Should Parents Whose Children are Killed Playing with Guns be Prosecuted?

[mikeb302000]

MPR News

The case of an accidental shooting death of a 2-year-old boy is in the hands of the Hennepin County Attorney's office. Authorities are considering what charges, if any, to bring against a Minneapolis father who they say left a loaded handgun within reach of his children. Police say the toddler was killed when his 4-year-old brother was playing with the gun.

These kinds of cases are tough calls for prosecutors, who say they often struggle to strike a balance between justice and compassion.

An MPR News analysis of state court data shows prosecuting parents for leaving guns around kids is rare, but not unprecedented in Minnesota.

Since 2001, about 85 people in the state have been convicted of one of two potential charges in this kind of case. Both apply to adults who leave unsecured, loaded firearms within reach of a child. The more serious charge considers this an act of child endangerment or neglect, because it could "substantially harm" or lead to the death of the child.

About a third of all of these convictions were prosecuted in Hennepin County.

Only one-third seems consistent with what we read in the grizzly reports. But, it seems to me they have the compassion angle backwards. By prosecuting the ones whose children die or are seriously injured and giving a pass to the others they've got it exactly backwards.

The negligent gun owner whose child dies or is crippled for life deserves the compassion not the one whose kid is only slightly injured. So the whole thing doesn't make sense.

What should happen is everyone of these people should be charged and if convicted lose their gun rights. The most serious cases should receive compassion concerning jail time, that's all.

What do you think? Please leave a comment.
Cross posted at Mikeb302000

[gejohnston]

1. depends on where the gun came from

if the kid stumbled across a gang's community gun, then no. Some states, like Florida and California, have safe storage laws. You might get a negligence case out of it. I think there should be PSAs about safe storage.

[HALO141]

18. If their child is already

injured/dead there's nothing you can do to them to hurt them any more.

I wholeheartedly agree with the PSA's on safe storage.

[mikeb302000]

25. How about if the parents go to jail and lose their guns? nt

[quakerboy]

32. There should be laws about safe storage

People are lazy. Even well meaning people. All guns should be properly secured. Not just in a specific circumstance, not only a problem if a kid happens to shoot his brother. As a matter of course.

[mikeb302000]

41. Agreed nt

[Jenoch]

47. This shooting happened in Minnesota.

For many years there has been a law in Minnesota requiring guns to be locked up in homes where there are children living with ammunition stored separately.

[samsingh]

2. i think the manufactures should be sued for not making guns childproof

[ehrenfeucht games]

50. Absolutely! (nt)

[aikoaiko]

54. What would make the firearm child proof?

[Siwsan]

3. Absolutely they should be prosecuted

If a parent is so irresponsible as to make it in any way possible for their child to get ahold of a LOADED GUN, they need to be held to strict and direct accountability. If the child is injured or killed, or injures or kills another, the responsiblity is directly tied to that parent. If not for their irresponsible behavior, that death or injury would not have occured. The degree of prosecution should equal the degree of injury but revoking their permit should be the first step.

[Recursion]

4. They are, depending on the circumstances

Negligence is negligence, and both civil and criminal liability can attach.

[mikeb302000]

26. "Can" but often isn't. nt

[Tempest]

5. Absofuckinglutely!

If you leave a gun out where a child can find it, it's negligence.

If a child is harmed by the gun, it's aiding and abetting.

If a child is killed by the gun, it's manslaughter.

Period.

[Common Sense Party]

22. And of course the same thing applies to household toxins, swimming pools, bathtubs,

matches and gasoline, knoves, prescription pills, etc. etc.

Right?

[ZombieHorde]

30. I would say yest to those, except for bathtubs.

If you rent an apartment, you often don't have much control over how you can manipulate it, and bathtubs are not something you can store on the top shelf of your closet.

If you leave your baby in the tub while you go out to check your mail and then chat with your neighbor for a few minutes, then that is negligent. That is different than just leaving an empty bathtub hanging out in your bathroom.

[Tempest]

46. It does for swimming pools, I know that

A homeowner was successfully prosecuted in my city last summer for not locking their gate and having a neighborhood kid drown in their pool.

[Clames]

6. Be nice if you ever actually read what you post.

Read and properly understand.

Only one-third seems consistent with what we read in the grizzly reports. 

The statistic here applies to the number of cases Hennepin County handles out of the total occurring in the state. That is all. Why you deliberately misrepresent the facts of these articles is anyone's guess but it seems to happen much more than one-third.

[mikeb302000]

27. What are you talking about?

What happens in Hennipen County is about consistent with what we read in the news nation-wide. Where exactly is there misrepresentation?

[Clames]

37. No, it isn't.

You don't even understand what was stated with that particular statistic and yet you think you can apply it on a national scale. Fail.

