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ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 11:31 AM Mar 2013

Firearm Legislation and Firearm-Related Fatalities in the United States

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1661390

Main Outcome Measures The outcome measures were state-level firearm-related fatalities per 100 000 individuals per year overall, for suicide, and for homicide. In various models, we controlled for age, sex, race/ethnicity, poverty, unemployment, college education, population density, nonfirearm violence–related deaths, and household firearm ownership.


Conclusions and Relevance A higher number of firearm laws in a state are associated with a lower rate of firearm fatalities in the state, overall and for suicides and homicides individually. As our study could not determine cause-and-effect relationships, further studies are necessary to define the nature of this association.
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Firearm Legislation and Firearm-Related Fatalities in the United States (Original Post) ZombieHorde Mar 2013 OP
Joyce Foundation crap Lurks Often Mar 2013 #1
JAMA is a highly respected peer-review journal. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #2
For some people their peers can be idiots. nt Remmah2 Mar 2013 #3
In this case, peers = scientists. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #5
I work with scientist, they have political agendas like everyone else. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #6
What is wrong with this peer-reviewed document? nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #8
Circular argument. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #9
If your post is meant to be a critique of the document, then I don't understand ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #11
Many of these scientist and doctors don't live in the real world. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #13
"There are scientist who agree with global warming and those that don't" - Really? Starboard Tack Mar 2013 #16
Do you read a broad spectrum of articles/sources or only those that suit your needs? Remmah2 Mar 2013 #21
Maybe you could provide some links to these "scientists" who deny global warming. Starboard Tack Mar 2013 #40
See my post #22. GreenStormCloud Mar 2013 #23
This "study" had already been posted and even other anti-gun... Clames Mar 2013 #4
OK. Show me the info that says this is a bad, peer-reviewed study. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #7
More telling is that it was published in JAMA in the first place. Clames Mar 2013 #33
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #34
Perhaps, but since the funding Lurks Often Mar 2013 #15
Do you suspect JAMA or the reviewers were paid off? ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #19
I think any partisan organization that spends Lurks Often Mar 2013 #20
It may or may not be a bad study sarisataka Mar 2013 #10
"This study shows correlation. More study is needed to prove causation." ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #12
I believe the issue with the CDC sarisataka Mar 2013 #14
A differing viewpoint Lurks Often Mar 2013 #17
A different viewpoint on a different subject. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #18
The point I was trying to make Lurks Often Mar 2013 #29
If the studies are looking at different things, ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #35
They did not control for prior criminal records. GreenStormCloud Mar 2013 #22
"I don't care about suicide." thucythucy Mar 2013 #28
Firearm-related fatalities has little value as a measure of public safety slackmaster Mar 2013 #24
Wow, the strongest legislation states vs the weakest gave only a .4/100,000 difference in homicides? jmg257 Mar 2013 #25
More Guns More Gun Crime -- what else is new? jimmy the one Mar 2013 #26
your title doesn't match the body gejohnston Mar 2013 #27
Here's a quick chart I threw together from the state data in the report... jmg257 Mar 2013 #31
that is pretty much the case gejohnston Mar 2013 #32
my list is honest, your challenge is dishonest jimmy the one Mar 2013 #36
your title implied death rate equals murder rate gejohnston Mar 2013 #37
The subject of the OP is firearm-related FATALITIES which include suicides slackmaster Mar 2013 #30
Hiding in plain sight. beevul Mar 2013 #38
state study & chicago redux jimmy the one Mar 2013 #39
Yeah buddy. Rates. beevul Mar 2013 #41
states firearm death fatality rate study jimmy the one Mar 2013 #42
Hah. beevul Mar 2013 #43
totals, rates, totals, rates, which? jimmy the one Mar 2013 #44
Of course you don't. beevul Mar 2013 #47
Cue the gun advocates to desparage any research in 3-2-1 nonoyes Mar 2013 #45
I appreciate your support of my OP, but that is not very nice. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #46
 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
1. Joyce Foundation crap
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 11:53 AM
Mar 2013

The Joyce Foundation has been funding anti-gun causes for decades.

