Microstamp technology is ineffective for law enforcement

[Meiko]

Maryland has already been down the road of requiring that a fired shell casing be provided for every pistol sold in the state (that being a simpler type of microstamping). That requirement has not produced a single criminal conviction in 15 years

Imagine that. I guess we have already figured out that this is useless technology. It does one thing real well though, it drives the cost of guns up.

Your editorial "Getting down to brass tags" (June 14) left out a few facts that might give your readers a clearer view of the value of adding microstamping technology to pistols as a way of tracing spent shell-casings found at crime scenes to a particular handgun. Independent studies by the National Academy of Science, by the University of California at Davis, and by George Krivosta of the American Society of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners concluded the technology is underdeveloped, producing inaccurate results that are easily circumvented, either on purpose or by simple use of the firearm within a few number of rounds fired. Mandates to use this technology come from its sole-source inventor who stands to benefit substantially when firearm manufacturers must come to him to learn how to apply microstamping to their products. The cost of $12 per gun comes from advocates of the technology. Firearm manufacturers estimate the cost at around $200 per gun.

***MORE AT LINK***

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-microstamp-letter-20120618,0,2323715.story

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. So sayeth an attorney for Beretta.

No bias there.

[hack89]

4. It is true that the technology is incredibly easy to circumvent

there will be instructional videos on YouTube within hours of such a law passing.

Of course criminals can just use one of the hundreds of millions of handguns already in circulation that will not have this capability. Or perhaps revolvers will make a come back.

[Hoyt]

7. Oh, so all you "law-abiding" gun owners will obliterate microstamping. That's nice.

I don't think a criminal will worry about it. If they even know the microstamping exists, they are "smart enough" to dump the gun after a gun crime.

Now, if you supposed "law-abiding" folks are planning to tamper with the microstamping -- that is worrisome. Also shows "law abiding" gun owners are not so friggin law-abiding.

[hack89]

9. Did you read the part about how normal use will wear down the stamp?

So if you know criminals won't be effected by this, what's the point?

[Hoyt]

11. Wear down over a long time. Plus, if even a few aspects of microstamp are still there,

it will be useful.

Just be honest, you guys don't want guns tracked because it might reduce value, or get someone like Zimmerman -- who chooses to run from the scene -- caught.

Criminals won't waste their time filing down microstamp. But if the gun is identified and tracked back to the original owner, the police can then find out who it was sold to, or when it was stolen, etc. All of that will help solve a crime.

Of course, that assumes "law-abiding" original owner cooperates. I'm beginning to doubt that.

[DonP]

20. Try again - Zimmerman didn't "run from the scene"

How do you propose solving the "Revolver Loophole"?

Wait, we already know what you really want, to ban all firearms from private ownership and give the state a total monopoly on force.

And historically that always works out so well for everyone, especially the well meaning "do gooders". With any luck maybe you won't be the first up "against a wall"?

[Hoyt]

23. Don, lord. We don't need it work for every gun - just some.

If it works for semi-autos, then it works for a significant gun population.

I also would like to study how the sales of guns slide. I think a LOT of gun sales are driven by some weird "sex" appeal - but revolvers really don't appeal in that way to today's gun culture.

If you are concerned about "the state, " you can leave your guns at home until revolution arrives. You might consider talking to someone, at some point, as well.

[DonP]

30. I have to leave my guns at home - Illinois is anti choice as far as guns go.

I live in your gun control utopia, Chicago. Where murders are only up by 48% over last year while they are down almost everywhere else.

We only had 7 people killed and another 35 wounded, while the President was in town with heightened security last weekend. But that was better than the previous weekend with 11 killed and 45 wounded.

Thanks heavens we don't allow concealed carry here and we have such effective gun control and a caring, honest mayor..

It's those damn Hoosiers I bet!

<sarcasm off>

[Hoyt]

31. People of Illinois are smart.

Have you personally been shot? Do you know anyone who has?

