What is the baddest, most evil thing Satan/Lucifer/the devil has ever done in the Bible?

[DetlefK]

Well, apart from disobeying God. And asking Jesus tricky questions.

Has he murdered someone or encouraged murder? Has he tortured someone mentally/physically to make a point? Has he impregnated a woman against her will?

[rug]

1. Ask a question he couldn't answer himself.

[AlbertCat]

178. Ask a question he couldn't answer himself.

Why would you ask a question you CAN answer yourself?

[rug]

181. If I were claiming to be equal to God and I wasn't sure if the man in the desert was God,

I might think twice.

[Locrian]

2. hmmmm

Has he destroyed the world in a flood? Cites? Encouraged war? Oh, wait.....that's that other dude....

[brush]

3. "That's that other dude" made me laugh out loud . . .

but aren't you just a little bit afraid of getting struck down by lightning?

I'm still chuckling but I'm trying not to for fear of getting some of the shade that might be coming your way.

[BlueStreak]

202. May I point out that Lucifer never threatened to strike anybody with a bolt of lightening

[brush]

203. No no no . . . something went over somebody's head

Guess you never joked about getting struck down by lightning for doing something God wouldn't like.

"The other dude", the wrathful one, would be sending the lightning.

Get it?

[BlueStreak]

205. Yes. I'm simply pointing out that Satan don't roll that way

For those who might not have been aware.

There are 450,000 churches in the US that are spin doctoring for God every week. Somebody needs to put in a word for Satan now and again.

And let me be clear. The "Grim Reaper" is not Satan. Satan does not represent the Grim Reaper. Satan does not even approve of how he operates. Satan considers the Grim Reaper an amateur hack.

[2naSalit]

72. and don't forget the plagues... n/t

[virtualobserver]

4. he talked a couple of employees into munching on some produce

....and they were fired from the garden center

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

66. LOL

[CrispyQ]

106. Lol!

[LiberalArkie]

5. Created the Bush family

[DetlefK]

7. Wow. They ARE a dynasty.

[LostOne4Ever]

6. Gave humanity the gift of knowledge of good and evil? (nt)

[trotsky]

8. From the most common Christian perspective, yep.

From other perspectives, it could be said that he gave humanity our greatest gift.

[LostOne4Ever]

9. +INFINITY!

I love those memes!

Especially the one about the fiddle

[trotsky]

12. LOL, agreed! n/t

[bvf]

13. Yes! LOL! n/t.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I don't think Yahweh impregnated Mary against her will, but without her consent

or knowledge. So it was more like he snuck ruffies into her drink and had sex with her, but that certainly would be rape in either case.

[rug]

53. Your ignorance is showing.

Google "fiat voluntas tua".

[AlbertCat]

179. Your ignorance is showing.

Yeah.... well sometimes mythology and the baggage of theology thats get dumped on top of it are hard to remember entirely.

It's like trying to remember all the details of the Harry Potter series, or keeping all the Hobbit/Middle Earth minutiae straight.

[rug]

180. Or who the main character is in MacBeth.

[AlbertCat]

189. Or who the main character is in MacBeth.

Only for people who think MacBeth is true.

[rug]

193. No, only for literate people.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. As there is only one deity allegedly, at least in the Abrahamic religions,

how would Satan/Lucifer not be the same entity as Yahweh? These religions are only monotheistic if you squint at them.

[rug]

57. Do you atually believe Satan claimed to be a god?

[cpwm17]

102. In practice, Christianity isn't monotheistic

God, the Devil, and Jesus are separate gods. The identical type of characters in other religions would be considered gods in those religions.

Monotheism is much cooler than polytheism so Christians claim to be Monotheistic.

[rug]

138. That is a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity.

Some Christians reject Trintarianism and are Unitarian in their belief.

But none of them claim polytheisim, to wit, three gods, let alone consider Satan a god.

You might be thinking of Zorastrianism.

[cpwm17]

140. Christians themselves don't consider them gods or separate gods

but in other religions such characters with similar superpowers would be considered gods.

Plus, Jesus and God are separate characters and they are both gods. So that alone makes Christianity polytheistic. No amount of religious handwaving can change the fact that they are separate characters. The Bible treats them as separate, at least the parts I've read.

Matthew 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

[okasha]

152. Read the opening of the gospel of John.

"And he Word was with God, and the Word was God."

[rug]

153. You are really wrong here.

These doctrines have been well-known and around for many, many centuries.

After you learn what the Trinity is, regardless of whether you believe it, google "hypostatic union".

[exboyfil]

14. Read "The Deathbird" by Harlan Ellison

also unintentionally Satan is pretty cool in Paradise Lost.

Probably his afflictions on Job for direct action.

[DetlefK]

15. Jahwe conducted the experiment on Job to prove his point to Lucifer.

Lucifer teased God, but God caused Job's suffering.

[Scuba]

16. Best thread so far today.

[cbayer]

17. Created flame bait?

[AtheistCrusader]

18. It's actually an interesting theological question. Which is precisely why you are here to deflect.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. it is amazing. I'm sure she will be admonished very soon now for her behavior.

I'm holding my breath waiting for one of our hosts to show up and reprimand.

[DetlefK]

19. Nope, I wanted some actual examples of evil things.

I have to admit, I haven't read the Bible back to back.

The only instances I know of the devil showing up are Jehova's and devil's bet about why Job is so happy and the devil trying to lure Jesus away from Jehova. (The devil being the snake is a later interpretation.)

So, I wondered: Why is Lucifer getting such a bad rap? Some republican politician recently demanded a public nativity scene somewhere because otherwise Satan wins.
Why is Satan considered an evil guy?
What has he done?

[cbayer]

20. And I think this is nothing but flame bait.

That being said, I was raised in the church and I can't remember satan or lucifer or the devil ever being mentioned except for the one story about Jesus in the garden.

Clearly what you are saying is that the abrahamic god is evil and even the polar opposite (satan) isn't nearly as bad.

Who's giving Lucifer a bad rap, btw? There is a regular poster here who is a satanist and his POV is generally treated with respect, well at least by those who are not rabidly anti-religion.

I have no idea about this demand for a nativity scene to keep satan from winning. Do you have a link?

Anyway, I have no concept of satan, but you apparently do. What exactly is your concept?

[DetlefK]

23. Are you trying to avoid answering the question?

If you don't know any lines about Satan from the Bible. Fine. But don't charge at ME for asking a question.

I am trying to understand the following: Why is God considered the good guy and Satan is considered the bad guy? Who decided that? And how?

