FLORIDA: Task Force Backs ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law

[GreenStormCloud]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/florida-task-force-backs-stand-your-ground-law.html?_r=0

A state task force concluded on Friday that Florida’s “stand your ground” law works and should not be overturned, but that the standards for neighborhood watch groups should be looked at by the Legislature. A 44-page report released by Gov. Rick Scott’s office said Florida residents had a right to feel safe and secure and had a fundamental right to defend themselves from attack. Most of the recommendations in the report had already been made public. The parents of Trayvon Martin, a teenager who was shot and killed a year ago by a neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, had asked the task force to change the 2005 law to make it harder for someone who starts a fight to use a self-defense argument. Mr. Zimmerman claims he was acting in self-defense in the confrontation with Mr. Martin, which occurred as the teenager was walking back to a home in Sanford after going to a convenience store. Mr. Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder. The task force recommended that the role of neighborhood watch participants should be limited to observing, not pursuing, confronting or provoking potential suspects.

(Complete article was just the above paragraph.)

Looks like Florida will be keeping the SYG law.

[darkangel218]

1. Good. People have the right to defend themselves.

What Zimm did was not SYG, was unjustified, premeditated murder IMO. He can try to invoke SYG but is not gonna work. Zimm is a racist pos who deserves life in prison.

[GreenStormCloud]

5. He is not claiming SYG.

He is claiming that Martin knocked him flat on his back and was beating his head against the sidewalk. He is claiming conventional self-defense.

[darkangel218]

7. Zimmy will do life in prison, if not worse. No one is going to.buy his nonsense. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

16. Maybe yes, maybe no. But he still isn't claiming SYG. N/T

[Bjorn Against]

40. I will believe that when they cancel his April 22nd Stand Your Ground hearing

[Eleanors38]

44. His atty will go through the motiions of SYG, but his plea is SD.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. In fariness...

based on the existence of SYG in that state, Wolfinger, the DA on this case, declined to file charges/arrest Zimmerman initially, citing insufficient evidence, even though the investigating officers recommended he be arrested/charged.

(I still want to see phone records to see if Zimmerman's dad and Wolfinger spoke that evening, but that is neither here nor there)

That case should have at least gone to a grand jury, automatically. SYG discouraged that. So something needs more fine tuning here.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. In Texas, all homicide cases have to go before a grand jury.

Here, all SYG does is remove the requirement to retreat. Some fine tuning of their SYG law does appear to be needed.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Same here in WA.

We don't have a duty to retreat, but we don't have SYG either, so that means a high likelihood of grand jury.

What we don't have that I wish we DID have, is civil immunity in any case of self defense where no crime was committed.

[Eleanors38]

45. Florida should adopt the Texas requirement.

[Bjorn Against]

39. Then why does he have a Stand Your Ground hearing scheduled for April 22nd?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-02-14/news/os-george-zimmerman-scheduling-conference-20130214_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-judge-rules

[GreenStormCloud]

47. See post #44. N/T

[upaloopa]

2. Well there will be more murders going unpunished.

Dead men can't testify. Gunners by nature live in fear. That's why they feel the need to carry guns. That puts citizens at risk of some fearful gun nut shooting them and claiming self defense.

[darkangel218]

4. I dont live in fear. nt

[jmg257]

6. Do you carry?

[darkangel218]

8. I have the permit but i dont normally carry. I keep my weapons at home. nt

[jmg257]

11. Curious - since the poster said 'need to carry', maybe 'living in fear' didn't refer to you.

Apparently not.

[darkangel218]

12. He calls any gun owner a gunner.

And claims we live in fear. It's not the first time I see his/her rhetoric.

[jmg257]

15. Ahh got ya - so you just like guns. No biggie. nt

[darkangel218]

17. As a matter of fact yes i do. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I carry.

I don't seek confrontation, but I go where I need to go, and where I desire to go, when I damn well feel like it, and without fear at all.

[jmg257]

26. Are you without fear because you carry? Do you carry out of fear? nt

[AtheistCrusader]

27. I carry as a contingency plan.

I have a right to go and do and be, wherever, whenever, in public spaces. There are places, and times that are statistically more likely to contain people that might initiate force against me.

