"You know perfectly the position of Christ on this issue."

[uriel1972]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-29/pope-francis-says-it-is-not-his-place-to-judge-homosexuals/4851802

So, the Pope says it's not gays as such, but gay activists. You can be part of the church as long as you sit down, shut up and not have gay sex apparently.

It's a bit better than the last one's admonition that gays are a bigger problem than climate change, but not by much. More of a PR cleanup than anything by my reckoning.

ps. not much luck on the women priests, although women are encouraged to play a bigger role in the church. Again I think this Pope is window dressing.

[madrchsod]

1. this pope has about ten years

how much will he be able to turn the ship around before he dies? that is the question. personally i hope this guy makes reforms that just might stick but trying to change the world`s oldest criminal organization is a tad bit difficult.

[Moonwalk]

2. Patronizing token gestures again: We welcome you, we want to have you...

...but don't think or act or be anything we don't want you to be.

So patronizing. And really, it's getting tiring these token gesture in place of real ones. And it's even more tiring the way everyone reports these gestures as they were a big deal. As if the church is bending over backwards to...what? Maintain the status quo even as they pretend to be more welcoming and liberal?

It's like the Pope saying the other day how everyone should take care of the poor. Yes, we'll agree they should and it's nice of him to focus on that. "We care about you, poor people!" he says. But don't expect the church to change it's position on birth control which could really help the poor get out of poverty. Ditto here. Don't expect the church to really do anything that might give Catholic women real power or gays real acceptance.

Same as it ever was.

[Plantaganet]

3. Well said! n/t

[theHandpuppet]

5. Oh come on...

Doncha know we won't be happy until the Pope shows up in a speedo at a gay pride parade? At least that's what I just read... that and we should stop yammering about our rights.

[nomorenomore08]

7. Yeah, that was a weird comment (the other guy's, not yours). Seemed rather over-the-top to me.

nt

[VWolf]

31. Yeah, but wouldn't it be cool if he did? n/t

[nomorenomore08]

6. Unfortunately, I think you're most likely correct.

As a non-practicing "cultural" Catholic - i.e. raised/educated in the Church - I'd like to be optimistic about Francis's intentions. But if nothing else, I think these aspects of Church doctrine are too deeply ingrained to really change, at least in our lifetime. As you said, I think it'll be more cosmetic than anything else.

[dbackjon]

15. Sounds like the Democratic Party

[love_katz]

4. K&R...

for Moonwalk's comment.

[Tien1985]

8. Kr nt

[theHandpuppet]

9. Cardinal Dolan was interviewed on the Today Show this morning

He was interviewed about the Pope's recent statements. Admitted that there has been no change in policy, just what he called "a change in tone". He reiterated that there will be no gay priests, no women priests, no gay marriage, and that homosexuality is immoral.

[dballance]

27. Thank You Pedophile Protector and Asset Protector in Chief, Dolan.

Dolan is a jerk. His actions in hiding Church assets clearly show he's more interested in the institution than its parishioners and those in need. I sure as hell don't see him, or just about any other bishop or cardinal, living the ascetic life of Jesus. Renouncing worldly things for God. I bet that SOB is drinking out of fine crystal or silver and eating off of fine china that 99% of his "flock" will never be able to afford. Looking at his rather obvious jowls it is quite apparent he's not hurting for food.

[Old Union Guy]

36. ... no gay priests ... ???

Oh.

He means officially gay.

[One_Life_To_Give]

10. Politically it's significant

It seems far too small for us in North America and Europe. But his comments are also reported to his followers in Africa and South and Central America. I imagine the Ugandan Catholic conference would rebel if he endorsed marriage equality. So I think it's significant in some parts of the globe for him to make such a statement. Weather we see a softening amongst the comments from US Bishops etc. is still to be seen.

