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Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:01 AM Dec 2012

Practical but also tactical

Rather then going the route of many who seem to be gravitating towards the AR platform rifles and have a preference for the semi-auto pistol over the revolver, my own thinking is to go the other direction and stick with weapons that aren't on many people's ban or regulate list. Being on SSDI, I also have to look for a gun or guns that are economical but would still be good for hunting and self/home defense. I have a great interest in guns and do enjoy shooting so the primary reason to getting any would be for a hobby but I could also use the same for self/home defense and hunting.


Below are 4 criteria I'd have to consider if or when purchasing a gun and budgeting for related expenses:

Budget

I think by this coming summer, after I paid some bills off, I could afford about $50 to $75 a month to dedicate towards purchasing of guns, ammo, range fees, accessories, gun safety classes, hunting licenses and Michigan CPL fees (If I ever was to decide to get that) and maybe even equipment for self loading.


Cost.

As mentioned, my budget would be very tight and I really have to look at not just the cost of a gun itself but also for ammo, gun safety classes and possible accessories and even magazines. $20 spent on a magazine is $20 not spent on 40 cans of store brand chicken noodle soup. I would also be looking to purchase a gun that can serve two or more roles. One for self/home dense and the other would be hunting and/or target shooting.

Range

I don't recall ever shooting at anything beyond a range of 50 yards when I used to hunt and I'd probably stick to that maximum range if I ever were to hunt again ( I don't like to kill anything but it'd be a way to put food on the table). As for home defense, I live in a small town in a small 900 square foot two story house on a 100' deep X 50' wide lot. Even outside the home, there is little opportunity to shoot beyond 50 yards and much of the distances would be better measured in feet. Given that, a gun that is capable of accurately firing well beyond 50 yards is excessive and unneeded capability.

Non-scary gun factor

To avoid attracting unnecessary attention I'd avoid guns that have a military look to them. Those guns are also really going up in price now and that's another reason to avoid them. I'd even stay away from semi-automatics all together.


So here are the two guns I'd be looking at acquiring:

SA/DA Revolver

The revolver would be the only gun that I could keep on me or within easy reach 24/7 if I were to need it for self defense when at home. I'm a big guy at 6'2" and weigh about 235 lbs. so I think a large frame revolver with a 4 inch barrel would feel comfortable in my hand but I'd have to go to a gun shop and handle many to make sure. A .38/357 would allow me to target practice and plink with cheaper .38 rounds and the .357 magnum ammo could be reserved for self defense and hunting. I could buy a belt holster and a double speed loader pouch to also go on my belt for spare ammo. A speed loader goes for a little over $20 each and a good quality .38/357 revolver can be had for about $400. Holster and speed loader pouch prices vary but they are relatively inexpensive.

Shotgun

I talked before about a .38/357 lever action carbine but the more I read and think about the subject, I believe a better choice initially would be a shotgun. With a smooth bore shotgun, I can both bird hunt with bird shot and deer hunt with slugs. I can't do that with a carbine. For home defense, I could purchase reduced load slugs or buck shot. A good shotgun for my situation may be something like the H&R Pardner Pump Protector pump action which goes for less then $250. The H&R Pardner Pump Protector is a Remington 870 clone so many of the Remington accessories (other then the mag extension) will fit. With its 18.5" barrel & 37 5/8" OA length, it wouldn't be bad maneuvering around the house with it.


Guns already owned

Bolt action

If I ever felt the need to have a rifle that I could use for hunting at longer ranges, I already have two Mosin Nagant 91/30s. They are heavy guns and I wouldn't want to walk around all day carrying one but they'd be very good for having in a deer blind at the edge of a large field. They'd be of little use for self/home defense and would be used strictly for hunting or target shooting.


None of the above would raise many eyebrows IMO but I feel I would still be well armed and with taking classes and doing a lot of practice shooting and handling the guns, I'd be very competent in using them. And I believe the vast majority of people interested in self defense could do the same.



18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Clames

(2,038 posts)
1. Ever think about a lever action rifle?
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:32 AM
Dec 2012

I own a Marlin .30-30 and it is a fine general purpose firearm. Inexpensive, accurate, easy to handle and maintain, and ammo is plentiful and reasonably priced. They have been seeing a resurgence in popularity over the last few years which had created a market for some very nice accessories and new ammo options. I have about $700 in mine including a nice scout scope and mounting rail.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
2. I've thought about that.
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:57 AM
Dec 2012

A used .30-30 lever action in good condition can be had for around $400 and sometimes even less. I could sell the two Mosin-Nagents for what I paid for them and have enough money to buy a new Rossi .38/357 lever action along with ammo and that would probably be better for home defense as it fires handgun cartridges but still powerful enough to hunt white tail deer with at the ranges I spoke of.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
3. Avoid "sardine can" ammunition in those 91/30's
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:58 AM
Dec 2012

It's more corrosive than black powder and good quality ammo is available with brass cases, boxer primers. Yeah it's a bit more expensive than the surplus stuff but you won't spend your whole life cleaning your rifle. And you can reload if you're into that.

