NRA enabled bullets-by-mail used by Colo. shooting suspect

[SecularMotion]

The man accused of the Colorado movie-theater shooting amassed his ammunition stockpile with help from a 26-year-old law that the National Rifle Association hailed at the time as its "greatest legislative milestone."

The 1986 measure made two dozen changes to gun regulations, including lifting a ban on interstate sales of ammunition to consumers, allowing mail-order purchases and, eventually, Internet sales. The law, called the Firearms Owners' Protection Act, also allowed dealers to sell weapons at gun shows and made it easier to cross state lines with firearms.

Passage of the act, and the failure of gun-control advocates to repeal it in the decades since, illustrates the power of the NRA-led gun-rights movement over national firearms policy. The Colorado mass shooting, in which police say the suspect purchased 6,000 rounds of ammunition on the Internet, has prompted calls for legislation to limit mail-order sales.

"It's time to stop, take stock, hold hearings and expose the issues," said former Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., who backed the gun legislation in 1986 and now says allowing mail-order sales may have been a mistake. "Internet sales should at least be subject to the same background checks and scrutiny that is given to gun purchases."

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/us/nra-enabled-bullets-by-mail-used-by-colo-shooting-suspect-647635/#ixzz24BGurYNp

[holdencaufield]

1. Are there any studies...

... linking the size of a person's ammunition inventory with their likelihood of committing violent acts? Would someone be less likely to commit a crime with a gun if they had say -- 2,000 rounds? Or, 200 rounds? Is ammunition purchased Amazon-style over the web more likely to be used in a crime than ammunition purchased over the counter at Wal Mart?

I would really like to see those studies. Because Internet ammunition retailers provide a greater selection and lower pricing that the local gun shop. I would be interested if there is a reason why law-abiding shooters must be deprived of modern marketing techniques.

[Andrew08]

7. I'd be interested to see it

I have over 4,000 rounds in my closet because it's cheaper to buy in bulk, but I'm not going to go shooting anybody. I have guns for personal protection and sport (targets, I'm not really into hunting). People are going to try anything to feel safer, which for an unfortunate amount of people means taking guns away or trying to limit our access to ammunition or make them too expensive to own, but I can honestly say that I've never felt safer than when I'm carrying a sidearm (it's licensed, don't worry)

[TruthAnalyzed]

14. Would be nice to see

... but I doubt there would be a correlation, it's probably more likely to be a negative correlation. People that buy lots of ammo tend to either be thrift-minded, for the savings, or spend a lot of time at the range, again for the savings.

Honestly, how many rounds do these guys ever manage to shoot anyway? Anything over, maybe a few hundred, really can't be used in these kinds of situations.

In my family, we used to go out shooting our .22s for fun all the time. Our dad, and 6 boys, and we could go through a lot of ammunition in an afternoon. None of us ever shot anyone though.

[4th law of robotics]

17. He had over 6000 rounds

but used fewer than a 100 in the shooting.

People like to argue that if he'd been limited to perhaps half that amount (so 3000) there would have been half as many casualties.

Some people are not so great at math.

[holdencaufield]

23. "Some people are not so great at math. "

That is why we have casinos.

[samsingh]

26. i think what we've tried to say is that bulk ammunition purchases should set off a flag

coupled with the health care workings warnings, perhaps the police could have stopped the murderer from using his guns.

sarcasm on
- but, of course, flagging such transactions would warn the government about transactions made by law abiding citizens - forget about the lives that could be saved (see next point)
- where is the study that shows the police arresting him would have stopped him from killing the people in the theatre?

- more guns and ammo for everyone no matter how unstable you are.
sarcasm off

[gejohnston]

33. arrest him for what?

red flags does not mean violating any laws. A health care worker "warning" is not the same as being ruled incompetent by a judge. A sale being reported, but legal is not cause for arrest.
The cops pick him up for that, they would get sued for false arrest. Even then, you would be talking about a federal law, APD would not be notified, the ATF would go looking for him. They would get busted for false arrest because no crime had been committed.

Seriously, did you think this through or clueless about how the system works?