[theHandpuppet]

11. I think your information is outdated

Many countries in South and Central America have already made the kind of steps towards GLBT equality that are absent in many European countries and here in the U.S. Making some lame statement about "tolerance" following a trip to Brazil is rather like shutting the barn door after the horse has already taken off for greener pastures. The Brazilians were way ahead of him already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_same-sex_marriage

[One_Life_To_Give]

17. Most of Central and Islands is not tolerant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Americas

Yes in Central America only Beleize criminalizes same sex sexual activity. But if that's tolerance we are in big trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa

[theHandpuppet]

18. I know about the islands

You did not initially refer to the islands so I didn't respond in kind. Jamaica, for instance, is one of the most homophobic places around. I sincerely doubt a few soft platitudes from the Pope are going to have any effect on their entrenched homophobic and misogynic culture. Conversely, the church's stance that gay sex is immoral, that there will be no acceptance of gay marriage, gay or women priests, reproductive choice, et al only reinforces those who seek to justify the oppression and misery of millions. And the church backs up those hateful, bigoted policies with political and monetary clout, not just words.

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. His admonishion to the Vatican's internal "Gay Lobby"

says more about why policies within the US are not likely to change. Still his softer tone I think delivers a message to the Priests in more Homophobic locals. But my main point was really that his comments were directed to a much wider audience. While in the US it signals no change perhaps as the US Priesthood is already far to the left of the Vatican. It's also a signal to the more conservative elements within the church.

[Glaug-Eldare]

12. What exactly are people hoping for?

There is a firm religious doctrine about sin, repentance, and salvation. There is a definite set of behaviors which are deemed sinful, and one of them is homosexual acts. This is not going to change, and it's silly for non-Catholics to think that activism and political pressure are going to influence the Catholic church's interpretation of scripture. Their decisions are not made on the basis of popularity among non-Catholics, nor will they be in the future. What Pope Francis has said is remarkably positive, because it affirms that the mere orientation is not, in itself, grounds for exclusion or punishment by the Church. This is a big step forward

There is a very, very, very important distinction that must be made by observers here: Attraction to the same sex is not the same thing as engaging in homosexual sex acts. It is entirely possible to be a homosexual and never have gay sex. Whether you think it's an unreasonable demand or not, this is a standard of sin which exists and will exist. The significance of Pope Francis's statement is not that the average sexually-active gay man or woman is not sinning by continuing to engage in these acts -- it is that it is not necessary to "reform" homosexuals and change their attraction before they can be achieve salvation. He is saying that acceptance of Jesus as the messiah, and an earnest desire to stop sinful behaviors are the standard for homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. (The desire bit is very important. Straight Catholics sin, know it, and confess. They believe that there has never been a sinless human being besides Jesus.)

The church still believes that homosexual relationships and acts are sinful, and uses its political influence to support laws against them, but the Pope has made a very important statement about gays' eligibility for salvation, and this is good news because it discourages Catholics from viewing homosexuals as innately inferior in the eyes of God. This is good news.

I still disagree strongly with their attempts to influence civil law, but it's important to understand what he is saying and what he is not saying.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Wow.

This is so offensive I don't know where to begin, so I won't.

[Glaug-Eldare]

14. What's wrong with it?

I have no intention to offend anyone; I just want to shed some light on religious doctrine with which many activists are completely unfamiliar.

[dbackjon]

29. Religious doctrine that is WRONG

Why doesn't the church still support slavery? It is defended in the Bible.

[Glaug-Eldare]

32. Then don't be Catholic?

Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm trying to provide information about what this statement means in the context of Catholic beliefs. Like them or not, they exist and are crucial to understanding what the Pope is saying and is not saying. There are things the Catholic church is willing to do, and things it is not. Sticking your head in the sand will not help to influence the largest, most organized, and most influential religious group in the world. I reject Catholicism entirely, but the fact remains that there are over a billion Catholics in the world, and they're not going away. Understanding them is essential to influencing them.

[dbackjon]

33. There is no understanding of hatred and bigotry

to try to understand it is an attempt to justify and excuse it.

[Glaug-Eldare]

34. Sorry, but the world's more complicated than bumper stickers.

Shutting your eyes and saying "la la la, I'm not listening" won't do anything at all to improve conditions for LGBT people in Catholic communities and families. I mean, literally, it does nothing.

I can just imagine your take on psychiatric doctors now -- "Trying to understand paranoid schizophrenia is just an attempt to justify and excuse it!"

[theHandpuppet]

35. I think the Pope has already cornered the market on bumper sticker ditties

When GLBTs and women are actually treated as equals by the church, give us a call.

