That other executive order...(updated)

[beevul]

That other executive order...the one dealing with trusts...no one seems to quite understand, that this deals with NFA weapons only, unless I've somehow misunderstood the subject of these changes. Some article and some posters I've seen for that matter, conflate it with the "gun show" loophole, which it is most definitely not.

Does anyone here think that the changes being made to it will effect gun crime in any way shape size or form?


On edit: Yup:

Closing a Loophole to Keep Some of the Most Dangerous Guns Out of the Wrong Hands

•Current law places special restrictions on many of the most dangerous weapons, such as machine guns and short-barreled shotguns. These weapons must be registered, and in order to lawfully possess them, a prospective buyer must undergo a fingerprint-based background check.
• However, felons, domestic abusers, and others prohibited from having guns can easily evade the required background check and gain access to machine guns or other particularly dangerous weapons by registering the weapon to a trust or corporation. At present, when the weapon is registered to a trust or corporation, no background check is run. ATF reports that last year alone, it received more than 39,000 requests for transfers of these restricted firearms to trusts or corporations.
•Today, ATF is issuing a new proposed regulation to close this loophole. The proposed rule requires individuals associated with trusts or corporations that acquire these types of weapons to undergo background checks, just as these individuals would if the weapons were registered to them individually. By closing this loophole, the regulation will ensure that machine guns and other particularly dangerous weapons do not end up in the wrong hands.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/08/29/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence

How often does gun violence occur with NFA weapons? Wanting to keep those out of the wrong hands - a laudable goal - but how often were they getting into the wrong hands to begin with?

[MicaelS]

1. What is the point of having the NFA exist...

And all the regulations and checks that goes with it, only to subvert most of them with a Trust? Never understood that.

[beevul]

3. The NFA was designed to make certain firearms and weapons cost prohibitive.

The NFA was designed to make certain firearms and weapons cost prohibitive, which it actually increased in effect, after 1986.

That is the part, I suspect, that makes it so effective.

The trust thing, is generally employed to bypass the CLEO signoff, to my knowledge, and these changes do not effect that as far as I can see.

I don't own any NFA weapons, or have any desire to, but I just don't see the justification to make changes to that which was already working, either.

How many crimes have been committed with NFA weapons since 1934 - that is, in the roughly 80 years since the NFA became law?

[MicaelS]

4. I think that the extensive background checks have also helped make it effective.

To the best of my knowledge only two crimes have been committed with NFA weapons.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1073545_Essay_on_Repealing_922_o___1986_machinegun_ban_.html

Legal, transferable machineguns are not typically used in crimes. There have been 2 recorded incidents since 1934 of legal machineguns used in a crime.

Dayton, Ohio police officer Roger Waller was charged and convicted of murdering a police informant with a registered (to the police department) machinegun (Hills 1). Sec. 922(o) bans civilians from owning machineguns made after 1986, but makes exceptions for the federal government as well as state and local law enforcement agencies. This officer purchased and registered his MAC-11 submachine gun for use as a police officer, complying with the law. Officer Waller claimed it was an accident, but was convicted of murder along with an accomplice (Hills 1).

Dr. Shou Chao Ho also murdered someone with a legally registered machinegun in Medina, Ohio in 1994. He was convicted and sentenced to 18 years to life for the crime (Ledson 1).

[gejohnston]

7. from my understanding,

the point of the trust was for police departments (NFA doesn't have a law enforcement exemption), museums (since inoperable weapons must still be registered), security companies like Brinks. The main reason individuals do it is to get around the CLEO sign off. The ATF was discussing doing away with the CLEO sign off, it makes the matter moot.

It seems the plan is to have officers of the trust, once it is created, to go through the background check when it is created. While POTUS does have a valid point in principle, I seriously doubt it is a real problem. The only crime I have heard of a legal NFA weapon being used in a crime was a bad cop using a department owned MAC-I0).
TAGG has a decent write up on it:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/analyzing-impact-obamas-proposed-changes-nfa-trusts/?fb_source=pubv1

[Jenoch]

2. I have a comment about the following:

"However, felons, domestic abusers, and others prohibited from having guns can easily evade the required background check and gain access to machine guns or other particularly dangerous weapons by registering the weapon to a trust or corporation."

