How many rounds before you trust your life to a SD firearm?

[ileus]

I know some folks claim they run 300-500 (or more) rounds through a self defense pistol, but is that necessary? Does it come down to brand? Size? Caliber? Type? Glock 3 rounds, and ruger 300? 500 for a kel tec PF9? 700 for a 1911? 1000 for a Taurus?

Is it even a number of reliable rounds as opposed to getting to know the firearm to where it's an extension of your arm? Double taps become second nature, every round within reason right on target.

How many rounds do you deem necessary before you trust your life with a new SD firearm?

I picked up a Ruger SR45 a few weeks ago for general plinking and HD, it's eaten everything from HP reloads, WWB FMJs, to steel wolf, PDX and +p corbons without issue. After the first range session I thought it GTG but I held off until the third round at the range, she's sitting on 250 flawless rounds so far, but I still keep the P229 close at hand.

[rrneck]

1. My SD handgun is a Colt 1911.

Except for a bad mag, it's never missed a beat. Same for the 870.

[ileus]

2. Colt...the Glock of 1911's and AR's

To be truthful only my (now gone Taurus pt145) was a turd not worth trusting. Of the sd pistols I've bought lately all have been worthy of carry or sd duty. Even...no especially my LCP, it has been perfect for over 800 rounds. It did have two almost faliure to feeds in the first 100 rounds. It was like it stalled for a second and before I could take action it went completely into battery. My m&p and sig perfect. I have a p89 that I bought new back in my college days 92? 93? that just keeps on ticking. I find myself wanting a LCR or 642 now just because I want a revolver in my rotation.

[Skeeter Barnes]

3. If it's a known quality firearm, Glock, SIG, XD, Ruger, etc...

I'd be comfortable after a couple of mags of whatever round I am going to use. JMO but I think this notion that you have to shoot several hundred rounds of your chosen load before the gun and the round are GTG is something the industry came up with. They would love it if everyone did that with their expensive SD ammo!

I might want a little more testing with a brand new 1911 but I'd be confident in it functioning after 100 rounds.

Congrats on the new Ruger.

[GreenStormCloud]

5. I agree.

With a high quality firearm, two mags with load of choice, then clean, load, and carry. Any extra shots are for practice or fun.

[Bazinga]

7. I disagree with the order.

Should be clean first, then go to the range and fire a couple magazines, then load and carry.

I know guns are simple machines designed to be disassembled and reassembled with a high degree of fidelity, but a dry-fire function test is just not quite reliable enough for me. I think you should be absolutely certain that the gun operates in its current condition, not the condition it was in before you took it apart and reassembled it. And the only way to do that is to fire it.

[ileus]

15. I wonder if one should FT the firearm after cleaning with a magazine

or two; a kind of a fowling process target shooters go through after cleaning their barrels.

[Bazinga]

18. Naw, fouling isn't going to help anything.

Two mags worth isn't going to hurt reliability any, but it's not going to help. And the accuracy advantage in a 3 inch barrel is less than negligible, especially when you're only worried about combat accuracy like you are with an SD pistol.

The only reason I would do it this way is to be 100% sure I don't get clicks when I need bangs.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

4. 6

with a S&W 625 JM.

The rest are put downrange just for fun.

[sarisataka]

6. Honestly, I don't know

I fire a few fully loaded mags then some partials to do rapid reload drills- Strong hand, weak hand, both hands.
If it prints well and has no unexplained jams i.e. my fault, move on to 3 round strings from a variety of positions to get an exact feel for POA/POI
I suppose it will be 100-150 rounds over two range sessions depending on mag size. If it is reliable, accurate and comfortable, I am willing to carry it.

I find Rugers to be very underestimated. They are quite accurate and boringly reliable, though for me the grip sometimes feels 'funny'- personal issue, I dislike Glock for the same reason

[Lurks Often]

8. It varies

With a Ruger or Glock or Springfield XD, etc, that have relatively loose tolerances a hundred rounds or so should be sufficient. Kahr recommends a 200 round break in period and a high end custom gun with tight tolerances, I'd go at least 200 rounds as well. At least 50 rounds should be fired through the gun during a single range trip.

I'd certainly fire at least 50 rounds through a revolver in a single range trip because twice I've seen a S&W in the 640 family lock up so tight that it required the attention of a gunsmith after the gun heated up, once during qualifications at a shooting school and once during a back up gun match.

