Who Created The Devil?

[Cartoonist]

Last edited Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:28 PM - Edit history (1)

A while back I began a thread titled Who Created God?. It led to some interesting discussion but failed to get at the root of God's creation, the need to answer life's tough questions. So here's another of those tough questions. Was Satan created to explain the existence of evil in the world? This question gets tougher when people disagree over what is evil and what isn't, such as homosexuality, with the most religious of people coming down on the side of it being evil and the more secular claiming it is natural and benign.

As myth has it, at one time there was only God. It was Him who created Heaven and Earth and all life. Therefore, it was God who created the devil, and it was God from whom evil came. I dare any of the religious apologists here to claim that God had no idea of what creating the archangels would lead to. Will they say that God is a flawed individual who could not even read the tea leaves He created? Will they admit that God made an error when he made Lucifer?

I have often heard the apologists resort to the tired argument of "free will" and that people can choose between good and evil. But who made the choices available? If God created the devil and the existence of evil, shouldn't He be held responsible? Is there a Hell big enough to hold God?

[edhopper]

1. The weird thing about the "free will" argument

is how much talk there is about the Devil as tricking people into doing something. Offering something they need.
How is that free will?

Of course Satan seems to be the composite of many earlier gods, from tricksters to lords of the underworld. And evolved to explain whatever the Church needed a being like this to explain, including; why we burn witches.

The sad thing is how many people believe such a thing, including Pope Frank.

[Cartoonist]

2. Burning witches

Funny how the response to a perceived evil is to commit evil.

[edhopper]

3. But they thought they were doing God's will

so that can't be evil.
That is unless you say that religion doesn't motivate any actions.

[notadmblnd]

54. I want to why God can't do his own will

Why do people think they know what God wants and then take it upon themselves to perform in his stead?

[edhopper]

55. Cause then we would have proof God exists

and no need for faith, or something like that.
Either that or he is omnipotent but just lazy.
I get confused at this point.

[notadmblnd]

56. I guess it's all just one big test? God's sick joke to amuse himself

Knowing full well that mankind could never pass it. That's the twisted thing about it. If there is a god, then we are nothing more than his sick entertainment.

[Act_of_Reparation]

9. "He who fights monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster.

"And when you stare for long into the abyss, the abyss stares into you."

-Nietzsche

A cautionary anecdote anyone could live by, doubly so when the monsters in question are, you know... real.

[trotsky]

4. "including Pope Frank"

After we are told, again and again and again, that atheists who criticize such primitive and childish beliefs, such as the belief in a literal devil, are out of touch with how the majority view their religion. I did not know that Roman Catholicism was considered a fringe, minority faith.

[edhopper]

5. This all sounds rational

and very "21st Century"

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/10/30/pope-francis-devil-real-dont-underestimate/

[trotsky]

6. That's some Sophisticated Theology® indeed.

Truly representative of modern thought in religion, I would guess.

[Cartoonist]

13. Good luck with that!

Meanwhile, an Italian exorcist, the Rev. Aldo Buonaiuto, suggested that Halloween should be replaced by a celebration of Christian saints and renamed “Holyween.”
He said too many people wrongly believe Halloween is a “simple carnival”; instead, he said, it masks “a subterranean world” based on the occult.
“For followers of the occult, Oct. 31 is the satanic new year,” he told the Italian daily La Nazione. “It’s a time for attracting new converts. And it’s also a time when exorcists have to work more.”
-
Hire me! he says

[Lordquinton]

37. That was 4 months ago!

You can't dig up quote so old, he's surely changed his mind by now. Find something from tomorrow and maybe he won't have changed his mind by now.

[edhopper]

38. You are right

I haven't researched how many of the new Cardinals believe in Satan.

[underpants]

7. Looking forward to reading this discussion

[Iggo]

8. Nobody.

[DetlefK]

10. There was a "Is the devil evil?"-thread a while ago.

IIRC the devil of the Old Testament was more like a trickster-persona, a trouble-maker to deliver lines and to get the plot going.
(Satan is related to the arabic "shaitan" for evil spirit. The Sata-snake of egypt mythology had the attributes of rebirth and regeneration, which don't fit here.)
That's not that unusual: Judaism was polytheistic before the babylonian exile. Judaism was reformed afterwards and only the main god, Jehova, remained.

