Proposal for the SOP change

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

I prefer adding a top level topic named "Firearms". This would be at the level of the "Justice and Public Safety" topic.

Under the "Firearms" topic two groups would be established:
- Firearms Policy
- Firearms Enthusiasts

Please vote.

I further propose to leave the existing link to Firearms Policy group under the Justice and Public Safety topic.

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[Marinedem]

1. Sounds good to me. NT

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

3. I'm not certain how...

...the FE topic would relate to JPS.

[Kaleva]

6. The discussion of gun safety & education would be in FE

The issue of proper training and handling of guns is a public safety concern.

[ileus]

13. Brilliant

[Clames]

7. I'd go along with the Two Groups proposal...

...as long as FE is a protected group. Anybody coming in with thinly veiled insults for gun owners or the usual wannabe RW troll hunter should be shown the door and quickly.

[Kaleva]

8. I agree with that.

[rrneck]

9. I'll vot for it

but I think the other SOP expansion is probably the best.

If there's going to be a Firearms Enthusiast group it would have to be protected.

[Hoyt]

10. So we can discuss Wham-O slingshots, machetes, etc. - howabout Lethal Weapons Policy and

Lethal Weapons Enthusiasts? I think the two groups make sense, but let's call it what it is.

[rrneck]

11. That protected group is looking better all the time.

[Hoyt]

14. Yeah, you guys need a bunker. Actually, I think the protected group

is a good idea. But, can you guys promise not to post policy, gun lobbying, NRA junk, or worse in the Lethal Weapons Enthusiasts section?

[Kaleva]

18. I'd be fine with that with the possible exception...

being able to discuss gun training and safety programs provided by various groups, including the NRA. But restrict whatever discussion there is about the NRA in FE to its safety programs. Any talk about the political arm of the NRA would go in the FP group.

[NewMoonTherian]

19. That's reasonable. Policy and gun lobbying belong in Policy, of course.

It depends on what kind of NRA junk you mean. If they publish an interesting review or technical article, I don't see why that shouldn't go in "Gun Enthusiasts". I think I understand what you were talking about, though.

[Hoyt]

21. Makes sense, although I think a disclaimer that NRA wants to defeat Obama and other

Democrats is in order.

[NewMoonTherian]

30. I would think so, but that's kind of at the discretion of the poster. n/t

[krispos42]

37. We really need a disclaimer that the NRA wants to defeat non-pro-gun politicians?

Really?


I bet you're the guy that also wants to put an ingredient list on a bottle of water.

[Hoyt]

38. So you support NRA leadership's efforts to defeat Obama?

[rrneck]

26. Hell no.

The funny thing about guns is that there are no real boundaries. The same guns can be used for sport or self defense. And most are. The only difference is that YOU will have to behave and contribute something of substance.

Shit, if I weren't so busy I'd run for host.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. NRA

The enthusiast group is where regular NRA stuff belongs. The policy group is where NRA-ILA stuff belongs. Those two shouldn't overlap.

[Kaleva]

31. I agree.

[gejohnston]

12. you mean like

crossbows, archery etc? Don't assume slingshots are toys.

[Hoyt]

15. I don't, I had one of those suckers and ball bearings. That's why I would want to discuss them in

Lethal Weapons Enthusiasts group.

[Trunk Monkey]

45. Since it's the Lethal Weapons enthusiasts group

Can we also discuss Joe Pesci, Danny Glover and Mel Gipson?

[ileus]

16. I think all things tactical....swords, knives, jo's, ect would be nice.

I'm just now learning the sword so it would be nice to talk with other aikido peeps.


Knives are always a subject of interest. Flashlights....

[Hoyt]

17. Knitting? Or, just how lethal do you want to go. We don't need Timmy McVeigh posting stuff.

[ileus]

20. Knitting doesn't sound that interesting.

Edged weapons, Martial Arts, Firearms..other life saving equipment of interest. The possibilities are endless really.


We could finally focus on what unites us rather than what divides us....Imagine true progress as we discuss things we all know and love without the politics of fear getting in the way.

[Hoyt]

22. I think the fact it's on DU makes Lethal Weapons political.

[ileus]

23. is the lounge always political?