[oneshooter]

11. I had a problem once during a "BUG match"

My BUG is a 1936 Webley da top break revolver, it was cut to accept 45acp in moon clips or 45AR as loose rounds. Was told that it was too large to use as a BUG. The only way I carry it is in a shoulder holster, and then mainly when on horseback. I considered it a BUG to my M92 Trapper in 45lc. Got to shoot the match anyway, and came in next to first, beat by a guy with a Beretta Tomcat!

[spin]

9. I carry a revolver for self defense. ...

I run 10 to 12 rounds of a new self defense round through the revolver and I'm good to go.

One time I did have a problem with a revolver and a brand of ammo. I own a 9mm S&W model 940. I bought some hot Cor-Bon factory ammo. I fired one clyinder full downrange and found I could not extract the rounds from the clyinder. I had to use a brass rod and tap several cases loose before I could get the moon clip to fall out of the cylinder. I've never had the same problem with this revolver and other brands of 9mm ammo.

[ileus]

10. I sure can tell when I shoot +p corbon

In the 45...

I'm really wanting a 642 or LCR in 38.

Does your 9mm require moon clips?

[spin]

12. Yes. I have to use moon clips. ...

Full moon clips offer the advantage of faster reloading but if slightly bent can effect the reliability of the revolver.

I rarely carry this revolver as it is far heavier than my S&W model 642. It is more fun to shoot on the range than the 642 as the recoil isn't as stiff. The fact that my 940 is the 3" model also makes it easier to shoot at longer distances.

I have small hands so I have a fondness for S&W J-frame revolvers. My favorite is a 3" Model 60 .357 mag.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

19. Interesting problem. It sounds like the Cor-Bon is so hot that it is causing more case expansion.

Could there also be a difference in the use of tapered-case 9mm Luger ammo versus straight-walled 9mm Auto cartridges?

http://38super.net/Pages/9mm%20Automatic.html

I'm just speculating but wondering, could the use of tapered-case 9mm Luger ammo inherently allow for greater expansion?

Few things are as interesting as being unable to re-load when needed.

[spin]

20. That's a interest theory that might have an effect on difficult case extraction ...

from a revolver. I never realized that 9mm Luger ammo was tapered.

But the S&W 940 revolver is known as having a problem with case extraction from the cylinder. The most probable cause was probably that the Cor-Bon ammo was too hot for my revolver. All other brands of 9mm ammo that I've tried work fine. Still a tapered case might still be a significant contributing factor.

[shadowrider]

22. I'm having a difficult time deciding what to carry

I have a Springfield XD .40 subcompact which is really nice but the 12+1 makes the grip a little big.

I also have a Sig p224 which is very nice and extremely accurate but it has an extremely tight trigger pull.

I also have a Taurus .22 magnum (8 round cylinder) which fires a vicious critical defense round. it's light enough to wear on the ankle.

Decisions decisions.

[oneshooter]

23. If you only load 8 in the XD it will be a little slimmer.

[spin]

24. The chances that I will ever have to use my concealed handgun for legitimate self defense ...

are extremely slim. My best defense tactic is simply practicing situational awareness which mainly means that I do not walk down dark streets with a cell phone glued to my ear.

If my awareness fails me and I find myself facing a street thug who asks for my wallet, I plan to appraise him. If he appears rational and sane and I feel that all he wants is my wallet, I will just give it to him. I can always replace my money, credit cards and my ID. My health is much harder to replace and I don't want to end up six feet under.

Of course if he is extremely aggressive or appears irrational or extremely inebriated or high, I might have good reason to fear for my life or health and I will do whatever is necessary to defend myself. That could involve using lethal force.

If I lived in an extremely dangerous neighborhood or was an LEO I would prefer to have a pistol with at least a seven round capacity such as a 1911 style Colt .45 auto or a .40 caliber Glock. Both would have more ammunition capacity than my five round S&W .38 snubbie and would be far easier to reload. Both of these choices would also be easier to shoot accurately at a longer range and far more lethal.

But all I want is a reliable handgun that offers me some chance of stopping an attack and is also light and easy to carry. I can drop my S&W Model 642 and its pocket holster into my pocket as I head out the door and not have to worry about carrying a heavy and uncomfortable weapon in a belt or shoulder holster.

