saxon state not something for the 21st century IMO

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
17. You were alerted on.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:19 PM
Mar 2015

For what it is worth, the results haven't come in yet, and I agree with you. Netanyahu's re-election is going to end up being a very dark day for Israeli-US relations.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
22. Results of your alert.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:29 PM
Mar 2015

On Wed Mar 18, 2015, 06:16 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

What dishonest apologia for rightwing racism!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=97598

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

That is WAY over the top. Please remove.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 18, 2015, 06:26 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I will never vote to hide geek tragedy posts because he is teh awesome!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think this post is okay. No matter if I agree or not is another mattr. But there is no legitimate reason to "alert" on this. -- H2O Man
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Everything stated in this post is true. Perhaps the ALERTER can't bring themselves to face they may be a right wing apologist??????!
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I absolutely will not hide this, since I agree with gt.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is not over the top. There is evidence of all of this on the google.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

******************

I was juror #5.

H2O Man

(73,559 posts)
35. And I refuse to comment
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 08:33 PM
Mar 2015

on if I may or may not be your father. Let's not even go there. Don't even bring it up.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
48. No, just noting that Israel's prime minister is a virulent racist and a warmonger.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:49 PM
Mar 2015

Bibi helped Bush drag us into invading Iraq, and now he's trying to drag us into a war with Iran,.

And he's an old-school Arab-hating Likudnik who doesn't believe that Palestinians have human rights.

Which is why only racist, rightwing war pigs support him.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
51. Did you make it to Projection 201 yet
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:57 PM
Mar 2015

or are you still trying to be the head of the class in Projection 101?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
41. To be fair
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 09:40 PM
Mar 2015

any apologia for war makes one ... a person that desires war. And our war in the ME seems like it is endless due to the lives of loved ones we have lost.

The treasury that the American people has had squandered in their name.

The only dishonesty is attempting to provoke someone to fight a war that *you* want, but aren't willing to pay for in blood and treasure, while asking someone to fight the fight you picked to begin with.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
63. Just like your support for Likud and the entire status quo in the West Bank.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:20 AM
Mar 2015

Nothing but an apologia for endless war.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
66. I've never said any of that, but you obviously just like to make shit up.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 03:33 AM
Mar 2015

Truly pathetic. I'd like nothing better than peace, which is why you keep attacking me. Your hatred appears to be an end in itself.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
70. If you wanted peace, you wouldn't keep attacking people for criticizing the Occupation
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 04:30 AM
Mar 2015

and the settlements. And you wouldn't keep insinuating that criticism of Israeli security is antisemitism.

You need to accept that the Israeli side as at least as much to blame for the conflict as the "Palestinian leadership".

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
71. I criticize people who advocate the endless continuation of the 67 year war to destroy Israel.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 05:13 AM
Mar 2015

You can try to twist that around all you want, but the nastier and sleazier you get about it, the more ridiculous you look, and the farther you get from the truth the harder it is to take anything you say seriously.

And when I see someone obsessively and fanatically vilifying Israel for defending itself against openly genocidal totalitarian aggressors in a manor that goes WAY beyond honest "criticism" to blatant incitement of hatred and violence consistent with a pro-war propaganda campaign, it does raise some very ugly questions about the motivation behind it that their usual cover stories don't begin to account for.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
72. But it's not as simple as being a "war to destroy Israel".
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 09:57 PM
Mar 2015

Palestinians have been fighting dispossession-that's something anyone would fight anywhere. And they aren't bigots for fighting that.

Yes, they have had horrible leaders(as has Israel, in equal measure-Palestinians have every right to regard the Occupation and the settlements as totally unjustified acts of collective punishment and oppression) but they also have legitimate grievances.

And for all the sanctimony about "terrorism", the Israeli government and the allegedly "world's most moral army&quot the IDF) have suppressed not only people engaged in armed struggle, but also almost all nonviolent protest. And they have harassed the Palestinian population collectively in completely unjustifiable ways-such as the destruction of solar panels built to provide energy for Palestinian villages just because the Occupation authorities hadn't approved the construction of those panels(even though there is no possible way to weaponize solar energy).

