Confirmed atheist turned super preacher to take helm of Houston's St. John the Divine Episcopal

[rug]

By Allan Turner
November 6, 2014

As an electrical engineer and a self-professed "angry atheist," Clay Lein had no truck for religion. God, he was convinced, was fools' folly ‑ a crutch for those who couldn't cut it on their own. His wife, Jill, and her father, an Episcopal priest, were free to believe, of course, but the Bible stuff just wasn't for him.

Baseball, though, was another matter.

Seated in a study at Houston's St. John the Divine Episcopal Church, where on Sunday he will deliver his first sermon as the 75-year-old congregation's new rector, Lein spun his tale of how a scoffing man of science was transformed ‑ through the agency of sports ‑ into a staunch believer.

At 53, Lein has worn the clerical collar more than 17 years, serving as executive pastor at Plano's Christ Episcopal Church and, most recently, as rector at St. Philip's Episcopal Church in Frisco, a Dallas suburb.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Confirmed-atheist-turned-super-preacher-to-take-5875515.php

[cbayer]

1. Unfortunately, the page is blocked for me, but it sounds like an interesting story.

[rug]

2. This may work. It's not a commercial site.

http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2014/06/26/clay-lein-named-as-rector-of-st-john-the-divine-houston/

[cbayer]

3. That one works but doesn't talk about his years of "confirmed atheism".

That's ok, though, I think I got what I needed from the excerpt.

[rug]

4. He probaly talks about it more in his book, "Ordinary Faith".

[kwassa]

5. Looking at pictures of St. Johns is looking at one very white congregation ....

watch the Vimeo video on the website. Nary a minority anywhere.It is kind of startling.

On the other hand, it seems they do great parish outreach.This must be one of the largest Episcopal churches in the US.

Here in the DC area the Episcopal churches are very diverse due to immigration from former English colonies and other places the church established itself. India, the Caribbean, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Liberia, etc.

[rug]

6. Frisco is 75% white.

White alone, percent definition and source info White alone, percent, 2010 75.0%

Black or African American alone, percent definition and source info Black or African American alone, percent, 2010 8.1%

American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent definition and source info American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent, 2010 0.5%

Asian alone, percent definition and source info Asian alone, percent, 2010 10.0%

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent definition and source info Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent, 2010 0.1%

Two or More Races, percent definition and source info Two or More Races, percent, 2010 3.1%

Hispanic or Latino, percent definition and source info Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2010 12.1%

White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent definition and source info White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2010 67.2%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4827684.html

Looks like South Asians are the biggest current immigrants.

http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-News+State/208121/schools-community-lure-indian-families-to-frisco#.VFvSkbl0z5o

[Cartoonist]

7. He found a scam he liked.

Beats working as an electrical engineer.

[rug]

8. Beats posting baseless bullshit on the internet.

[cbayer]

9. You obviously know little to nothing about these kinds of positions.

These people are some of the hardest working people I have ever known. They are basically on call 24 hours a day and respond to the needs of large groups of people. They spend time in hospitals, nursing homes, and parishioner's residences. The are generally involved in a tremendous number of community organizations.

And they are usually paid very little.

Calling what he chooses to do a scam is an ignorant thing to do.

[hrmjustin]

11. I am not suprised you would say this.

The Episcopal Church is not a scam.

[kwassa]

18. Beats your scam that you know something about this topic.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. I grew up as a Lutheran preacher's kid, and I'm currently active in

an Episcopal church.

I grew up in a time when it was thought a good idea to keep pastors not only on a modest income but downright poor. Toward the end of the month, we'd live on canned foods and whatever Mom could put together with Bisquik. The local pediatrician was on the church council, and when he noticed that we children seemed rather undernourished, my mother said, "I'd feed them better if you'd pay us more."

The megachurches and the self-ordained shysters are a Southern phenomenon that has spread northward, encouraged by right-wing politicians, because they provide instant "community" in suburban environments that have no other means of bringing people together.

Believe me, nobody becomes a mainline (Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, UCC, etc.) clergy person to get rich. More likely than not, one's first few jobs are going to be in small towns in the middle of nowhere.

