Question for those with multiple dogs

[nadine_mn]

Do you ever walk them separately? We have always walked our dogs together...even whe I had 4 large dogs I walked them together.

We have 2 now.. a GSD (Durango) and a Lab/Chessie mix (Jazz). I have mentioned before that Durango is having some socialization issues...esp when we are walking with Jazz..he gets very reactive when he sees other dogs. He gets so worked up he is uncontrollable and when we first adopted him, he wasn't this way. But each year he is getting progressively more protective of Jazz. I think that is what it is....when she has been out of eyesight (I walk ahead with her while my spouse stays with him) he is a lot calmer. They are both neutered, BTW.

I want to walk him separately...to expose him to dogs again without Jazz around...to slowly get him desensitized again. He always has a muzzle on...he doesn't bite but he does mouth other dogs... so on walks he is muzzled. It is so hard to correct behavior when walking them together because they feed off each other...one will calm down then the other will bark and it starts up again. 99% of the walk will be fine, people passing us have commented on how well behaved they are. The minute Durango sees another dog I have to hang on for dear life. I get him in a sit then a lay and stand on his leash so he has to be in a down while waiting for the dog to pass or for him to calm down. You know how dogs can pick up on your tension...well crap, because of how strong he is, I automatically tighten up on the leash when I see a dog so I don't go flying or worse he gets loose. which of course makes it worse because now he is sensing that tension and reacting to that and the dog stimulus. I usually walk them by myself, but lately the spouse has come with....for exercise and because we are walking in public parks where there are more chances at interactions. I used to walk them mainly in the middle of the night when I didn't have to worry about running across other people walking their dogs. But I can't keep avoidng other dogs... I need to help my GSD get better at this. My husband is not good at the whole training thing so Durango really only listens to me and walks all over my husband, so this is my responsibility to correct.

But...this sounds so silly even as I type this.... I feel guilty leaving Jazz at home. She is 12 so she is slowing down a bit so that's another reason for wanting to take him solo for longer walks then come home and do a shorter walk together.


Whew that was longer than I expected to write...the gist of my question is am I the only one who feels this guilt? Do the dogs really care or is it just my silly human feelings?

[jtuck004]

1. What kind of lead are you using? Either a halter that tightens around the shoulders,

or a gentle leader will help you from having to pull so much, and with the Gentle Leader type you have really good control of the muzzle. And that will take the tension out of your pull, and not get him so ramped up.

Also, when you see another dog, have some treats, and get his attention. Keep it on you as you pass. One, it takes his mind off of combat. YAY, WE GET TO PLAY COMBAT. and two it teaches him that good things happen when other dogs show up. Eventually you will learn to taper off, but at the start have a lot. Sliced hotdogs, about nickel thin, microwaved on a paper plate for 30 seconds to a minute usually work pretty well (cool them off, then put them in a plastic bag). Cheap too.

A web site to look at and learn about getting attention and control in a good way...http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/lessons.html
Worth reading, whether you do it or not. Attention training can go a long way toward handling the challenge your dog has in staying calm.

One thing you might do is ask if you can walk with others periodically. Don't let them get close, just walk in close proximity with another dog, keeping his attention elsewhere. It gets them used to having other dogs around without being reactive.

Don't feel guilty about Jazz, ('course, Jazz would have his own opinion.

They will get used to the routine.

Just thinking out loud....

[TorchTheWitch]

2. You need to start over with the aggressive walker

And the first thing to do is establish to the dog that you're the leader, and you control them and the walk. Durango is behaving this way because he does not accept you as the leader and believes he is, which is why he is the one acting out on walks. He thinks because he believes he's the leader that he has to protect the group from any threats that HE perceives whether they really are or not.

Training by itself is not going to do the trick. He may listen some of the time or even most of the time, but in any instance where he feels that what he should be doing is necessary he isn't going to listen to you because he thinks that HE is the leader and the one to whom the protection responsibility falls.