If you want Palestinian violence to end, you have to defend their right to resist nonviolently without getting violent repression in response. And the basic humanity of the Palestinian people has to be acknowledged, as well as their equally deep connection with the lands in question. This can be done without putting Israel's existence into question-and it must be done if there is any hope of getting Palestinians to change in the way you want them to change(and the way I'd like to have any reason at all to ask them to change).

And if you want peace, you have to back, at the very minimum, a two-state solution, and at the earliest possible date. It's only possible to get a more reasonable Palestinian leadership once they have gained independence. Keep them under Occupation, and all that can happen is the encouragement of the exact same "circle the wagons" mentality that just re-elected that murderous bastard Netanyahu(a man Palestinians have just as much right to consider a terrorist as Israelis have to consider the Hamas leadership one). If the Israel government keeps trying to block the creation of a Palestinian state, it has no right to expect or to ask the Palestinian people to try to change their leadership at all, and no right to expect the surrounding Arab states to make peace(it's impossible for them to simply abandon the Palestinians, since virtually everyone in the Arab/Muslim world is a committed supporter of Palestinian self-determination)and despite the cynical and insensitive attempts by the Israeli right to revive the idea, an Israeli-Jordanian confederation in which Palestinians are denied self-government will never be acceptable to any significant number of people in the West Bank-if they'd been ok with that idea, they would not have founded the PLO in 1964, at a time when the West Bank was still under Jordanian rule.

Finally, Israel has to be willing to accept at least partial physical RoR, with those who aren't allowed to return physically being given apologies for the expulsion of their ancestors in 1948 and an official acknowledgment that they have the right to identify as Palestine and to see Palestine as their home(in addition to compensation for any monetary or property losses). And Israel should be willing to accept those people, if they aren't allowed to move to their families' homes in pre-1967 Israel, being allowed to move to the West Bank and to at least visit the family homes they forfeited. It's cruel to say they can't ever see the places where their grandparents lived.

Israel has a right to exist(although Netanyahu's insistence that it be recognized by Palestinians "as a Jewish state"-a demand the Israeli negotiators NEVER made of Egypt or of Jordan, btw-is petty and childish, since simply recognizing the state by definition recognizes is as a Jewish homeland)but Palestinians equally have a right to self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza. And while the massive injustices done to European Jewry that led to Israel's creation still need to be urgently addressed(in some ways the creation of Israel may, unintentionally, have let Europe and North America's antisemites off the hook by pretending that the creation of this state, by itself, was enough to clean the slate) it needs to be acknowledged, in my view, that it was never really fair for Israeli propaganda to cast the Palestinians and the other Arabs as the successors in villainy to Hitler, the tsars, Torquemada, and the Roman Empire. The Arab/Palestinian position on Israel, while sometimes expressed in an antisemitic-sounding way(which was always unacceptable) was not driven by the same things that drove the murderous actions of Christian Europe and Pagan-then-Christian Rome-it was driven far more by questions of control of the land and by a wish to avoid Western influence in the region.

Both sides in the I/P dispute made a lot of mistakes, and both sides, equally, need to change.

But there's no way "staying the course" on the West Bank and Gaza can lead to positive change on either side. Preserving the status quo is the worst of all options, since it means preserving a complete lack of hope.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
74. Yes, it is as simple as being a "war to destroy Israel". That's exactly what it is.
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 03:25 PM
Mar 2015

That's why the Palestinians have consistently rejected every offer of a two state solution; they don't really want it. They think they can eventually achieve conquest if they just refuse to make peace, and so the war drags on without end.

To suggest that Israel can appease them by surrendering territory while they continue to press their attacks, or that a stable state can be created without a solid peace agreement and cessation of hostilities first is absurd. As we've seen in Gaza, it only reinforces their belief that violence is the way to success and encourages an immediate escalation.

And it isn't Israel that chooses to preserve the status quo. Their original plan was to withdraw from the West Bank as soon as Gaza stabilized, but the Palestinians choose to prevent that.
Hamas is happy with their Iranian-financed dictatorship in Gaza, and Abbas is perfectly content to divert foreign aid into his Swiss bank accounts. Neither of them want a real peace that would threaten their personal cash flow and local monopoly on power.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
75. When Israel stops building and expanding illegal colonies in the West Bank, then maybe
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 04:33 PM
Mar 2015

the Likud bullshit you're spouting could be credible if one squinted hard enough.

