U.K. minister Sayeeda Warsi calls on West to protect Christian minorities

[hrmjustin]

Kevin Eckstrom

WASHINGTON (RNS) The highest-ranking Muslim in the British government on Friday (Nov. 15) called on Western governments to do more to protect besieged Christian minorities across the world, particularly in the Holy Land where they are now seen as “outsiders.”

Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, the government’s minister for faith and the first Muslim member of a British cabinet, said religious freedom is a proxy for human rights and must not be an “add-on” to foreign policy.

“A mass exodus is taking place, on a biblical scale,” she said in a speech at Georgetown University. “In some places, there is a real danger that Christianity will become extinct.”

Warsi, a mother of five and the daughter of Pakistani immigrants, said Christian minorities in war-torn regions of Egypt, Iraq, Syria and elsewhere are threatened by Muslim majorities in the very places that gave rise to Christianity

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/11/15/u-k-minister-sayeeda-warsi-calls-west-protect-christian-minorities/

[cbayer]

2. Are you advocating for genocide based on religion?

Sure sounds like it.

[hrmjustin]

4. His post got hidden. I did not alert but I am not surprised it was hidden.

[cbayer]

7. Good. Really, really ugly thing to say,

particularly in the context of this thread.

[trotsky]

18. You've said as much about atheists.

Lead by example, cbayer. You've posted your own wishes for the extinction of certain people, too.

At least mr blur's deleted post actually referred to beliefs, not people. Not so with yours.

[hrmjustin]

24. Sorry ut that was not clear from his post and a jury agreed. I did not alert but he took his chances

Two of us responded to him and he could have clarified but he did not.

[trotsky]

30. Just one question:

Did the post specifically refer to "Christians" (people) or "Christianity" (an idea)?

[hrmjustin]

31. Christianity. My question to you now is how do you make Christianity extinct?

[trotsky]

32. Ah, but no one said anything about *making* Christianity extinct.

The quote from the article mentioned Christianity *becoming* extinct.

In this thread, you and cbayer both seem to have purposely chosen words that weren't present in order to exaggerate and smear mr blur. I don't think that's fair.

[hrmjustin]

33. Nice try but you are excusing his we can only hope so comment.

If I said I hope ateism was extinct you would pounce on me in a second.

[trotsky]

34. I am looking at exact words.

You are choosing to use different ones, that have different meanings.

*Making* something extinct means something different than something *becoming* extinct. True or false?

[hrmjustin]

35. Ok lets go with your logic. What do you think he meant?

[trotsky]

36. Again, this isn't my "logic," this is about precise language.

Do you agree or disagree that "making something extinct" has a different meaning than "something becoming extinct"?

[hrmjustin]

37. The poster was making clear he wants Christianity extinct.

Then the question comes how are you going to do that.

Yes the two phrases have a different meaning.

Now answer my question, what do you think he meant.

[trotsky]

38. It would have been nice to have a discussion about what he meant, wouldn't it?

Instead of instantly assuming the worst (i.e., that mr blur was calling for genocide!! - seriously, WTF?) and calling a jury to delete the post based on a misunderstanding, wouldn't you agree?

My guess is that like millions of people around the world, mr blur looks at the totality of Christianity - its pros and cons - and thinks the world would be better off without it. He doesn't want all Christians murdered, he'd rather the religion just fade away in favor of more overall tolerant belief systems.

[hrmjustin]

39. I agreed with the jury. His post was ugly. Wanting Christianity to be extinct is an ugly thing to

to people. Should we all have to believe like him. That is fascism. Christianity is not going away and people who don't like it need to deal with it.

He has himself to blame for his own hides. I have had only one hide here and I took responsibility for it and I act accordingly here.