[Clames]

35. People of Illinois want CCW.

Their leadership needs to listen to them.

[Hoyt]

36. Some people do. I doubt most really want a bunch of gun fanatics carrying them.

There might be a bunch of right wingers who do, but you have to consider their reasons.

[Remmah2]

65. We'll just have to wait and see what the voters say.

If trends follow as they have, CCW will come to Illinois in a completely democratic manner.

[Clames]

73. You seem to spend enough time considering their reasons...

...for several people. Don't ignore the fact that plenty of Democrats, even those in leadership, are asking for CCW permits.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. iow, it is a matter of WHEN The Revolution Arrives? You do realize what you are saying, right?

Hoyt, you are periously close . . . . you realize it, right?

adding the quote in case Hoyt decides to delete:

If you are concerned about "the state, " you can leave your guns at home until revolution arrives.

[Hoyt]

37. I'm saying if your rationale for accumulating guns is fear of "state, " you don't need them on

streets now. Personally I don't fear my government in respect expressed by poster above. But some here do.

Read the middle paragraph from post #20. That is what I replied to. Try to be more discerning, especially when you are carrying a lethal weapon.

Do you fear the gubment to the point you need to walk around armed for a revolution?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. DonP said nothing about a Revolution. You are now being insulting to me with your insinuations and

your country slang. cool, dude.

[Hoyt]

39. So what does "give state monopoly on force" mean to you. That's the kind of fear you hear

from the right wing, Timmie McVeigh types. Again, if that is your rationale for arming up, leave them at home rather than arm up like militia types on the street.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. He is claiming that is what YOU want. leave what -I- want out of this. Let us try to understand

what on earth you and DonP are talking about and then you can focus on me. Calm down dude.

[Hoyt]

41. Like I said, if one's concern is "state power", then one can wait to start arming up in public.

I'm not concerned with guns in one's home, except for number and types.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. but, Hoyt...exactly WHO is the State?

and why are you so concerned about what a neighbor has in their home? do you not trust your neighbors? why are you so nosy?

[Hoyt]

43. What Timmie McVeigh and followers of "Turner Diaries" fear.

If you are afraid of the police, and government, I suggest leaving your guns at home.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. -I- am not afraid. n/t

[Hoyt]

47. Thanks god. I'm off to dream land.

[Hoyt]

44. I don't trust the majority of gun nuts, they tend to be bigots,militia types,Tbaggers,etc.

DUers might not be, but to keep you guys smiling, I'm not going to endorse a bunch of bigoted, greedy, etc., people.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. ? Hoyt....god bless your soul. You sound so paranoid. What has happened to you in your life to make

you so fearful and distrustful of your fellow man?

[Hoyt]

49. I've grown up around right wing, callous, bigoted gun owners. The majority of gun culture.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. but, now you are a grown man and you can choose your own friends and make your own

decisions. all I am saying is that the world is bigger than that. Don't judge all of us by the people who raised you. Think for yourself. don't just be a reactionist to your raising.
(I think I just made up a new word)

Not ALL gun owners are right wing, callous and bigoted. Especially your fellow DUers. Learn to trust US. Listen to what WE are saying. Do not allow your raising to color your judgment on the BoR and the Constitution.

Bad things are going to happen. Accidents will occur. We all want to keep those at a minimum. I think I speak for us all on here about this.

We want to be your friends. Don't make it so hard for us to do that. Try. Peace, dude. we all want that...true, there are others in the world that don't want it but, IT IS NOT YOUR FELLOW DUers. I promise.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. What percentage of the 80 million US gun owners can you possibly be acquainted with?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. he has said that he has gone off to dreamland. I hope he takes my above post in the manner

in which it was intended and if I have misspoke for my fellow DUers please let me know. I do not mean to put words in anyone's mouth...but, I think this group needs to find some peace. I hate seeing us in Meta.

[Hoyt]

61. Apparently you don't know many US citizens because you still carry and promote guns in public.

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. Can we assume your posts concerning others here are of similiar accuracy? I don't own a gun.

