Who speaks for these children?

[gejohnston]

I call it fair play. Both are more common than school shootings. I don't hear them say anything on the issue, other than complain about the defender should have "just handed over the stuff"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96034&page=1#.T30XWNVKNxA
http://www.lewrockwell.com/poe/poe1.html
Who speaks for Jessica and her family?
Not Sarah Brady, because no gun was involved.
Not Bill Maher, she was just white trash who lived in a trailer.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder911-operators-shoot/story?id=15285605#.T30YdNVKNxA
What does the Brady Bunch and VPC say to her?

[Hoyt]

1. That's sad. Glad murderer didn't have some of the guns many here covet.

A gun wouldn't have changed much, except left a bigger body count.

Truthfully, I doubt Jessica and her family find solace in the gun culture's speculation or solution to such tragedies of a violent society.

[gejohnston]

4. actually, there

was a .357 in the safe, but California's safe storage laws did not allow her access. If she had access, the body count could have been much lower, but it could not be higher. There is no number higher than everyone else. She escaped, everyone else died. There is nothing to speculate.

[Hoyt]

26. Maybe the body count would have been less -- maybe not.

[Union Scribe]

8. Ok, so there's one vote for

'better for people to be pitchforked to death than shot'

Anyone else?

[Hoyt]

27. No, there is one vote to stop violence and that includes stopping people from arming up in public.

[BlueCaliDem]

2. We get it. You're pro-gun-no-matter-what.

But fact remains that the United States holds the record of violent, gun-related deaths, poor health care, poor mental care, and poor employee rights and pay. Combined, that could be very, very dangerous.

People in the United States are not happy. They don't have any real security. They're terrified to get a cavity because almost no one has good dental insurance. They're afraid to get sick because of the employment-at-will bullshit laws in this country, and they're afraid they won't have a job to return to.

America is not a melting pot. It's a powder keg.

[mvccd1000]

3. Wow, I thought it was the "pro-gun" people who were living in fear.

Come to find out, it's the people of the United States in general.

Perhaps that's a California thing? I just don't see it among my family, friends, and neighbors.

[BlueCaliDem]

12. It becomes clear

when they live in another country where there is not threat to their jobs, health care, dental care, hospitalzation care, unemployment, etc. Can't see the dangers lurking under the surface of the sea when you're right smack in the middle of it, can you?

I've spoken to many Americans while living in Holland, and ALL of them, without exception, despite the horrible weather in that country, wished they didn't have to leave - including Mormon missionaries.

So yeah, my argument still stands.

[gejohnston]

5. The US does not hold the record of violent gun related deaths.

That dishonor actually goes to Honduras.
OK, that is murder regardless of weapon.
Actually, there are many countries with much stricter gun laws that make us look like Singapore.
US murder rate is 4.8/100K
Honduras is 86/100K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
While Russia has very few gun murders, their murder rate higher than ours.
The highest murder rate in the US is USVI, 60/100K. USVI has some of the strictest gun laws in the US. About the same as Jamaica.

We basically agree on everything else.

[BlueCaliDem]

13. I *did* mention violent "gun-related" deaths, didn't I?

So your argument doesn't negate those facts.

[gejohnston]

15. no because

most of those murders are also violent gun related. Jamaica and Brazil especially.
Russia is the exception to the rule, who has more violent knife related deaths.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. Why won't you acknowledge that guns kill you deader?

<sarcasm mode to OFF>

I don't understand why those that imply that murder or suicide via gun is somehow worse than death by some other means expect
to be taken seriously...

[Johnny Rico]

6. Wow...I had no idea I was in the "almost no one" category. Who knew?

I have good dental insurance, and I've while I've run up around $10,000 in medical bills in the last month, I've only had to pay about $500 out of pocket. Travel expenses are another matter, but it's my choice to fly to the Cleveland Clinic a half dozen times in the course of treatment.

(Helpful hint: Get a Southwest Airlines frequent flyer VISA. 25,000 free miles on your first purchase. I've already earned a free flight!)

But fact remains that the United States holds the record of violent, gun-related deaths, poor health care, poor mental care, and poor employee rights and pay.

We hold the record in all that? You're asserting that average employee rights and pay are better in Zimbabwe than here in the USA?

[rl6214]

7. I too could have massive medical bills

I had surgery on my hand last month that cost me $500, next month it's surgery on my eye which will probably be another $500. Over the past 15 years, I have had two shoulder surgeries, 4 eye surgeries, 4 hand surgeries and being diabetic, lots and lots of other medical procedures which I never could have had without my health insurance. I don't think the previous poster has any idea what she is talking about.

[BlueCaliDem]

14. You're actually comparing Zimbabwe to the United States?!?

Now that's a low blow.

I didn't think I had to note the qualifier, but ok, for the nitpickers . . . the United States holds the record of poor employee rights and pay among the wealthier countries of the industrialized world. Better?

And yes, having good dental insurance is few and far between the American people. You just got lucky.

[gejohnston]

17. I have socialized

medicine. Our employee rights and medical care does suck, but this is not the healthcare forum. Mexico has a single payer system, that is why a lot of US people in the southwest (or at least did when I was there) go to Mexico for their healthcare. Of course these people were free loading off of the Mexican taxpayer, but they did not realize that.

