Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:50 PM Feb 2012

Invisible Women

This topic has been done many times. Interestingly, I hadn't read anything about the "invisible woman" but came to the term on my own.

I was talking to a friend and telling her about how now that I am older I seem invisible to people. Gone are the days when the grocery sacker rushed to help me. The waitresses seem to glide past my table when my elderly mother and I are out. No second looks when I walk down the street. At parties, I used to be swarmed... no more.
I am a post menopausal woman. I don't exist any more. I have no value. I am invisible.

She said.. Nancy, there are tons of books and articles that say the same thing. You are saying what many already have said.

I just read this short blog. It's a good read.

http://www.katehorsley.com/blog/2011/02/01/invisible-women/ - author Kate Horsley's blog.
Read some of her other stuff. It's a nice blog.

Excerpt:

When I was a teenager in the 60′s, I was hot. Yes, indeed. I went braless, wore halter tops and mini-skirts; I had long red hair and what my mother called “bedroom eyes.”

My mother in her day was a classic beauty, though she was embarrassed that she had large breasts. I had neither the big breasts nor the stunning face of my mother. But men looked at me, and when my mother and I went out together, to the grocery store for example, she’d walk behind me and watch how men would turn and look as I passed. “When you get to be my age,” she said when she was five years younger than I am today, “you’re invisible.” She was amused, not bitter.

I used to pity women over forty who seemed pathetically doomed to invisibility, uncool, unsexy and basically worthless. Even as a feminist, somewhere deep in my very shallow soul – the waters barely sloshing around my ankles at the time — I believed that to be sexy as a woman was more valuable than say, winning the Nobel Prize. But to be sexy AND win the Nobel Prize – that would most definitely be cool.

Now 58 years old, I stand up in front of five classrooms full of men and women. In that sense people are forced to look at me. And I’ve got a partner, whose soul’s waters aren’t so shallow as mine were, who loves my aging self. So, I can’t complain about being invisible. But I am not remotely hot in any public way, and I don’t see any chance of winning the Nobel Prize unless there’s some apocalyptic occurrence and the only person left to receive the prize besides me is George W. Bush.

The rest is at the link...
-------------------------

I'm not just posting this for other women my age, but also for you younger women. Know what is ahead, but also to remember your older sisters and don't discount us. Perhaps be aware of your own feelings when you see an older woman.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Invisible Women (Original Post) OKNancy Feb 2012 OP
I'm 53 and for the most part I don't feel bad about it at all notadmblnd Feb 2012 #1
Yes, and NO HockeyMom Feb 2012 #2
I know how you feel all american girl Feb 2012 #5
"Is your Mommy home?" HockeyMom Feb 2012 #8
For me it was like some power had been taken away from me OKNancy Feb 2012 #3
that's exactly how I've felt zazen Feb 2012 #11
I am 63 and a bit older than you HockeyMom Feb 2012 #4
it's embarrassing to admit that some days this prospect is terrifying zazen Feb 2012 #6
attractive older women are called "handsome" OKNancy Feb 2012 #7
hah! yes, it's almost equestrian or something zazen Feb 2012 #9
that's funny, because I used to say I could wait to get old and be eccentric OKNancy Feb 2012 #15
Honestly I feel MORE empowered as a older women HockeyMom Feb 2012 #10
that's inspiring! n/t zazen Feb 2012 #14
actually, do you 40-50-somethings seem to elicit new male resentment? zazen Feb 2012 #12
That's always happened. redqueen Feb 2012 #21
Your post reminded me of a speech Lisa D Feb 2012 #28
As time goes on, we get more and more invisible. It's weird. Warpy Feb 2012 #13
you are active in the cooking and baking group OKNancy Feb 2012 #16
Not when THEY get sick HockeyMom Feb 2012 #17
When you're young, it's so easy to rely on your looks Matariki Feb 2012 #18
Well, I don't think it as easy as all that OKNancy Feb 2012 #19
ie - you and the author of the blog *aren't* invisible. Matariki Feb 2012 #20
This is why I went on such a tear about Miss Representation. redqueen Feb 2012 #22
Oh, and I also wanted to share this here, as it is related. redqueen Feb 2012 #23
that's pretty much on the same topic OKNancy Feb 2012 #24
I like my invisibility too The empressof all Feb 2012 #25
Well, minus the menopause stuff, yeah :) redqueen Feb 2012 #26
Speaking of menopause OKNancy Feb 2012 #27
I got to go through it twice Irishonly Feb 2012 #30
I don't mind being invisible most of the time Irishonly Feb 2012 #29
If I dress like a tart I can still attract attention, but I prefer kestrel91316 Feb 2012 #31