Pro gun people take Joyce Foundation as a reputable source about as seriously as the anti gun people take the NRA as a reputable source.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
5. In this case, peers = scientists.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:04 PM
Mar 2013

If you feel the study was conducted poorly, perhaps you can explain why, and how it could be improved.

 

Remmah2

(3,291 posts)
9. Circular argument.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:24 PM
Mar 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=113637

There are doctors that are pro choose and those that don't believe in abortion.

There are scientist who agree with global warming and those that don't.

The media reporting this are fish on the line for those supporting the gun grabber agenda.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
11. If your post is meant to be a critique of the document, then I don't understand
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:30 PM
Mar 2013

what you are trying to say.

Views on abortion are based on morality/philosophy.

I am not aware of any peer-reviewed studies in respected journals that say global warming is not true, but perhaps you do and can share.

The media has nothing to do with this study. How they choose to talk about it doesn't make it any more or less accurate.

 

Remmah2

(3,291 posts)
13. Many of these scientist and doctors don't live in the real world.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:37 PM
Mar 2013

The media also picks and chooses what they publish so indeed they are responsible as well.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
16. "There are scientist who agree with global warming and those that don't" - Really?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:57 PM
Mar 2013

Which scientists would they be? I think you just cashed in about 99.9% of your credibility.

 

Remmah2

(3,291 posts)
21. Do you read a broad spectrum of articles/sources or only those that suit your needs?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 02:21 PM
Mar 2013

Keep an open mind sailor. You don't have to agree w/a source but you have to understand the alternate opinions. Read that three time.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
40. Maybe you could provide some links to these "scientists" who deny global warming.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 03:05 PM
Mar 2013

I have a very open mind, especially when it comes to opinions. However, global warming is not an opinion, but a fact. Opinions may differ regarding the causes, but that does not alter the facts.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
4. This "study" had already been posted and even other anti-gun...
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:03 PM
Mar 2013

...researchers have stated the results of this study are practically worthless and should not be taken out of context, which you are already doing


Oh, and peer-reviewed journals doesn't mean bad data doesn't get published. Another topic you should research.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
7. OK. Show me the info that says this is a bad, peer-reviewed study.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:06 PM
Mar 2013

I assume the critique is peer-reviewed.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
33. More telling is that it was published in JAMA in the first place.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:42 PM
Mar 2013

It's a known second-rate journal and they have been hammered in the past for letting horribly flawed studies get published. Not uncommon, in fact a severe majority of "peer-reviewed" garbage is published these days with the pressure to produce anything to keep the flow of grant money coming. Look up Lexapro and JAMA.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
15. Perhaps, but since the funding
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:56 PM
Mar 2013

came from a highly partisan source, the report has no credibility.

Do you really think an anti gun or pro gun organization is going to fund a report on guns without knowing that the report will be favorable to their point of view?

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
20. I think any partisan organization that spends
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 02:09 PM
Mar 2013

hundreds of thousands of dollars on a study is going to expect that study to deliver something that supports their point of view. And the people or group doing the study understand that there will be no more grants from that partisan organization if their study does not reflect the partisan organization's point of view.

I am skeptical of ANY report, be it pro gun, anti gun or some other topic that comes from or is funded by a partisan organization.

sarisataka

(18,821 posts)
10. It may or may not be a bad study
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:26 PM
Mar 2013

but do not overlook the author's own words

our study could not determine cause-and-effect relationships
the legislative strength score, which tallies a single point per law, has not been validated
Neither has the weighted Brady scoring system
we examined only deaths by firearms
we were unable to control for the enforcement of firearm laws
we could not determine if the greater number of laws were the reason for the reduced fatality rate


This study shows correlation. More study is needed to prove causation.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
12. "This study shows correlation. More study is needed to prove causation."
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:31 PM
Mar 2013

I agree, and made sure that claim was in the OP.

sarisataka

(18,821 posts)
14. I believe the issue with the CDC
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:37 PM
Mar 2013

was it appeared that they wanted pro-gun control research and were funding studies to achieve that result.
I have no issue with neutral studies. If a causation can be found and a solution proposed it should be supported by both sides.