[mikeb302000]

42. So you think most people who allow gun accidents are prosecuted? nt

[Clames]

45. No and that makes sense since the majority result in self injury.

You obviously have little understanding of how laws work in this country nor have you read much on injury statistics.

[Kolesar]

52. Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA, 396 posts in the last 90 days (96% of total posts) ... eom

[Clames]

61. Your favorite group too.

But I'm sure you think you had a point here....

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. IMHO...

...once you've demonstrated and been convicted of negligence that causes or significantly contributes to a child's injury or death, you should forever lose your right to own. One caveat, I would allow those who attend courses on safety and proper parenting to petition for their rights to be restored but only when they demonstrate (to a judge) the need for the gun. For example, if you live rural and NEED to hunt due to financial circumstances or operate a farm and face poisonous snakes or other hazards, you can work to regain your rights but your needs and performance should be reviewed every 3 years.

[quakerboy]

33. Um

Just thinking out loud here, but I am pretty sure no one in their right mind takes a gun for use on poisonous snakes. A shovel is a far better choice, by my recollection of living in an area with rattlers.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

35. Experience trumps hearsay....

...or at least that's what I've heard.

I've never shot anything moving so you're probably right. I've read of folks who've used a shotgun. So where did you live?

[quakerboy]

39. Edge of the prairie

in colorado. We had a few show up in neighborhood back yards. Shovel was usually the implement of choice to make sure they went away and didn't interact with any kids. Shotgun would probably work, but i still think a shovel is a lower cost, higher reliability/versatility solution to interacting with dangerous snakes, if you are in a situation where that is likely.

I did run into one while in possession of a gun, while out shooting targets with my dad, as a kid. Stepped right over it before hearing the rattle. I froze. it rattled. I was determined if it got me, I would get it too, though in reality the likelyhood of hitting it, even at point blank, was pretty low. Then it vanished down its hole, and I headed back to the car, somewhat determined to be more aware of my surroundings in the future. Not sure who was more scared
Prairie

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

40. One of my wiser instructors...

...always said, "If you want to learn, go to the source." As someone with firsthand experience, I'd figure you're about the most reliable source for such info. Having thought more about it, I'd say trying to hit a snake with a shotgun would be chancy with the added risk of shooting a bystander. If the long gun is all you have, I guess it might be best to use it as a club.

I remember being told to carry a walking stick when hiking in heavy woods or tall grass.

It's been a while. Thanks.

[slackmaster]

8. It's a state law issue

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. Almost...

...all firearm laws are/should be state issues.

[ileus]

9. define children and playing.

[TheMadMonk]

57. Anything, right, anything at all to shift blame away...

...from RESPONSIBLE gun owners.

For you mate the oxy is superfluous.


Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA, 521 posts in the last 90 days (71% of total posts)

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Well, you mucked up the facts a bit.

But I do believe negligent parents who allow children to access firearms should be held responsible. Absolutely.

And they should be held so EQUALLY.

Two normal civilian parents in Tacoma recently did this, and went to jail for it.
In nearby Maple Valley, an off duty police officer left a gun in the cup holder, got out of his car with the kids still in it (illegal), and one kid got out of his car seat, got ahold of the gun and shot the other kid. No jail time.

[mikeb302000]

28. What was mucked up? nt

[jeepnstein]

12. Do you want to sit on that jury?

I'm not so sure I would.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. Mikey would love it. He is that bloodthirsty.

[Kolesar]

53. He is that bloodthirsty.?

[dballance]

31. I'd be happy to sit on that jury

When an abusive spouse or family member kills another family member and then shows remorse later we don't typically show them much compassion for their loss. Prosecutors often charge them with the maximum offense allowed.

A parent who negligently allows a deadly weapon to get into the hands of a toddler is just as guilty. Perhaps if they were all charged with manslaughter it might make other parents think twice about what they do with their loaded guns.

And yes, the same rules should apply for toxins in the house. A responsible parent should make sure bleach or rat poison is not accessible by toddlers. There are a number of safety devices sold at places like Babies are Us to help secure cabinets and closets from young children. So this is not some unknown danger.

[DookieMonster]

13. How about accidental drownings?

Parents who forget to cover their pools should be charged in the event that their child stumbles into their pool and drown. How come we aren't doing anything about this? Is a child dying by a firearm more tragic than a child drowning in an unsecured pool?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

14. They are both tragedies.

The difference is intent.

[gejohnston]

17. same intent

leave a loaded gun unsecured, leave a swimming pool unsecured. Same difference. Pool deaths are more common, accidental gun deaths get the press.

[DookieMonster]

19. Spam deleted by bluesbassman (MIR Team)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. negligence is negligence.

[Eleanors38]

20. Leave it to prosecutors. What's the big deal? nt

[Common Sense Party]

21. I believe the parents are culpable of negligence. So let's say I go along with you, Mikey

And agree that the parents lose their gun permit, and their guns.

Will you also then agree:

That parents of children who drown in the swimming pool lose their swimming pools?