But, people who insist that Israeli settlement building hasn't done severe harm to the potential for peace are some combination of blatantly dishonest and blinded by hatred for the Palestinians.

Which describes all of Netanyahu's apologists.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
76. When Palestinians are willing to negotiate in good faith that will all be settled with land swaps.
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 04:51 PM
Mar 2015

Until then they have no one but themselves to blame for endlessly extending the war they started and lost decades ago.

And FWIW, I take your clumsy attempts to provoke a fight as an expression of your frustration at your own inability to make a meaningful rebuttal. Amusing but pathetic.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
77. The Palestinians have no partner for peace in Israel. Lester Maddox Putinyahu and his
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 05:15 PM
Mar 2015

settlement expansion policies are proof of that, as is his pronouncement that there will be no Palestinian state as long as he is PM.

"that will all be settled with land swaps."

No one here is stupid enough to believe that dishonest bullshit. The entire point of building those colonial outposts is to make a Palestinian state impossible, by carving up the Palestinian territory so that it's impossible for Palestinians to travel inside their own territory, let alone be self-governing.

The official noted that Netanyahu also admitted that, during his first term as prime minister in the mid-1990s, he had approved construction at the Israeli settlement of Har Homa to cut off any possible linkage between Palestinian-majority areas. “It was a way of stopping Bethlehem from moving toward Jerusalem,” Netanyahu said.

“To actually come out and say that this construction is actually driven by efforts to undermine a future Palestinian state is fairly dramatic,” said the official. He added that the Obama administration is focused not just on Netanyahu’s comments but on his “several-year record of action on this issue” casting doubt on his desire for a peace agreement.


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/israels-america-united-116203.html

Israel's extreme rightwing government is explicitly pro-settlement expansion and dominated by the settler groups. The settlers are the ones who elected Putinyahu.

Anyone who suggests Netanyahu would deploy the IDF to evict those people has as much credibility as the Kremlin trolls who claim Ukraine shot down MH17.

And those who waved their pom-poms for the IDF's slaughter of children in Gaza really should not be heard to talk about Palestinian violence.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
78. Trying to make more excuses for endless war? Why???
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 05:31 PM
Mar 2015

Don't you know there aren't any?


"No one here is stupid enough to believe that dishonest bullshit." My my, you do tempt me, but I don't think anyone who's read your posts could take that claim seriously.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
79. No one is excusing war. But, someone is excusing war crimes and illegal settlements
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 05:36 PM
Mar 2015

whose sole purpose is to make a negotiated settlement impossible.

Go ahead. Your repetitive, unsubstantiated slurs against the Palestinians and knee-jerk defense of every crime Israel has ever committed has broken my will through sheer force of tedium.

Also, if I wanted to debate people with the extreme rightwing viewpoint, I would not be here.

Toodles.



Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)
80. Aw, c'mon. Don't tell me you've run out of bullshit already!
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 05:52 PM
Mar 2015

You can always just keep chanting "apartheid" and "genocide" over and over the way the Republicans do with "Benghazi" and "birth certificate". It's an easy propaganda technique for those with nothing of substance to say and no regard for the truth.

"Also, if I wanted to debate people with the extreme rightwing viewpoint, I would not be here."

Obviously, you're here to insult and vilify people with a progressive leftwing viewpoint that you can't seem to tolerate. I can only wonder why.

 

android fan

(214 posts)
83. Oh please. Like we're cheerleading for destruction of Gaza
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 06:06 PM
Mar 2015

No we're not.

Over 3,000 rockets were launched from Gaza towards Israel.

Granted, most of them were crude, but their intent was to destroy Israel per their charter.

The fact is, that Israel has every right to defend itself. They target Hamas, not children. Unfortunately, Hamas decided to choose urban warfare and locate, through their UN connections (UNRWA, and UNHRC) to move rockets into schools, hospitals, homes, etc, causing unnecessary causalities that are 100% Hamas fault.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
84. So now you're claiming the UN humanitarian agencies are engaged in a conspiracy
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 06:08 PM
Mar 2015

to help Hamas kill innocent Jews.