This study does appear to look at the data from a neutral stand point and acknowledge its own shortcomings. A good start; more research without bias should follow.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
18. A different viewpoint on a different subject.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 01:34 PM
Mar 2013

The document I posted in the OP does not concern gun bans, it concerns current gun laws in different states.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
29. The point I was trying to make
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:47 PM
Mar 2013

was that with just a little time spent searching, a person can find a lot of reports that support either side of the gun control debate.


I doubt we'll agree on this topic, but it is appreciated that you are willing to discuss this politely.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
35. If the studies are looking at different things,
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 09:47 PM
Mar 2013

then different results should be expected.

I doubt we'll agree on this topic, but it is appreciated that you are willing to discuss this politely.


I have a strong distaste for calling people "gun nut," or insulting their genitalia because of their opinions.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
22. They did not control for prior criminal records.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 02:31 PM
Mar 2013

Nor did they control for the legality of the murder weapon. I don't care about suicide. If I ever decide to kill myself, not having a gun won't make any difference.

There is a simple, fast, easy, study they could do. Select 100,000 people in various states who had a CCW five years ago and track what happened to them in those five years. This would be a police records check which could be done by computer.

Compare them to 100K random citizens and to 100K citizens with clean criminal records.

thucythucy

(8,097 posts)
28. "I don't care about suicide."
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:47 PM
Mar 2013

"If I ever decide to kill myself, not having a gun won't make any difference."

And of course, all public policy should be based on how it impacts YOU personally.

"I don't care about suicide."

That right there speaks volumes about your compassion and sense of empathy.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
25. Wow, the strongest legislation states vs the weakest gave only a .4/100,000 difference in homicides?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:10 PM
Mar 2013

Annual firearm legislative strength scores ranged from 0 (Utah) to 24 (Massachusetts) of 28 possible points...

Compared with the quartile of states with the fewest laws, the quartile with the most laws had a lower firearm suicide rate (absolute rate difference, 6.25 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.63; 95% CI, 0.48-0.83) and a lower firearm homicide rate (absolute rate difference, 0.40 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.60; 95% CI, 0.38-0.95).


And included a couple categories where the homicide rates were actually slightly worse in 'safer states' (those with 'child safety laws' -.32, and 'no guns in public spaces' -.26)??

Only .4 homicides more per 100,000 annually overall...the biggest increase = +.97death/100000 for 'Assault Weapons Ban'; but slightly less in 2 of the 5 categories.

Very interesting.

It seems we need to figure out why people want to kill themselves with guns, as suicides is the main difference in rates.

ETA: rethinking...is .4deaths/100000 considered a significant rate change?

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
26. More Guns More Gun Crime -- what else is new?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:05 PM
Mar 2013

Slackmaster, your map changes color a bit like a chameleon once you only consider firearm related murder, not overall murder.

jmg: Wow, the strongest legislation states vs the weakest gave only a .4/100,000 difference in homicides? ...is .4 deaths/100000 considered a significant rate change?

I'm thinking since the national 'overall' murder rate average for 2010 was 4.8 murders/100k, & the rule of thumb is 66% done by gun, ergo nat avg @ 3.2/100k done by gun; & then 0.4/100k would be 1/8 of that {0.4/3.2} or about 12% less in stricter law states - go with between 10 & 15% less, which would be significant, if my reasoning valid.
And tho JAMA says it accounts for pop density & urbanity, I suspect it might have something to do with it, since less-law states with small populations have less violent crime & murder rates in general (alaska the exception due hi urbanity).

But what's really new? More Guns, More Gun Crime? - that's not new.... though anything with david hemenway's name on it gets more credibility than all the gun guru nuts combined, especially john mary rosh lott.

vpc: State Firearm Death Rates, Ranked by Rate, 2010
Rank State Rate {top ten are PRO GUN states}:
1 progun Alaska 20.28
2 progun Louisiana 19.06
3 progun Montana 16.58
4 progun Alabama 16.36
5 progun Wyoming 16.32
6 progun Mississippi 16.01
7 progun West Virginia 14.73
8 progun Tennessee 14.69
9 progun Nevada 14.63