And one satanist poster on a liberal website is not representative of a wider public opinion. Satan this, devil that... 90% of people regard the devil as someone evil. Among Republicans it's 99%, among conservative Christians it's 100%.

Here's the article about the nativity-scene:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/17/michigan-nativity-scene-state-capitol_n_6341800.html
"If we take the nativity-scene down over night, Satan wins!"

Yes, I do have a concept of Satan. I have recently found an interesting theory online and it makes sense to me:
God and Satan are intended as two antagonistic philosophic principles.
God is spiritualism, order, conservation, security.
Satan is materialism, doubt, change, danger.

[cbayer]

25. You seriously are trying to understand this? Seriously?

Well, you seem to have found your answer in the "theory" you posit at the end of your list.

Do you believe in god? In satan? I'm going out on a limb and guess that you don't.

So what you really doing is asking for people to defend their beliefs in these things to you. But you have set them up from the get go by basically saying that god is bad and satan never did anything as bad as god.

Where do you get your statistics about republicans and conservative christians and their views of satan? And since you are posing this ridiculous question on a site that has representatives from neither of those groups, do you have any statistics about progressive/liberals believers and their concept of satan?

Thanks for the link for the other story. Since this is literally a fight between a christian group and a group of satanist, saying "satan wins" is truly what he thinks will happen. Not really a very good example of people throwing around the fear of some nebulous satan.

[DetlefK]

42. Okay, last attempt:

It's really weird. Creationists can't talk about creation without badmouthing evolution and you can't seem to approach this without talking about God.
Yeah, I was mocking a little bit in my OP, but I didn't expect people to be THAT sensitive here on DU. (And all those jokes by atheists here are a waste of time either.) I guess, DU is the wrong place to go when trying to reach someone out of a groupthink-bubble.

Last attempt:
Does the devil do evil things in the Bible?
If yes, where can I find these particular stories in terms of chapters and verses?
Can you help me with that or do I really have to go and read that whole thing myself?

[AtheistCrusader]

47. In the abrahamic tradition, god is the source of all evil.

Isaiah 45

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -KJV
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." -NIV

And, as the followers of the Abrahamic faiths are wont to remind us endlessly, god created all things, therefore, god created satan, sin, evil, mosquitos, and Dick Cheney.

[DetlefK]

75. And where can I find those 10?

[AtheistCrusader]

78. The book of job.

God is working his way through the bet with Satan and to prove his faith in Job's enduring allegiance to god, god says 'go ahead man, kill his kids' and Satan kills the seven sons and three daughters of Job to try and make him despair and give up his faith in god.

[cbayer]

48. Now you are being completely disingenuous.

Are you honestly going to claim that this is not a reference to god?

Has he murdered someone or encouraged murder? Has he tortured someone mentally/physically to make a point? Has he impregnated a woman against her will?

You brought god into the picture. This entire OP is a challenge to believers to defend god.

Your OP comes across as mocking and not sincere in the least. If you meant it as sincere, then I have completely misread it.

I think you have been around this group enough to know what the hot buttons are and I think you deliberately chose one. To feign surprise at the reaction is pretty funny.

I can't help you in the least. As I said, I wasn't raised with much of a concept of the devil and I have no idea where in the bible you might find those things.

But if you are genuinely curious, I would suggest you read it for yourself. You aren't going to accept anything a believer here says anyway, imo.

[Goblinmonger]

55. You should be able to answer it and he'd accept it, then.

You aren't going to accept anything a believer here says anyway, imo.

You not being a believer and all, you should be able to provide that answer. But you have no concept of Satan, so I guess in that regard you aren't much help. I hope you realize that you really don't have much of a chance of having any ability to talk about what the Bible says anymore since you have no idea about where he comes up in the Bible.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. Every time someone new comes in here with a negative view of religion, she tries to badger them out

the door. Immediately, and enthusiastically. It's bad behavior IMO.

Good thing I'm not a host.

Examples that I sincerely encourage the jury to review:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=169751
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=163603

What happens when the newbie is actively conciliatory after being negative and getting attacked?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=166786

And what happens when the newbie posts a somewhat positive position on religion?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=167852

Compare and contrast.

[trotsky]

77. Nice collection of links.

Definitely shows a pattern. I'm sure the host(s) who is(are) concerned so deeply about respectful behavior and discussion will immediately address the situation. Or not.

[cleanhippie]

101. Bullies will be bullies.

And in a place like this, there doesn't seem to be much one can do about it.

[cbayer]

76. I don't have an answer for him.

Oh no, it's the no true non-believer accusation!!

That's #17, if my playbook is up to date.

You are right, I am no help in answering his completely unanswerable question which he posed already knowing the answer.

Thank you for educating me about my lack of ability to talk about the bible. I already knew that and have never tried to say otherwise.

Hey, why don't you tell him about Job? Don't bother, I know what his response will be - it was really god that did all the bad stuff to job, not satan.

[Warren Stupidity]

127. I'm thinking you really never read Job.

Your responses in this thread reveal a profound ignorance on the topic. If it were actually one of your favorite bible stories, as you have stated, one would think you knew *something* about the basic story.

I'll help you out, here is the wiki synopsis of the Prologue

Prologue on earth and in heaven[edit]

The prologue on earth shows the righteous Job blessed with wealth and sons and daughters. The scene shifts to heaven, where God asks satan (ha-satan, literally "the accuser&quot for his opinion of Job's piety. Satan answers that Job is pious only because God has blessed him; if God were to take away everything that Job had, then he would surely curse God. God gives Satan permission to take Job's wealth and children, but Job praises God: "Naked I came out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: the Lord has given, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." God allows satan to afflict his body with boils. Job sits in ashes; his wife prompts him to "curse God, and die," but Job answers: "Shall we receive good from God and shall we not receive evil?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job#Prologue_on_earth_and_in_heaven

So to have at all comprehended this "all time fav bible story" one would at the least know that god and satan were playing a game using Job. That is the core of the story. Is Job truly pious? That is the challenge over which the game is played. Job is a pawn in this game between god and satan. Both god and satan can be held accountable (but by who?) for the massive harm that is inflicted on Job and his family.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. Also, don't let Cbayer bully you out of here. You asked a good question.

Framing of the question was biased, but LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS AROUND HERE, AMIRITE?

Ignore the badgers, stay for the fun. There is fun, at times. No worries.

[edhopper]

29. According to this theory

I guess I am a satanist, at least philosophically.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Fallback position #1 for me.