I live in Florida where the average temperature makes concealing a large weapon difficult during most of the year. Most of the people I know who carry on a regular basis chose light and compact handguns. The Ruger LCP or similar handguns are popular here. Of course there are a few exceptions. I know a business owner who carries his full sized pistol under his suit jacket or under scrubs although he is not in the medical field.

I'm not fond of a light trigger pull in a defense handgun. That's fine for target shooting but the long and heavy trigger pull of my S&W Model 642 has advantages as the adrenaline flow that occurs during a live and death situation will not cause an accidental discharge. The Model 642 is also a double action only revolver but with practice can be quite accurate at close range. It's called a belly gun because you can shove it into an attacker's belly and it will fire unlike a pistol. The fact that it has no external hammer also makes drawing it from a pocket easier as there is no hammer to snag on the pocket.

The five big drawbacks of my choice of a the Model 642 as a defensive handgun are:

1) Capacity is limited to five rounds. Reloading is more difficult than a pistol.

2) .38 +P is considered to have marginal power when fired from a snub nosed revolver.

3) The double action trigger pull is difficult to master without considerable practice.

4) The fairly significant recoil of a .38 caliber round in a handgun that only weighs 15 ounces makes practice uncomfortable.

5) The short barrel length makes shooting accurately at a distance far more difficult.

However there are some advantages to my choice.

1) The Model 642 is priced at a very reasonable level.

2) The light weight and the fact that it is designed to be a pocket revolver makes it easy to carry while a heavier weapon often remains behind in the safe while you are out and about.

3) Most civilian encounters involving the defensive use of a handgun involve less than five shots. The limitation of only having five rounds eliminates the tendency to "fill the air with lead."

4) A revolver is simple to operate. No safeties to worry disengaging about as you are the safety. Pull the trigger and if loaded it will make a loud noise.

THe first rule of surviving a gun or knife fight is to not be in one. That's why situational awareness is so important. The second rule of survival when attacked by an individual armed with a gun or a knife is to have a gun.

When I first obtained a carry permit I tried to carry a full sized Colt .45. Then I bought a "compact" .40 Beretta Centurion. Finally I decided that I needed something light and convenient to carry. The S&W Model 642 fit the bill and I started to carry on a regular basis.

In passing I sometime carry a .22 magnum S&W Model 351PD. This revolver is even lighter than my Model 642. It's so damn light that you could forget that you are carrying. I bought it for a good price used but this revolver is fairly expensive compared to the Model 642. I doubt if a .22 magnum round is as effective as a .38 +P at stopping an attack but I wouldn't want to get hit by either.

[oneshooter]

25. I have CHL holsters for many of my firearms

They include:
1860 Colt Army 44 cal 4" C&B

1936 Webley 45cal Cylinder was cut at some time in the past. Will load 45AR or 45acp w/full moon clips

Colt SAA (Model P) 45LC 3 1/2"

Astra A-75 9mm DA/SA

SIG 220 45cal This one is my preferred CHL weapon.

My CHL weapon allows me to get to a REAL weapon.


The 8 vs 12 round was a JOKE. 4 rounds less= a slimmer grip.

[spin]

26. People differ. I found that it was a pain to put a holster on my belt ...

just to be able to carry a concealed weapon while shopping locally. When I took a trip I would take the effort to either wear a shoulder holster or put on an IWB holster.

It proved far easier to just grab my snub nosed revolver and its holster and drop both in my pants pocket on the way out the door. It only takes a few seconds and therefore you don't have a good excuse to leave your weapon behind.

One big advantage to pocket carry is that you can casually put your hand in your pocket on your handgun if you anticipate trouble and no one is the wiser. This may give you a slight edge if you have to draw your weapon.

Your SIG 220 is a excellent weapon but I fear that if I owned one it would be largely a safe queen except for the times I took it to the range.

[sarisataka]

27. RE: drawbacks

The five big drawbacks of my choice of a the Model 642 as a defensive handgun are:

1) Capacity is limited to five rounds. Reloading is more difficult than a pistol. The majority of gunfights are done in 3 rounds or less

2) .38 +P is considered to have marginal power when fired from a snub nosed revolver. Nobody wants a piece of lead to impart them traveling 900+ ft/sec. The .38 round worked well for over a century

3) The double action trigger pull is difficult to master without considerable practice. The heavier pull is offset by the smoothness of the revolver trigger

4) The fairly significant recoil of a .38 caliber round in a handgun that only weighs 15 ounces makes practice uncomfortable. Do the majority of you range time with light weight non+p rounds. It will significantly reduce the felt recoil

5) The short barrel length makes shooting accurately at a distance far more difficult. If the threat is at a distance, attempt avoidance and/or seek cover. You may achieve the ideal outcome of not having to shoot.