10 leans gun New Mexico 14.62
11 progun Arizona 14.57
12 Arkansas 14.37 13 Oklahoma 14.34 14 Missouri 14.13 15 South Carolina 14.01
16 Kentucky 12.79 17 Idaho 12.63 18 Georgia 12.62 19 Florida 12.06 20 Oregon 11.95
21 North Carolina 11.78 22 Utah 11.36 23 Vermont 11.19 24 Colorado 11.04
25 Virginia 10.94 26 Indiana 10.93 27 Michigan 10.89 28 Texas 10.79
29 Kansas 10.51
30 Pennsylvania 10.29
>>>>>>>>>>> national average firearm death rate 10.25 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
31 Ohio 9.95
32 Delaware 9.80
33 North Dakota 9.66 34 Maryland 9.32 35 South Dakota 9.21 36 Washington 9.06
37 New Hampshire 8.96 38 Wisconsin 8.81 39 Maine 8.51 40 Nebraska 8.32
41 Illinois 8.29
42 California 7.88
43 Iowa 6.99
44 Minnesota 6.88
45 Connecticut 5.85
46 New York 5.22
47 New Jersey 5.19
48 Rhode Island 4.66
49 Massachusetts 4.12
50 Hawaii 3.31
{SAFEST 'underlined' states are all in JAMA's guncontrol quarter}
http://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart13.htm

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
27. your title doesn't match the body
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
Mar 2013

you imply that those are the murder rates. VPC is actually saying "gun deaths" combining murder and suicide by gun. that shows your title as dishonest. The death rate includes suicides.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRalpha

BTW, Wyoming's murder rate for 2012 is back down to 1.6.
lies, damn lies, and statistics. But then, you favorite historian is now a bartender in CT because no university will touch him.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
31. Here's a quick chart I threw together from the state data in the report...
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:27 PM
Mar 2013

Showing legislation strength ranking vs homicide rate...

RANK STATE RATE
6 Hawaii 0.7
17 Iowa 0.9
20 Maine 1.1
50 Utah 1.1
18 Minn 1.2
18 Oregon 1.3
20 Wyomi 1.3
8 RI 1.5
1 Mass 1.7
13 Wash 1.8
36 Montan 1.8
20 Wisc 1.9
20 CO 2.1
26 Nebrask 2.3
4 Conn 2.5
5 NY 2.7
37 SD 2.7
37 Kansas 2.8
2 NJ 3.0
44 Idaho 3.2
46 Alaska 3.3
46 Kentuc 3.3
13 Virgina 3.4
20 Ohio 3.6
31 Indian 3.8
31 Nevad 3.9
31 Texas 3.9
46 Oklaho 4.0
2 Cali 4.0
37 NM 4.2
12 Penn 4.3
13 NC 4.6
9 IL 4.7
44 Arizon 4.8
11 Delaw 4.8
31 FL 4.8
37 WV 4.8
10 Mich 5.1
26 Georg 5.1
26 Tenn 5.3
37 Ark 5.3
20 SC 5.4
37 Missour 5.5
6 Maryland 6.3
13 Alabam 7.2
31 Miss 7.4
46 Louis 10.1
37 ND na
26 NH na
26 Vermon na

Showing what I don't really know, other then that homicide rates are all over and suicide is a big part of the death rate changes.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
32. that is pretty much the case
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:31 PM
Mar 2013

although I'll be sure to show it to my wife as more evidence that my native Wyoming, inspite of the lack of large cities, is indeed more civilized than her native Florida.

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
36. my list is honest, your challenge is dishonest
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 11:00 AM
Mar 2013

johnston: your title doesn't match the body ... you imply that those are the murder rates. VPC is actually saying "gun deaths" combining murder and suicide by gun. that shows your title as dishonest. The death rate includes suicides.

That you spin it that I implied murder rates is irrelevant & have no bearing on what I actually cited. I clearly noted this at the top of the list I provided:

vpc: State Firearm Death Rates, Ranked by Rate, 2010 Rank State Rate {top ten are PRO GUN states}:
1 progun Alaska 20.28
2 progun Louisiana 19.06.....