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
1. I'm 53 and for the most part I don't feel bad about it at all
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
Feb 2012

Sometimes it is good to be invisible. I can make myself invisible when I choose, don't do your hair, or do your makeup and dress in your dumpy old lady clothes. But I can still turn heads when I want. It's funny, because when I was younger, I always though of my self as an old man magnet. But I'm finding that lately it is younger men approaching me. I don't consider myself a stunning beauty.

I guess I think it is more about how we present ourselves than an issue with aging.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
2. Yes, and NO
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:06 PM
Feb 2012

When you tiny and petite some things never change. Poor little woman who needs HELP. Pats on the head like you are 10 years old. Never taken seriously, whether you are 30 or 60.

all american girl

(1,788 posts)
5. I know how you feel
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:34 PM
Feb 2012

I'm all 5'2" on a good day. I'm now 45 and I still have people, still treat me like I'm incapable of doing things, generally revolves around lifting things. Believe me, I have always been able to hold my own. When I was younger, I will admit, I would use it to my advantage at times

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
8. "Is your Mommy home?"
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:47 PM
Feb 2012

I AM the Mommy. I got that all the time whether on the phone, or worse, at the door. It does have it's pluses. When there was a neighborhood abductor, I went to the bus stop dressed in sweats and a ponytail. The guy came around asking the kids if they wanted a ride to school. I sat by the tree and he didn't notice me. When I got up and confronted him, he beat the hell out of there like he was on fire. The kids thought that was very funny that I could pose as a pre-teen in my 30s.

Being small DOES has it's advantages, as I am sure you know.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
3. For me it was like some power had been taken away from me
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:10 PM
Feb 2012

Silly I know, but that is how I feel.

Now, don't get me wrong. I actually kind of enjoy this phase of my life. There are many positives as well.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
11. that's exactly how I've felt
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:58 PM
Feb 2012

And people resent you for the power you have when you're young, but you didn't ask for it (nor typically know how to deploy it). Yet you didn't ask to be powerless in that respect when you got older.

I'd have traded it all for a sense of interpersonal recognition that just felt stable, respectful, and balanced, not being treated like I was prey to be hunted when I was younger or invisible and worthless as I get older.

But I do like some of the invisibility now, as you say.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
4. I am 63 and a bit older than you
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:31 PM
Feb 2012

Again, I think this is more because of my size than age. I have had OLD MEN (70s & 80s) offer to carry my groceries!!! A young sexy chick I am not. Why me? While I find that somewhat amusing given that I work LIFTING disabled children and adults, I find myself feeling sorry for these men. I guess they don't quite get it. I could be helping THEM. I have shoveled snow in my driveway and men will stop and offer to help me. My daughter has said many times, "Why don't they offer to help ME?" She is young, big, and strong looking. I guess I look helpless.

Once going into a bagel store, I held the door open for a young man (30s) carrying a load of coffees and bagels. I couldn't believe his reaction to this. He couldn't stop thanking me. What in is world was the big deal? I am too fragile to hold a door open?????? Or women, especially an old woman, can't do this for a younger man?

Men, cannot figure them out; whether they are 35 or 85.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
6. it's embarrassing to admit that some days this prospect is terrifying
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:35 PM
Feb 2012

I've always said, "women age in dog years." Men 15 years my senior think nothing of dating women younger than me, and some seem to act like I should feel privileged for their attention. What a cruel social hoax, that the very maturity and wisdom age brings for us are precisely what are shamed as we age.