[gejohnston]

54. ever considered putting that part of Georgia in the rear view mirror?

Where exactly is this so I know not to show up.

[Hoyt]

62. It's the same just about anywhere right wingers live and control the government.

[Hoyt]

59. That's funny, coming from someone who can't leave home without a gun.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

80. What's funny is I don't CCW. Never said I did.

[GreenStormCloud]

79. He used to be an armed robber.

So he thinks that everybody thinks the way he and his friends at the time did. He projects.

He admitted to having been an armed robber here on DU3: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

[Tuesday Afternoon]

81. I think you are right. thanks for the link.

He thinks everyone is motivated from guilt. I kind of feel sorry for him. He makes it sound like he had a horrible childhood.

[Straw Man]

58. But it doesn't work at all, Hoyt.

How many times do you have to be told that?

Yes, the technology works: a readable impression can be put on a cartridge case. Too bad the behavior of criminals doesn't conform to the desired patterns. People don't tend to commit crimes with guns that are legally registered to them. Surprise, surprise.

Fifteen years of ballistic fingerprinting in Maryland, ten years in New York, no crimes solved. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Z-E-R-O.

Oh, but it might work someday, if all 50 states do it for about 100 years or so. So let's scrap CoBIS and mandate microstamping, which will shift the financial burden onto the manufacturers and consumers. Another unfunded mandate: make the law-abiding citizen pay for a useless crime-detection measure. What the hell, they're just gun owners anyway: worthless scum and probably Republicans, right? Let's just inconvenience and harass the shit out of them.

You'd also have to eventually ban revolvers. And brasscatchers. And files.

[Hoyt]

63. Where should the financial responsibility lie -- those that covet guns and profit from them.

Most gun carriers would cry if their only option were revolvers, and they have to carry brass catchers.

Besides, if you are really a law-abiding, responsible gun owner -- why would you get a revolver to avoid microstamped casings, or use brass catcher? Again, sounds to me that some of you are concerned that you might not use a gun as legally as you profess.

[PavePusher]

66. Dodge. n/t

[Straw Man]

67. More bullshit accusations.

I guess you have nothing else.

Again, sounds to me that some of you are concerned that you might not use a gun as legally as you profess.

It's all in your mind, Hoyt. I was talking about what criminals would do. I am not a criminal, and you can retract your sleazy insinuations any time now or just continue to wallow in the filth that is your stock-in-trade.

Where should the financial responsibility lie -- those that covet guns and profit from them.

Financial responsibility for what? A crimefighting technique that doesn't work? Who cares if it works as long as it's gun owners and manufacturers paying for it, right? Backdoor prohibitionism: anything to make gun ownership more difficult. That's the real motivation here, right?

I have nothing to fear from microstamping. It's still a stupid idea that's going to cost me and a lot of other people a bunch of money and fuss for nothing. Nothing. Got it?

[S_B_Jackson]

32. The California state police determination was that significant degredation occurred at <100 rounds..

or most shooters a normal trip to the range includes shooting 100-250 rounds. So the claim that it's "over a long time" is inaccurate.

Criminals already waste a fair amount of time trying to remove serial numbers from firearms...the process to alter a firing pin takes much less time, only a rudimentary knowledge of firearms, and little effort. Borrow your girlfriend's emory board she uses on her fingernails, a 8-10 passes in half that number of minutes, and Viola!, a non-microstamping firing pin.

[Hoyt]

34. I think the technology is much better than that.

The only reason a criminal -- who didn't buy the gun initially -- would file off M-S is so it can't be deemed stolen. Now, if you file it off, that would be a crime. And if you possess a gun with obliterated M-S, that's a crime. Besides, a filed off Microstamping still helps narrow down suspect population.

Truth is, you guys will oppose any gun laws.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. You believe many things that you cannot prove, and your posts here re: gun owners demonstrate it.