And you might want to think about converting one of those to a sporting gun by replacing the stock with one of the composite ones and adding a scout scope. I'm not sure how much lighter it is but I find it to be a lot better balanced than the standard stock.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
13. Found this site for Mosin-Nagants
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:04 AM
Dec 2012

What's shown here is about as sporterized as I need to go.

http://brassstacker.com/mosin-nagant/

The Mosin-Nagant leaves a lot to be desired as a home defense weapon but it isn't on many people's gun control radar.

sarisataka

(18,663 posts)
4. Your thoughts look good based on
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:07 AM
Dec 2012

your criteria.

In a revolver .38+p is usually enough for self defense. The .357 does give the option for a bit more power and would mesh with your desire to hunt. Taurus and Charter Arms will give you quality on a budget. Rossi is also priced well but I have no experience with them.

For shotguns, it is hard to go wrong with a 12 ga pump. It is about the closest to a do everything gun that is out there. H&R, Savage and Stoeger are good guns and well priced. Mossberg is a bit more but is one of my favorites.

See if any ranges have guns you can shoot to see what you like the best.

Good luck and be safe

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
5. The frugal hunting/target shooting/home defense weapon-the slingshot
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:24 AM
Dec 2012

This is outside the SOP of GC/RKBA so here is the link to the thread about slingshots which I started in the Outdoor Life group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1214464#post8

aikoaiko

(34,170 posts)
6. I suggest shopping for a lightly used 2nd tier .357
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:40 AM
Dec 2012


My first firearm was such gun -- a Taurus Tracker 4" .357. I bought it $350 used.
[IMG][/IMG]
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_50_494/products_id/31746

I trust my life to mine.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
7. If home defense was my primary concern, a gun like that would be my 1st purchase
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:10 PM
Dec 2012

A revolver is the only weapon I could have on me or within easy reach 24/7. Having all my guns in a gun safe in the closet of my upstairs bedroom wouldn't do me a bit of good if I'm down in the basement working on some project and a bad guy kicks in my front door. I could only hope the sound of my battery operated drill would scare him off.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
8. The single shot break action combo guns
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:39 PM
Dec 2012

Companies like H & R (which is owned by Mossberg) and Rossi offer some reasonably priced (in the $300 to $400 range) single shot combination guns in a variety of dual barrel packages.

A few examples:

.223/20 gauge
.357 mag/20 gauge
.44 mag/12 gauge
.30-06/20 gauge
50 Blkpwdr/20 gauge

With practice, a single shot break action gun can be reloaded fairly quickly and as they are simple, they are quite reliable. I don't think many bad guys can laugh off being hit by one 12 or 20 gauge deer slug.



rrneck

(17,671 posts)
9. That's all you need
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:03 PM
Dec 2012

I'm a little different, but not much. I'm not into shooting in a big way, although I try to make it to the range now and then. I used to have a Smith and Wesson model 19 that gave me very good service. Took it to a gunsmith and it had really nice DA and SA. And there's nothing better than an 870 for stopping power and versatility. Short barrel for home or may be close in deer, and other barrels for ducks and upland game.

But I ain't giving up my 1911.

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
10. Easy Picks: Ruger GP101, Remington 870 Express Magnum, Reminton 700 (.308)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:08 PM
Dec 2012

A Rem 700 SPS in .308 will take down anything in north america and reach out 800-1000yds. Classy, not too pricey fro a basic model and hunting/defense/target ammo is easy to find. A savage would also make a good bolt .308

Remington 870 Express Magnum is a very quality 12ga that is all business, won't break the bank at all and can have a classy look. The 870 is the benchmark of 12ga pump actions... reliable, handles up to 3.5" shotshells, and has LOADS of accessories. A Mossberg 500 would be another good shotgun choice. Both top tier choices (like Chevy versus Ford debates) - you can't go wrong with either.

Ruger GP101: Ruger revolvers are super quality revolvers at very reasonable prices for a top tier revolver. A GP101 is a medium'large frame, .357/.38 caliber, all stainless, built like a brick shithouse, and with a decent trigger job it's as good as any S&W at 70% of the cost. In this price range, without moving up to a more $$ S&W or Colt, a Taurus would be a half-decent substitute... but the Ruger is better value by far.


My personal picks (the guns I own) for those three roles you list?
I use a Glock 29 10mm, Keltec KSG 12ga Pump Action, DPMS TAC20 .308
Sure they're pricier, but the firepower upgrade is humongous. You know what they say, Tactical is Practical

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
11. Well I guess mine are a little old fashioned.
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:47 PM
Dec 2012

Colt Government 45ACP

Winchester M97 Trench gun w/16" bayonet

M1Garand Nat Match in 308 Winchester

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
12. Very good quality but beyond my budget.
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:52 PM
Dec 2012

Heck, I'm thinking of first getting a slingshot which can be had for less then $20.