A real background-story for the devil is only Lucifer (the lightbringer, "lux"="light", the morning-star) in the New Testament. Lucifer is the bad guy because he disobeys God despite knowing full well that God should be obeyed.

The Anti-Christ is the "final boss" before the apocalypse. The term refers to one or several prophets who fight Christ's message.
The "number of the beast" 666 is what you get if you add up all the letters in the Antichrist's/beast's true name. (In hebrew, every letter also means a number.)
And to come back to "Satan": The Antichrist is sometimes also described as a dragon/snake.

[Promethean]

57. There is also the Zoroastrian

Ha-Satan (Hah Sah Tahn). The two words probably ended up being substituted for each other in conversation and eventually combined.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. The devil is a necessity...

without the duality of "good" and "evil" this would be a boring place. Just as light would be meaningless without dark, God is meaningless without a devil. I'll admit that putting value judgments on yin and yang certainly causes problems, but the whole Garden of Eden thing was a handy myth to explain how you have to have opposing forces to create change. Jews seem to have a better understanding of this than Christians.

Polytheistic religions say the same thing, but they have a range of gods to choose from and usually no such simple good and evil distinction.

[stone space]

12. As an atheist, I kinda' start with the notion that...

Last edited Sun Feb 22, 2015, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)

...Man created God in his own image.

The notion of man-made Gods might seem weird to some, but it is where I start.

I expect ancient religious texts to contain and document all of the hopes, the prejudices, the dreams, and the fears and nightmares of a people over time.

(Of course, any literary source documenting all of the hopes, prejudices, dreams, and fears of a people is destined to contain a multitude of contradictions, although I don't view myself as particularly clever for noticing that rather mundane and unremarkable fact of life, as some here do.)

Over time, Man has learned, through an interaction of science, technology, and religion, how to create artifacts that reflect many of the characteristics reputed to be possessed by various Gods.

Fundamental to my (admittedly, somewhat militant) atheism is the notion the Idols (or False Gods) that Man creates and invests through technology with powers of Omnipotence deserve our skepticism and attention, as they generally reflect the very worse aspects of religous imagination, and the artifacts we invest with Omnipotence tend to be forces for evil.

This is rather unsurprising from an atheist perspective, given our almost visceral skepticism and fear of the dangers of Omnipotence.

To not take the dangers of man made Gods seriously is to not take atheism seriously.

[Cartoonist]

14. ...Man created God in his own image.

Indeed. So does God have a penis? Since there is no mention of a Mrs. God, what does he use it for?

[stone space]

16. Some Gods are penis substitutes.

So does God have a penis?

Craig Hicks carried one of those particular Gods around with him, and relied on that God to do his dirty work for him.

Like magic. He invoked his God with a tiny twitch of the finger, and like magic his God struck 3 Muslims dead.

In Craig Hick's religion, one needs only to twitch ones finger and God's wrath comes down on people.

[trotsky]

19. Please take your anti-gun crusade to the appropriate DU group.

It is not on topic in the Religion group.

[stone space]

21. Why do find critcism of Gods bothersome?

I'm a militant atheist.

It's hardly surprising that I view Gods as a creation of Man, and that I have some criticism of some of those Gods.

Militant atheists have a right to post in the religion forum.

And we have a right to criticize Idolatry.

[trotsky]

22. I find your continued personal agenda against guns, carried out here in the Religion group,

to be bothersome.

It's off-topic. And even people who despise me say so.

[stone space]

23. You want to give man-made Gods a pass.

I understand that.

But again, you and I have very different atheist values.

[trotsky]

24. I see your vacation has taught you nothing.

Pity.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. hmmmm....

[edhopper]

26. You are either using the term "God" as a metaphor

in which it really isn't about religion. Or you think Hicks believed his gun was a sentient, powerful being with supernatural powers.
In which case I ask you to provide evidence that he believed so.

To incorporate other types of fanaticism under the umbrella of religion dilutes the debate and under minds criticism of religion.