[trotsky]

40. This will be my last response to you.

1) You are judging and smearing mr blur on what you THINK he said versus what he said. I have conclusively demonstrated that.
2) At no time did he say you (or anyone else) had to believe like him. To bring up "fascism" is completely inappropriate and just another attempt at smearing, IMO.
3) Christianity may indeed go away some day. Countless religions with millions of followers have faded away as they were replaced with others.
4) Your attitude toward people who have been harmed by Christianity need to "deal with it" is deplorable. Gay teens disowned by their parents - they need to "deal with it?" How disgusting! (See what I did there? I hope you do, and learn from it.)

Good day.

[hrmjustin]

41. Oh please I never said deal with it wen it comes to issues when Christianity is wrong.

I am gay and I have said plenty of times on this board that Christians are wrong when it comes to LGBT rights.

Please spare me your outrage.

Saying you want Christianity to go is telling people you want people to believe like you and that is fascism.

Spare me your outrage. Good bye!

[Act_of_Reparation]

42. Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

And, incidentally, tossing "fascism" around like it has no specific meaning does a disservice to those who actually suffered under it.

There is a marked difference between finding an idea so repulsive you wish it would disappear, and actually coercing, by threat of violence, people into stifling their disagreement with your beliefs and actions.

I wish libertarianism would go away. That doesn't mean I would support lining Paulbots against a brick wall for public execution. See the difference?

[hrmjustin]

43. If you want the religion to go away what do you want to take the place of it?

[Act_of_Reparation]

45. Care to explain how that question is relevant to this discussion?

I'd be happy to answer, but this is about whether or not Mr. Blur is a fascist. I think we've demonstrated quite conclusively he is not.

[hrmjustin]

46. Wanting people to give up their views like Christianity because you don't like it is what?

I do not mean to be harsh to Mr. Blur but when you respond to my thread saying you want my faith extinct how am I to respond?

[Act_of_Reparation]

48. Let me answer your question with a question:

How do you think a Tea Party Republican should respond to the totality of this website?

[hrmjustin]

49. That we have different views then their views.

[Act_of_Reparation]

55. Then you have your answer.

If a Tea Partier stumbled on these pages and saw everyone on DU talking about how the Tea Party needs to go away, you would want them to chalk it up to a fundamental difference in viewpoint. Can't the same be said of Mr. Blur's comment?

[hrmjustin]

56. The issue with Mr. Blur comment was he was agreeing with Christianity becoming extinct.

If you post something like that here you take your chances with a jury. You should also expect to get push back.

[Act_of_Reparation]

59. Look at it like this:

I don't think Mr. Blur posted here without expecting pushback. In fact, I think he would have welcomed pushback. Also, I am not without empathy: I understand that somebody reading the comment could have felt hurt or incensed.

But again, I'm not debating the subjective impact of the post. I'm debating whether or not what he said was indicative of fascist or genocidal sympathies.

[hrmjustin]

61. I do not think he has "fascist or genocidal sympathies".

I used the word fascist because telling people that their idea should be extinct is similar to fascism.

[trotsky]

68. Here at DU we would love to see many ideas become extinct.

Supply-side economics, for one. War for profit is another. There are dozens if not hundreds of others I've seen commented on.

Are DUers fascists?

Would you like to see the extinction of homophobia? If yes, does that make you a fascist?

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Um, it said christianity, not 'christians'.

An idea is not a people.

Old ideas die out, it does not imply 'genocide'. That's quite a leap on your part.

Edit: I don't think that poster read the article. I did the same thing. Just deleted my similar comment.

[cbayer]

17. Glad the jury didn't take the "apologist" position you are taking...

(I can't tell you how excited I am about being able to use that trite and overused word).

[trotsky]

19. I'm sure the alerter made it clear how they thought it should be interpreted.

And you may want to study the definition of apologist to find out how to accurately use it.

[BainsBane]

29. Amazing how easily some people are threatened by ideas.

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. I know, right? It's not like an idea has ever hurt anyone...

... oh, wait.

[BainsBane]

47. Should we start banning books?

Perhaps beginning with the Bible? Will that make you feel better?