Leader dogs get to do everything first. They go through doorways first, they walk in front of everyone else, they eat before anyone else, they go up and down stairs ahead of anyone that is with them, etc. Leaders also decide what is a threat and are first to make aggressive overtures to anyone or anything they see as a threat whether you do or not.

The first thing that's needed here is to reestablish the proper relationship between you, the other humans in the home and Durango. The good thing is that old dogs CAN learn new tricks. He'll be puzzled as hell when you first start establishing who is the boss, but mostly he'll likely be relieved... most dogs don't WANT to be leaders. Being the leader means having all the responsibility and making all the hard decisions, and like a child what child wants that? I think it helps a lot to figure out how to be the leader with a dog if you consider that it's not really so different than establishing leadership/parenting over the children. As we all know, good parenting means not just loving your kids but raising them... the parents make the important decisions, establish and reinforce boundaries, establish ways to getting through to the kids who the parent roles belong to, eeking out appropriate punishments for bad behavior, etc. If you're a parent, this should make a lot more sense to you than it did to me who has never been a parent nor even a quasi-parent as an older sibling. It did help me a whole lot to recall how my own parents did it since I was blessed with two really great parents and then transferring that into rearing a dog with how dogs think.

First comes learning though... learning how to be the dog's "parent" (leader) and how they accept or don't accept that role. Then comes the training... how to teach them what you want while out walking and what behavior is not acceptable and how to correct the bad behavior.

You also need the proper equipment to be better able to both control and correct the dog. There are various kinds of collars and leads for help in controlling and teaching the dog you'll need to learn about and you might find that you have to try a few different ones to find what works best for you and the dog. Having large breed aggressive prone dogs I've found that what works best for me is a basic prong collar that he only wears when on the leash. Basically, you need something that helps physically control the dog as well as a device that can be used to correct bad behavior. That said, you need to control the head... where the head goes the body follows. With a large breed dog that is pound for pound FAR stronger than a human what equipment you use is important. Halters do NOT control a dog physically unless they are small dogs and do NOT provide a way to give the dog corrections. Halters were designed to allow the DOG to lead in specific situations where they are the ones that must such as sniffer dogs and dogs that lead disabled people. They give FAR less physical control and aren't meant to give control but to give a necessary LACK of control.

Leerburg is a very excellent website for dog training and not only sells various equipment that is hard to find elsewhere shows you how to use it properly. They also have TONS of free information at the site though they have their own various training videos if you're interested in them. I would recommend reading there first with the whole understanding and establishing leadership with a dog that pretty much starts here...
http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm

You CAN fix this issue but it's going to take time and a lot of consistent work. It also has to be something that everyone in the family is on the same page about. Luckily, being the only "family" with my dog I never had to deal with that and once making up my mind what formula to follow I didn't have to worry about anyone else sabotaging what I was doing or even disagreeing with either the philosophy or the methods. How you decide to go about fixing the problem means that everyone else in your family has to be in agreement about and share in the work.

[nadine_mn]

3. You are so right - I realized that last night

I took them both for a walk last night and I made the Durango sit and wait to be released before everything - walking out the door, getting into the car, getting out of the car etc. Also making sure he never walked ahead. It's a lot of work - too much to try to do with both dogs, so I am going to have to walk him separately.


My husband is gone for the week, so I have a chance for one on one time without sabotage to start laying the groundwork again.

I do use a prong collar only for walks - it's hard to do the proper correction without affecting the other dog (she ends up getting corrected too) so another reason for solo walking.

I know all about being the alpha - and I have always tried to be it with our pack - my husband has always been the omega - he has always been ranked on the bottom - none of our dogs listened to him, he is inconsistent and doesn't follow through. It was fine when we had more relaxed dogs but now with a GSD - things need to change.

I got lazy - our eldest dog (who has since passed away) was the alpha in the house and in public. She ruled and taught the other dogs (and cat) how to behave. She kept them in line constantly. I need to take back the alpha role and role of protector.