Maybe the worst is that I blame myself for not overcoming the fear. It's like we're not supposed to talk about it, that if we point out that our interpersonal lives seem to have been defined in many respects by our level of attractiveness to males, we're the shallow ones, not society at large. I look back now and realize how much how I was treated, how hard I had to work in the academy, had to do with being a blonde "babe" as the OP describes--I think the resentment of other women hurt the most (and still hurts--I seem to get more resentment now for being an attractive woman in my 40s than I did when I modeled as a teenager.) And now, as the other poster noted, I'm at that age where I can work hard at it and still get lots of attention (and a lot from younger men--that's a weird one these days), or not do anything and become temporarily invisible.

Except it will become the norm. What feels like my personal choice to be ignored in the grocery store today (an option women don't have at 20 when they are stalked everywhere they go) won't be optional in the not-too-distant future. I wish it didn't matter, but it's a crutch, and I'm so scared that I'm going to end up a lonely bag lady and that the one social safety net I could fall back on--my looks--won't be there anymore. Yes, people can say, you're so shallow--there's so much more to you than that. Yep, right. But my family members have trust funds--I don't. We live in a male dominated society where youthful appearance is most valued in women, and it's financially terrifying to think you'll be discarded like that. It's disgusting, but it's not my fault for acknowledging the reality.

I think finding support among other women is the most important thing. So I really appreciate this post. It's something that's socially shamed. I try to prepare my daughters for it, too, and while it's been upsetting to see my brilliant near adult daughter start to experience the paparazzi-like stalking by assholes who just think she's some blonde they want to f**k, I'm determined that they'll be much better prepared to handle it. I don't resent beautiful young women. I was one. They have my maternal concern and sympathy, because 1) they're harassed everywhere they go; 2) people resent them or don't want to take them seriously; and 3) it won't last. I feel protective of them, not hostile.

As the old blues song goes, "If you live, your time will come." And if you're a woman, that prospect is terrifying.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
7. attractive older women are called "handsome"
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:43 PM
Feb 2012

I always thought that was funny.

I'm going to be graceful about the whole thing, like Bea Arthur or the golden girls.
I don't think it's horrible to get facelifts and use botox... but it's not for me. It seems kind of desperate in a way.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
9. hah! yes, it's almost equestrian or something
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:52 PM
Feb 2012

Like you've been to the "haberdashers" and are dismounting a prized horse in full regalia.

Being well-coiffed is the key, I guess, which, yes, takes MONEY.

Class differences are going to show even more on the body as the women who can afford work get it done and the others age normally (or fast, because of so much work and stress.)

I hope to be graceful, with my hair in a bun, and wear long flowing clothes and dot vanilla extract and patchouli on my wrists--you know, that "J. Jill" aging poet look, but from a second-hand store, since their prices are ridiculous.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
15. that's funny, because I used to say I could wait to get old and be eccentric
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:24 PM
Feb 2012

Background: I just retired. I owned a traditional dance studio for 35 years. We taught ballet, tap, jazz.. later on added hip hop, but I was kind of snobbish about that..lol. Never into competitions.
In my younger days I did go to conventions. I went to one in Dallas. I was with a group of people.
We approached an elevator with another group led by another teacher who I recognized. Her name was Phi Delta Neal.
She called the people "daaawling", had on a cape, a beret and had a cigarette holder.

Later and all through the many years that I taught, I said to others I wanted to be like that.
At my retirement party one of my student's mother made me a bright gold and red shawl, and gave me a cigarette holder.
She said she couldn't find a beret anywhere. LOL
As an aside: her brother-in-law posts on DU.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
10. Honestly I feel MORE empowered as a older women
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:57 PM
Feb 2012

Perhaps one difference is that I work in the educational field where the feeling is that with age comes wisdom. Life experiences so to speak. I don't need to quote from a college textbook, I LIVED it. When I went back to college in my 50s, not one single professor ever told me to sit down, even when they didn't agree with me, because I could bring real life experience to what they were teaching about historical events.

The same was true working in a classroom. I have been all over the world. I don't need a globe to see where a certain place is. I raised special needs kids myself and have worked with this population a long time. I have never felt discriminated against in the educational field because of my age. If anything, it has been a PLUS, even in my 50s and 60s. Business is different. They want sexy young things to look at.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
12. actually, do you 40-50-somethings seem to elicit new male resentment?
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:10 PM
Feb 2012

I don't mean that you _cause_ it.

But I've been meaning to ask and this seems as good a forum as any.