[Hoyt]

64. You are not willing to try anything that might help solve crimes if it impacts your guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. Once again, I need to remind you- I do not own a gun, and haven't for years.

Unlike you, I might add...

[S_B_Jackson]

76. California Highway Patrol determined that the technology is NOT better than that

as they were evaluating whether or not to adopt microstamping. They wanted it to work, but it did not.

AMT “Backup”, .380 Auto Semi-Automatic Pistol
The AMT firing pin was chosen for the defacement test due to the overall shallow firing pin impressions precluding the transfer of the radial bar code structures. One of the intentions of ID Dynamics for machining the radial bar code onto the firing pins was to allow for the transfer of potentially identifying characters in the event that the characters on the face of the firing pin were damaged or intentionally removed. The method of defacement for this firing pin was chosen to test when the alphanumeric characters and gear code structures were removed, whether or not the radial bar code structures would be transferred into the firing pin impression.

The rubbing of the firing pin for 30 seconds on the sharpening stone completely removed the alphanumeric and gear code structures while leaving the radial bar code structures intact. Of the ten rounds of ammunition test fired none of the impressions contained any of the encoding structures, except for one. Cartridge case number seven had two out of the nine radial bar code structures transfer, however they were very faint.

The defacement method was successful and it was documented that even with the removal of the encoding structures from the face of the firing pin the firing pin impressions were too shallow to allow for the transfer of the radial bar code structures. The transfer data and images of the defaced AMT 380 Auto firing pin and cartridge cases are illustrated in Appendix L.


Sig Sauer P229, .40 S&W Semi-Automatic Pistol
The Sig firing pin was chosen for defacement because the majority of the cartridge cases in the legibility study contained impressions of all three encoding structures. The method chosen for the obliteration of the encoding structures on this firing pin was intended to observe the transfer rate upon defacement of all three encoding formats.

The light peening of the encoding structures, for an overall time of 30 seconds, was a successful method of defacement. Through ten rounds of ammunition test fired, no alphanumeric characters were legible in the firing pin impressions. The gear code structures transferred with an average rate of 21%. At least one gear code structure was visible in each impression. Five out of the ten firing pin impressions contained 1 out of the eight radial bar code structures. The transfer data and images of the defaced Sig Sauer firing pin and cartridge cases are illustrated in Appendix L.

And I'm truly interested in how you think that a filed-off Microstamping - which results in an unmarked cartridge - "still helps now down suspect population"?

[spin]

10. Even you admit that criminals would dump the gun after the crime ...

Since this would undermine the value of requiring microstamping and since honest people are not a leading cause of gun violence, so I really can't see any real advantage in requiring this technology for new firearms.

"Law abiding folks" could also simply buy used firearms and not have to tamper with them in order to remove the technology.

Smith & Wesson started installing a safety lock on their firearms several years ago and many gun owners simply purchased used S&W firearms without the feature. Some simply disliked the cosmetic difference the lock made to the appearance of the weapon and others distrusted the reliability.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9EcEGGFJqf7zAtdZNc59vx4Zw7UthUSo_fXpblBgc8AR5Gsi0

[Hoyt]

12. No, you'd have the casing if left at scene and the database would allow police to track the gun

to some extent. Again, if it only works in a few cases, it is worth it to those who aren't afraid of having to explain who they sold it to; how it was stolen and not report; or just where they were the night of the crime. It also reduces the options of a "law-abiding" shooter who screws up, and can't find all the casings after shooting an unarmed teenager, etc.

[Meiko]

17. The serial number that is already on the gun will allow

it to be tracked via the manfacturer.

[Hoyt]

18. The serial number is not left at the scene when you run.

Unless you leave the gun there, which is not likely. What is left is a casing (assuming a revolver not used, or someone runs around and picks casings up). In any event, the microstamping doesn't have to work all the time, just a few times. And it will, though it may take decades to become really valuable as more guns have the technology.

Instead the gun obstructionists will stall it -- or similar proposals -- as long as the can. I guess they do it to protect themselves, which calls into question just how "law-abiding" they really are.