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
14. Not sure about pricing with all the current panic buying, but here's a few suggetions:
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:00 AM
Dec 2012

Rossi .38/38+p revolver - cheap but half decent. Have confidence in used used taurus and used Ruger revolvers too. a revolver that fires 357 will be a little more expensive and .38+P should be just fine for SD. If you're willing to look at autoloaders, a S&W sigma is only about $200-$300 and, while the trigger and feel is pretty bad, they are infact very reliable. Just unrefined. I got my FIL a used 870 shotgun with a spare deer slug barrel - $250 used. I got a mossberg 500 for $190 used. Single barrel stoegers should be pretty cheap too.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
15. I thought about getting a used .38 Special revolver
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:41 AM
Dec 2012

They are cheaper then used .357 models and a .38 special is probably all I need. I'd have to go to a couple of gun stores and handle several as I'd want one that feels good in the hand. I've handled my brother's .357 Black Hawk SA revolver and it doesn't feel right. The grip is too small and it feels front end heavy with the 6" barrel.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
16. My working home-defense revolver is an older Ruger Police Service Six...
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:01 PM
Dec 2012

in .357. I switched out the wooden grips and installed Hogue rubber. Great feel, dampens the .357 nicely, and I can shoot .38s all day. These guns are still around in gun shows.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
17. The Mosin Nagant (Cross Post)
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:11 PM
Dec 2012

The recent panic buying doesn't seem to have affected the prices of Mosin Nagants at all and very good ones can still be had for as little as $200. The gun does meet some of the criteria I listed in the OP and i'll discuss it briefly:

Cost

I already own two so that's a plus right off the bat but as I said, rifles in very good condition can still be purchased in the $200-$300 range. Certain variants such as the sniper version are pricey.

Budget

Stripper clips are very inexpensive and can be reused over and over again. Surplus ammo is cheap and one can buy a case of 880 rounds for about $135. To purchase the accesories (scout scope mount, scout scope, rubbber butt pad) to turn one of my rifles into a scout rifle would run me about $200.

Non scary gun factor

Being a bolt action, there is very little chance it will be highly regulated in any fashion in the near future.


But, IMO, it is less then desirable as a home defense gun (but it is better then nothing if one needs a gun for such) so here is a link to an OP about Mosin Nagants which I posted in the Outdoor Life group. Talking about a specific gun is getting outside the SOP of GC/RKBA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1214478



Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
18. Costs
Tue Jan 1, 2013, 02:21 PM
Jan 2013

I posted some of this info before but one can see that even sticking to the basics can be costly. The basics being a used handgun with accesories, a shotgun, a class that satisfies MI CPL training requirement, license fees, ammo, range fees and accesories for the rifles I already own. That alone is a little over $1000. with a projected monthly budget of $50 to $75, it'd take me a year and half to close to two years. However, if I quit smoking and use the money budgeted for that ($90 a month), it'd be quicker and my lungs would thank me for it.


RUGER SP101 .357MAG (used) $395.00
Taurus 66 357MAG 4" BL (new) $439.00
Charter Arms Target Bulldog 357MAG/38-Special (used) $345.00


RUGER SP101 holster (Amazon.com) $20.74

Speedloader DBL Pouch with 3 Loaders for .38/357(Ebay) $25.00


Federal Premium .357 Mag ammo $24.00 for a 20 round box

Tula Cartridge Works .357 ammo $18.00 for a 50 round box

PMC .357 ammo $400.00 1000 rounds

MBI .38 Special ammo $290.00 1000 rounds (.38 Special rounds can be fired in a .357 Magnum
gun)


H & R Pardner 12 gauge pump action shotgun 18.5" barrel $235.00

12 Gauge Remington Slugger 2-3/4" 5 Round Box $4.69

12 Gauge Lightfield HV Star Home Defender 2 3/4" 5 Round Box Less Lethal $11.19

12 Gauge Winchester Super-X Game and Field Load 2-3/4" #4 25 Round Box $7.26


Mosin Nagant M91/30 7.62X54R

The cheapest such guns that appear to be servicable that I found on the internet were listed at $199.00. Most were in the $250.00 to plus $300. range. One might be albe to find good ones for lower prices at gun shops or gun shows.

Surplus Bulgarian 7.62 x54R 147 gr FMJ [880 Rd Case] $169.99
The better ammo can cost from .50 cents to close to a dollar a round

Mosin Nagant Recoil Pad $14.95
Mosin Nagant stripper clips package of 20 $9.41



Courses

Basic Pistol Shooting Course $99.00

Personal Protection In The Home Course (satisfies MI CPL training requirement) $90.00

Defensive Pistol Course $149.95

Pistol Orientation (satisfies WI CPL training requirement) $100.00

Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course $200.00

Basic Rifle Shooting Course $249.00


CPL fees

MI Concealed Pistol Application fee $105.00

WI Concealed Pistol Application fee $50.00


Range fees
Action Impact Gun Range & Firearms Store in Southfield MI (near Detroit).

Gun range fee $10.00 per 1/2 hour

MI CPL Certification course $99.00

Handgun rental $10.00

The store gives a limited amount of free range time if one purchases a qualifying gun there.


The more experienced here could give some ideas as to how often one should go to a gun range to practice, how long they should be there and about how much ammo one can expect to shoot each time.

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