[cbayer]

80. Did I know you were a PK?

I'm a PK, too.

I know exactly of what you speak.

[Odin2005]

79. Would you like some euphoria to go with your New Atheist Fedora?

[Promethean]

10. All I need to do to become rich...

is abandon my ethics and become a christian. -Matt Dillahunty

For context Matt is the host of an atheism themed television show based in Austin TX called "The Atheist Experience" and is a regular on the lecture and debate circuit on topics that come up around atheism. He does the show pro-bono and his speaking fees are tiny. He has a day job.

[cbayer]

12. While there are a few shysters who become preachers in order to

get rich, most clergy are paid very little.

I searched for this quote so that I could read it in context, but came up with nothing.

What do you think Matt Dillahunty meant by that?

[Promethean]

14. It is something he has said during his show and some of his speeches.

The meaning is that he is a famous atheist and there is a recognizable pattern of people who openly rejected religion becoming superstars for the religious and riding that into wealth (note relevance to OP). The ethics part comes in based on his overall message. Most notably how he considers lying to people to abuse their trust and for personal gain to be severely unethical behavior. Further context: It is very easy to catch apologists and big name preachers in lies to further the cause of their religion. If you value truth and are masochistic go look up "answers in genesis" for the perfect example.

Oh and by the way a note about why most of the atheists on the board dislike you cbayer. You constantly nag at us for being mean or bullies but you let posts like the one rug made in this line of posts pass without comment.

[cbayer]

16. I'm not sure I am following this.

I have not noted a pattern of people who were atheists becoming superstars for the religious and riding that into wealth.

In fact, this is one of the only times I have seen that someone went from a strong position of atheism to a strong position of theism, even becoming an episcopal priest, which is probably one of the most demanding ways to become a member of the protestant clergy.

I can't access this story, but the other article I read about him gives no indication that he is wealthy. The average salary of an Episcopal priest is $44,000/year.

And where do you get the idea that this man lies to people to abuse their trust and for personal gain?

I don't think that quote has any relevance to this story at all.

Certainly there are those you can shoot those arrows at - Joel Osteen comes immediately to mind - but I think you are really off base in this particular case.

Answers in Genesis is the product of a fundamentalist, creationist group. The Episcopal Church bears no resemblance to them other than sharing the term chrisitian.

Most atheists on the board dislike me? No, they don't. It's a very small group and I don't engage with most of them.

Hope this post isn't too nagging, you mean bully.

[Cartoonist]

19. $44,000/year.

Not much? Man, you are a plutocrat. The most I ever made was 40 grand in 2000. Then Bush became president. I make half that now. No, wait, I'm unemployed at this moment.
If I wasn't an honest man, I'd become a priest. Then I wouldn't have to bother with all those regulations an electrical engineer has to put up with. I wouldn't have to maintain my license, and since I joined the priesthood, that means I wouldn't have to pay all those mean taxes. Yeah, I know a scam when I see one.

[hrmjustin]

20. Clergy pay taxes.

And Episcopal clergy usualy get paid less than 44,000.

[rug]

21. Honestly, that's a tough spot to be in. And there's a lot of people in the same boat.

In the scheme things, that is the foremost fight.

[cbayer]

22. Yes, I am a plutocrat because I don't think a salary of $44,000 a year makes someone rich.

Sorry that you were also never rich and that you are currently unemployed.

Where did you get the idea that priests don't pay taxes?

What you don't know about religion is really overwhelming.

I continue to believe that you are a Poe.

[okasha]

23. In my area, some Episcopal priests

serve two or three small parishes in rural and semi-rural communities that no one outside S. Texas has ever heard of and hold down a day job. A fair number of Catholic priests are also circuit riders, though they may also have a full-time parish in a slightly wider place in the road.

Obviously members of the "yachting about" 1%

[cbayer]

28. That is true in most areas.

Some people are woefully ignorant of what is really going on in the world, but they sure do like to make stuff up.

Maybe it would do them good to do some yachting about and get out into the real world.