I've noticed lately a new type of hostility coming from some older men. I think these are the guys who didn't feel that they were very successful with women, but now that they're older, they seem to relish the opportunity to rub my face in ageism/sexism.

I note this because, I still get asked out a lot, so I think if they didn't find me attractive, they wouldn't be putting me down. They'd just truly ignore me as an invisible older woman.

However, it's not the put-down I used to get as a younger women--the "lighten up honey" or "you stuck up bitch" sort of thing by guys who felt rejected.

It's an anger on a different level. It's really quite weird. It's happened a few times in the past year--guys reminding me of my age, suggesting I'm older than I am, which is mid-40s. (I'd believe I might look older than that, except I'm hit on by enough younger guys to think that's not really the case.) But what matters isn't how old I look-- it's just that these guys seem to go out of their way to put me down.

Any of you notice this from men now that you're in your 40s and 50s? I was prepared for invisibility, but not for outright hostility.



redqueen

(115,103 posts)
21. That's always happened.
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 01:36 PM
Feb 2012

It's one of the first attacks misogynists will use to put you down, because as demonstrated so well by the OP and some of the comments, women's "power" (ugh) is determined by society to come from our looks and youth. So naturally it's one of the most frequent attacks used against women, anytime it's possible. And by 'anytime it's possible' I don't mean when women are older, or when men have a chance to be insulting... I mean that attacks on appearance, sexuality, and desirability are used against women of all ages.

Lisa D

(1,532 posts)
28. Your post reminded me of a speech
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 06:52 PM
Feb 2012

Last edited Thu Feb 16, 2012, 04:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Frances McDormand gave in the movie Something's Gotta Give. Her character, Zoe, is a womens' studies professor at a university and she's fascinated that 63 year old Jack Nicholson was dating her 20-something niece, Marin, rather than a woman like Erica, an interesting, successful woman nearer his own age.

Zoe: "This is really fascinating, what's going on at this table. Let's take you and Erica. You've been around the block a few times. What are you, around 60? 63. Fantastic! Never married, which as we know, if you were a woman, would be a curse. You'd be an old maid, a spinster. Blah, blah, blah. So instead of pitying you, they write an article about you. Celebrate your never marrying. You’re elusive and ungettable, a real catch.
Then, there’s my gorgeous sister here. Look at her. She is so accomplished. Most successful female playwright since who? Lillian Hellmann? She’s over 50, divorced, and she sits in night after night after night because available guys her age want something—forgive me, they want somebody that looks like Marin. The over-50 dating scene is geared towards men leaving older women out. And as a result, the women become more and more productive and therefore, more and more interesting. Which, in turn, makes them even less desirable because as we all know, men— especially older men— are threatened and afraid of productive, interesting women. It is just so clear! Single older women as a demographic are about as fucked a group as can ever exist."

Maybe the anger and hostility from men that you talked about in your post is born of fear, because they're threatened by the power of older women.

Thoughts?

Warpy

(111,271 posts)
13. As time goes on, we get more and more invisible. It's weird.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:12 PM
Feb 2012

It's especially weird because I'm as easy to ignore as a boil on the butt. Most of the time I accept it and drift on past, secure in the knowledge it doesn't matter if it's a good hair day or bad one because I simply don't register on most folks' radar.

I do have a social life these days, it's just online. And that's OK, I'm an introvert and it suits me fine. When I get fatigued, I just turn the thing off and recharge my batteries.

However, I know too many married women who have become invisible to their husbands. That's really got to hurt.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
16. you are active in the cooking and baking group
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:25 PM
Feb 2012

right? If I'm thinking correctly, you sure do have some gifts in that area.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
17. Not when THEY get sick
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:41 PM
Feb 2012

Wife take care of them, or spend money to pay a nurse to take of them. Don't think they will want and appreciate the wife then? Been there, done that.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
18. When you're young, it's so easy to rely on your looks
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 09:39 AM
Feb 2012

and not ever realize that's what's happening.

Like actually believe that all those guys are hanging on to your every word because you are really, really brilliant and fascinating. If you fall for that easy attention and fail to develop real qualities of merit, well, you eventually end up "invisible".

