Gun violence targeted by doctors as a social disease

[SecularMotion]

•“Host” factors: What makes someone more likely to shoot, or someone more likely to be a victim. One recent study found firearm owners were more likely than those with no firearms at home to binge drink or to drink and drive, and other research has tied alcohol and gun violence. That suggests that people convicted of driving under the influence should be barred from buying a gun, Wintemute said.

•Product features: Which firearms are most dangerous and why. Manufacturers could be pressured to fix design defects that let guns go off accidentally, and to add technology that allows only the owner of the gun to fire it (many police officers and others are shot with their own weapons). Bans on assault weapons and multiple magazines that allow rapid and repeat firing are other possible steps.

•“Environmental” risk factors: What conditions allow or contribute to shootings. Gun shops must do background checks and refuse to sell firearms to people convicted of felonies or domestic violence misdemeanors, but those convicted of other violent misdemeanors can buy whatever they want. The rules also don’t apply to private sales, which one study estimates as 40 percent of the market.

•Disease patterns, observing how a problem spreads. Gun ownership — a precursor to gun violence — can spread “much like an infectious disease circulates,” said Daniel Webster, a health policy expert and co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research in Baltimore.

http://www.telegram.com/article/20120812/NEWS/108129860/1052

[shadowrider]

1. Today ends in a Y, so it must be time for another google dump n/t

[Bragi]

2. The root disease is paranoia and the irrational fear of others

I think anyone who is so afraid of others that they feel a need to carry lethal weapons with them at all times suffers from irrational fear of others.

The gun issue for me isn't about legality or constitutionality, it is trying to understand why some people are so afraid of others, especially unknown others, that they think need to be able to threaten or kill anyone, anytime.

For me, that is the real social disease behind gun culture.

[shadowrider]

3. Legal gun owners do not "think they need to be able to threaten or kill anyone, anytime"

Sheesh

[Bragi]

4. Your sig line makes my point better than I can. - NT

[shadowrider]

5. You don't like my sig line, fine. You're not the first to say that and I doubt you'll be the last.

However, I'll make the same bet with you I've made with others. Disprove it and I'll remove it.

But you can't, so I won't.

[geckosfeet]

9. Not trying to disprove anything but

there is an old saying,

I suppose it is tempting, , if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

...

Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding.

Law of the instrument

if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail

As a responsible gun owner I find your sig line offensive and arrogant - not that there is anything wrong with that.

[shadowrider]

14. Then I must be doing something wrong. For as many years as I've owned guns and carried

I have yet to use my "hammer" to treat "everything as if it were a nail".

I too am a responsible gun owner. I do NOT take my weapon into anyplace that specifically bars/bans them, including theaters, hospitals etc. I don't point it at anyone for any reason, I am exceptionally polite and don't live my life in fear. I don't brandish, threaten or imply. I carry and no one knows it. I will, however, bypass any restaurant that bans them and spend my money elsewhere.

[geckosfeet]

30. My concern is thinking of people as targets.

And if that is not what is implied in your sig line then please explain.

I work for a company whose policy prohibits firearms on it's grounds or at company functions. I don't agree with it but I comply. I do not consider my coworkers or myself as targets.

In general, I do not consider any human being as a target - whether they are in a gun free zone or not. Targets are what I shoot at at the range. And the range is certainly not a gun free zone.

[Callisto32]

33. It means some other people (think "active shooters") view people as targets,

and disarming everyone else via stupid "gun free zone" rules that only works on the folks NOT there to shoot the place up (kinda like how locks really only keep your friends out) and so when an active shooter type shows up, all the NOT there to shoot the place up folks become the targets.

Since gun free zones are often the places where people congregate in large-ish groups, they tend to be "target rich environments."

I thought that was perfectly clear.

[geckosfeet]

40. I always considered people shot in mass killings as crime victims.

And looking at them from the perspective of an active shooter I still see them as victims. I do not consider human beings targets. Perpetuating the idea dehumanizes people and legitimizes the idea that human beings are targets.

I do however, think that gun free zones should only be enforceable by federal, state or municipal government. Despite their policy, I can legally carry at work. But then legally, they could fire me.

[Callisto32]

41. I think we are talking past one another.

The point of the sig line is that disarming people who will not cause trouble anyway does nothing but make those people softer targets to those among us that are sick enough to view other people as targets.

It does NOT mean that the poster believes people to be targets.

Ergo, I do not understand why you find it so offensive.

[geckosfeet]

42. Well,,, I do think that I understand what your sig line means. And I find it offensive.

I am not a target. I a room full of people with no firearms, I am not a target.

In a room full of people with firearms, I am not a target.

In a room with one crazy person with a firearm shooting up the joint, I am not a target. I could be a victim, but I am not a target.

To try and explain this again, calling people targets dehumanizes them. Dehumanizing others, is part of the process of disassociating feelings from human beings.