[stone space]

28. It's no metaphor. It's reality. (nt)

[edhopper]

29. So you think

Hicks thought his guns were powerful, sentient beings with supernatural abilities?

What evidence do you have of this?

[stone space]

32. I think that Gods are a creation of man.

This so-called atheist's God is no exception to the rule.

[trotsky]

33. "A creation of man"? That's ridiculously sexist.

You and I clearly do not have the same atheist values. I value equality.

[edhopper]

36. How is his gun

in anyway a God.
Please describe the attributes of these guns that make them a God.
He might have been fanatical about guns, but that is far from making them gods.
If that were true Derick Jeter or Tom Brady would be considered a god.

You keep saying this but offer no rational explanation for your statement.

[stone space]

46. His gun was designed and engineered for Omnipotence.

And that's how he used it.

[edhopper]

51. No it wasn't and I doubt he

or any gun supporter says it was.
They say they are better off, or more secure with a gun, but that is a different argument. But omnipotent??

Your posts on this are just ridiculous and I can see you don't really have a rational reason to say this.
No need to reply since you have nothing to back this up.


And for the record I am in favor of strong gun regulation.

[Lordquinton]

39. Hicks was a militant atheist

He had no god, the fact that you are still the only one to claim he wasn't an atheist stands out like a sore thumb.

[stone space]

47. You keep wanting to slander militant atheists.

Why are you so angry at militant atheists?

Why does our existence disturb you so much.

[Lordquinton]

48. because militant atheists want to kill believers

And burn churches, that is not ok. Anyone calling themselves a militant atheist is in the same groupnas hicks and does not belong on this site.

[stone space]

49. I have never killed anybody, not do I want to.

because militant atheists want to kill believers

And burn churches, that is not ok. Anyone calling themselves a militant atheist is in the same groupnas hicks and does not belong on this site.

DU may not be the right place for you.

[Arugula Latte]

52. A lot of religious people consider "militant atheists" to be people who

***gasp*** put up "Good without God" BILLBOARDS and BUS SIGNS! The horror! People just aren't ready for such STRIDENT militancy! Their delicate sensibilities get rattled by such offense!

[Warpy]

58. 'Scuse me?

Where are you getting this horse shit?

Good grief.

[rogerashton]

15. Taking the question a little seriously

it depends ....

As all probably know, the Christian answer is that the Devil was an archangel who rebelled against God.

Zoroastrian dualism, however, held that the arch-fiend, Angra Mainyu, like Ahura Mazda, had existed for all time and was uncreated. Zoroastrianism had a great influence both on Judaism and Christianity. The word Devil, Dev-Il, is more or less the Persian word for demigod.

These traditions emerged at a time when everyone believed without question that there were powerful immaterial spirits who could do people harm or good, including djinn, daemons and dev-ils, and the only differences of opinion were over the hierarchy and how best to propitiate or protect against them. While there are a few fundies today who believe in demons and possession, I'm pretty sure most theists do not. Thus, God would be seen as unique in a way that no-one would have thought in 1000 AD or earlier. But then Satan, if he exists at all, must share that distinctive character with God. And that's dualism. But dualism is not Christianity (endless circle of negations follows).

[edhopper]

17. Actually

a majority of believers do believe in demons;
http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/31/scary-poll-shows-that-nearly-six-in-ten-of-voters-believe-in-demonic-possession/

and the devil:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426645/Majority-Americans-believe-devil--especially-Republicans-blacks-women.html

[trotsky]

20. "While there are a few fundies today who believe in demons and possession...

I'm pretty sure most theists do not."

The Roman Catholic Church (~1.2 billion members) officially teaches both that demons are real, and that they can possess people. (Additionally, they teach that exorcism is the method to get rid of them.)

[Cartoonist]

25. Good history

So the question now is, who came first, God or the devil?

[edhopper]

27. Biblically

or carnally?

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. However, 'devil' comes from the Greek diabolos - accuser, calumniator, slanderer, traducer

so any similarity to a Persian word for demigod is coincidence. 'Diabolos' was used in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament into Greek for the Hebrew word 'Satan'.

[Fumesucker]

18. God, the all knowing and all powerful creator created the Devil

It can't possibly be any other way.