[okasha]

70. Well, you can get to San Ygnacio on the Rio Grande.

And maybe to Menard on the Nueces. Maybe the Frio, though the Frio runs only inches deep in some parts of the Hill Country. They'd have to portage.

[cbayer]

72. Rivers and sailing yachts are not the greatest mix, though

I do have dreams of my yacht cruising across the land at times.

Perhaps I could just buy some slaves to carry my yacht around when the water gets too low.

Oh, drat. Broke a nail opening the champagne.

[okasha]

73. Wups, Menard's on the San Saba.

All 1,653 residents of it.

[cbayer]

74. That looks to be the exact center of Texas.

It looks very poor, as so much of central Texas does.

Nope, won't be yachting about there I don't think.

[Jim__]

24. The median salary for an entry level electrical engineer in the US is $64, 169.

source

[Cartoonist]

25. I want to see a financial report

Someone like Jesus would give up all earthly goods to do God's work, but there are few like him. Perhaps this guy was up to his neck in money or legal troubles. He saw an easy way out and took it. I want to see a comparison with what his situation was then to how it is now. It's too easy to flee one's problems by running into a church.

I also have a hard time believing someone can go from an atheist to a believer. Intelligence doesn't flow that way. You don't spend your whole life dealing with reality, then suddenly accept a book of myths. The only exception is an onset of mental illness. If one starts believing in magic or UFO's, then that person is usually directed to seek help. But if he starts believing in omnipotent beings, then that's OK because it's RELIGION.

[rug]

27. "Intelligence doesn't flow that way."

You're right. Sometimes it just oozes out leaving a person nattering aimlessly without a glimmer of understanding.

[msanthrope]

30. 1-6 leave. I was juror 3,4, or 7.

On Fri Nov 7, 2014, 07:52 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

"Intelligence doesn't flow that way."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=161639

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Yet ANOTHER personal attack by rug. This adds nothing to te conversation, is disruptive, and makes DU suck more.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 7, 2014, 08:06 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: In and of itself, there's no personal insult here. Maybe if I'd been following these two around DU for some time, I'd see the slander suggested. But with this post by itself, I see nothing an observation. Honestly? I've known aging folks who've suffered in the exact way described as they succumbed to dementia. Not pretty, but an honest assessment of a regrettable end. My atheist mom was badgered into "accepting Christ" by do-gooders in her final weeks.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree, it's a personal attack and not the only one in this thread. Sigh.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it. Hardly a personal attack. I said as I natter about aimlessly.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: wat?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[rug]

32. Thanks for posting the results.

[cbayer]

29. What a fantasy you have woven.

You have created a whole story about this guy without any facts. You've even declared that he probably has a mental illness.

It's kind of like a belief system based on faith of some sort. Well, it's almost like a religion for you, isn't it?

I have met many religious people in my life, but I don't think I've met any whose ideas were as rigid and dogmatic as yours. Intelligence certainly does flow in peculiar ways.

[okasha]

31. This is even sillier than your Santa Claus posts.

How on earth--in the real world---do you think someone with "money or legal troubles" would get into seminary, then spend years there with no
paycheck?

[Cartoonist]

33. You shouldn't go there

okasha: Identify individual parishes named for him. Where might we find a Catholic, Anglican or Lutheran church of Santa Claus?
Cartoonist: https://www.facebook.com/SantaClausUnitedMethodistChurch

I see you still haven't gotten the egg off your face.

[cbayer]

34. It is you with egg on your face. Santa Claus is the name of the town.

The church bears the name of the town and is not named after Santa Claus.

[Cartoonist]

35. So what?

There was no law that said the church had to call itself that. This was a choice made freely by the parish. They chose to associate their church with Santa Claus. Case closed.

[cbayer]

36. Lol, because so few churches bear the name of the town where they are located, right?

They also have Santa's Candy Castle, Santa Claus Museum, Holiday World & Splashin' Safari, Frosty's Fun Center, Christmas Lake Golf Course, and Santa's Stables. It is also home to Santa's Lodge and Lake Rudolph Campground & RV Resort. And they receive all the Santa Claus mail sent by children throughout the country and have "elves" that reply to each and every one.