Why can't equipment be discussed without combative argument?

If we're talking picking out a family fun time 22lr rifle why inject politics? There will be plenty of opportunities to argue policy in the first firearm forum. No reason to muck up hobbiest discussing a finely built firearms.

[Hoyt]

27. Some people's "gun hobby" is a bit too "tactical" for a site like this.

Talking a food 22 for shooting squirrels is one thing. Expressing great admiration for a gun made, marketed, and bought to enable one to kill people is another thing.

[Kaleva]

33. Well, the two rifles I have were specially made to kill people.

They are obsolete (for military purposes), surplus Mosin Nagant M91/30s. I don't hunt with them and haven't even fired them yet. I just got them because of the history behind them.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. I'm not so much interested in naming...

...the group(s) as I am in keeping the Policy group intact.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

28. As I understand...

...one of the issues relates to enthusiast posts making it to "latest threads". I don't quite understand all aspects of this issue so maybe someone could fill me in.

[Kaleva]

32. Everybody does have the "trash this group" option

Those who select it won't see any threads on the "Latest Thread" page from the group they trashed.

[SkatmanRoth]

34. I would prefer a slightly different name

The addition of a separate group where the minutia of guns is discussed ad nauseam is acceptable. People would understand the topics there, and avoid viewing if they were not so inclined to the subject matter.

I would like the Firearms Policy group to be named "RKBA laws and Constitutional Rights". Guns are not specifically named in the Second Amendment.

[DanTex]

35. One issue to resolve...

Looking at other top level topics (e.g. "Economy & Education", "Health", "Gender & Orientation"...), it doesn't seem that guns alone are significant enough to warrant a top-level topic of their own. And I'd guess the admins wouldn't want this -- after all, most DUers probably want to see guns have less prominence on DU, not more.

This would mean that "Firearms Enthusiasts" needs a home. I'd say Recreation is probably the right spot.

[DanTex]

36. Another thing...

Looks like pro-gunners want "Gun Enthusiasts" to be a safe haven. That's fine, but here's what I would request in return: no right-wing sources in "Gun Policy". Deal?

[Kaleva]

39. Admin is against expanding the SOP

but they did say that it's okay to gauge interest in forming a separate Firearms Enthusiast group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=117330

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

40. Thanks for the update.

I read that. A group placed anywhere that one could subscribed to would be good.

[Kaleva]

41. A proposed SOP for the Firearms Enthusiasts (FE) Group

The Firearms Enthusiast group serves as a safe haven to discuss topics related to personal gun use and ownership. Examples would be but not strictly limited to hunting, self-defense, target shooting, firearms technology and gunsmithing, collecting, and firearm safety and education. Discussions about gun control laws, the Second Amendment, and incidents involving the use of firearms for self-defense and to commit crime and violence are forbidden here.

Admin has decided not to allow an expansion of the Gun Control & RKBA group SOP but has given the green light to gauge interest in forming a separate Firearms Enthusiast Group.

[ManiacJoe]

42. Has there been a formal decision by the admins yet?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

43. Yes there has/no we can't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240116850#post19

[ManiacJoe]

44. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant the 2 group option.

Yes, the SOP change has been long since killed.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. Other than:

We think it would be a mistake to change the SOP of the Gun Control & RKBA group. But if you want to gauge interest in a separate Firearms Enthusiasts Group, you are welcome to do so.

I'm not aware of anything about an FE group. I'll let you know if I see anything.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. I think the protocol is to post the suggestion in Meta and if (at least) Ten DUers

post in that thread showing an interest (normally) they allow a group to form. Then the group suggests the SoP. I think that is how it works. I would like to see it be called Guns Enthusiast since this is Gun Control & RKBA. I think it is disingenuous to use the different terminology.

[ManiacJoe]

48. Already done last month.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=114798

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. That was discussion but, I do not see that as a Formal Proposal asking for Membership to a New Group

Looking for links to other Group Proposals for an example. Give me a minute.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. AsahinaKimi started the Asian Group this way --

I couldn't find the original thread in Meta where she asked people to post if they wanted to be members of the group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12501

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124026505