[Act_of_Reparation]

50. No, you have illuminated me to the errors of my ways.

Obviously we should not criticize peoples' ideas, because THAT would lead inexorably to book burning.

We'd better shut this website down tout de suit, lest somebody set fire to American Conservative Thought in the 21st Century!

[BainsBane]

51. Actually, the post I responded to wished those ideas to be eradicated

Your criticism point is a failed effort to change the subject in defense of an absurd point.

[trotsky]

52. Excuse me?

Could you provide the exact quote where I said Christianity should be eradicated?

If not, could you please do the respectful thing and retract that statement?

[BainsBane]

54. Was this not a discussion about the post hidden above?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4053407

In which some claimed the poster was talking about Christians becoming extinct and you defended him by saying the argument was that Christianity should become extinct? Extinct and eradicated are closely related words.

[Act_of_Reparation]

57. Closely related... as in "almost"

It's late. I'm hungry. I pick up the phone and call the pizza place down the street.

"I'd like a calzone with pepperoni," I say.

Forty-five minutes later, a delivery guy shows up with a pepperoni pizza.

"This isn't what I ordered," I said.

"You ordered a calzone," the delivery guy said. "This is a pizza."

"Right," said I. "I ordered a calzone. So what the hell gives with the pizza?"

The delivery guy shrugs and tells me: "They're closely related."

[BainsBane]

58. far more closely related that "criticize"

Which is Thai takeout in Bangkok.

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. No, not really.

The Dodo was eradicated. The dinosaurs are extinct.

You may think the difference is subtle, but I assure you, it isn't.

[BainsBane]

64. When people forsake the subject matter

in lieu of tangential metaphors, that leads me to believe they have lost track of their point. You clearly asserted something I didn't say, and now for some reason feel compelled to continue to attack, even though you were mistaken. Doing so accomplishes nothing.

[cleanhippie]

62. That poster never said he wanted CHRISTIANS to become extinct.

Reading comprehension saves lives.

[BainsBane]

63. Indeed. Try it yourself

[cleanhippie]

69. Already got it. You are the one that needs it. Badly.

No one said what you claim was said. No one expects you to correct it, either.

[trotsky]

65. No, they're different words.

And I find it unfortunate you cannot be "Christian" enough to at least retract your false claim about what I said. Guess that part about not bearing false witness is one of the things you can ignore when you want to.

Gee, why would anyone want your religion to go away when it clearly makes you such a better person?

[BainsBane]

66. What makes you think I'm Christian?

You're ripe with assumptions. I guess false claims are okay if you make them.

Whether the word is extinct or eradicated, the point is the same: clearly you see the ideas as threatening. I object to and disagree with all kinds of ideas, but that doesn't mean I feel compelled to wish the demise of an ideology that holds meaning to 30-40% of the world's population. Now if it comes to the influence of religion on public policy, that's another matter. It's clear that what concerns evangelical atheists, however, is that some adhere to a belief system they don't like. I consider that unfortunate. I myself don't find the practice or non-practice of religion threatening. I also know enough about history to know that religion has served as both a source of oppression and empowerment, like many ideologies.

[trotsky]

67. Yeah, I find the homophobia and sexism that has been a hallmark of Christianity its entire history..

to be threatening. I find it threatening that it's also historically been strongly opposed to atheism and other religions.

It's great that the influence of secularism and the enlightenment has swayed some sects to more liberal territory on some issues. There remains a serious amount of work to do.

Regardless, you smeared me with a false accusation and you refuse to retract or apologize for it. I never called for the eradication of Christianity OR Christians. I don't care what you do or do not believe, that's totally insulting and unacceptable.

[skepticscott]

21. Yes, I'm sure you're tired of having it applied

to your endless attempts to defend and soften the despicable actions and beliefs of religious people. Especially since your whole agenda here is to cover those up, while attempting to give religion credit for every good thing that's ever been done.