[BlueCaliDem]

20. You ARE lucky! I wish we had socialized medicine here in CA.

I didn't know a lot of people in the southwest traveled to Mexico for their health care. One never hears anything about that when people harp on Mexicans "getting free health care" here in this country, do we?

Thanks for that info. I'm going to look it up. This is surprising, to say the least.

[gejohnston]

23. mine is from the VA

but I did know civilians in El Paso and southern NM who went to Mexico.

[Johnny Rico]

19. You said the United States held the record. Period. I acknowledge your admission of error.

Last edited Thu Apr 5, 2012, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

It isn't "nitpicking" to point out the error of a blanket statement.

the United States holds the record of poor employee rights and pay among the wealthier countries of the industrialized world. Better?

Not much better. Here are the numbers for average disposable wage for Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries.

1 United States 40,560
2 Luxembourg 38,301
3 Ireland 38,128
4 Switzerland 35,265
5 Australia 33,359
6 United Kingdom 32,786
7 Canada 32,047
8 Norway 31,489
9 South Korea 29,268
10 Netherlands 28,773
11 Austria 28,269
12 Sweden 27,656
13 France 27,526
14 Japan 26,849
15 Denmark 26,562
16 Spain 26,386
17 Finland 25,316
18 Belgium 24,910
19 Germany 23,302
20 Italy 22,925
21 Greece 22,317
22 Portugal 17,866
23 Czech Republic 15,955
24 Slovakia 14,694
25 Poland 13,197
26 Hungary 12,843

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx

This is disposable income. It should be noted that when sorted by gross income, the United States is still #1.

#1. How about that....

America is not a melting pot. It's a powder keg.

So when can we expect the revolution? Mind you, when I use that word I'm not referring to a bunch of Occupiers squatting in a park.

And yes, having good dental insurance is few and far between the American people. You just got lucky.

Luck has nothing to do with it; I chose to spend my some of my limited resources on it.

[BlueCaliDem]

21. OMGosh! All those stats

and all that disposable income, and yet the United States couldn't even make it to the top 10 of nations who have the most happy and content citizens! Fancy that. (powder keg!)

Btw? Also from the OECD - we FAIL miserably, despite all that income (which is probably concentrated in the top 1% anyway). Aside from underdeveloped countries, I don't know of any that has a minimum wage. They have LIVING wages.

So, again, the American people aren't living in the happiest place on earth.

1) Demark

2) Canada

3) Norway

4) Australia

5) Netherlands (I know this one personally)

6) Sweden

7) Switzerland

8) Finland

9) Israel

10) Austria

So, it's true! Money can't buy happiness! America, again, is not a melting pot. It's a powder keg.

Revolution? You've got to be kidding, right? The propaganda machine in this country spends billions to keep Americans in a dazed stupor 24/7, even to the point they vote against themselves in every which way in order to support the obscenely wealthy in this country. The fourth estate has been replaced by Pravda from print to cable. Thought you'd understand that public secret.

Luck has nothing to do with it; I chose to spend my some of my limited resources on it.

And you're overpaying. My brother, in the Netherlands, pays 28 euro a month for dental, comprehensive health (includes physiotherapy, x-rays, psychiatric, medical devices like hovarounds, etc), prescriptions, hospitalization and vision - ZERO co-pays and ZERO deductibles.

How much do you pay on dental? Less than $30 dollars a month? And that's still overpaying compared to the Dutch.

[Johnny Rico]

24. Happiness stats are quite interesting. Irrelevant to the argument at hand, but still interesting.

The fact remains you've made an assertion about US income (shown to be false), then revised it (shown to be false again).

America, again, is not a melting pot. It's a powder keg.

Revolution? You've got to be kidding, right?

Given that, your powder appears to have gotten wet. When you say America is a powder keg, what do you mean?

How much do you pay on dental? Less than $30 dollars a month?

$36 a month for the high option. Trivial.

[Union Scribe]

9. Ok, and one vote for

'maniacs kill people because of untreated cavities'...

[BlueCaliDem]

16. Ok, and one vote for

simplistic thinking in order to try to discredit a reasonable theory because of misplaced patriotism and stung American pride.

Just in case it hadn't dawned on you, the argument was about fear people experience in general because, aside from some privileged few here, the average American worker in general has zero security to fall back on in this country. They are in constant fear of the subjects I've listed. To deny that is to stick one's head in the sand and sing "la-la-la".

[oneshooter]

28. And you are hijacking this thread, why? Please stop.

[Simo 1939_1940]

11. "America is not a melting pot. It's a powder keg."

And isn't it ever so comforting to know that we've empowered the GOP during these sad times for our nation via our dishonesty about gun restriction?

[BlueCaliDem]

22. Yes, it is.

But we'll have to admit, and remember, that propaganda goes a looooong way. The best marketers in the world come from the United States. They've honed it to perfection and this is the result.

[Simo 1939_1940]

10. And who speaks for the children that will inevitably die or lose parents as a direct result

of the despicable actions of our rogue ATF?

[gejohnston]

18. good point

new thread?