[Meiko]

21. And neither

is the microstamping technology if you remove it.

[Hoyt]

22. What percentage do you really think will be Totally removed?

If it's as high as 50%, there is still a significant usable microstamped population of guns. And, the 50% that might be completely removed, still tell us something that can help solve a crime.

[spin]

29. Anyone selling a firearm illegally will simply make sure ...

to defeat the microstanping technology before he sells it so the firearm can't be traced back to him. Either that or he will buy used firearms without the technology and sell them.

Also the greatest amount of violent crimes in our nation are committed by gang members. Since many if not most gangs are involved in drug smuggling they could simply smuggle firearms manufactured in foreign nations without the microstamping technology and use or sell them. The sale of smuggled firearms could prove to be a lucrative sideline.

FBI: Burgeoning gangs behind up to 80% of U.S. crime

By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
Criminal gangs in the USA have swelled to an estimated 1 million members responsible for up to 80% of crimes in communities across the nation, according to a gang threat assessment compiled by federal officials.

The major findings in a report by the Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center, which has not been publicly released, conclude gangs are the "primary retail-level distributors of most illicit drugs" and several are "capable" of competing with major U.S.-based Mexican drug-trafficking organizations.

***snip***

'Growing threat' on the move

The report says about 900,000 gang members live "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 are in U.S. prisons or jails.

"Most regions in the United States will experience increased gang membership … and increased gang-related criminal activity," the report concludes, citing a recent rise in gangs on the campuses of suburban and rural schools.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm

It would seem logical that if 80% of the crimes are caused by gang members that we should target gangs to reduce gun violence. It might also help if we could improve our educational system so that high school dropouts as well as graduates would have the skills to get good paying jobs and not have to make the choice between becoming hamburger flippers or joining a gang.

One thing which I have suggested many times is that we should legalize some drugs such as marijuana in order to reduce the profit motive for smuggling and dealing drugs.

The limited advantages that might exist if the technology was required show that microstamping would prove to be just one more "feel good" law. It would do little to correct the problem of gun violence. It would be similar to spraying the flames of a fire with an extinguisher rather than the base of the fire.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. Do you also plan to ban revolvers, brass catchers and replacement parts while you're at it?

What you want is a "beer keg law":

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x8906


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x362693#364001

We've seen the argument over large magazines before- with beer kegs.

I guess they've worked, especially here in Massachusetts. Most every account I've seen of underage drinking, drunk driving and

busted parties make no mention of beer kegs. Oh, beer and wine bottles galore, and 1.75s of Captain Morgan and cheap vodka- but no

beer kegs.


So those that want to ban large capacity magazines have one success to point at...

BTW, how are those magazine size restrictions you were touting in that thread going?

It's been a year and a half- surely you and the rest of the "disarm the public" crowd have gotten
what you wanted by now, amirite?

Seriously, you cannot make it any clearer that you and your ilk are out to 'punish the sinners'.

[Hoyt]

60. Are you going to carry a gun with a brass catcher. If so, you must be worried you might not use it

properly.

Like when you walk out the door with a gun strapped to your body, you haven't planned on "punishing" someone.

[Hoyt]

14. Intresting. Why would you need to purchase a gun made prior to "microstamping?" That worried

you might get caught.


Your statement: ""Law abiding folks" could also simply buy used firearms and not have to tamper with them in order to remove the technology."

Seriously, why are you guys so worried about microstamping? Sounds to me you guys might be afraid you'll commit a crime -- like shooting an unarmed teenager -- and need to run before you can grab your casings. Amazing.

I see no reason someone who really plans on remaining "law-abiding" would need to do that.

[hack89]

68. Same reasons people buy used cars.

Used guns are cheaper or you really want a discontinued model - new is not always better.

[Hoyt]

70. That's not what poster meant.

Poster I responded to said: "'Law abiding folks' could also simply buy used firearms and not have to tamper with them in order to remove the technology. "

If you are law-abiding, why would you need to avoid microstamping?