If at some point a god resembling the god of Abraham is somehow proven to be real, I've already analyzed enough of his claimed nonsense to know I could never lend it my allegiance.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[trotsky]

41. YouGov Poll Says Nearly 60% of Americans Believe the Devil is Real

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/09/21/yougov-poll-says-nearly-60-of-americans-believe-the-devil-is-real/

Gallup found that "belief in the devil has increased from 55% in 1990 to 70% in 2004."
http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx

Your experiences and beliefs are clearly in the minority here.

[2naSalit]

83. "Gallup found that "belief in the devil has increased from 55% in 1990 to 70% in 2004."

Probably because we have so many living examples of "evil" in our midst these days... many rely on anecdotal evidence so this poll finding makes plenty of sense.

[Goblinmonger]

44. You never covered Job?

Really? I find that hard to believe.

I also find it hard to believe that one is raised in a Christian church and did not have a concept of Satan.

And you really should read Paradise Lost. It's incredible and, for the time period, paints the dark angel in a surprisingly sympathetic light.

[cbayer]

52. Job is actually one of my favorite stories.

It was taught to me as allegory and I referred to it later at a particularly difficult time in my life. I have never had any real concept of satan. Bad shit happens.

You can find anything you want hard to believe. You have already dismissed the kind of church I was raised in, even though there are many out there.

Thanks for the book referral. I might get to it. I enjoy fiction with religious themes.

[Goblinmonger]

59. I'm trying to react to this as calmly as possible.

Are you really trying to tell me that Job is one of your favorite stories and that you have no concept of Satan or where he shows up in the Bible? What version of the story of Job did you read?

[Warren Stupidity]

62. ooops

Well we know how this is going to go.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. We had a very large thread on this a year ago or so.

The answers to your questions are mind-boggling.

[cbayer]

81. Don't hurt yourself.

I am not a believer. I dabbled in belief briefly during my late adolescent, but it wasn't there for me.

I was brought up in a church and household where stories from the bible were told as stories. They were discussed as allegory and metaphor and places from which one could derive lessons and start conversations.

Don't question my experience. I don't have a concept of god and I don't have a concept of satan. Bad shit happens. Good shit happens. It's how you deal with it that is important.

And you can park your sarcasm. Hope being civil isn't straining you too much.

I found a fabulous picture of a militant atheism the other day. He looked like his head was about to explode.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. "Don't hurt yourself" and again the odd veiled threat shows up.

[cleanhippie]

112. While at the same time berating another for "not being civil"

I swear, if it ain't a Poe, what else could it be?

[AtheistCrusader]

119. Poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe

poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe

oh shit, sorry, I got stuck in a recursion.

[cleanhippie]

124. ha!

Makes me wonder if "poe" and "troll" can be used synonymously.

[AtheistCrusader]

125. That's essentially the use of it, as found in this forum of late.

[trotsky]

126. Correct, it's a word that is thrown out...

to try and instantly dismiss someone and anything they have to say.

[Warren Stupidity]

128. It is a misuse. "A Poe" is a thing only here.

[phil89]

104. You might want to reread

That hideous story because satan is in it. And God is every bit as bad in his torture of job. Odd story to enjoy.

[cbayer]

111. I might just reread it.

In my opinion, it is a great story. It's suspenseful, full of amazing imagery, heartbreaking and when it seems most hopeless, there is hope. Life is hard - that's the first tenet of Buddhism and that is the basic tenet of Job.

Suck it up. Don't imagine you can understand or make sense of what it happening to you. You will most likely survive and you will most likely learn a great deal during the process.

I turned to it at a point in my life when I thought there was no hope.

It's not an odd story to enjoy, it's a great story.

Are there any biblical stories that you enjoy or have gained from?

[AtheistCrusader]

123. There's hope unless you're one of job's kids, or servants.

Because they are all killed for pretty much no reason at all.

(And the servants deaths come at the hands of 'the fire of god' so, nobody lays their deaths at satans feet, like they do with the sons and daughters.)

[Warren Stupidity]

133. No it is a story of hope and redemption!

You are so wrong. The only life that matters in this story is that of the Patriarch Job. His wives and children and slaves are no more important than his goats. Plus it gives important medical advice on how to treat skin diseases: use a shard and start scraping.

[Warren Stupidity]

134. "Don't imagine you can understand or make sense of what it happening to you."

it might be, for example, that a batshit crazy psycho-deity and his side-kick/alter-ego are just fucking with you.

[edhopper]

21. He tells people

they don't have to worship God.

To some this is the worst sin imaginable.

The stuff God does is never bad cause God did it. It's like what Nixon said about the Presidency, if the President does it , it can't be illegal.

[cbayer]

22. Yeah, that's the ticket. God is just like Nixon and the devil is just like Dawkins.

Did I get that right?

[edhopper]

24. No

I am speaking about the people who actually believe in Satan. His great sin is to not worship God.

And they also usually excuse any dark act by God.
Because if God did it, it can't be wrong.

[cbayer]

26. Er, I tend to think their position is that if it was wrong, it wasn't god.

That may look similar, but it's really not the same thing.

But you continue to push that lame meme that religious believers will excuse anything religious. You need new shoes.


p.s. are you related to the OP? You have similar styles.

[edhopper]

27. You are mistaking what I am saying

I was talking about Fundamentalists and Born-Agains who believe Satan is real and has had an active role in things.

The bad things I was referring to are those events in the Bible, like killing the first born or genocide, rape and slavery.

But I understand the mistake since other threads have discussed different ideas. I was responding to one thing with out delineating it.

[cbayer]

39. Yeah, it's the rather persistent lack of delineation that I keep pointing out.

You have a very bad habit of talking about believers as a monolith. Frankly, I think that actually represents your POV.

But since there really are distinctions to be made and there really are good liberal/progressive religious believers that post here, delineation seems critical.

Otherwise it just appears intolerant and rather prejudiced.

We are all on the same team when it comes to republicans and the religious right. Let's define them and, with the religious left, attack together.

[edhopper]

43. I think I was pretty clear from the beginning

I was talking about people who actually believed in Satan.

I never said what percentage of people do.

I really don't talk about believers as a monolith, except for their having belief.

You just want me to leave the beliefs alone if they are like minded in other areas.

That is your agenda. I choose to look at beliefs where ever they come from.

[cbayer]

58. You are right. My agenda is to find commonalities instead of differences

and to stop the divisiveness pursued by those who are supposedly on the same side but see the need to attack others simply because they believe in a god.

Yep, that's the ticket.

You choose to challenge beliefs and believers even if their beliefs are the motivators for accomplishing shared goals.

How that working for you?

[edhopper]

60. Fine

it leads to the discussions that I am interested in.