Here is their town hall:



Case closed indeed.

[Cartoonist]

37. It is what it is

They could have chosen any saint. They chose Santa Claus. I lived in Glen Ellyn as a boy. The Church I went to was named after St. Petronille. It wasn't named the Glen Ellyn church.

[cbayer]

41. Yes, it's a church that bears the name of it's town.

They didn't choose a saint, they chose the name of their town. And the town chose the name because Santa Fe was taken.

Your church may have been name St. Petronille, but in your town of Glen Ellyn there are:
First Congregational Church of Glen Ellyn
Glen Ellyn Bible Church
Glen Ellyn Evangelical Covenant Church
Glen Ellyn — Westline Church

Your church is a catholic church and is named after a saint.

The Santa Claus church is methodist. They are not generally named after saints. They believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and other early followers of christ were saints and sometimes name their churches after them, but they don't believe in all those other saints like the catholics do.

And they certainly don't honor Santa Claus as a saint.

You really need to get some religious education before you continue to make brash and completely unsubstantiated statements about religious matters.

[hrmjustin]

38. Omg!

You have got to be kidding me!

Do you understand that some churvhes incorparate the name of the area into their name?

[Cartoonist]

39. So what?

So what?
This is not just incorporating the name of the town. This is a deliberate choice by the parish to link itself with Santa Claus. If the name of the town was Lucifer, they wouldn't call themselves Lucifer's Church.

All of you can delude yourself into thinking this is just happenstance, but you're not fooling anyone.

[hrmjustin]

40. lmfao!

Do you think they believe that Santa is real?

[Cartoonist]

43. Do you think they believe that Santa is real?

They believe in God, don't they. What's the difference?

[cbayer]

44. New low, even for you.

[Cartoonist]

48. Faux outrage

Give it a rest. How many times do you think I've been asked to prove God doesn't exist?

[cbayer]

49. I am not outraged in the least. I am amused.

No one here has ever asked you to prove god doesn't exist unless you have made a definitive statement such as "God doesn't exist".

You need to give it a rest. You take outrageous positions and can't ever back down even in the face of evidence that contradicts what you are saying.

[Cartoonist]

53. I love evidence.

Show me some. And I have religious discussions away from this site.

[cbayer]

60. Show you evidence of what?

Perhaps you are carrying your emotions from some of those other discussions onto this site, because your expressed positions are extreme and can not possibly be in response to what you read here.

[hrmjustin]

45. Just answer the question.. Do you think they believe in Santa?

[Cartoonist]

46. I can't speak for others.

While we're here, do you believe in Santa Claus? Can you prove he doesn't exist?

[hrmjustin]

47. No I don't!

Nor do they. The name on the church is there because it is the name of the town.

[cbayer]

50. He knows that. He just can't back down.

[hrmjustin]

51. This is just weird and sad!

[Cartoonist]

52. Just answer the question

Can you prove Santa doesn't exist?
Before you blow a gasket, do you now understand how ridiculous it is to ask someone to prove that God doesn't exist? I know you didn't ask me that question, but you did ask me if they thought Santa exists. If you don't see the similarity, then you are incapable of seeing things from a differing point of view, and you are insulting me for taking issue with the whole concept of belief.

I never claimed that they believe in Santa Claus. I'm just saying that their choice of calling their Church, The SCUMC, has more to do with the fact it is the name of their town. If you think it ends there then you are engaging in wishful thinking because you think Santa is just a fat old marketing gimmick or some other reason I can't fathom. They may or may not believe in Santa, but they sure as hell have some affection for the spirit of giving that he represents and the joy he brings children of all ages. They certainly don't view him as some kind of pariah or pagan deity.

[hrmjustin]

54. Oh Lord.

I personally can not prove or disprove God and Santa.

I think you sre being ridiculous with this church's name.