I don't think felons are registering NFA guns with trusts and corporations to evade required background checks. I think they are inheriting the NFA weapons that were previously registered with corporations or trusts. What I wonder is just how often this happens. I do not think the number of applicants for this type of registration is necessarily indicative of the number of felons who end up owning NFA weapons through corporations or trusts.

[sarisataka]

5. Since NFA weapons are rare

and the number of crimes with them approaches zero, it will not really do anything to reduce crime.
This is a case of a loophole and I have no problem closing it.

Now banning re-importation of 60+ year old military weapons, of which modern copies are still made, makes less sense.

[dookers]

6. When was the last time a NFA used in a shooting?

Why would a felon go through the trouble to register a NFA weapon through a trust? These weapons cost many thousands of dollars and are very rare. Makes no sense to me.

[HolyMoley]

8. It's possible that the Chris Dorner situation

was instrumental in implementing this new policy (even though he could have passed a background check, and at no time used any NFA firearms during his spree).

Trusts Offer a Legal Loophole for Buying Restricted Guns


A growing number of shooting enthusiasts are creating legal trusts to acquire machine guns, silencers or other items whose sale is restricted by federal law — a mechanism that bypasses the need to obtain law enforcement approval or even undergo criminal background checks.


Christopher J. Dorner, the former Los Angeles police officer who embarked on a weeklong assault on law enforcement officers this month that ended with his death on Feb. 12, said in a rambling 11,000-word manifesto that he had used a gun trust to buy silencers and a short-barreled rifle from a gun store in Nevada without a background check.

Referring to a computer program available from the personal finance software company Quicken, Mr. Dorner wrote, “I was able to use a trust account that I created on quicken will maker and a $10 notary charge at a mailbox etc. to obtain them legally.” Mr. Dorner was not a felon and probably would have passed a background check had he received one.



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/us/in-gun-trusts-a-legal-loophole-for-restricted-firearms.html?ref=us&_r=2&

[jeepnstein]

11. Just to clarify...

When you pick up an NFA item, you still have to have the same background check you must pass for a regular firearm. What the NFA paperwork is about is paying a tax stamp. It's and expensive and slow process that criminals don't bother following. The trust route for NFA is popular in areas where a chief law enforcement officer's sign off is a problem. In many jurisdictions the CLEO simply doesn't want anyone but police officers owning such firearms so they refuse to sign. In those jurisdictions the trust is the only way for a lawful citizen to legally acquire certain kinds of arms.

Among the shooters I know the most popular NFA items are Short Barreled Rifles and suppressors. In order to own a semi-automatic rifle with a short barrel you must pay the tax and file the paperwork. Full auto is pretty much too expensive to consider for most folks since the registry was closed in 1986. These days full-auto is the domain of the wealthy, us serfs need not apply.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

9. Of the 39,000 requests, I wonder ...

... how many were for contract companies working for the government? Like Blackwater (aka Academi).

[oldhippie]

10. I'm still not sure of the truth of this statement ....

At present, when the weapon is registered to a trust or corporation, no background check is run.

I just picked up an NFA item from my dealer just this past Friday. I had been waiting for the approval since early January. The item was purchased by and registered to my Trust, as described in the article. I did not send in any photos or prints with the application because, as noted, it is not required for ATF to do a background check on a trust or corporation. (Still, it took the same 8 months to get the approval as for those who do have to go through the fingerprint background check. I wonder why?)

Now here's the thing. When I picked up the item I still had to fill out the ATF form 4473 for the transfer. The 4473 transfer was to me as an individual, as there is no provision for a 4473 transfer to a trust. The dealer was not required to do an instant "NICS" background check on me, as I hold a Texas CHL and thus I am pre-cleared and exempt from the check. However, I believe anyone else without a Texas CHL would have to be called in for the instant check, just like any other firearms transfer from a dealer. And that check is always against an individual, not a trust or corporation.

So, how is any felon supposed to be getting around the background check when, even if the weapon is registered in the name of a trust, it is still transferred by the dealer to an individual that picks up the weapon, and a 4473 and NICS check is done at that time? A felon in procession of a firearm is still a felony, no matter how he got it. How is this new rule supposed to improve things?