Without getting too touchy feely here, treating someone as human is not a crime. It's a good thing. People appreciate it. They respond to it in a positive way. On the other hand, they will react in a negative way when they are dehumanized. Humans can sense when they are being used and treated as objects and not people. They may not be able to describe what is happening, or put their finger on it but they know that something is wrong.

It has always been my belief that in order to have an open dialog and communicate effectively with people (pro-regulation, anti-gun people for example) that there needs to be some level of understanding, trust and acceptance from both sides. Calling people targets is simply not an effective way of building that bridge.

[GreenStormCloud]

44. Would the following change to the sig line make you happy?

Insead of, "Designated gun free zones are nothing more than target rich environments", how about, "Designated gun free zones are nothing more than victim rich environments"? If that makes you happy, suggest it to him.

[Callisto32]

45. My sig line means "hurry slowly."

So, I don't even know what the hell you are talking about.

[Trunk Monkey]

36. I do not consider my coworkers or myself as targets.

but if a shooter ever shows up at your place of work he will

[Hoyt]

28. +1

[Missycim]

7. so all the

people that have gotten mugged (and wasn't carrying a gun), stabbed and or shot must feel good that they didn't have a irrational fear of others. Sorry crime happens so until you can stop every crime before it happens its my number one job to protect myself. If thats irrational then so be it.

[Bragi]

8. I'm sorry for your fear and paranoia

I hope someday you will be able to live a gun-free and fear-free life, like most people do. - B

[AnotherMcIntosh]

13. Like most people do? Then he'll be living in a gun-free zone other than Chicago.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. like Chicago . . .?

[Missycim]

18. whos said

"even paranoids have enemies"?

[Bragi]

22. Infectious disease happens too

The reality of infectious disease doesnt prevent sensible people from going about their lives without having to wear hazmat suits whenever they leave home.

Similarly, despite the existence of crime, most people live their lives without thinking they need to carry lethal force with them at all times.

Its all about having a sense of proportion.

[Missycim]

26. i agree

and since I have dont both I know wearing the suit is a thousand times worse, besides no one knows if I am CCing unlike a hazmat suit.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. It's obvious...

...that the real problem of those committing robberies and home invasions is their paranoia.

Possibly there wasn't enough milk in that big bowl of illogic you had for breakfast?

[Reasonable_Argument]

21. As others have said

I carried for years, in the process of renewing my CCW now as soon as I can find a class, and I didn't walk around in mortal terror. It's just a tool, like a leatherman, you carry around and mostly don't think about but it's there if you need it. You ascribe a mindset to something you know nothing about.

[Remmah2]

34. That sort of defines the function of a body guard?

Are people who need body guards irrational?

[PavePusher]

38. "they think need to be able to threaten or kill anyone, anytime"

And you don't need a gun to do that. But it sure helps to defend oneself from it.

I have to ask: Have you volunteered to provide security for anyone outside your immediate family? If not, why should you have any legal or moral standing to question them providing for themselves?

[cleanhippie]

39. The root disease is paranoia and the irrational fear of inanimate objects.

I think anyone who is so afraid of inanimate objects that they feel a need to ban them at all times suffers from irrational fear of inanimate objects.

The gun issue for me isn't about legality or constitutionality, it is trying to understand why some people are so afraid of inanimate objects, especially unknown inanimate objects, that they think need to be able to ban inanimate objects, anytime.

For me, that is the real social disease behind gun-phobic culture.

[BigAlanMac]

6. Question for doctors:

Isn't one of the main ways to make a body immune to a disease by inoculating it with either a weakened form of, or a similar but non-dangerous strain of the pathogen?

What better way to immunize the society against the plague of armed felons than to inject into that society a large dose of armed law abiding citizens?

[safeinOhio]

10. More cigarette smoking

Will cure lung cancer too?

[Bragi]

11. Gun culture is a chronic disease, not an infectious one

Thusly does your analogy with vaccine theory break down.

[Missycim]

19. how is that so?

Violent crime has been dropping for years, so if your flawed analogy was correct it should be going up.

[hack89]

31. Yet in America the patient is getting healthier

how is that possible?

[ileus]

12. Ah....more all gunowners are precriminals talk.

MikeB would be proud...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. I wonder how many of those Drs have guns in their own homes? Every Dr I know is a gun owner.

[shadowrider]

24. Don't you know Drs. have education and are responsible? Not like the every day riff raff. n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. but, but, And I quote from one of our more infamous anti2Aers --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=191239

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. The tools of the trade.

The ability to use a tool is one of the reasons that humans dominate the world. Tools allow one's efforts to be expanded. A lever acts as a force multiplier. There are lots of useful tools out there. Wheels, hammers, duct tape... are all a great help to everyday tasks. A gun is also just a tool.

The next step here is to recognize that the second most often way to use a tool is to misuse the tool. As good of a job as that duct tape did keeping the rain out of my car with the broken window, it wasn't a good fix. You can't see through duct tape. A firearm can also be a short term fix for an exigent problem.