[Cartoonist]

55. Not at all

I have no problem with their name. As a non-believer, I think it is kind of cute. I applaud them for daring to face ridicule from people like you who look down their nose at people who love Santa Claus despite the fact that he is a figure of make-believe. Their embrace of SC humanizes them in my eyes in a way that the God of the Old Testament never could.

[hrmjustin]

57. Ok I feel so ashamed of myself now.

[cbayer]

42. It's not a parish. It's a methodist church.

The town of Lucifer Oregon doesn't have a church. You are totally wrong about this. Read about how this town got it's name, please.

Yes, we are all deluded and you are completely and utterly sane.

[okasha]

58. By all means, let's go there.

Item: It's the Santa Claus United Methodist Church. First fail.

Item: Methodists do not dedicate their churches to saints. This church is named for its town, not for the figure you argue is "part and parcel Christian doctrine." Second and third fails.

Item: You're misrepresenting what you found. Fourth fail.

Item: Yet another illustration that you lapse into fantasy when the facts don't suit you. Fifth fail.

Have a napkin.

[hrmjustin]

61. You stop now!

Using logic like that is simply out of bounds!

[okasha]

67. I'm such a Bad, Bad Girl.

[hrmjustin]

69. One of my favorite evildoers!

[okasha]

71. Honored to be so.

[Cartoonist]

62. You posed a dare, I answered

You failed. Sorry that facts proved you to be wrong. You can't change the rules after the evidence is in. Must be tough to be you.

[okasha]

64. And you answered wrongly.

But by all means keep flying in the face of the facts.

(Oh, dear. I guess that means I believe in flying humans. You must be Sooperman! )

[cbayer]

66. He's been given all this information but still persists.

Now he has decided to praise them for taking this name. Seriously.

I believe he is the atheist version of a Poe, but will not ever be able to prove that because he will just continue to persist with these fantasies.

[okasha]

68. I agree.

I think I'll start addressing him as Edgar.

[wryter2000]

56. You don't leave your problems behind when you "run" to a church

You still have all your bills to pay. You still have any emotional/personal problems you had. If you were sick or unemployed, you're still sick or unemployed.

Talk about magical thinking.

[Cartoonist]

59. Maybe so

I just want to see more information about his life before and after his conversion before I nominate him for sainthood. Excuse me for not buying into the "holy conversion" BS.

[wryter2000]

63. Then why don't you do that

Instead of making baseless accusations that he's engaged in a scam?

[okasha]

65. Not to mention offering a baseless implication that the priest is somehow mentally ill

or engaged in questionable financial activities. That's outright smarm.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. First of all, it isn't easy to become an Episcopal priest

It's not like being a free-lance fundamentalist.

First, you have to discuss matters with the clergy of your own parish. If they think you should go ahead, you then have to form a "discernment committee" of seven lay people who meet with you once a month for a full year, examining every aspect of your life and motivations and even interviewing your spouse, if you have one.

At the end, each committee member writes up a report, recommending or not recommending that you proceed. If the summary report is favorable, then it is approved by the vestry (church council) and passed up to the diocesan level.

After approval on the diocesan level, THEN candidates go to seminary for three years. They spend about a year in a sort of internship at a parish and can be ordained once they are hired by a parish.

The discernment committee is no rubber stamp. I have served on two of them. In the first instance, we all enthusiastically recommended the person, who is now a priest in a small town on the Great Plains (way to get rich, huh?). In the second instance, the questions we asked prompted the person to reconsider and withdraw after four months.

Learn how things actually work before you go off about them.

[rug]

17. Feel free to comment, Promethean. It was directed to you.

Although why you object to a link about Christians who actually live in poverty and are doing good work, as opposed to, oh I don't know, posting what another atheist said on the internet, eludes me.

[rug]

13. If that's his spiel it's a good thing he has a day job.

He's in Austin. these people could use some help.

http://www.catholicworkeraustin.org/about.html

[hrmjustin]

15. Clergy don't make a lot of monry for the most part.

[shenmue]

26. :)

[unrepentant progress]

75. Is a confirmed atheist anything like a confirmed bachelor?

[rug]

76. The latter masturbates more.