[samsingh]

42. i can't be clueless because that sob killed alot of innocent people

i'm trying to find a solution instead of saying
'o well'

the constitutional interpretation of a bunch of bought supreme court justices (sic) says nothing can be done about gun violence EXCEPT to buy more guns.

you apparently would like to wait for a nut to kill innocent people AND then be locked up.

[X_Digger]

45. It's called probable cause / due process / reasonable suspicion..

It's a fundamental tenet of our system of government.

If you're not familiar with it, I suggest you study up on the matter.

[samsingh]

52. i suggest you look into the Patriot Act and understand how the fundamental tenet is really working

[gejohnston]

61. so you are supporting the PATRIOT Act?

Wow, that is very unliberal of you. Are you for Bloomburg's race based stop and frisk too?

[samsingh]

69. stop putting words in my mouth. i said look at what's on the books.

[X_Digger]

65. So if government is stepping on rights in one place / way, you're cool with doing it again?

My how.. *cough* progressive.

[gejohnston]

48. I'm not talking about the 2A

I'm talking about the fourth and fifth.

No, but that is how the system works. The movie Minority Report is a si-fi, not a documentary

[4th law of robotics]

35. Bulk ammo purchases being defined as . . . ?

He used fewer than 100 rounds.

100 rounds is not a bulk purchase.

[samsingh]

43. but he bought a lot more

[holdencaufield]

46. I buy condoms by the dozen ...

... doesn't make me a rapist.

[samsingh]

50. but it would presumably mean that you intend to use them otherwise you're just weird

[DrDan]

59. I think buying ammunition in bulk and buying condoms in bulk go hand-in-hand (so to speak)

the look-at-me syndrome . . . look at all the shooting I can do

[holdencaufield]

74. Yes, I do ... eventually

And ... in a legal way. That applies to my condoms and my ammo.

[ManiacJoe]

49. But he left them at home.

What does it matter the number of rounds not with him?

[samsingh]

51. the point is that a large volume purchase was another flag that should set of warning signs.

[ManiacJoe]

57. How big is "large volume"?

Do we know what his purchase sizes were?

A 1000-round case is not a large volume by most standards.

[4th law of robotics]

58. If ammo sales of that size were prohibited he wouldn't have done it

so there would be no red flag.

And he would have killed . . . exactly the same number of people.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Warnings that he's... frugal?

Likes to buy in bulk? WTF is wrong with 6k rounds of ammo? Hell, I have more than that. If I had the spare cash kicking around, I'd buy in 1000 round lots or larger as well.

Those of us who shoot, go through ammo.

[4th law of robotics]

56. Ok, so if he'd be limited to only the hundred he used

then that would have saved how many lives?

[Callisto32]

2. Blah blah blah.

Used to be able to order a rifle out of the Ward's catalog......

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. The citation is factual incorrect in many ways

Typical for the media these days

[X_Digger]

4. It didn't work then, it wouldn't work now..

http://harrislawoffice.com/content/areas_of_practice/federal_firearms/legislative_history/FOPA%20House%20Report%2099-495.pdf

In 1986, the head of the ATF had this to say:

"The Bureau and the Treasury Department have recognized that recordkeeping requirements for ammunition have no substantial law enforcement value."

[Hoyt]

5. That was 1986, lots of things have changed.

[X_Digger]

8. The (purported) value of the data hasn't.

Please enlighten us how tracking the 3 billion (that's 'b') rounds of ammunition sold each year would have actual value.

Other than making the process more onerous, and likely more expensive- which I know is your unstated goal- law enforcement saw no value in such tracking for the 18 years the previous regulations were in place.

18 years, and not an identified benefit.

[Missycim]

24. X do you think you'll get an

answer any different then his normal nonsense? Here will be his reply (if any) NRA is evil, Tbaggers are racist etc.

[X_Digger]

25. No, but it demonstrates just how little sense he makes- he can't even answer a basic question. n/t

[samsingh]

27. i wonder why banks report financial transactions above $10k? there must be some value for it?

[X_Digger]

32. 18 years of tracking such data.. no value.

Purchasing ammo over the internet isn't prima facie evidence of jack shit.