When you perceive that the area where you live or work has a crime problem, don't even begin thinking that the solution to your problem is buying a gun. A gun will not solve this problem any more than an umbrella will cure climate change. The old saying is 'If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail'.

Another example of tool misuse is expecting good and lasting results from treating gun violence with "infection control" measures.

[Remmah2]

35. Pre ban tools.

[img][/img]

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

37. A real assault hammer

[aikoaiko]

23. Interesting analogy, but it would help if the contributors knew something about firearms.

From the article: •“Host” factors: What makes someone more likely to shoot, or someone more likely to be a victim. One recent study found firearm owners were more likely than those with no firearms at home to binge drink or to drink and drive, and other research has tied alcohol and gun violence. That suggests that people convicted of driving under the influence should be barred from buying a gun, Wintemute said.

Obvious fact not reported: Sounds like the problem is alcohol. Maybe you should ban that first. Oh year that worked so well for the prohibitionists.

From the article: •Product features: Which firearms are most dangerous and why. Manufacturers could be pressured to fix design defects that let guns go off accidentally, and to add technology that allows only the owner of the gun to fire it (many police officers and others are shot with their own weapons). Bans on assault weapons and multiple magazines that allow rapid and repeat firing are other possible steps.

Obvious fact not reported: All firearm designed are vetted by the ATF.


From the article: •“Environmental” risk factors: What conditions allow or contribute to shootings. Gun shops must do background checks and refuse to sell firearms to people convicted of felonies or domestic violence misdemeanors, but those convicted of other violent misdemeanors can buy whatever they want. The rules also don’t apply to private sales, which one study estimates as 40 percent of the market.

Obvious fact not reported: Gun shops DO background checks on all their firearm sales. I see no or little resistance to opening the NICS to private sellers. Most private sales/transfers are between friends and family and not gun shows.

•Disease patterns, observing how a problem spreads. Gun ownership — a precursor to gun violence — can spread “much like an infectious disease circulates,” said Daniel Webster, a health policy expert and co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research in Baltimore.

Obvious fact not reported: Lots of things spread like diseases.

[shadowrider]

25. To add, modern day firearms don't go off "accidentally". Someone HAS to pull the trigger. n/t

[sarisataka]

29. The fallacy that exposes the agenda

Each topic could be nitpicked but one is a dead giveaway.

Disease patterns, observing how a problem spreads. Gun ownership — a precursor to gun violence — can spread “much like an infectious disease circulates,” said Daniel Webster, a health policy expert and co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research in Baltimore.

Gun ownership — a precursor to gun violence- Like HIV is a precursor to AIDS. They are not targeting gun violence as it is gun ownership that they truly have issue with

much like an infectious disease circulates- this makes me seriously question the speaker's medical credentials

Infectious diseases, also known as transmissible diseases or communicable diseases comprise clinically evident illness (i.e., characteristic medical signs and/or symptoms of disease) resulting from the infection, presence and growth of pathogenic biological agents in an individual host organism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease
Gun ownership is not spread by pathogens, is not an infection, and has no characteristic medical signs and/or symptoms of disease.

These failures show that they are pushing a political position hiding behind a smokescreen of medical hokum. It is shameful that doctors claiming to be concerned for the social cost of gun violence will abuse their position in an attempt to advance an anti-gun agenda. It hurts what they claim to be concerned with diverting funds and time that could be used to actually study social aspects of gun violence and maybe actually come up with real ideas to reduce violence. It also further polarizes the issue so as to make any sort of advancement or compromise on the related issues even less likely.

[Remmah2]

32. Trust me I'm a doctor.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=doctor+sells+drugs&oq=doctor+sells+drugs&gs_l=news-cc.12..43j43i400.2547.7938.0.9438.18.6.0.12.12.0.63.330.6.6.0...0.0...1ac.RQFVpbWjV5s#hl=en&gs_nf=1&tok=ITYSIttrR6DF3XOk-T8FfQ&ds=n&pq=doctor%20sells%20drugs&cp=15&gs_id=p&xhr=t&q=doctor+arrested&pf=p&gl=us&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&oq=doctor+arrested&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=55fe37584f341779&biw=1280&bih=822

And my wife wonders why I'm opposed to getting a vasectomy. I trust my nuts to no one.

[Simo 1939_1940]

43. The "epidemic of violence" is in fact a pandemic of propaganda.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html

"And there is a sense in which violence is a public health problem. So let me illustrate the limitations of this line of reasoning with a public-health analogy. After research disclosed that mosquitos were the vector for transmission of yellow fever, the disease was not controlled by sending men in white coats to the swamps to remove the mouth parts from all the insects they could find. The only sensible, efficient way to stop the biting was to attack the environment where the mosquitos bred.

Guns are the mouth parts of the violence epidemic. The contemporary urban environment breeds violence no less than swamps breed mosquitos. Attempting to control the problem of violence by trying to disarm the perpetrators is as hopeless as trying to contain yellow fever through mandible control."

Criminologist James Wright