Rather than worry about when and where is 'safe' to go, I carry contingency plans. First of which is my cell phone, for 911. Having a firearm on me is the last level of escalation, the highest possible level of contingency, in case shit.

[jmg257]

28. Curious...Do you think you would go to such 'unsafe' places if you weren't carrying? IF

you couldn't enact your contigency plans, would you still go wherever whenever you wanted to?

[AtheistCrusader]

30. I would not.

For instance, I would not escort my 4 year old son through the courtyard to the south of the Seattle Municipal Courthouse if I was not carrying. I had need of passing though that area, but without any contingency plans at all, I would have diverted widely around that area to get to the Admin building on our journey.

Such contingencies satisfy risk/reward balance. Allow a greater level of independence. Same for various forms of training, like in depth first aid certification, things like that. I might not go charging off into a national forest for 3 days with my kid, without that training, because the risk of injury that I couldn't reasonably repair long enough to reach competent medical facilities would lead me to judge that a bad bet, and abstain.

Everything is a cost, a balance of risk versus reward, if you think about it. If you judge the balance incorrectly, you can certainly still go, and do, and experience, but in the situation of 'in case shit', if you didn't prepare, it just puts you that much further behind the curve in dealing with it.

[jmg257]

34. Thanks for the responses. I have learned to not think one's own experiences

are the same as everyone else's, and was curious to get more insight into others experiences and thoughts.

Cheers.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. And above, where I say "Allow a greater level of independence."

that is in reference to response time. I am quite confident that a police officer would respond pretty quickly if something happened, say, in the courtyard by Jackson St., I have great faith in the protective qualities of our law enforcement. However, by independence, I mean covering the reasonable gap between something going wrong, and the time it takes for LEO, or EMS to respond to the problem.

Being able to call for assistance is fantastic, but you have to weather the interregnum as an individual, while the social mechanism gathers itself and responds.

[GreenStormCloud]

14. Dead men can testify. It is called forensics.

You can't simply claim self-defense and get off. The evidence has to support the claim. Part of the evidence is the history of the dead guy. If the dead guy is an upstanding model-of-the-community type person then the self-defense story will not be believed and the police will go over everything in exacting detail. However, if you are the law-abiding person, and the dead guy has a violent criminal record with a dozen arrests for violence and a few convictions for felony violence, then that will support your story.

There is a lot else that goes into it too.

Remember, if you are trying to disguise a murder to look like self-defense, you are an amateur and the police homicide investigators are professionals at figuring out what really happened. You will make some amateur mistake and they will pounce on it. Of all crimes, murder has the highest clearance rate.

[upaloopa]

35. The history of SYG shows that people were murdered.

You have what I call a gunners paradigm which you see the world through and to you SYG is a good thing. It isn't and if it was we would have had it long ago. It is the right wing political climate we live in that gives this law life along with the resent SCOTUS rulings. Some day we will have reason again after the right wing nuts are silent.

[GreenStormCloud]

36. There has been an increase in justifiable homicide, but not in murder.

That is to be expected when people have the right and means to resist violent crime.

[upaloopa]

37. I don't accept that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Your solipsism is your call

But it makes discussion difficult

[holdencaufield]

43. According to "CSI" ...

... a perpetrator doesn't have to worry about forensics if he doesn't leave semen everywhere.

Why is it ALWAYS semen? Who writes those shows?

[spin]

20. I carry and I don't live in fear. ...

Until seven years ago I lived in a fairly dangerous area of Tampa. Store and street robberies were not uncommon. Several of my co-workers and friends who had carry licenses ran into situations where their having a firearm prevented a mugging or a violent attack. Fortunately none had to fire a shot as the fact that they were armed scared off their assailants.

When I retired I moved to a small town in northern Florida. Still I haven't lost all my old habits. I lock the doors to my house and car. I practice situational awareness which simply means that I don't walk around with a cell phone glued to my ear while in public. I still have my snub nosed .38 revolver in my pants pocket.