Thanks so much for the well thought out and helpful advice. You have reconfirmed what I have already known in my gut but been reluctant to face. The good news is that Durango is a GSD - he is smart and eager to learn - and I am comfortable being the leader. The hard part is consistency and figuring out how to also make sure my husband is on board.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. that's why GSD's make such great police dogs

They're so smart and so eager to learn and want to do what makes their owner happy with them - it isn't just their physicality.

Being a working breed it might help if you get Durango a doggie backpack or even just a reflector vest so he feels he's doing some important duty when out walking. It might even help if you write something on it like "On Duty" or "In Training" or something like that so people will tend to stay away believing he's busy doing something important. Eventually you want him to face distractions, but in the beginning and maybe for awhile it will be easier for both you and him if you don't have to be bugged by other people or their dogs or their kids. That was the biggest obstacle I had with Yoshi out walking during the day time since there were always people that wanted to stop and chat, kids that wanted to pet him, etc., etc. Mostly I just find it annoying since I want to be able to relax and enjoy walking with my dog - it's our special time together where I tell him all my problems and we solve all the issues of the world and discover all the mysteries of the universe (LOL!), and I just don't like having our special time interrupted.

I think it's pretty definite that the other dog is too much of a distraction for Durango and walks should be with just him until he gets to a point where he can be trusted to behave properly. Eventually you can probably walk them both together again as long as the other dog and Durango can do the same pace. If the other dog has to go slow, maybe then you can do some walks with both and some with just Durango so he gets to go at a faster more comfortable pace for him and gets the exercise he needs but at other times still gets to do a "family" walk. I've never had more than one dog at a time, so I've never had to really think about walking them together or separately or why for either or. I can see how it makes things a lot more complicated.

If I only had a dollar for every time I'd get frustrated with some issue or was bothered by life problems or wasn't feeling well or too tired or something where I just fell off the ball on consistency I'd be rich. We're human and have other things to do in life besides being the dog's leader 24/7. Leader dogs at least have that much easier since it's their only job. Us humans get bogged down with human stuff, so we make mistakes sometimes. Just yesterday I had a whopper of a sinus headache and just couldn't be arsed to correct Yoshi for something he was doing that I didn't want him doing. I know he needed correcting, but I just couldn't deal with it pasted to the sofa feeling so crappy. Naughty beast seems to take advantage of every time I'm down and out to make mischief.

You'll get it worked out. You already know what you need to do, and that's half the battle. The rest is just applying it.

[nadine_mn]

6. Well we had our first solo walk today!

I had to laugh at some of what you wrote - Durango has a little vest he wears (to hold my keys, poop bags and a side mesh pocket so he can carry his own poop) and he loves it. He feels so special. It was so hot today, I left it at home.

And I was thinking - I need something that says Shepherd in Training! Lol - I know what you mean about how special the time is spent with them and people wanting to touch. Shepherds are so handsome and regal looking, everyone wants to come pet him.

We worked a lot on heeling, some sit and stays and keeping him focused on me. We saw a dog and owner walking towards us, we turned the corner and I made sure to correct him everytime he looked back to see if the dog was nearby.

So after being so brave when seeing other dogs and people, but when he saw a large pink rubber ball on the curb, he kept trying to get behind me and investigate at the same time - he was scared of it!

I had some feelings of guilt when we got home - Jazz was so excited to see us and she sniffed him all over - I know she wanted to go with. Our walk was long and hot - so it would have been tough on her. But I will take the two on a shorter walk tonight when it is cooler.

All this walking is gonna be good for me too!

[a la izquierda]

4. Gentle leader.

And get a little bag that attaches to your pants, and keep it full of treats. Whenever you see another dog, make yours sit, and feed them treats to get them distracted. Eventually. Your dog will look to you for treats when he sees a stimulus.

We have a dog that HATES cats and the other dog feeds off that and goes crazy. My husband totally desensitized both dogs to not react around cats and dogs. If they do, it's mild and they are quickly calmed in seconds.