[cbayer]

86. Perfect then. A lot of your "discussions" seem to be with me.

[edhopper]

88. True

I think that is because you respond a lot.

You seem to be very interested in my views on religion.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. She's also got several of us on ignore. Narrows the field a bit.

[cbayer]

97. I am indeed very interested in your views on religion.

And I greatly appreciate that you are civil in your discussions and don't seem to have an agenda about me personally.

[trotsky]

33. "are you related to the OP? You have similar styles."

Are you accusing ed of using a sock poppet? That is really not conducive to discussion. Don't attack the person, attack the idea.

[Goblinmonger]

45. I'm sure a host will be along to tell you that isn't cool.

You're accusing ed of having a sock here? That's pretty shitty.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Shitty, and a wildly unnecessary thing to have in this venue.

Like, where did that accusation even come from. WHY would he have a sock?

I am cornfuzed.

[cbayer]

73. What is it with you guys and your taking pretty much everything I say and distorting it.

I didn't accuse anyone of having a sock. I am familiar with both of these individuals. I noted that they have similar styles and asked if they were related. It was, at worst, tongue in cheek.

It's the gross distortion of what I say that is really pretty shitty. But you probably don't see that.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. "It was, at worst, tongue in cheek" - so at worst you were just

*humorously* implying they were socks. OIC.

[AtheistCrusader]

98. '*if* I offended anyone, I (non-apology)...'

[trotsky]

32. WTF?

Where the hell did Dawkins come from? Ease up, cbayer. Geez.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. Apparantly the whole problem of the evil twin god of christianity

is a bit of a hot button for somebody who is allegedly not a believer.

[trotsky]

40. Clearly a nerve was touched, to use one of her favorite phrases.

Rather rude to dismiss one of the most complex questions about Christian theology and the role of Satan as "flamebait."

[cleanhippie]

61. Well, to be fair, that about sums up the entire Christian response to that question

Every time it's been brought up for 2000 years.

They simply don't wanto talk about it, because to do so would force them to recognize and accept the fatal flaws fucking up the entire premise.

[trotsky]

69. Agreed.

The most simple analysis of the Garden of Eden story and the serpent (assumed to be Satan by most, I believe) is that in the end, the serpent TOLD THE TRUTH.

God said they would die if they ate of the tree. The serpent said they wouldn't. Point goes to serpent.

[TreasonousBastard]

183. Well, in a way they did die-- they lost their innocence.

They also became fully human, and no longer the one-dimensional creature they started out as.

Fundamental to our existence is the matter of choice. God (or whatever) can't create us to think independently because that would, pretty much by definition, mean we were not independent. We must choose it.

And that doesn't mean an agent (like a snake) can't help us make that choice.

I don't buy into this mythology as history any more than you do, but mythology breaks down complex moral and philosophical points to the basics that can be understood on many levels and give insights into the belief system.

Milton was big on that. Really big on that.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. WTF - self referential irony much?

it is a theological question in the religion forum.

[Goblinmonger]

49. You might want to come in here without guns blazing.

I mean, just a suggestion.

[cbayer]

68. Saying "created flame bait" is guns blazing? Say, you're not the one who alerted on

that post are you? The jury decided to leave it 0-7.

You think I should take suggestions from you about how to behave in this group? You can not possibly be serious.

[Goblinmonger]

70. No, that's not something I would alert on because I know it wouldn't succeed.

My point is that for someone who has talked about having a better tone in here (not something that comes from me a lot, btw), you might want to actually try see what this person has to say and have a conversation rather than just come out with "this is flamebait" as your first salvo.

[cbayer]

84. You assume that I am too stupid to see this for exactly what it is.

But gee, this post of yours sounds a lot like the alert. Perhaps it was a group effort.

I know this person and I think I am pretty clear on his agenda.

It looks like complete flame bait to me and I called it that. Don't nanny me, particularly if you do little to improve the tone. FTR, "Nannying" is #32 in the playbook.

[Goblinmonger]

90. Call me a liar all you want.

I didn't alert on that post. I did alert the one that got rug his hide. I did alert one of 5 posts that stone space got hidden (don't remember which one exactly at this point but I kept the message so I can look it up if you need to know).

Don't nanny me,

Hopefully in your Schrodinger's knowing/not knowing of the Bible, you came across the plank in your own eye bit. You do know that if you stopped being nanny to everyone here, the calling out of the bullshit you did would stop. It's the hypocrisy we are pointing out.

[cbayer]

103. Another gross distortion. I didn't call you a liar at all, I just noted that the wording was

really similar to your post. I will share it with you if you want and I think you will be amazed at how similar they are.

You don't have to explain alerts to me. You are welcome to alert on anything you want, as is anyone else.

As I said, I made the nanny comment on purpose because it is #32 in the playbook of all the horrible things cbayer does and says.

The calling out of the "bullshit" I do will never stop, because it doesn't matter what I do or say. It will be distorted and repeated for years.

You (plural) will never back down, but you (singular) could choose not to be a part of it.

Honestly, I don't foresee that happening. Too much at stake.

[Warren Stupidity]

110. well yes you did, but whatever.

[trotsky]

113. You're right about one thing. There IS too much at stake.

Many of us want to actually DISCUSS religious belief and the implications of it, and its impact in the world - in a manner that might not always praise and celebrate how wonderful it is.

You seem to be viscerally opposed to that. This thread is a classic example. You just KNOW what someone really means. You launch right into attacking them for what YOU perceive their question to be. That really makes this group, and DU, suck.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You don't get to decide what can or cannot be posted in this group. You don't have mind-reading powers that let you judge others and condemn them with a first strike. Look at this thread and you can see there were multiple responses to the OP that expressed appreciation for the question being asked. Are you going to berate all of them?

[PassingFair]

192. Endlessly entertaining though....

It's the crusade for commonality!

And what you don't hold in common with me must not be discussed in MY room!

[Warren Stupidity]

92. "Don't nanny me" - seriously?

You go from thread to thread nannying atheists who have crossed your lines, handing out admonishments and warnings and scoldings. You rarely if ever actually discuss an issue here.

[Rainforestgoddess]

30. This is a great question. I

I hope someone with a lot of biblical knowledge takes it seriously and answers.

[nichomachus]

31. Very interesting question.

A friend of mine did his doctoral dissertation on Satan in the New Testament. Now, I'll have to actually read it. Damn.

[d_r]

34. he acts up in

Revalations

[d_r]

35. oh

He tries to talk Jesus in to not being crucified to save us all

[Man from Pickens]

36. "non serviam"

That declaration is the actual crime for which the angel Lucifer is said to have been cast out of Heaven.