Several years ago I was out walking a small Boston Terrier on some back streets when a guy with a noticeable limp walked up and tried to panhandle me. I laughed and told him that I didn't even have my wallet with me.

Something about the guy made me suspect that he was after more than a handout. I described him to a local cop who was rooming with us at the time. He told me the individual was a druggie and minor street thug who had just got out of prison for assault and robbery and would likely end up there again. He also mentioned that despite the limp the guy could run like the wind when he was being chased by the police. Two months later he was arrested and I believe that he still is in prison. Violent crime happens even in small towns.

I doubt that I will ever find myself in a situation where I find it necessary to use my handgun to stop an attack that would threaten my health or my life. However I would consider myself as a total fool if I did and I had left my best means of self defense behind in the safe in my home.

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would go through the time and expense to get a carry permit and not carry. A concealed weapons permit is not a badge of honor that you show your friends to impress them.

[jmg257]

22. Likely the normal routines of day to day starts to make concealed carry a nuisance,

and a problem. Banned at work? Going on school grounds or other no-gun locations often enough?

As often happens in life, situations and priorites change. Sometimes perceived needs diminish. Sometimes the constant fear of being a victim is gotten over.

After a while of not worrying about it all so much, one tends to - not worry about it so much. Surprise - things tend to be OK, even when not carrying guns around everywhere.


"I find it difficult to understand why anyone would go through the time and expense to get a carry permit and not carry. A concealed weapons permit is not a badge of honor that you show your friends to impress them. "

[spin]

29. The reality is that most people who are licensed to carry ...

will NEVER face a situation where they are attacked in a manner that threatens their life or their health. Violent crime levels are now at a 40 year low in our nation.

Another factor that reduces the chances that a person with a carry permit will face a violent encounter is that many such people practice situational awareness. Merely being alert to your surroundings is an excellent self defense tactic as a street thug may decide to leave you alone and wait for some fool with a cell phone glued to his ear.

Still there are a few deranged criminals who enjoy hurting or even killing their victims. Often they are armed with a knife or a gun. While such attacks are rare they do happen.

Also women are often targeted by rapists. A rape can ruin a woman's life even if she survives.

When I lived in Tampa several clerks in gas stations and fast food establishments within walking distance of my home were murdered even after they had turned over the contents of their cash register. Any customers in these establishments would face considerable danger as they would be witnesses. Admittedly these incidents were rare but they did happen.

I feel an individual should have a right to chose whatever means of self defense best fits his lifestyle and is legal in the area he lives. Of course this includes taking no measures at all.

Life has taught me that it is wise to be as prepared as possible for any eventuality. I always wear a seatbelt in a car. I have fire alarms and fire extinguishers throughout my home. I have an emergency medical kit in my bathroom. I have a two week supply of non perishable food in my pantry. I have a NOAA weather radio in my bedroom which has been alarming all day as we have some severe storms in my area. Being prepared in such fashion has often paid off.

Since I have been target shooting handguns for over 40 years on a regular basis it is not surprising that I have a concealed weapons permit and carry.

Having said this, I don't feel that everybody should run out and buy a gun for self defense and get a carry permit. Owning a firearm for self defense involves a great deal of responsibility and training. Having a firearm in your home may lead to a tragedy. There is absolutely no doubt of this.

[Eleanors38]

46. Old pop psych saw. I sleep well, and fear only my neighbor's deranged cat.

[safeinOhio]

3. In the mean time, voters in Vermont

want more gun control.


http://www.wcax.com/story/7942843/poll-supports-new-gun-laws
A new WCAX News poll* found Vermont voters favor enacting new state laws that would restrict the sale and ownership of guns.
The one simple question they were asked was: Would you favor or oppose the state passing new legislation to restrict sale or ownership of guns?
Those in favor prevailed by a more than 3 to 2 margin-- 57 percent in favor, 35 percent opposed, 8 percent not sure.

[GreenStormCloud]

9. What does that have to do with Florida SYG?

Perhaps you may wish to start a separate thread about that Vermont poll.