How did I imply 'murder rate' by writing 'firearm death rates'? stop twisting facts about johnston.
Furthermore, the title of the OP is something like firearm legislation linked to firearm death rates, so my list is as honest as the day is long. Is why you are on filter - only happened to see this at the library where I log on anonymous, & couldn't let your cheap shot stand.
Just because you can't see the facts before your very eyes & then, despite the list title, try to spindoctor my thread into 'dishonesty', is just more lies - more guns more LIES.

You should redirect your concern, johnston, to slackmaster whose map is of overall murder, & not applicable to the OP which includes, as you said, murder & suicide with gun.

lies, damn lies, and statistics. But then, you favorite historian is now a bartender in CT because no university will touch him.

I lied? according to who? you? haha, can't stop laughing. Typical rightwing tactic, lie & call your opponent a liar, & you supposed to be a democrat? democrats are generally above that type of stuff there, johnston.
.. buh bye! have a nice days!
.. and both john keegan & wm shirer are dead, can't be working anywhere. Chris Rodda's alive tho, fine gal.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
37. your title implied death rate equals murder rate
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 11:56 AM
Mar 2013

death rate including suicides. My counter was quite honest. I said murder rates, I gave murder rates.
Citing VPC or NRA, please.
Nice to know you read historians other than Michael A. Bellesiles.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
30. The subject of the OP is firearm-related FATALITIES which include suicides
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:57 PM
Mar 2013

We're talking past each other as always.

Apples, oranges, carrots, onions.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
38. Hiding in plain sight.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 08:20 PM
Mar 2013

"State level".

Measuring firearm violence within a state, and adding in those places where it generally isn't, in addition to where it generally is, to get a "rate". One that dilutes and misleads. Measure Chicago versus most other comparable cities instead, and it paints a starkly different picture, which, of course, is why that wasn't done.

As we've all heard from them, "just one is too many" - The gun control side of the issue is keenly focused on firearm fatalities, right up to the point where comparing places with strict gun control versus places without is done. At that point, it becomes more important to add to places like chicago where gun violence is rampant, places like outstate Illinois where it isn't rampant, to paint a picture unrepresentative of reality.

No stats for DC.

Gee, I wonder why.

Like I said, when one distills it down rather than diluting it, and looks at chicago versus most other comparable cities, quite a different picture than the one being painted by the piece linked in the OP begins to emerge.

Cue the "its other states faults" arguments...






jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
39. state study & chicago redux
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 08:30 AM
Mar 2013

beevul: Measuring firearm violence within a state, and adding in those places where it generally isn't, in addition to where it generally is, to get a "rate". One that dilutes and misleads.

pffft, nra does it all the time, grouping pro gun western states with low populations.
The study you refer to grouped states by 'firearm legislation severity', NOT BY GUN VIOLENCE RATES. Which refutes you right there. They then separated the states into quatriles (4 groups, hi to low legislation), & THEN compared average firearm violence. Just because you don't like the results, doesn't mean you can use invalid specious reasoning to debunk it.
.. And when they adjusted for population (per capita), who gets the advantage from those western progun states with weak guncontrol laws & low violent crime rates? your pro gun side that's who (tho not to great extent since they have small populations). So you're really shooting yourself in the foot by your argument, which would benefit progun states moreso than guncontrol states, which are generally more urban which tend to higher violent crime rates - but surprise surprise, add in guns & watch what happens.

beevul: Measure Chicago versus most other comparable cities instead, and it paints a starkly different picture..

2006 Crime rates per 100,000 People (rape not avail for chi):
....PROGUN Memphis, TN ........ Chicago, IL
Murder: ...........21.6 ...............16.4 <<<<< ~20 in 2012
Robbery: .........780.1 ..............555.1
Aggr Asslt: .....1125.2 ..............610.4
Burglary:....... 2416.2 ..............845.2
Larceny: ........4955.1 .............2930.1
Auto Theft: ......986.9 ..............763.8

http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=memphis&s1=TN&c2=chicago&s2=IL

beevul: At that point, it becomes more important to add to places like chicago where gun violence is rampant...