I think some of you are really concerned you might screw up like Zimmerman and need to flee without leaving a trace.

[hack89]

71. Because it is an unacceptable government intrusion into our privacy?

the government doesn't need to know what I own.

[Straw Man]

57. Typical.

Oh, so all you "law-abiding" gun owners will obliterate microstamping. That's nice.

Now, if you supposed "law-abiding" folks are planning to tamper with the microstamping -- that is worrisome. Also shows "law abiding" gun owners are not so friggin law-abiding.

Who said that here? Short answer: nobody.

You're making shit up again. I'm not surprised. It's what you do. It's pretty much all you do.

[Hoyt]

2. Source - General Counsel of Bererrta USA. Might as well cite NRA or

Free Republic, Stormfront, etc.

Sorry, poster above saw it first.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

5. If this microstamp...

...data is part of a blind database, I suppose I have no problem with it. Who maintains it? Who has access?

[Meiko]

15. Hoyt, C'mon will ya

There is no connection between Free Republic, Storefront and Beretta. If you know of one the rest us are not aware of we would like to see it.

[Hoyt]

16. Free Republic, Stormfront, NRA, etc., promote guns -- including Beretta.

They are also frequented by right wing gun zealots -- who are often bigots -- who make up the majority of the market for toting weapons, "tactical" weapons that get the gun culture so excited, etc.

Beretta and other manufacturers cater/pander to the gun needs/desires/fantasies of their market. They also pay off legislators to pass favorable laws.

[Meiko]

19. Beretta is involved

in R&D, marketing and manufacturing. You implied a connection between some named groups and beretta. Just because Beretta is mentioned in a post on a discussion forum doeS not mean there is a "connection" I would say you are correct with the NRA because Beretta advertises with them.

Do you have proof that Beretta has paid off any US legislators?

[Hoyt]

24. The yahoo who wrote editorial is speaking on behalf of Beretta.

Do you think he's objective?

[ileus]

25. He's a lawyer type...he has to look at all sides of the issue.

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. Yeah

especially the side that signs his paycheck.

[Hoyt]

27. Especially the fuckers that pay his salary.

Whoops, should have read reply that beat me to it. Must be true.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. While those trying to sell microstamping can be trusted implicitly, amirite?

Looks like you have two different standards for believeability- whether what someone says is what you want to hear, or not...



http://www.democraticunderground.com/117244039

New Study Proves Microstamping Technology Works


http://www.democraticunderground.com/117244039#post106

Not only that, one of the authors is Todd Lizotte, the inventor and patent-holder (?)

of microstamping - bit tough to call that an "independent study."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. If criminals will not alter the proposed microstamp firing pins, the expensive technology might work

They wouldn't do that, would they?

[ileus]

6. Good read, straight from the horses mouth.

Who better to correct the ranting of some anti lead study than a company that knows firearms and firearm technology.

[Hoyt]

8. Yea, and make their money from selling guns to yahoos who scarf them up.

Gun manufacturers are about as immoral as they come. Might as well lump them in with the military industrial complex that promotes wars.

[spin]

13. Of course firearms are NEVER used for legitmate self defense ...

or for hunting and target shooting.

[ileus]

28. And they have the M9 Military contract.

[Glassunion]

46. A link to the UC Davis study if anyone is interested.

http://extension.ucdavis.edu/masters/forensic%5Fscience/pdf/UCD-Microserial%20Number%20CPRC%20Report%20May%20April.pdf

[Tuesday Afternoon]

75. thanks for the link.

[Meiko]

77. Take a look at this video, it's short

It shows just how easy it is to circumvent the micro stamping scheme. This is just one type of gun.

&feature=player_detailpage

[slackmaster]

78. LOL! I wonder if Eugene Stoner made the original AR-15 firing pin from a double-headed nail.

Never work harder than you have to.

[Simo 1939_1940]

82. LOL is right!! Thanks for passing this along - I certainly will. NT