[safeinOhio]

10. It's just plain fun to google dump on

your google dump.

[darkangel218]

18. Vermont and Florida are far far from each other.

Aren't they :p

[gejohnston]

19. in more ways than one

Vermont is bluer and has a higher gun ownership rate. Florida has about the lowest in the South.

[spin]

21. However 897,968 resident Floridians have concealed weapons permits. ...

source: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_active.pdf

[Clames]

23. More than 3 - 2 margin?

Math fail. Not surprising considering the source.

[Bjorn Against]

41. Ummm...57 to 35 is more than a 3 to 2 margin

Before you laugh at someone else's math skills you might want to make sure their math is not correct first.

[Clames]

48. No it isn't.

Before you correct someone you might want to pick up a calculator or a math textbook first. It's close to a 3 - 2 margin but is certainly not more than a 3 - 2 margin.

[Bjorn Against]

49. Yes it is

Last edited Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:12 AM - Edit history (1)

You do realize that when comparing the number of people who support to the number of people who oppose the number of undecideds do not fit into the equation at all don't you?

The poll clearly shows more than 3 people supporting gun control for every 2 that oppose it. If you think that is wrong then show me your math.

[Tempest]

13. Kangaroo court

The panel was made up of Scott picks and some made statements before meeting they had no intention of changing the law.

[Bjorn Against]

38. Wow, the dumbest Governor in the nation says it works that makes me so much more confident

[spin]

50. Most Floridians support "Stand Your Ground" ...

Jul 16, 2012
Fla. poll finds wide support for 'Stand Your Ground'

Nearly two-thirds of Florida voters support the state's 7-year-old "Stand Your Ground" law, but they are closely divided on whether George Zimmerman was justifiably defending himself when he killed Trayvon Martin, a new poll shows.

The survey, conducted by TheMiami Herald, Tampa Bay Times and Bay News 9, found that almost 65% of likely voters believe no changes are necessary to the law, which allows use of deadly force if people believe they are in grave danger. The poll also found that 18% want the law repealed and 16% think it should be modified.

Support is strongest in northern Florida and the Panhandle (71%) and weakest in the southwest (55%), where repeal enjoys its biggest backing (27%).
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/07/fla-poll-finds-wide-support-for-stand-your-ground-/1#.US5KSGend9l

It should also be pointed out that Zimmerman's attorney does not feel the Trayvon Martin shooting qualifies for protection under the stand your ground law. Perhaps he realizes that "stand your ground" is not "pursue and confront."

8/14/12 at 12:05 AM

George Zimmerman’s Lawyer: ‘Stand Your Ground’ Doesn't Apply

By Margaret Hartmann

8/14/12 at 12:05 AM
Comment

George Zimmerman’s Lawyer: ‘Stand Your Ground’ Doesn't Apply

By Margaret Hartmann

The killing of Trayvon Martin provoked a national debate on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, but on Monday George Zimmerman's lawyer, Mark O'Mara, said, "The facts don't seem to support a 'Stand Your Ground' defense." O'Mara now claims that the incident actually is just a basic self-defense case, since Zimmerman didn't have the option to retreat. "People look at 'stand your ground' and immediately think somebody's standing there with deadly force — be it a gun or a weapon — and having the opportunity to back up but not having the need to under the statute," said O'Mara. "I think the evidence in this case suggests that my client was reacting to having his nose broken and reacted to that by screaming out for help." Though, that doesn't mean O'Mara is withdrawing his request for a "Stand Your Ground" hearing.

While previously O’Mara said he'd use the Florida statute to argue for having the murder charges against Zimmerman dropped, the Associated Press reports that he now says that won't be a part of his defense strategy. “I think the facts seem to support that though we have a stand-your-ground immunity hearing, what this really is, is a simple, self-defense immunity hearing,” said O'Mara. The pretrial hearing could lead to the charges against Zimmerman being dismissed immediately by a judge rather than being decided by a jury.
- See more at: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/08/zimmerman-team-stand-your-ground-doesnt-apply.html#sthash.wsLnktiw.dpuf