God creates and the Devil is incapable of creation according to most Christian tradition, the Devil can only corrupt not create.

Who else creates intelligent beings besides God?

[TimeToEvolve]

30. if not for the devil, then what would God have to do other than twiddle his thumbs,

there would be nothing for the O.T. God to smite, forbid, etc and inflate his ego while doing so

[Hestia]

40. Which proves that god is fallible - if you read Hermetic Thought, the universe is created by The ALL

which is perfect and complete and can never be added to nor subtracted from. We can never ever know The ALL because we are mere humans with a low vibrational state. In fact, The ALL is not even concerned with us we are so far removed. Makes no difference in who or what we believe, The ALL exists and that's all we need to know. No rituals, no book, no diets, etc. because we are that far removed. We can go about our daily lives without a fear in the world because there is no god that will exact divine retribution.

The ALL's creations fight duality; which boils down to that the god everyone supposedly talks to and takes marching orders from is only a god of this earth and not the universe.

In order to prove he is a god, he had to create a nemesis but if there isn't one what is the point of an earth god? Actually, he is the god of thunder and rain "golden showers"

[arcane1]

31. Is the whole "Lucifer was a fallen angel who became Satan" even in the Bible?

I remember looking once, and I could swear "Lucifer" only appears in some translations and not others, and doesn't specify who/what Lucifer was,or what if anything he/she/it became.

Wasn't it something like "star of the morning"?

[Brettongarcia]

34. then Jesus calls himself the morning stat' '"

[arcane1]

35. There it is: Isaiah 14:12.

King James:

How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!


New American Standard:

"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!


An additional search for keywords "morning" and "star" gives us this, from King James, Revelation 22:16:


I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

New American Standard:

"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."


I think we can say without doubt that, according to the Bible, Jesus is Satan

[Hestia]

42. There you have it in black & white - "morning star" "son of the morning" it is Venus in her sunside

state; Diana is Venus in her nighttime state.

[Hestia]

41. Nope, Lucifer is a man-made construct through the catholic church which had to create a nemesis

because they had to have a duality. Shaitan is your inner demon that you fight with each and every day - i.e., addictions, compulsions, etc. "Know Thyself."

[arcane1]

43. Makes sense. Sounds like pro wrestling, but less realistic

[hrmjustin]

45. The GOP!

[AtheistCrusader]

50. In the abrahamic faiths, god manufactures all evil.

Satan, evil, etc. God made it all.

Isaiah 45 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And, god certainly (according to this tradition) made Lucifer, the fallen angel. So... yanno...



Later on, in the NT, there's a lot of nonsense about how god can't be the source of evil, but clearly the Abrahamic god created things that can do evil, and has given them license to go ahead and do so.

[Arugula Latte]

53. If the Dude is omnipotent, he has to "own" evil.

[okasha]

59. Dante, mostly.

[edhopper]

62. Really

I would say Milton.

In fact I would say Dante's Satan, frozen in his own circle doesn't resemble what most describe as the Devil.

[okasha]

63. You would be wrong.

The traditional iconography of hell and Satan preceded Milton by centuries. Milton's Satan is modeled on the figure of the flawed Greek hero, not on the few mentions in the Bible.

[edhopper]

64. You still want to stick with Dante's frozen Satan huh?

I thought since you point to him we were talking about the way people think about the Devil these days.
If you want to go to who created him you would have to go back millennium before Dante or Milton or the Bible.

[okasha]

68. I go with Dante

as the creator of the imagery and symbolism that attends the subsequent ideas of hell and the devil.All that was wellvestablished centuries
before Milton.

[Cartoonist]

67. So who is this guy?

Matthew 4:1-11New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

[MellowDem]

60. Compare their k/d ratio in the Bible...

God is in the millions, the Devil has around 11, and that's only cause God let him torture Job and kill his family as part of a bet.

Remember, Jesus wants you to let him into your heart. Why? Because of what he'll do to you if you don't.