[rug]

63. +1

[edhopper]

46. I'll answer this again

Last edited Thu Dec 18, 2014, 01:21 PM - Edit history (1)

and try to be clear.

For those who believe in Satan, that he is real and a force of evil, the worst thing he did was stop worshiping God.

For a certain strain of Christianity, not giving yourself to God is the biggest sin. all else can be forgiven.

The bad things you mention which we can attribute to God in the Bible are excused because if God does it it cannot be wrong, it is just not possible for us mere humans to understand it.
If God deems it necessary to cause genocide, rape and the death of innocent children, who are we to question it.

Again this is the ideas of a part of Christianity who believe Satan as a real entity. (rather than a concept to be interpreted)

[DetlefK]

80. Thanks.

[cbayer]

87. Wow, for an atheist you sure do have some really clear ideas about what

christians think.

And you use the 1st person plural in describing it as well….. over and over and over again.

That's really curious.

Are you an official spokesperson or something?

[edhopper]

89. Some Christians

The ones I have spoken to or have seen and heard their beliefs.

Some of this stuff is all over YouTube, if you are interested.

[cbayer]

107. Not interested on what is on youtube.

I know that some people hold the views that you put forward. I do not think that all those who belief in satan hold those views.

It's all about the ability to make distinctions and delineations, as we discussed.

[edhopper]

114. I was giving the OP

an answer to his question about believers in Satan and what he did wrong.


You seem to have a problem with my answer, mainly because you want to make it what it was not.

But such is the nature of this.

[Goblinmonger]

99. Nowhere in there did he say all Christians.

Are you denying that there are no Christian sects that believe what he said?

The sin of Lucifer was that he wouldn't serve God anymore. So he got kicked out. As Milton points out in Paradise Lost (which, honestly, is the source for what most people think they "know" about Lucifer), Lucifer then got a little pissed that God would turn his back on his first creation (angels) in favor of his new pet of the day, humans. That's why he goes and fucks with Adam.

[cbayer]

108. Read it again. I know it's hard to try and read what I say without finding

something really bad about it, but I think you can do it.

He is not clear who he is talking about. All christians? Christians who believe in Satan? He uses we and us over and over again, but there is a real lack of clarity as to who he is speaking for.

I like the story you present. It wasn't an important part of what I was raised with.

I guess I see the "devil" in very allegorical terms - impulses to do the wrong thing, which we all have, of course. The stories I know fit that picture and the story makes sense. One is most likely to do the wrong thing when one feels hurt or scorned by someone important to them. At least that is true for me.

[edhopper]

115. And though I explained that

several times, you choose to see something different in my answers.

So it goes.

[pinto]

120. Yeah, the satan stories have some of that theme - he's hurt, overlooked, scorned and reacts.

Agree, it's allegorical yet on point in many ways. (I guess that's the neatest knack of allegory).

[cbayer]

122. He's like a wounded child, something we are all familiar with, I am sure.

We each have our wounded child and s/he must be monitored for misbehavior.

[bvf]

182. Correction.

Last edited Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:25 AM - Edit history (1)

I think you meant to say that he has some really clear ideas of what christians are taught, but it would have probably been a lot harder to shoehorn much snark into your response that way.

His interpretation is pretty consistent with my remembered christian education, as I'm sure it is with many others'.

Looking through this thread, it's pretty clear who's got a firm grasp on lore and who doesn't.

Aside: Woody Allen had a hilarious piece regarding the Job story that appeared, IIRC, in The NewYorker decades ago (god twists Job's nose until it looks like a Molly screw, Job doesn't even know what "kine" are, etc.) You should look it up.

[okasha]

56. Read the book.

Think for yourself.

[edhopper]

64. So just read the Bible

and decide for yourself. Don't ask others about it.

You know for someone who makes pronouncements of what the origins of all parts of the Bible and other myths are, it's intersting that you dismiss asking if any one has knowledge of a question.

[okasha]

79. As a retired teacher with instincts still intact,

I expect students to read the assignment, not try to get others to do their work for them. Critical thinking, and all that.

[edhopper]

85. So you think

just reading the Bible, will give you the answer to the OPs question?

It's a long book, since he is only interested in the passages about Satan, perhaps you could list all the parts of the Bible that only deal with him.

That would be a more realistic "assignment" than reading the whole damn thing.

[okasha]

91. He can use a concordance.

[edhopper]

116. Now that is a productive answer

much better than the snarky, condescending one you first posted.

[notadmblnd]

121. And as a teacher who's students have read the assignment and ask questions

for clarification, your reply to them would be?

[okasha]

154. Open class discussion on the subject.

[notadmblnd]

155. where questions would be allowed?

[okasha]

156. How would you have a discussion

where questions weren't allowed? Or where students weren't allowed to answer their peers' questions?

This all depends, of course, on everyone's having prepped the assignment.

[notadmblnd]

157. So, peers answered your former students questions during class discussions, and your role was?

I asked this because you have avoided a direct answer to my question which was; would you answer their questions.

I was just wondering if you would respond by telling them to do their own homework and not expect others to do it for them- as you did here? I guess I got my answer in an indirect way.

Btw, handing out assignments does not a teacher make.

[okasha]

161. My students were adults.

In college and university teaching, it's generally considered preferable for the instructor to be a facilitator rather than a dispenser of pat answers. On matters of fact and background, of course I answered questions. On matters of interpretation, I considered any conclusion the student could support from the text to be correct and encouraged them to learn from each other's viewpoints.

It's a pretty standard approach, actually.

[notadmblnd]

165. Hopefully your responses to your former adult students

weren't as trite and snarky as your answers have been to some of the people you have responded to here.

You have a good evening now.

[okasha]

168. "Some of the people here"

deserved the responses they got.

Que ya tengas buenas noches.

[notadmblnd]

195. What's that thing in the Bible about not judging?

Some of my favorites



James 1:26 ESV /

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Titus 3:2-7 ESV /

To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,




James 4:12 ESV / 1,177
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3 ESV /
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29 ESV /

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14:1-13 ESV /

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.


Ciao

[okasha]

207. Sorry. I'm neither Christian or Jewish.

My holy book is John Britt's Glazing and Firing at Cone 10.. The only gods it mentions are the kiln gods/goddess.

[Goblinmonger]

148. Totally. Just did that today in class.

Talking about Huck Finn and a kid is like "How does Tom Sawyer fit into all this" and I was like "Read the fucking book."

I didn't, really. And that question did really happen either. But at least I know how I should respond next time something like that comes up.

[rug]

65. But there are so many websites with ready-made lists.

[Goblinmonger]

67. Why do you even come on a discussion board, then?

I think this should be the reply of everyone to you from now on.