That parents of children who drown in the bathtub lose their bathtubs?

That parents whose children die from ingesting household cleaners/chemicals then lose their household cleaners forever?

That parents whose children die after accessing alcohol in the home must from that moment on never have alcohol again?

That parents whose children die from fires in the home must lose their access to matches, any flammable material, etc., forever?


You obviously will and must agree with all these propositions, since you are fair, consistent and logical. And since you truly care about the children.

[mikeb302000]

29. What do those other tragedies have to do with a discussion of guns and gun rights? nt

[Common Sense Party]

36. Can't or won't answer? Telling. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

38. They have to do with causes of child mortality, like a firearm, in the context you have raised.

All of those items SHOULD be perfectly safe/parents have a responsibility to protect their children from them.

Nobody NEEDS a swimming pool, right? If a parent is NEGLIGENT and the child is injured or dies from something preventable, how is it different if the mechanism was a pool, or a gun?

One is designed for recreation or medical therapy, and let's say I accept the meme that one is designed to 'kill'. So what. The parent has an obligation to protect a ward from injury by such sources. Pool or gun. An unattended child drowning in a pool is just as negligent on the pool owner's part, as a child that shoots himself with a gun, for the owner of that unsecured gun.

Children can be supervised. Pools and firearms can be secured. A safe, a trigger lock, separate ammo storage, etc. A fence, a locking gate, a lockable cover you can walk on, etc.

Negligence is negligence. It would help if you could illuminate where there is some sort of difference between the issues.

[mikeb302000]

43. I never said there was a difference. This thread is about guns not all those other things. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Why?

When addressing a public health issue, shouldn't one prioritize the most dangerous risk first?

[Common Sense Party]

23. Are the "grizzly reports" the ones that the Forest Service puts out?

I didn't even know bears could legally carry firearms.

[holdencaufield]

24. The Right to Arm Bears ...

... is enshrined in the US Constitution

[SummerSnow]

34. I agree...

Then they should have their gun license revoked for 10 years go to jail .Then when they want to be reinstated they have to attend gun responsibility classes.

[jody]

48. Absolutely & also children who drown in family pool or die from other things controlled by parents.

Don't cherry pick one cause of children deaths, get them all:

WISQARS 10 Leading Causes of Unintentional Injury Deaths, United States 2007, All Races, Both Sexes
Rank AGE 1-12
1 Unintentional MV Traffic 1,177
2 Unintentional Drowning 630
3 Unintentional Fire/burn 393
4 Unintentional Suffocation 223
5 Unintentional Pedestrian, Other 163
6 Unintentional Other Land Transport 93
7 Unintentional Struck by or Against 72
8 Unintentional Poisoning 67
9 Unintentional Fall 60
10 Unintentional Firearm 50

[geek_sabre]

49. Yep, as long as parents whose children die in locked cars are as well nt

[CBGLuthier]

51. should negligence be punished? Yes, of course.

an idiot Oklahoma state trooper a few weeks ago left a weapon where his three year old nephew found it and then nephew died. No charges. No fucking charges. Why the fuck not?



Yes any time some asshole leaves a weapon where a child can get it they should be prosecuted. No compassion for any of these careless fucks.

[gejohnston]

56. because he was a cop

just like NYPD missing the bad guy and wounding several bystanders.

[riverwalker]

55. grisly, not grizzly

and in the Minnesota case, the father had guns stashed all over the house, in laundry baskets, dressers, closets etc. With small children in the house.
I think thats why prosecuters are being so aggressive.

[jody]

58. Difficult to make laws banning "stupid". nt

[iiibbb]

59. anyone who hurts a kid - zero tolerance

anyone who ever lets a child be harmed should be punished to the maximum extent no excuses. they should have there kids taken away. Both parents... because the should be checking what the other is doing, and they should be sterilized.

Because society's job is to pass judgment.

[holdencaufield]

60. Should parents ...

... who cause their children irreparable harm through allowing them unrestricted viewing of "Reality-TV" be prosecuted?

[hbskifreak]

62. well...

Perhaps. Negligence should always be held accountable. However, I would support a lifetime ban on the parent's ever being able to own a firearm, shoot a firearm, living under the same roof as a firearm, being banned from membership to any organization that promotes firearms. Basically, they blew up their 2nd Amendment priviledges for life, and should need to do a few public service announcements on TV that promotes weapon safety.

[loknar]

63. Parents who leave pills out for their children to get into should be prosecuted as well

and to the fullest extent of the law if the child comes to harm as a result of their negligence. And yes, parents who leave loaded guns laying around for their children to get into should definitely be prosecuted if and when harm results because of their negligence. I once participated in the resuscitation of a 19 month old girl whose parents threw her in a river to teach her to swim. they let momma out of jail so she could be there when they took the girl off life support and let her go. Some people shouldn't be parents.