Well, to belabor your point, you are saying that since chicago disabled it's handgun ban in 2010 & allowed people to own more guns & foids galore, gun violence is rampant?
.. on the other hand, last year violent crime in chicago declined about 9%, and since the mid 90's chicagos murder totals have gone from about 950 down to 420 & then last year 2012 to ~520. So a decline from near 1,000 murders per year down to 500 is a 50% decline, ALL THE WHILE UNDER ITS HANDGUN BAN.

beevul: No stats for DC.>>>> DC is a city, not a state. DC has 10,000 people per sq-mile, the closest state is Rhode Island with ~1,000, the farthest is alaska with 1, national avg for states maybe 100 - 200. To include DC would be doing what you're complaining about in your opening premise.

beevull: when one distills it down rather than diluting it, and looks at chicago versus most other comparable cities, quite a different picture than the one being painted by the piece linked in the OP begins to emerge.

Ignoring the stink in your own backyard? murder rates,2011:
PROGUN MISSOURI, kansas city.. 23.4
PROGUN GEORGIA (atlanta):......... 20.7
PROGUN new orleans murder rate:.. 57.6
PROGUN Miami florida.............. 16.8
PROGUN St Louis............................ 35.3
............Chicago murder rate:.......... 15.9 <<< 2012 ~20

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
41. Yeah buddy. Rates.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:47 AM
Mar 2013

RATES.

I live near a small town we'll just call bumfuck, for sake of discussion.

"Bumfuck" (though thats not its real name) has a real, factual and true population of 34 people.


If someone commits suicide in "Bumfuck" with a gun, thats 1 in 34.


Thats a RATE of 2941 per 100k. If one were to look ONLY at that rate, it would seem bumfuck has a suicide epidemic of monumental proportions on their hands, wouldn't it? Gee, is there something in their water or what?

What the "rate" bunch do, is to note places like Montana and other states/places with a small population, and then use a rate based on that small population.

On the other side of the coin, a larger population example of say 20 million, with the same rate, would have 1188200 hypothetical suicides. For sake of discussion, well call it "megaville".

So say this hypothetical city of megaville DOES have a gun suicide epidemic. Say 100000 commit suicide with guns. Thats 200 per 100k. A rate roughly 14.5 times Roughly lower that Bumfuck. Without looking at the exact numbers, it sure looks like bumfuck has a huge problem on their hands, compared to megaville, doesnt it?



Of course, its misleading beyond the pale, but then, coming from the same crowd that more or less invented "the choice of criminals and gangbangers", and "a danger to airliners", is anyone really going to be all that surprised by this?

What really IS the surprise in all of this, is that you seem to actually, really, and truly believe, that everyone is so so dumb as a post, not to see whats actually being said here, and NOT being said here. And that you think this particular song and dance hasn't been had before.

Yeah, you go ahead and keep it up. The rest of us with any sensibility at all know that a city of 100k with 15.9 gun homicides has a FAR smaller problem than a city like chicago with a rate of 15.9 per 100k.

And we'll feel quite free to keep pointing it out.

Oh, and 520, last time I checked, is higher than 420. While its handgun ban is still effectively in effect.

I'm just dieing to hear your explanation for that.





jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
42. states firearm death fatality rate study
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 08:10 AM
Mar 2013

beevul: What the "rate" bunch do, is to note places like Montana and other states/places with a small population, and then use a rate based on that small population.

Are you afraid of the truth? states which are pro gun tend to have higher gundeath rates, even when they are lesser populated. If your challenge had merit, looking at gundeaths from other years would show those 7 or 8 states with less gundeaths per capita, but they don't. The list is a list of what it says it is, firearm fatalities per capita.

{re 1 suicide of 34 residents in BF} Thats a RATE of 2941 per 100k. If one were to look ONLY at that rate, it would seem bumf-- has a suicide epidemic monumental proportions on their hands, wouldn't it? On the other side of the coin, a larger population example of say 20 million, with the same rate, would have 1188200 hypothetical suicides. For sake of discussion, well call it "megaville".