[LostOne4Ever]

82. Just want to say I hope our local satanist posts with his views on this.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I find his views on things like this fascinating.

Probably, because I had those thought myself at one time. My posts in this thread have been half in jest, but I really do think this is an interesting subject.

[font style="font-family:'Brush Script MT',''Lucida handwriting','forte',cursive;" size=5 color=crimson]Lucifer[/font], aka the light bringer, aka the morning star, just makes more sense to me as a good guy fighting against a tyrannical demiurge. It brings new meaning to the section talking about the way being narrow and few travel it (Mathew 7 iirc?).

Christianity is the largest religion in the world today, how can the way be narrow under that condition? But if all Christianity is being deceived into worshiping the evil god and defaming the good god trying to free them? Wouldn't that result in the way to salvation being traveled by the few?

Not to mention, the question about the nature of [font style="font-family:'Brush Script MT',''Lucida handwriting','forte',cursive;" size=5 color=crimson]good and evil[/font] in the bible. Does morality come from said god, or does it go beyond him? Genesis says we know the difference between good and evil, so what does it mean when god commits evil acts? If morality comes from god does that mean god thinks his own actions in the bible are evil? If it goes beyond him doesn't that mean that he might actually be evil?

Of course, even in this light, the bible still has issue after issue (no evidence and many contradictions for example), but the actions of YWHW makes more sense (to me)if we see him as the bad guy. Of course, this line of thinking is probably the height of blasphemy to many believers.

But I can't help but entertain such thoughts.[/font]

[cbayer]

129. That would be Prophet451 and I would also like to hear what he has to say.

He is probably the person who could actually, honestly answer this question.

I think this whole thing falls apart when one tries to make a black and white distinction between good and evil. Sometimes good is done for evil reasons and sometimes evil is done for good reasons, and rarely is something really pure.

I started to watch the movie Noah last night. I'm not really getting into it, but I thought it was interesting that the premise is that god has to destroy the world because humans have messed it up so badly. There seems to be a global warming corollary there.

[AtheistCrusader]

137. Yeah, because none of the rest of us could read a fucking book.

Honestly, I come to much the same conclusions as Prophet 451, with the exception of, I do not invest faith in the existence of satan either. Otherwise, our takeaways from the bible are much the same.

[LostOne4Ever]

159. There are quite a number of games and anime with plots similar to that

Especially those with pro-environmental message. Its kinda surprising to me how well some of those stories are handled, especially given that I am used to how that type of story is handled by the US film industry.

In fact, I am convinced that when I was a kid the US film industry did everything they could to make any pro-environmental movie or show as preachy and intolerable as possible. If what you say is true I hope Noah (haven't seen it) is a step in the opposite direction.

[cbayer]

162. I am going to watch the rest of it tonight.

I generally like this kind of epic tale, but this one isn't really grabbing me.

Never heard of Captain Planet and the Planeteers, but it looks like a big dud.

I remember many of my childhood shows having a positive environmental message.

[Dont call me Shirley]

174. The Narrow Way/Path, the Tao is the Healing Path. Always do which is conducive to healing.

I'm not sure if satan was a healer. I have always heard of him as a troublemaker, not a healer.

[LostOne4Ever]

176. But what if that was all propaganda?

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Wouldn't it make more sense for a malevolent being to try and make people think it is the good one and the benevolent being is the evil one?

Besides, the tao that you know is not the true Tao.[/font]

[Dont call me Shirley]

177. Speaking from personal experience, the healing path (whatever it is called), the path of kindness,

generosity, compassion, non-violence, trust, etc is the correct path to self-awareness. "To know thyself is divine", not in Randian concept, but as a knowledge of true self, higher self. To know the true Tao, one would need to know their true self.

Manipulating others to believe that which is true is a lie and that which is a lie is true is on the slippery slope to evil. I'm not sure if an actual god-being or satan-being exists, I highly doubt that. I'm still in the process of "losing my religion" in order to find truth. We are not supposed to create an image of god, according to the bible. I strongly suspect god/devil are archetypes or energy patterns symbolizing the yin-yang concept in a less balanced, more emotionally charged package.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. I have to say the massive diversion in this thread is the best part.

It shows the deep dishonesty of some posters here, their desire to shut down actual discussions about religion and keep this forum a shit flinging orangutan cage.

[Goblinmonger]

105. Shit flinging rage monkey

[TreasonousBastard]

184. That's good! I saved it...

now to find some place to use it.

[pinto]

100. In the Latin tellings of the tale - Pride

As in "pride goeth before the fall".

The story goes along these lines, iirc - Satan rose an army of angels to overthrow god's rule in heaven. He led a third of the total in heaven into an epic battle. They lost and the third in revolt were cast out of heaven to hell. Yet, they were not mortal so continued an existence in exile, as it were. In recourse, Satan brought pride to god's favored - the mortals, Adam and Eve - in the form of the apple, from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's portrayed as a devious end run on the maxim that the fruit should not be eaten. Adam and Eve were caused to leave the Garden of Eden and make their own way in the world of good and evil.

Ancient Greeks, Jews and Muslims have similar tales. I've found them interesting.

[cbayer]

117. I am learning quite a lot here.

I just did a little research and found out that Satan means "the accuser" or "the prosecutor" in Hebrew.

Seems his primary role in the stories is in challenging god, sometimes by messing with humans.

[cleanhippie]

130. I love that you're pretending to just now discover the Satan character.

[Goblinmonger]

131. Well, she didn't know who Shaggy was, either.

So, I think I can only move forward thinking she would get no allusion at all.

[cleanhippie]

132. Wha? Didn't know who Shaggy was?

The rapper OR Scooby's friend?


I call bullshit. Smells like Poe, through and through.

[Goblinmonger]

135. Yeah

Here

There was a whole discussion about it here were I was informed it was just a horrible, stupid cartoon.

[TreasonousBastard]

186. That's an interesting, although one-dimensional, idea...

and it explains how Satan became the bad guy. It's also pretty much what they taught me in Sunday School.

Somewhere down below I'll put another idea out.

[WovenGems]

109. Per a song

"There ain't no devil, that's just God when he's drunk".

[Heddi]

118. I think this is a great question for this group, and I'm sorry someone tried (is trying) so hard to

derail it.

THIS is the kind of conversation this group needs. Questions about religion, about beliefs, about why we believe or don't believe what we do.

Back when I went to church and did all that hoo-ha, it seemed to me that (as others have pointed out), the biggest thing about Satan is that he defied God. He didn't just do the "blind obedience" thing like God wants.