One other piece of advice, use a pocket holster. Revolvers are resistant to dirt and lint, but if enough gets into the works it will lock it up. It also holds the gun in place so it remains accessible, rather than fishing around for the grip during a crisis. Lastly but perhaps most important, it greatly reduces the chances of an ND which at best scares you and everyone else half to death or at worst causes you a very painful and embarrassing injury or to someone else.
I have a 638 and like the Desantis pocket-tuk http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-GUN-MANUFACTURER/SW/J-332-340-342-442-640-640-1-642-2-14/POCKET-HOLSTERS but there are many options out there.

[spin]

28. All good points. ...

I definitely agree with your advise on a pocket holster. The Model 642 revolver is less prone to gather dirt and lint in a pocket than many other revolvers as it has no external hammer. A holster does help to keep the revolver in the proper position while allowing easy access.

My comments on the stiff recoil is largely based on the opinion of other shooters who have tried my weapon at the range. At the range I used to shoot at in the Tampa Bay Area the experienced shooters often were happy to try each others firearms. When asked I would allow another shooter to try my snubbie. After a cylinder full, the shooter would normally say. "Wow." He then would hand the revolver back and the next time I brought my Model 642 to the range he would turn down my offer to shoot it.

I agree with your advise on mostly practicing with standard .38 loads. I usually fire 50 to 100 of these rounds through my snubbie and finish off with a couple of cylinders full of .38+P ammo. A steady diet of .38+P might unnecessarily stress this small revolver and reduce its life span. My Model 642 has several thousand rounds run through it and shows no signs of aging.

[Glaug-Eldare]

13. I can't carry here, but 200 is my policy.

This isn't quite SOP, though, is it?

[ileus]

14. SOP has it covered; the use of firearms for self-defense,

We can talk tactics, training, and self defense firearms. Not every post has to be a bitch fest between the regressive 2Aer's and progressive 2Aer's.





Yeah I think 200 is a pretty good amount of break in for most serious SD firearms.

[Glaug-Eldare]

16. Good to know. For me, it's more about the ammo.

Last edited Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)

I have two handguns, and if I'm going to rely on any kind of AP ammo (I stock Federal 9mm 119gr HiShok JHP (item 9BP) for this purpose) I want to ensure that the powder is enough to cycle the action, and that the primer will detonate on-time, every time.

There's a very appropriate saying with regard to guns:

"The two worst sounds in the world are a 'bang' when you expect a 'click,' and a 'click' when you expect a 'bang.'"

[ileus]

17. I use federal Hydra shok in my 380

Remington golden sabers in my 9mm and 380.

Corbon and PDX in the 45

Gold dots in the 40

and last but not least

Hornady Critical defense in my DW's 38.

(Maybe this would make a good follow up thread for discussion on what we carry and why.)

[ManiacJoe]

21. Assuming a top-end gun,

I would put 200-300 rounds of FMJ though it to get used to the gun. If needed pick some different weights to see what pattern better.

Then I would run a whole box of your chosen JHP though it to make sure they feed correctly as some bullet shapes work better than others in some guns.

At this point I would be willing to carry it. However, any trip to the range would include at least a few magazines of FMJ though your new SD pistol until it got to a 1000 round count.

[ileus]

29. I spoke too soon...

This weekend I had 5 light primer strikes. Second mag 1 light primer strike, Third mag 1, fourth mag 3 in a row.

The last 35 rounds were without issue.

I took the puppy apart and removed the striker, inside were dozens of little brass shavings, I assume from the extractor. I cleaned the striker channel out and reassembled.

Last night I took it down to the garden to run 10 test rounds, all the rounds fired and fed properly however, the pistol failed to lock back on the last round. The mag springs don't seem to have enough ummph to move the slide catch up enough to engage the slide. I bent catch just enough to where it functions properly, looking at it you can't tell it was ever bent.

I should have bought the M&P instead.

I'll give it another 100 rounds in the next week and see how it does, it may be time for Ruger to preform their famous first year ECN's