[Cartoonist]

61. Just added for your enjoyment

https://archive.org/details/GloomBookNo.21922

Here is a funny little book I just found today on the Internet Archive. I haven't examined it all, but there is some good stuff here. Warning: Books from this period may contain racist content. I do not approve or endorse such material.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. Good recent discussion on this here:

The devil has been in twice as many movies as Jesus (and how that has changed our theology)

“The devil is a human dream, a dream of the human, and that’s what makes him frightening,” Matthew Cheney writes at Press Play in the introduction to a fun short video surveying portrayals of the devil in film.

It’s a terrific video and a fine little essay, but like most people Cheney gets this backwards. He writes as though the devil were a character from the Bible who was later portrayed in movies. That’s not true. The devil is a character from movies who was later projected into the Bible.

The Bible gives us little more than a name or a title. We supply the rest. We read that name or title and we bring to it a vast panoply of connotations and associations that the writers of the text could never have imagined. We see the word “Satan” and, for us, it means 10,000 things it did not and could not have meant to the biblical writers. Our understanding of that word comes from elsewhere — from movies, TV, novels, poetry, folk tales, folk songs, apocryphal pseudo-Gospels and ideas stolen or borrowed from other religions.

Cheney’s infernal montage captures a key aspect of this cultural creation of the devil in that he doesn’t just include high-brow arty films made with lofty literary ambition. He also includes things like Little Nicky, Bedazzled, the South Park movie, and Vincent Price camping it up in The Story of Mankind.
...
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2015/02/19/the-devil-has-been-in-twice-as-many-movies-as-jesus-and-how-that-has-changed-our-theology/

and that links to a blog entry with more detail:

Princes of Darkness: The Devil’s Many Faces in Scripture and Tradition

The word and concept ‘demon’ underwent fundamental change in antiquity caused by the rise of dualism in the essentially monistic cultures of the Near East. These monistic cultures viewed the universe as a unified system in which each member, divine and human, had its proper domain and function above, upon, or below the earth. There was (as yet) no arch-enemy Devil, nor a rival camp of Satanic demons tempting and deceiving humans into sin and blasphemy, eventually to be cast into eternal hell at the final end of the present age. Humans also had their function in this diverse but unified system: to serve the gods and obey their dictates, their Law, for which they received their rewards while alive. After death all humans descended into the underworld from which there was no return; there was no Last Judgment, and no hope of resurrection.

A character known as the “satan” (a word meaning adversary or accuser in Hebrew) makes just three appearances in the Old Testament: in Job, Zechariah, and 1 Chronicles — all dating to the post-exilic Persian period or later. The most important thing to realize about this character is that he is not portrayed as an opponent of God in these passages. Just as biblical imagery of Yahweh, his throne room, and his council of advisors is derived from analogy with earthly kings, the office of the accuser (a sort of spymaster and public prosecutor) was apparently found in the administrations of Babylon and Persian empires (see Meyers, p. 184).
...
One of the earliest and most influential Jewish apocalypses was 1 Enoch, which itself was a compilation of five separate works. The oldest section, the Book of the Watchers, combines elements from Genesis 6 and Greek mythology to tell a Promethean story in which the Watchers (some kind of angel-like being also mentioned in Daniel) descend to earth to take wives and impart illicit knowledge to mankind — sorcery, herbology, weapon-making, jewelry, and cosmetics. Their liaisons with human women beget Giants — an evil race with physical bodies and immortal souls. God sends a great flood to kill them all, but their souls survive and haunt the earth as evil spirits. The Watchers themselves are imprisoned under the earth to await judgment.
...
The national religion of the Persians was Zoroastrianism, which had a very different cultural and geographical background from the dominant religions of Palestine and Mesopotamia. It introduced such concepts as monotheism, a God of pure goodness (Ahura Mazda, meaning “wise lord”), a supreme “destructive spirit” named Ahriman that opposed God, hierarchies of good and evil angels (the latter called daevas), and the idea of an eschatological battle with a final judgment and resurrection in paradise (itself a Persian word). These doctrines, nearly absent from the canonical Old Testament, begin to find their way into Jewish and Christian writings during the Hellenistic and Roman periods — particularly in the apocalyptic genre.

https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/princes-of-darkness-the-devils-many-faces-in-scripture-and-tradition/