God said not to eat from the tree of knowledge---bad things would happen. Well, self-awareness happened. Independent thought happened. Questioning authority happened. The narrative is that Satan "tempted" Eve (who then "tempted" Adam) to do the bad thing that would get them banished from paradise forever. But tempted? Is tempted and encouraged the same thing? Tempted to gain knowledge vs being a mindless drone who just does what they're told to do.

I really hope that you're not dissuaded by the nastiness upthread by a poster who holds herself as the Queen of Kumbyah (except when she isn't). This is a great question and I know many of us are glad to see this type of discussion here. Sure beats the endless articles about how awful non-believers are and how super-duper the Pope is.

[iscooterliberally]

136. He was 'round when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain.

Made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate.



Great question btw! Thanks for this post.

[pinto]

139. LOL. I give up...

Have fun all.

[Heddi]

142. This was a great discussion until Cbayer decided, unilaterally, that it was flamebait

when it clearly wasn't. It's a discussion about one of the cornerstones of Christian theology--Satan is bad, God is Good. But why is Satan bad? What did he do to earn the reputation as being the polar opposite of God. For all the good that God is, Satan is equally evil. Why?

I think many people have made some very interesting comments here, yourself included.

But what was not interesting, not warranted, was Cbayer charging in and accusing the OP of flamebait FOR NO REASON. She says she knows his history therefore questions his motivations....really? Like THAT adds to the discussion. No links, no proof. Just her intimate "knowledge" of someone else's purpose for posting a thread that, for all intents and purposes, fits the SOP of this group TO A TEE.

So maybe you should PM your friend and suggest she cool her jets when accusing others (who really don't ever post in this group at all) from being flame-baity trolls (and casually implying that they are a sock of another poster) for no reason.

The OP wasn't dogging on God. The OP wasn't trashing Christianity. The OP is asking a question that I'm sure every serious theologian has asked at one time or another. So why the nasty response from her?

Any derailment of this thread lies squarely on HER shoulders. Remove her subthread, and her nasty accusations towards and about others, and you have, well, a pretty pleasant thread with pretty pleasant replies that does not deviate ONE IOTA from the SOP of this group.

[cleanhippie]

143. As usual Heddi, you nailed it again.

[Heddi]

144. I'm sorry, but her actions in this thread are bullshit

and EXACTLY the kind of thing that so many hosts of religion (former, current, wanna-be, etc) always wag their finger at Atheists for engaging in yet NEVER chide their own for doing.

PURE disruption in this thread FOR NO REASON other than SHE didn't like it for some reason THEREFORE it's flame-bait. The OP is a poe. The OP is edhopper's sock (no no, not a sock. I mean they write the same so they're probably related, because we all know that writing style on an internet forum is genetic in nature). She knows the OP's history and questions their motiviations. She's a preacher's daughter who has never heard of Satan. Her favourite story is Job but doesn't recall this crazy Satan guy in there at all.

Pure 100% horse-shit behaviour on her part.

But will the hosts admonish HER for making this group unwelcome to newcomers? Will the hosts publically call HER out as they have done to you, and to I, and to Skeptiscott (just the other day, but it wasn't a call out, it was a post to everyone even though it was directed squarely at Skeptiscott) and to all the other A/A posters here?

I'd hold my breath, but I don't feel like being hypoxic this early in the day

[cbayer]

141. I am going to offer my apologies to you.

This has turned out to be an interesting thread and I may have jumped the gun in judging it (and you).

As I have no real concept of the satan character, it has forced me to do some research and to read some of these posts carefully.

Although I can't tell you I know of every reference to this character in the bible, it seems like satan's main role is in challenging god and often using humans, who he knows god loves, to do that.

That's a great allegorical tale about hate and anger and revenge.

It's almost an oedipus tale, though the father seems to survive the attempts to kill him.

[trotsky]

145. This is great to see from you. I think it will help.

As would apologies to everyone else you jumped on for pointing out that you were jumping the gun in judging the thread AND DetlefK.

[Heddi]

146. key word "may"

I MAY have jumped the gun.

Never actually says "hey, sorry for derailing your thread."

just that she MAY have jumped the gun. She's not sure yet. There is a possibility that the gun was jumped appropriately. She'll let you know later.

[Warren Stupidity]

147. " I may have jumped the gun" is a non apology.

Here is how you could have actually apologized:

"I'm sorry for my bullshit post up-thread where I accused you of posting flame-bait and subsequently inferred that you were a sock-puppet of another poster here. That was wrong. I will try my best to not do something as embarrassingly awful as that again".

[edhopper]

149. Well speaking for all atheists

and Christians, I will accept your apology.

[trotsky]

150. Oh, ed.

[cbayer]

151. Well played….

but I am far from apologizing to all atheists and christians.

[Heddi]

158. You were far from apologizing to the OP

You suggested that you should do it, then actually didn't. So you haven't actually apologized to anyone in this thread.

[DetlefK]

197. Forget it. Everything's fine. :D

[pinto]

160. Got a call from mash up central. What's the score?

They want an update.

[cbayer]

163. It's a tie and we may have to go into overtime.

God is putting up a good fight, but you know how tricky that Satan can get.

[pinto]

164. Consensus of the Group's hosts. We're locking this.

Discussion has become divisive and extremely personal among members of the group. Thanks for your understanding.

(aside) I've made some posts in the thread and that is apparent to the host team. Consensus is to lock this discussion.

[Warren Stupidity]

166. And we are back.

[cleanhippie]

167. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

And that right there is where this shitshow should end.

[cleanhippie]

171. What are you talking about?

[darkangel218]

172. Not sure. Were you agreeing with the OP?

( that the thread needed to be unlocked )

Never mind, you did. I misread your post.

[hrmjustin]

170. I consider satan to be more the lawyer accuser type.

Never been big on the idea if hell though.

[goldent]

173. This thread got me to thinking about a Cheers episode

Cheers was a TV comedy about a group of characters who hung out in a bar.

One of the characters was a psychology researcher. On one episode, somehow a machine used in animal studies was brought into the bar. The machine would offer a peanut, but when you took the peanut you would get a horrible electrical shock. It was explained that animals would soon learn that even though they really wanted that peanut, it wasn't worth the shock they would get, so they would just ignore it.

There were two other characters in the bar (Norm and Cliff) who were intrigued with the machine and would periodical try to get the peanut. They would get the peanut, but each time would get a shock. The shock would put them off a while, but they would try to think of some way to get the peanut without the shock and try again. But it was no use, they would always get another shock. Of course the joke was that lab animals would quickly learn to ignore the machine, but these men could not help themselves, they would just keep trying.