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
19. Well, I don't think it as easy as all that
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 09:58 AM
Feb 2012

I feel that I have developed "qualities of merit". I ran a hugely successful business for 35 years. I am pretty well-known in my community and if my ex students are any indication, well-loved.
The author of the blog I posted is certainly a person who has "qualities of merit". Read her biography.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
22. This is why I went on such a tear about Miss Representation.
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 01:39 PM
Feb 2012

It is society, helped by the media, that presents women's power as resting in their looks, youth and sexuality.

"I believed that to be sexy as a woman was more valuable than say, winning the Nobel Prize."

Many, many women... far too many... see being sexy as such an important goal. It is because we accept the importance with which it is portrayed, by the media and by each other.

This sets women up for so many problems, and I'm so ready for women to put an end to it.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
23. Oh, and I also wanted to share this here, as it is related.
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 01:44 PM
Feb 2012

I posted it in the Feminists group as well, but for those who don't visit there or missed it:

http://www.finslippy.com/blog/on-being-an-object-and-then-not-being-an-object.html

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
24. that's pretty much on the same topic
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 02:26 PM
Feb 2012

I'm not really concerned about being invisible to men. I'm married and husband and I get along fine.
It's like in normal everyday life. You get ignored by women too... and younger relatives at family gatherings.

Oh well, I shouldn't complain too much. I've got it pretty good compared to many.

The empressof all

(29,098 posts)
25. I like my invisibility too
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 03:18 PM
Feb 2012

It lifts a burden that as a young woman I chose to try to minimize. I was never comfortable with displaying overt sexuality so always felt comfortable in more modest and genderless clothing.

It was more difficult in the 70s when most clothing was designed for women with far flatter chests than mine. I was relegated to voluminous peasant dress or flannel shirts...Ugggghhh

Thank goodness I find clothing that fits now.


I get a kick though when talking with my daughters friends when they are astounded that I am able to carry on about popular culture, like the same music and that I can even teach them a thing or two about current trends.

Just because I'm old....doesn't mean I'm not current minded. I was born in the 50's ...but I don't live there anymore for cripes sake.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
26. Well, minus the menopause stuff, yeah :)
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 03:31 PM
Feb 2012

I found the rest of the piece in the OP very enlightening, funny and poignant. Thanks for sharing it.

And it's our right as human beings to complain. I hate the negative connotation to complaining... it's part of sharing. Sharing our frustrations eases our burden, I think. Of course moderation in all things, but I don't like that it's considered bad to complain as a general rule. It's part of being human.

I'm babbling, sorry.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
27. Speaking of menopause
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 04:59 PM
Feb 2012

It's not all that bad. I know some people have problems, but not everyone.
I never took anything like hormones and I think I had one hot flash. I also never felt like I was in a bad mood either.
Of course, I never had PMS either. I never noticed it anyway.

LOL - just thought I'd throw in some good words for the younger crowd who worry.

Irishonly

(3,344 posts)
30. I got to go through it twice
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 08:15 PM
Feb 2012

First time was induced by tamoxifen and the second was just a couple of years ago. I couldn't take hormones. I had hot flashes but didn't find myself in bad moods.

Irishonly

(3,344 posts)
29. I don't mind being invisible most of the time
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 08:13 PM
Feb 2012

I am not invisible to the people who matter most and around my neck of the woods I am known as the older hippie woman that feeds hummingbirds and walks her dogs. I am 5'4" and average weight. I have two large German Shepherds. They get more attention than I do and I am their proud mama. I bring up the dogs because when I first started walking them I was asked if I could control them a lot. It was a stupid question as I would not be walking them if I couldn't.

I don't notice if I am paid a lot of attention or not. I don't think I have the need anymore. I beat back aggressive breast cancer and it aged me. fighting cancer changed my outlook on life. My family doesn't think I am invisible and that is good enough for me. After the cancer I became disabled. Chemo kills a lot besides cancer and I move more slowly than I would like.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
31. If I dress like a tart I can still attract attention, but I prefer
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 11:44 PM
Feb 2012

to dress comfortably. And when doing so I appear to be completely invisible, even at the butcher counter at the grocery, lol.

Latest Discussions»Alliance Forums»Women's Rights & Issues»Invisible Women