[skepticscott]

20. No more than you were hoping for the death of Richard Dawkins

by saying you hoped he would go the way of the dinosaurs. Were you advocating his death, or are you just being deliberately obtuse and provocative in this case?

[hrmjustin]

3. Hitler said that about the Jews.

[hrmjustin]

23. Find a link where Hitler said he wanted the Jews extinct?

[skepticscott]

25. That's not what you claimed Hitler said

The post you were responding to said: "In some places, there is a real danger that Christianity will become extinct"

You responded "Hitler said THAT about the Jews" (my emphasis). Not "Hitler said he wanted the Jews extinct", but "Hitler said that in some places, there is a real danger that Judaism will become extinct"

Show us where Hitler said exactly what you claimed he did. Not what you tossed in after the fact to try to support your dishonest and disgusting smear of another poster.

[hrmjustin]

26. Hitler said on many occasions he wanted Judaism extinct. You are capable of finding your own quotes.

The poster can blame himself for his own post. His second post that got hidden today was just as ugly. I jury said so.

If he wants to clear the air he can do so but he has himself to blame.

[skepticscott]

27. Yes, he did

but that's not what you claimed he said. I think you're full of crap in claiming he said what you claimed he did (which is NOT that he "wanted Judaism extinct&quot . Why would I search for quotes that I deny even exist?

You claimed that Hitler said "In some places, there is a real danger that Judasim will become extinct". Link to where he said that, or admit you lied. Whether misbegotten juries chose to hide certain posts has nothing to do with whether your response to one of them was a lie, and you know that perfectly well.

I know you love to pretend to be the tolerant, non-judgemental Xstian, but when you pull odious crap like this, your true colors really show. Would your "Jesus" have made something up to smear someone else? Why would you?

[hrmjustin]

28. He may not have used those words but he did make clear he wanted them gone off the face of the

Earth and he tried to do it as well. He killed many in the process.

If your upset that he did not say that exact words then I can not help you.

I did not say Hitler said "In some places, there is a real danger that Judasim will become extinct"

What I was saying that Hitler wanted them gone. Hitler would have agreed with the comment We can hope so in relation to the Jews.

Nice try Scott. My colors are clear everyday. If you don't like me or what I have to say then put me on ignore.


The poster has himself to blame

You never see me saying I hope Atheism or other beliefs systems go away or become extinct.

Again nice try but failed.

[dimbear]

5. Thanks to hrmjustin for posting this article.

I'm pleased to see it has survived so far.

This is the 21st century. Nobody should be being displaced or killed for his/her religious belief.

[cbayer]

6. It's great that it is a Muslim member of the government who is advocating for this.

I really like what she has to say about people of different religions needing to protect others.

[hrmjustin]

9. I am sorry but I do not get your point.

[hrmjustin]

12. Ok. Thank you for making it clearer.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. I'm going to delete that. I didn't read the article, just the headline/synopsis.

Much like the fellow up top that had his post hidden, I suspect.

[hrmjustin]

14. Good idea.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Yeah, I missed the whole genocide bit.

Not the best thread for a glib quip on a tangential issue.

[hrmjustin]

16. I am guilty of not reading things sometimes.

I understood what you were trying to say.

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

53. Wow,

a couple of heavy duty debates here today. I'm happy to see folks are communicating.

[eqfan592]

70. If there is one thing this thread has definitely proven...

...it's that the jury system remains completely and totally broken.

[hrmjustin]

71. Well you take your chances with a jury.

It would be interesting to see the alerters reason and why the 4 posters voted to hide it.

[eqfan592]

72. TBH, I've never been a fan of a jury system when it comes to forums.

Too often the jurors end up being people with their own ax to grind, or in spite of their willingness to participate, they are in a hurry to get it done so they just skim over it and never bother to place the post into context.

[hrmjustin]

73. That is a fair critique.

The more I look on it I rather it was left so he could have explained himself.