This is a poor example, since the bumf--- & megaville's population would be combined for the study & bumf's 34 would be negligible & so would the additional 1 bumf suicide, so the 200 per 100k rate from megaville would be essentially the same for both combined areas.
No single pro gun state has this wide disparity in population - indeed the smallest state wyoming I believe, has about 600,000 people which would be a couple percent that of california, tho there generally isn't much to be gained by comparing calif with wyoming.

Oh, and 520, last time I checked, is higher than 420. While its handgun ban is still effectively in effect. I'm just dieing to hear your explanation for that.

Who said 520 wasn't higher than 420? Chicago's handgun ban has not been in effect for going on 3 years now, the handgun ban was lifted & now you blame the murder increase still on the gun ban?

~dec 2012 .. more than 1 in 10 of the state's nearly 13 million residents hold a Firearm Owner's Identification Card, the state-issued permit required to purchase or possess a firearm. That number is growing rapidly. In 2012.. record 338,614 applications — 5.3% increase over the number of applications filed the previous year, and a 50% jump since 2006.
Moreover, the number of people who actually hold FOID cards has increased an average of about 72,000 a year since 2009, according to state police data. Seven separate months in 2012 saw record numbers of applications.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-30/news/ct-met-concealed-carry-20130130_1_law-enforcement-officers-legal-guns-gun-owners

I guess this is pro gun, but it shows that guns are legal to own now: How Are Those Gun Laws in Chicago Working? Well, what do the gun laws in Chicago look like? City's gun law has little firepower: Marty Zamora will be the first to tell you he's a gun guy—he owns seven handguns and four rifles. He likes to shoot at a suburban range for sport, but he says that's not the main reason he has them. Zamora says he's carefully complied with state regulations, which require him to register for a Firearm Owner's Identification Card {FOID} and to undergo background checks each time he buys a gun. He's taken training classes, and so have his wife and son.
But none of Zamora's firearms are registered with the Chicago Police Dept, though they're supposed to be under the city's gun law. He says he doesn't trust the city's motives. "Why should I go register with the city and later have a guy knock at my door saying, 'Hey, can we see your gun?'"
Of 116,173 Chicagoans who have FOID cards, only 2.7% have registered with the city.
http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-are-those-gun-laws-in-chicago.html

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
43. Hah.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 10:05 AM
Mar 2013

"Who said 520 wasn't higher than 420? Chicago's handgun ban has not been in effect for going on 3 years now, the handgun ban was lifted & now you blame the murder increase still on the gun ban?"

The handgun ban has not technically been in effect, but it has been effectively in effect until very recently - far more recently than 4 years ago - or did you think chicago was just handing out checks to SAF because they wanted to.

"Are you afraid of the truth? states which are pro gun tend to have higher gundeath rates, even when they are lesser populated. If your challenge had merit, looking at gundeaths from other years would show those 7 or 8 states with less gundeaths per capita, but they don't. The list is a list of what it says it is, firearm fatalities per capita."

Fucking Duh. That was my entire point. This is the reason you guys like to talk about rates, why you use that framing - because if you talk about the problem for what it is, where it is, you lose the argument on its face. Everyone here on either sides knows this, because we've danced this little dance before. Several times. Before you ever joined DU - at least under your current username.

Chicago LEADS the nation in firearm homicides. They have several times, along with DC which *this is my shocked face* doesn't get tabulated in this "study" and which the brady bunch seems to have stopped giving grades, in spite of its "grade A" gun laws. Gee, I wonder why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state


That chicago leads and has led the nation in gun deaths, more than once annually, are facts that are not in dispute. So since they can't be disputed, rather than deal with gun death numbers, like gun controllers regularly do when it comes to incidents, you change the medium to "rates", and point their misleading fingers at states with higher "rates". "Hey, look over there!". How do they get higher "rates"? Well, gee, is it because they have MORE gun homicides? You know, the thing that IS the actual problem? Nope. Its because their number of gun homicides gets diluted into a smaller population, to come up with the rate.

And by the way, where does Vermont fall in there, eh?

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
44. totals, rates, totals, rates, which?
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:10 PM
Mar 2013

beevul: The {chicago} handgun ban has not technically been in effect, but it has been effectively in effect until very recently - far more recently than 4 years ago - or did you think chicago was just handing out checks to SAF because they wanted to.