And remind me, when did banking become a constitutional right?

[samsingh]

41. perfect - this is the red herring in the argument

point 1:

- is something effective in curbing gun violence?
- we find an example of something that is being done to stop crime (e.g. identify suspicious financial transactions. so why not try it elsewhere?)

this always leads to the circular argument of constitutional rights see Point 2

point 2:
any good idea to curb gun violence is rejected because of the blanket constitutional right.

point 1 always leads to 2, 2 goes back to 1, and innocent people keep getting killed.

[X_Digger]

44. We tried it, it had no effect.

You can theorize all you like, but we had 18 years to test the theory- reality intruded.

[samsingh]

53. that's crap

see my point 1. after some stats come out that validate gun control works (only look at all the other industrialized countries in the world), I'm sure you'll jump to point 2.

[gejohnston]

60. their gun control laws have nothing to do with their murder rates

if gun laws were that important, why would they not work equally well in less industrialized countries? Why are there countries with stricter gun laws than most European countries have much higher murder rates than we do? Mexico, Brazil, Jamaica, Belize for starters?

[X_Digger]

66. How is it crap? We tried it, it had no value.

The fact that your little theory was proven to have no effect is a hard fact to face, I'm sure.

It doesn't change the reality.

Oh, and nice post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. ('After this, because of this').

Pick a country with more stringent gun control, and let's see what their crime rates were pre- and post- gun control implementation. Unless you can point to a drop in the metrics, there's no correlation. (Hint, you'll lose.)

[samsingh]

68. of course you haven't considered that many countries have had strict gun control

so have never descended into the madness being perpretated here.

[X_Digger]

71. Even before they had gun control, their rates were magnitudes apart.

A good comparison is late 1800's NYC compared to the same time in London.

Neither country had substantive gun control, yet NYC's homicide rate was five times that of London.

[samsingh]

72. interesting - i'll do some research around that - i wonder why

[X_Digger]

73. It's cultural, but sociologists and criminologists can't pin it down

For every theory, there's a study proving it, and another disproving it.

Heck, our *non*-gun homicide rate is higher than many european countries *total* homicide rate.

[Simo 1939_1940]

67. Actually, liberal criminologists feel/felt that your "theory" is crap.

James Wright & (the late) Peter Rossi informed President Jimmy Carter that their was no evidence that gun restriction reduced gun crime.

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Gun-Weapons-Violence-America/product-reviews/0202303063/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Dr. Gary Kleck (lifelong liberal Dem) believes that firearms have a null effect on gun crime - with the benefits of defensive gun use offsetting the negative effects of criminal use.

[samsingh]

70. that's their opinion

[gejohnston]

36. tax and money laundering

they report it, and the IRS and the USSS look for patterns. Just like the ATF does when you buy two pistols the same day. If I make one transaction over that amount, the Secret Service does not show up with a warrant for money laundering. If I deposit $9999 every day for weeks, the bank will probably flag it and have the USSS look into it.
Same thing applies, the one time purchase would not be noticed.

[holdencaufield]

47. OK -- If a private citizen ...

... purchases more than 10,000 rounds in a single transaction, make him sign his name.

Oh wait, when you purchase ammunition via direct marketing -- you HAVE to give all your credit card and address details. Problem solved.

[Atypical Liberal]

22. Yeah, like the violent crime rate for starters.

Just keeps on going down.

[FBaggins]

6. So?

Was it some unusual ammo type that couldn't be purchased at the store down the street?

[X_Digger]

9. Of course not. It's all theater of the absurd. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

10. Actually it is bullets by UPS, not USPS.

UPS are the guys with the brown trucks. USPS is United States Postal Service. You can't send ammo through the mail, it is a prohibited item.

I have purchased ammo over the internet and I don't see what all the fuss is about. It was cheaper and saved me the gas and time of a trip to a gun shop.

Of course, I am well aware that the real desire of the OP is a complete ban on all civilian gun ownership.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. UPS?

I'm sure there's a "brown shirt" joke in there somewhere; I'm just not in the mood to find it.