[Moonwalk]

16. As a non-Catholic, I don't think activism will influence or change anything...

The church is rich, powerful, and has a lot of hospitals, churches and schools in poor areas with no birth control. That means, plenty of new and old followers to keep it fat and content. Why should it change anything outside of it's "tone" so that it sounds less mean? Thus allowing those who do belong to say, "See! It's gentle and friendly and it cares about us."

I don't know what non-Catholics you know (or Catholics for that matter, as many of them seem to be living in perpetual hope of a miracle), but I've no illusions about the Catholic Church changing. Which is why I'd urge Catholic gays and women who want something different to convert to Episcopalian. It's like waiting for that abusive boyfriend to change. It's easier and faster to change yourself. And, thus, find whatever it is you're after (religious acceptance, being able to serve god as you wish, etc.). Leave the one who won't change and become what you want before your life is over and you realize you spent the whole of it waiting for someone else to make you happy.

Obviously, as a non-Catholic, such urging is presumptuous of me, but you brought up what non-Catholics think of all this and that's what I think.

Now, of course, letting the Vatican influence American laws regarding the right of American gays or women (or similar laws in may other countries for that matter) is a whole other story. In that, I urge everyone to stop them however they can be stopped. Period.

[dbackjon]

28. Then the Catholic Church, and Christian Churches that believe gay sex is sinful

Are fucked up, and anyone that supports them is supporting/helping bigotry.

[MNBrewer]

20. Love the pope, hate the papacy.

?

[Fearless]

21. Obviously looking to make the church relevant to youth of today.

But it won't work. Too little, too late.

[theHandpuppet]

22. I have to admit, your posts have confused me

That's not meant as an attack but an observation. Your recent post regarding this issue to the LBN thread seems diametrically opposed to those you have posted here on the LGBT forum. Maybe you could help me out here with a little clarification.

[Fearless]

24. Of course!

I'd suggest that the church is actively trying to become relevant to the youth of the first world. They aren't stupid people, albeit misguided imho. They realize that a bulk of their support is aging and or not wealthy (in a world wide sense). The church thrives on youth recruitment and the money it brings in. They know this. I believe the pope was selected because his views echo a younger-orientated vision.

At the same time I don't think it will work. More than two to one in the US people under 35 support marriage equality for instance... never mind birth control, womens rights, premarital sex etc.

Its a step in the right direction nevertheless. I don't approve of the church and 99% of what they do. But when we look at progress made in progressive values we have to treat people and groups equitably not equally. For some to move a fraction of an inch can be just as big as another moving a lot. For example if President Carter stated tomorrow that he believed in full marriage equality that would be nice. But if Rush Limbaugh even said there are conditions he would consider it... that would be huge! I think the same applies here.

Again though, the church is far off still but it wouldn't hurt to support their continued movement even if you perhaps like me think their entire organization us a corrupt criminal empire taking advantage of the helpless add much our more than they help them. Imho of course.

[theHandpuppet]

25. Thanks for your response

I'm afraid we'll have to disagree about supporting "their continued movement". IMO, all I've heard are a bunch of rewrapped platitudes, signifying nothing, yet we're supposed to thank them for recycling the gift. Women and GLBTs continue to suffer by the millions due to the hateful policies of this church, countless numbers doomed to poverty, others to ostracization, homelessness, despair, beatings, back alley abortions and even murder. When that "movement" of theirs evolves into real reform I will applaud.

[Fearless]

30. Time will tell I suppose.

And no problem!

[LuvNewcastle]

23. The only good thing that I see might come from

the Pope's statements is that maybe it will influence the more hardcore Catholics to be more tolerant. I seriously doubt it will affect the church's policy toward gay people. I think GLBT people should take these statements with a grain of salt. There are other denominations that welcome GLBT people just as they are with open arms. Until the Catholic Church has a policy like the Episcopal Church, for instance, I see no need for gay people to worry about what the Catholic Church does.

[theHandpuppet]

26. I agree

But it's hard not to respond with every move made by the Catholic church when confronted with between 350-400 Pope-related threads on GD and LBN during the first 7 months of the year. I've tried to ignore them but I've just had enough. I'm sick of it. Why should anyone be subjected to that many threads about a misogynic homophobe on a democratic forum, especially the constant praise? The situation has gotten so out of whack I don't know why this is even allowed.