If dead Palestinians bother you in the slightest, you do a very good job of hiding it. Because to your crowd the outrage isn't the IDF killing children, it's people pointing out that the IDF is killing children.

 

android fan

(214 posts)
85. It bothers me when people
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 06:19 PM
Mar 2015

just spread more propaganda about Israel without checking their facts first.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
87. Birther website? I love it when people who pretend to be progressives spout rightwing talking points
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 06:33 PM
Mar 2015

and then back those talking points up with batshit insane rightwing BIRTHER websites.

Let's see what else the lovely folks at your website believe:

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/obama-backs-tehrans-push-for-hegemony/2015/03/16/

Obama backs Tehran's push for hegemony


http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/obama-supports-anti-semitic-palestinian-agenda-of-jew-free-state/2014/10/02/

Obama supports anti-Semitic Palestinian agenda for Jew-free state


http://www.jewishpress.com/news/yoris-daily-news-clips/the-nice-lady-who-destroyed-obama/2012/05/18/0/?print


If it turns out – as it probably has, now – that Barack Obama lied to all of us about having been born in Kenya, we should not forgive him. Not because he's a liar but because he's stupid. Stupid enough to believe you can fool all the people all the time. Certainly not in the You Tube and Facebook era.


http://www.jewishpress.com/news/yoris-daily-news-clips/supreme-court-wont-hear-birther-appeal-obama-may-be-american-after-all/2012/06/12/

Supreme Court Won't Hear Birther Appeal; Obama may be American after all


http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/stunning-insensitivity-from-michelle-obama/2014/02/11/

Michelle Obama’s lust for luxury has always been a bit of a problem for her husband and Democrats in general. Jetting off to five star resorts with a large entourage has too much dissonance with the rhetoric denouncing inequality currently in favor with the left. But the First Lady has now outdone herself, and because a picture is worth a thousand words, the damage may be a bit more serious than the occasional grumble over designer shoes and livin’ large.




Etc etc etc.

Thanks for officially outing yourself.

We need better hasbara trolls.
 

android fan

(214 posts)
81. They aren't Likud bullshit.
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 05:59 PM
Mar 2015

They are facts.

Abbas is in his 10th year of his 4 year term. He has not even called for an election since he took the helm of PA.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
82. And Israel hasn't paused its sabotage of peace negotiations since 1967.
Fri Mar 20, 2015, 06:03 PM
Mar 2015

Nobody outside of AIPAC headquarters will believe the Israelis are genuinely interested in a negotiated settlement until they stop expanding the settlements.

The current and next Israeli government oppose a two-state solution--they just vaguely pretend to in order to give cover to their shameless apologists in the US.

Netanyahu's two-faced solution this past week and his admission he built settlements to carve up the Palestinians' territory are per se proof of that.

Everyone on the planet knows this.

If they wanted a negotiated settlement with a Palestinian state resulting, they wouldn't be lustily expanding the settlements with the explicit purpose of making the Palestinian territories ungovernable.

When they're serious about peace, they'll stop that stuff. Doesn't cost them anything to stop making things worse.

But, until then it's just a lie.


NoJusticeNoPeace

(5,018 posts)
27. Oh boy, yeah, this is gonna work out great. If differences on DU in America are any indication
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 07:40 PM
Mar 2015

can you imagine how bad it is gonna be there in Israel

Gonna be a war, for sure.

Or more war, Iran, etc

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
59. The peace process will continue, but with other means.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:49 AM
Mar 2015

Israel will be taken to the ICC over alleged war crimes as well as the legality of the settlements and the occupation itself. Israel has pretended to negotiate for decades, but in the end Israel hasn’t offered a single square inch of land, only demanded land from the Palestinians. There is no reason to see the absence of meaningless negotiations as a loss, IMHO.

The only good thing that comes out of this is that Netanyahu is already not very well liked internationally, and that he is seen as an obstacle to peace with the Palestinians.

I don’t know if there is still time for a two-state solution, I feel that a one-state solution is perhaps easier and more fair to everyone. The problem is that if Netanyahu isn’t stopped, the one-state solution will be the only solution left.

Damn, I really hoped that Israel could get rid of this bell end.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»PLO: Israel election resu...