It was a great joke, because it worked as different levels.

[muriel_volestrangler]

175. Since this doesn't seem to have been covered, Satan is in the apocryphal books too

In the Book of Wisdom, the devil is represented as the one who brought death into the world.[8] The Second Book of Enoch contains references to a Watcher angel called Satanael,[9] describing him as the prince of the Grigori who was cast out of heaven[10] and an evil spirit who knew the difference between what was "righteous" and "sinful".[11] A similar story is found in 1 Enoch; however, in that book, the leader of the Grigori is called Semjâzâ. In the apocryphal literature, Satan rules over a host of angels.[12] Mastema, who induced God to test Abraham through the sacrifice of Isaac, is identical with Satan in both name and nature.[13] The Book of Enoch contains references to Sathariel, thought also to be Sataniel and Satan'el. The similar spellings mirror that of his angelic brethren Michael, Raphael, Uriel and Gabriel, previous to his expulsion from Heaven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Apocrypha.2FDeuterocanon

In the second section (chapters 22-37) Enoch, now guided by Gabriel, is allowed to enter in the seventh heaven where he sees the Lord face to face. Afterwards he is anointed by Michael and becomes similar in appearance to the angels. God tests the obedience of his angels by having them bow down before Enoch. A group of angels refuse. This group is identified as the angels of Satanail. They are imprisoned, eventually the imprisoned angels bow before Enoch addressing him as “a man of God.” The story seem similar to the War in Heaven between God and Satan.[17] The Lord asks the angel Vereviel to dictate to Enoch 360 books containing all that is knowable. Later, the Lord himself tells to Enoch the secrets of the creation up to the flood, which are unknown even to the angels. Enoch is finally sent back on the earth for thirty days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Enoch

Various aspects of Christianity have taken things from the grey area of the Apocrypha. That 'War in Heaven' reference is to Revelation 12; whether Revelation is intended as a description of what had already happened, of a prediction of what would happen in some future, or whether the author was in no fit state to tell the difference, is up to the reader. But that could be taken either as saying the Devil has already been cast out of heaven for rebelling; or that the Devil is still in heaven, and won't get cast out until the Apocalypse.

[Depaysement]

185. Other than falling from the grace of God?

Creating death.

[TreasonousBastard]

187. Tempted Jesus, I guess, but...

that was all part of the plan. Jesus, unlike Eve, couldn't be tempted.

But, that doesn't make Eve a worse person than Jesus-- she was created in perfect innocence and knowledge seemed like a great gift at the time. And it was. Jesus knew what was up and being given a king-o-the-world crown wasn't in the plan.

I can't speak for Judaism, which is where this all started, but Christianity has never been comfortable with a concept of duality-- good is meaningless without evil, and so they are coequal. Yin and Yang. Satan was an archangel who went bad, and never an equal to God, so Christian mythology can never fully accept Satan as an equal.

A duality was hinted at in Genesis, and to some extent in Milton, and shows up in some Christian writings, but just never got mainstream. An enormous mythology about the second creation, descent into hell, and other things derived from a couple of OT verses changed Satan from a mild antagonist to God (the protagonist) to the sworn enemy of God and all that is good.

Some bad horror movies haven't helped the situation. Nor did Dante.

The OT doesn't have name for hell, as far as I know, and Satan doesn't seem to have much to do in the OT, except for Job and a few other morality tales, so I'll wait for a rabbi to show up and explain more about that.

Myself, I go for the duality-- if there is a god, there must be a devil or there is stasis and no point to being God. Movement and change is the result of two opposing forces. Maybe more, but at least two.

[Heddi]

188. Obviously the Pickle Surprise

I mean, who else but Satan?

[Act_of_Reparation]

190. I think it is a mistake...

...to view Satan/Lucifer/the devil as a congruous figure.

He's a character that has developed over the course of at least 2,500 years; so much more modern descriptions of him are not especially similar to those recorded in the older books of the Bible.

In the Jewish tradition, "Satan"--the Adversary--isn't necessarily a devil or a demon consigned to Hell. He's more like a prosecuting attorney in the ongoing trial to determine mankind's worthiness of God's favor. In that context, it is isn't wholly surprising that, for a "bad guy", Satan is a pretty benign Old Testament figure. In Job--his most significant appearance--he simply issues a challenge, while God's the one getting his hands all bloody.

Lucifer, whole "War in Heaven" schtick, and his conflation with the Old Testament Satan are largely Christian inventions. So much of the "bad" shit the devil does hasn't happened so much as it is predicted to happen.

Given the New Testament's demonstrated predictive powers, we can safely assume it won't happen, either.

[Warren Stupidity]

191. Fine, still we have a mountain of outright evil attributed to Yahweh and

"participation in the slaughter of Job's family and the torture of Job with Yahweh" attributed to Lucifer. Really one has to conclude that Yahweh is the more evil of the two. Unless of course one wants to assert and defend the proposition that good is defined by what Yahweh does.

[okasha]

206. Jeffrey Burton Russell is a historian of ideas.

He has several books on the subject of personified evil.

The book responsible for the prevalent idea of Satan isn't the Bible at all. It's Dante's Inferno.

[Prophet 451]

196. Satan's worst sin is not obeying god

I actually worship Satan. I'm a Luciferian Satanist, which means I worship Lucifer as the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. Discounting Job (which I regard as propaganda for god), the worst Satan does is ask Jesus a few tricky questions and gift humanity with the capacity for moral self-determination. He guides us to eat the apple, giving us the knowledge of good and evil, the capacity to make our own decisions about morality, to go from "thou shalt not" to "I will not".

It is god who keeps the threat of hell hanging over us (although, as Lucifer's realm, it's not as bad as it's made out to be). It is god who wants to keep us wide-eyed pets. It is god who refuses to respect us as thinking, feeling beings who deserve regard just for that. It is god who demands we kiss his ass, spending every day worshiping him for not casting us into hell right this moment. It is god who treats humanity as a battered spouse.

[cbayer]

199. I am glad you weighed on this. I was hoping you would

It gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from.

I can't say that I fully get it, but I think I get a little of it.

[Prophet 451]

200. Glad to enlighten :)

[ZombieHorde]

198. Neither God nor Satan do anything evil in the Christian Holy Bible.

They do some stuff, and then people/angels/etc. interpret some those things as good, evil, etc.

[randr]

201. I would suggest he had a hand in the latest interpretations.

[BlueStreak]

204. Here are some sites that have been keeping score

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.374272-God-is-more-evil-than-Satan-the-Devil