Wow!---yo Lance apologists... check out this newest NYT piece..

[trumad]

There sure are a lot of witnesses willing to sit down and testify that old Lance juiced like a mother fucker.

Here's a nice little snip:

George Hincapie, one of the most respected and well-liked American riders in history, also came forward. He was the only rider to be at Armstrong’s side for all of Armstrong’s seven Tour victories. He has never admitted doping, so his testimony threatened to rock the sport.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/sports/cycling/antidoping-officials-move-to-wipe-out-armstrongs-titles.html?_r=1&ref=sports

[joeybee12]

1. Of course, apparently you can't tell a journalism investigation vs sppon-fed

from Tagart.

Wait until the dust dies down and Ken Starr, Jr. has finished feeding the medis HIS version of the investigation.

[trumad]

2. You going to call George Hincapie, Ken Starr junior?

Oh Lance knew that if George testified his last nut would be fried.

A great fucking piece on this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sports/cycling/hincapie-an-armstrong-teammate-seen-as-reluctant-but-reliable-witness.html?pagewanted=all

[joeybee12]

3. Tygart is Ken Starr, Jr. nt

[trumad]

4. Oh---so Hincapie is reliable...correct

The apologists make out to be all Tygart when they clearly know it is not.

Question: Is Hincapie lying?

[DanTex]

5. Of course Hincapie isn't lying.

Hincapie is unimpeachable. He obviously doesn't have a grudge against Lance -- he was one of Lance's closest friends. His credibility is intact because he never tested positive, unlike Hamilton or Landis. Lance doesn't want any of the testimony to be made public, to maintain plausible deniability with fans that aren't paying attention to details.

[joeybee12]

6. Still not answering why he's willing to testify now and wouldn't

for the FBI or the Justice Department...I mean, I sure as hell wouldn't want to lie or hold anything back from them.

[DanTex]

8. CBS reported that he did testify in front of the grand jury.

The grand jury testimony was confidential, so we can't know for sure what he said. According to CBS, he implicated Lance. Hincapie said no comment and issued a non-denial. The Armstrong people attacked CBS and denied the story.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/cbs-news-reports-hincapie-testified-that-he-and-armstrong-supplied-each-other-with-epo-testosterone_174866

[trumad]

7. Exactly

Unreal that the apologists skip right by this...

[DanTex]

9. The whole apoligist thing is unreal in general.

I didn't realize there were this many people who don't know a thing, it seems, about what has been going on with pro cycling over the last 15 years, and yet will vehemently defend Lance from this supposed "witch hunt". Particularly given the fact that, for 10 years or so, he's filed lawsuit after lawsuit and fought tooth and nail against every single accuser, but now he suddenly decides he's "tired of fighting" right before the arbitration where ten eyewitnesses are finally going to be able to tell their story publicly.

[joeybee12]

10. Good Lord!

Another expert who looks down on anyone who has a differing opinion...I thought one Turmad was enough.

[DanTex]

11. OK, so maybe I worded that too strongly.

But here's an example of what I mean. One argument people make against Armstrong is that most of the field was doped, and it would be impossible for a clean rider to beat a field of world-class dopers.

A lot of people will simply reject this argument offhand as "sour grapes" or "jealousy" or whatever. But really, this is a scientific question -- it depends on the effects of the performance enhancing drugs that were in use at the time. If the effects are small, then maybe a clean rider can win. If the effects are huge, then not. It has nothing to do with being jealous or spiteful.

And I don't think the people who dismiss the "everyone was doing it" argument ever bother and try and find out whether it is realistic to think that a clean rider could beat a doped field. I don't know why this is. Don't you think it would be a good idea to do a little research? Maybe figure out what drugs people took, at what doses. Read about the effects from sports doctors, and read some first-hand accounts from other cyclists who talk about how much their own performance improved using the drugs. Because I would bet that almost all of the people who have done what I just described will come to the conclusion that Armstrong could not have been clean.

I think that there is a vague sense that doping is a "shortcut" for people who don't want to work hard. And I admit, the story that Lance Armstrong was inspired by his cancer fight to come back train harder than anyone else is a compelling one. People want it to be true, so they ignore the evidence against it.

[trumad]

12. No---you weren't to strong in your language

Push back on an apologist and they start building the straw men.

Me and a few others have plenty of practice when it comes to smacking down the apologists for cheaters who use the juice.

We had a few here on DU---one tombstoned, one who is still here but still a douche---who put up a spirited fight for Barry Bonds, but at the end---they crumbled like the douchebags they are.

No diff with this one.

[KamaAina]

13. "respected and well-liked"

= "never won jack shit".

[joeybee12]

14. +1

[trumad]

15. You're right

and Bonds hit 72 homers.

[a la izquierda]

16. Okay, I don't want to be rude...

but that wasn't his job in most races. I don't know what you know about racing, but not everyone gets to win. Domestiques and lieutenants are there to serve the general classification contender (Lance, in this case).

And he has won quite a bit, and in some prestigious events.

[wilt the stilt]

17. did Armstrong do the juice

I say yes and I also think everyone who was competing against him from Ulrich to Pantini did the same. For you novices to cycling and I have been riding since Mercx and the Red Zinger classic and I still ride a Reynolds 531 hand built Holdsworth. The cycling world has been doping forever. They have a monument on Alp'Dhuez for a rider who died from drugs in '67. Get over it he beat them all and they all doped.
here is a great race.

[joeybee12]

18. I think you're right...they all did it...every single one...

How can you prosecute one man and hound him if you're not going to go after all of them?