Have no idea what you're talking about 2ndA foundation payments; thank you very much for conceding that the handgun ban has been technically lifted for almost 3 years now. As far as 'effectively' that remains conjecture until you post something from a reputable source, & not the nra or rightwing blogs.

01/26/12 over a year ago: CHICAGO (CBS) – Significantly more Chicagoans are arming themselves with guns... over the past two years, the city has seen a 16% spike in the number of people holding state Firearm Owner’s Identification Cards.
...At the end of 2010, dept had approved about 1,500 Chicago firearms permits and registered about 2,750 guns. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/01/25/gun-owner-id-cards-soar-in-chicago/

That {last para} was just the 6 months after the handgun ban was lifted in july 2010. Another link I have used in the past reported about 16,000 new chicago guns as of about 2011, & likely about 30,000 by now... that's not a lot for chicago, but you can't make the horse drink guns. If people don't want them, they don't want them.

Chicago LEADS the nation in firearm homicides.They have several times,along with DC

You are guilty of the very crime you complain about, since chicago is the 3rd largest city in america of course it'll tend to have higher murders & gunmurders than most of the other 370 american cities.
.. further, I suspect you saying 'along with DC' is wrong: DC has had perhaps the highest firearm murder rate, but I don't believe it has had the highest firearm murder totals before. I could be wrong, pls provide proof of what you contend or verify what you say is what you actually mean. I found DC highest murder total was 479 in 1991, while chicago had about 900 those years (multiply approx x 2/3 for firearm related murders), which would be far higher than DC. I suspect you are comparing totals to rates - tactics which you are complaining of yourself, ifso pot kettle black.

beevul: This is the reason you guys like to talk about rates, why you use that framing - because if you talk about the problem for what it is, where it is, you lose the argument on its face. Everyone here on either sides knows this, because we've danced this little dance before

I don't understand what you're driving at, & I suspect it's because I also think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
47. Of course you don't.
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 01:30 AM
Mar 2013

beevul: This is the reason you guys like to talk about rates, why you use that framing - because if you talk about the problem for what it is, where it is, you lose the argument on its face. Everyone here on either sides knows this, because we've danced this little dance before

jimmy the one:I don't understand what you're driving at, & I suspect it's because I also think you don't know what you're talking about.

Thre problem - what it is - is gun murders, right? Not the rate. Where it is - is by and large NOT in outstate illinois, but in chicago.

Therefore, if you talk about the problem, for what it is, where it is, you'd be talking about firearm murders, IN chicago.


But you aren't.

"You are guilty of the very crime you complain about, since chicago is the 3rd largest city in america of course it'll tend to have higher murders & gunmurders than most of the other 370 american cities."


I'm guilty? LOL. Thats pretty funny. The pro-more-control side of this issue, at almost every turn, wants to talk about how many are murdered. its only when they want to point the finger at other states, that they start talking rates.

"Have no idea what you're talking about 2ndA foundation payments; thank you very much for conceding that the handgun ban has been technically lifted for almost 3 years now. As far as 'effectively' that remains conjecture until you post something from a reputable source, & not the nra or rightwing blogs."

If you don't know about payments by the city of chicago to the saf, and why they were made, then clearly, you haven't been paying attention. It only remains in conjecture to you, not to the rest of us, who HAVE been paying attention.


And um...again, where was vermont in your little study, eh?

 

nonoyes

(261 posts)
45. Cue the gun advocates to desparage any research in 3-2-1
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 09:40 PM
Mar 2013

Oh wait, I'm late to the party. I see over 20 posts here already beat my prediction.

And, strangely, the biggest conclustion of the well-documented, well analyzed statistical report was to advocate MORE research on the topic.

How could I have predicted those science deniers'/gun advocates' desparaging points coming?

And the dim bulb award goes to THIS POST as the most ambiguously unsubstantiated rationale arguing for no more research:

There are doctors that are pro choose and those that don't believe in abortion.

There are scientist who agree with global warming and those that don't.

The media reporting this are fish on the line for those supporting the gun grabber agenda.
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