[samsingh]

28. wow you're a mind reader too

[GreenStormCloud]

38. In his posts he speaks his mind.

Doesn't take a mind reader to know that he is profoundly anti-gun. It quickly becomes obvious.

[samsingh]

30. actually, my read is that the OP is trying to find ways to save lives

[GreenStormCloud]

39. He is doing a very poor job of it. N/T

[AtheistCrusader]

63. In that case, he'd have to ban transactions on ammo of lots smaller than 100 rounds.

Because yanno...

[ileus]

11. I suppose they don't have walmart stores in Colorado...

Supporters and opponents of gun control are debating whether restrictions on Internet sales could have prevented the July 20 shooting in Aurora, Colo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So these people assume that internet sales are the only way to get ammo?




Internet sales should at least be subject to the same background checks and scrutiny that is given to gun purchases."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So these people assume one has to pass a background check and some kind of scrutiny to buy ammo as a physical address?

No one, No where ever asks if you're legally allowed to buy ammo. Once in a while a walmart person will ask it the ammo is for a handgun but that's maybe once a year or less.

[virginia mountainman]

12. Lets see, had 6,000 on hand...

Used 100 or so....

Now their talk of ammo restrictions... LOL I wonder what is next, restricting chicken sandwiches because a recent shooter had a few on him when HE went on his spree??

It is absolutely no wonder why we continue to dominate the debate, when the loyal opposition can't stop wetting themselves over things that end up not mattering one bit.

[Jenoch]

13. Are you in

favor or against the sale of ammunition via the internet?

[rl6214]

15. I am going to say he is all for internet sales of ammo...

since he/she never posts any comments when they make their google dumps.

[4th law of robotics]

16. So this horrible law allowed gun-massacres to be committed easily and yet . . .

it only can be traced to one in 26 years?

[virginia mountainman]

18. And played no significant part in the ONE it WAS traced too..

LOL no wonder they are becoming more and more irrelevant.

[samsingh]

29. the Norway massacre as well.

[4th law of robotics]

34. I didn't realize the NRA held sway in Norway.

[gejohnston]

37. which as to do with what?

I have an older German made pistol that I bought a couple of spare magazines from a Canadian supplier. To make this the perfect analogy, since he murdered a kids in a liberal youth group, picture this scenario: If I use that pistol to massacre a group of Tbaggers or Young Republicans, would you blame:
The German gun industry or Canadian laws allowing handgun magazines be sold online?

[AtheistCrusader]

64. By all means, let them repeal it.

I'd like to buy a brand new fully automatic weapon.

[HALO141]

19. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the guy that

comes in and only wants to buy 9 rounds.

[petronius]

21. This is just "Gotta Do Something!!1!" nonsense:

Limits on Internet ammunition sales could have bought time for someone to raise suspicion over Mr. Holmes's purchases, Mr. Oberstar said.

They recorded his info when he bought the firearms, and no alarm was raised.

He passed the background check when he purchased the guns, and no alarm was raised.

His name and address was recorded every time he made a purchase with a credit card (assuming he did) and when things were shipped to him - no red flags went up.

The school psychiatrist actually made a report, and nothing was done.

So, how could any reasonable person believe that a ban on internet ammo sales, and/or a requirement to record buyers' names, might have prevented the murders, when none of the above raised an eyebrow?

That said, I don't know that I'd really care if someone wrote down my name or ran it through NICS for each purchase (and it might occasionally find someone who became ineligible since their last firearm purchase) as long as it didn't add expense or cause undue delay, but I see no serious likelihood that it would actually do any good...

[bongbong]

31. The gun relgionists needed this law

Since if they ran out of bullets at home, they'd be too scared to walk out the door and buy more ammunition.

They'd end up starving since they would be too scared to go to the supermarket!

[ManiacJoe]

40. If you keep this up,

you posts may reach the same level as Hoyt's.

[samsingh]

55. the entire world is about guns and ammo

[ileus]

54. Only in my dreams could I afford 6k rounds of centerfire.

At the rate ammo is going up we should all be buying now, it's never going to get cheaper than today....tomorrow....Saturday.