Falling into the Cracks on Memory Lane

[liberaltalkingpoints]

[link:http://liberaltalkingpoints.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/falling-into-the-cracks-on-memory-lane/|Sometimes when I look at the push by conservatives to pass restrictions controls and private invasions over rights to choose and contraception, I think the GOP would be happy taking us back to some Victorian 1800s form of culture or maybe back to the pilgrim days when the ladies got scarlet letters and witch trials. Our country has taken years to evolve, but we have evolved as a society and culture. It never fails to surprise me how much our GOP counterparts yearn for days of yore when the ladies wore long gowns and men nearly creamed at the sight of a mere bare ankle.
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Speaking of the pilgrims, they left their country, bloody old britain, to escape the power of a religion that wielded the power of the State in their personal lives, religion and society. The State enforced an adherence to a particular belief system that was in disagreement with the beliefs of the puritans. This was the conflict that birthed the concept of separation of church and state in our own constitution. Funny how ‘freedom of religion’ is now being used by the GOP to allow a church to wield the power of the State.

Are the evangelical conservatives really that backwards? I guess it's time to dust off the frocks and chastity belts.

[unc70]

1. That distorts and whitewashes the Pilgrims actions and motives

The Pilgrims (or Saints as they called themselves) are one of the last groups to use as examples of religious freedom or separation of church and state.

They made laws against celebrating Christmas (war on Christmas). For them, religion controlled the state, far from them being separate institutions.

They and other Calvinists are where we get the evangelical, intolerant strain of American Protestantism.

[liberaltalkingpoints]

2. you need to reread my post

It is nearly self evident that there is a strident lack of tolerance for differences within their religion. That is why I referenced the scarlet letter and witchcraft. Yet they too crossed an ocean to have freedom from the domination of another religion.

I am not claiming that the puritans established separation of church and state. I am claiming that their struggle for independence from the church of england helped the the founders of our nation evolve the concept of church-state separation.

It is clear to me from other responses just like yours how confused we have become over the notion of church state separation vis a vis 'religious freedom'.

[unc70]

3. I'm not the one confused

You keep co-mingling the Pilgrims and the Puritans. While they each were intolerant Calvinist sects, they initially settled in two separate and often antagonistic colonies, neither a good example of religious tolerance, freedom or the separation of church and state.

Calvin himself, or I should say Jean Cauvin, was all about intolerance and for making church law superior to that of the state.

The myth of New England and its settlers becoming the myth of American Exceptionalism, etc. was mostly invention of Webster, et al two centuries later.

[liberaltalkingpoints]

4. You don't get the point

Maybe if you put on your glasses and reread the posts, you'll get my point. Your argument is tangential. Best wishes, Joe

[unc70]

5. I re-read all your posts and the linked article

Funny how ‘freedom of religion’ is now being used by the GOP to allow a church to wield the power of the State.

Not just now, but exactly what the Pilgrims did nearly four centuries ago.

If you are trying to make some other point, I have looked and can not find it.

[liberaltalkingpoints]

6. one more time just for unc70

In my post, I referenced how evangelicals appear to want to take us back to the intolerance of the puritans.

Next paragraph I referenced the irony that the puritans themselves escaped the intolerance of another religion dominating them through state power.

I did not ever state that the puritans originated the concept of separation of church and state. I said the struggle of the puritans to escape the dominance of the church of england influenced the founders when they were writing the constitution.

The pilgrims were a sect of the puritans who were followers of reverend John Robinson, a man who wrote in favor of separating church doctrine from the power of government. The Mayflower Compact reflects this notion and is widely cited by historians as influential with the founding fathers.

Yes, it did not even take a generation before the massachusetts puritans were infusing their state power with the beliefs from their religion. Also, there were other settlements in other colonies that held onto the 'religion free from government' concept more steadfastly.

Yet, there are not any better examples of both exhibiting intolerance and being victims of intolerance in our history however. Feel free to split more hairs if you wish, unc70.

myth of separation

The Separation of Church and State

[unc70]

7. I understand your new points, but I disagree even more

Thanks for "enlightening" little ole me.

The points you raised in your last post were not obvious to me from your earlier efforts.

I still disagree with your view of these issues. Further, I strongly disagree with the framing of the discussion of these topics as presented at the linked sites.

I am more than a familiar with these and related topics, both as academic and philosophical studies and because of specifics of my family histories.

At that, good night.