Deadly Fire in Brooklyn Renews Concerns Over a Weekly Ritual

[Warren Stupidity]

In the hours after a malfunctioning hot plate started a fast-moving blaze that killed seven brothers and sisters in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Brooklyn on Saturday, a Fire Department official went door to door at nearby homes handing out pamphlets titled “Fire Safety for Jewish Observances.”

“Stay in the kitchen — don’t leave cooking food unattended,” warned the first item on the list of precautions.

For observant Jews, that admonition is hard to reconcile with the religious tenets that govern how they are to behave on the Sabbath, the weekly day of rest. From sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday, those who observe the Sabbath do not work, write, use electricity — or cook. If they want a hot meal during that time, they must prepare their food — often a popular stew called cholent — ahead of time and leave it warming overnight.

Brooklyn Fire Kills 7 Children, City’s Worst Toll Since 2007MARCH 21, 2015
While the household sleeps, the Saturday meal is kept warm either on an electric hot plate or atop what is known in Yiddish as a blech, a metal plate that sits on a gas burner set to low. Fire Department officials said the fatal fire in Midwood, Brooklyn, in an observant Jewish household, had started with a malfunctioning hot plate sitting on a first-floor kitchen counter

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/nyregion/deadly-fire-underscores-a-potential-conflict-between-religion-and-public-safety.html?_r=0

[Fred Sanders]

1. No electricity on the Jewish Sabbath? Another example of the silliness of religion, and it's danger.

You learn something new about each religions cult minorities every day. I hope this is a cult Minority.

How many Jews in America are actually "observant Jews" that observe this nonsense?

Good thing they were not Muslims, the media would be all over it with outrage....not so much if not.

[Lucky Luciano]

3. They can use electricity during the sabbath, but they cannot

...turn it on or off during the sabbath. It is all pretty crazy really.

A day of rest is nice that you can spend with your family, but the lengths that tge very observant go to not break the "rules" is nuts.

When I was in college, my dorm neighbor roomed with an observant guy. On Saturday, tge observant guy would go to what is known as the chabad house - some on campus Jewish place that was like a temple of sorts. They forgot to leave the lights on from the previous day. The observant guy was one of the few that knew a gentile - his roommate! So, he went back to his room and asked his roommate to come with him to the Chabad house - a very strange request for a Korean guy! They couldn't say that they needed him to turn on the lights as tgat would be against the rules. So, my friend, the Korean guy went to chabad and upon entering the house, he saw darkness and he instinctively wanted to turn on the lights. Everyone there was looking at the light switch - so he turned on the lights and the day was saved! I guess they didn't have candles.

Pretty silly...

[Fred Sanders]

4. Did not know that. That is even crazier. You can turn it on and use it...but not touch it? A cult.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. careful Fred, you are mocking deeply held religious convictions.

A behavior you have denounced in other circumstances.

[Fred Sanders]

12. Unreferenced ad hominem? Sure, everyone should be "careful" around certain topics.

[atreides1]

32. At least they have....

...a deeply held religious belief that they actually practice...unlike the hacks at Hobby Lobby, who were only concerned with their wallets and used religion to keep it filled!!!

[starroute]

18. They couldn't have lit candles, either

That's what makes the whole thing so crazy. The original injunction was against lighting a fire on the Sabbath because it required work -- so they extend that to flipping a light switch. You'd think if they were going to try to adapt 3000 year old injunctions to present-day technology, they'd do it in a way that was relatively sane rather than maximally crazy. But apparently they have to prove their piety by tying themselves into knots.

And if that's not crazy enough, there's also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv

An eruv ([ʔeˈʁuv]; Hebrew: עירוב‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin [ʔeʁuˈvin]) is a ritual enclosure that some communities construct in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur. An eruv accomplishes this by integrating a number of private and public properties into one larger private domain, thereby countermanding restrictions on carrying objects from the private to the public domain on Sabbath and holidays.

The eruv allows these religious Jews to, among other things, carry house keys, tissues, medicines, or babies with them, and use strollers and canes.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/06/us/06religion.html

What Mrs. Smolen experienced has been shared by a religious niche in the Northeast during this epically snowy season. From Washington to New York State, a series of “snowmageddons” have wreaked a particular form of havoc for Orthodox Jews.

The storms have knocked down portions of the ritual boundary known as an eruv in Jewish communities in Silver Spring, Md., Center City Philadelphia, the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Monsey in suburban New York, and Teaneck and Passaic in New Jersey.

Almost literally invisible even to observant Jews, the wire or string of an eruv, connected from pole to pole, allows the outdoors to be considered an extension of the home. Which means, under Judaic law, that one can carry things on the Sabbath, an act that is otherwise forbidden outside the house.

Prayer shawls, prayer books, bottles of wine, platters of food and, perhaps most important, strollers with children in them — Orthodox Jews can haul or tote such items within the eruv. When a section of an eruv is knocked down by, let’s say, a big snowstorm, then the alerts go out by Internet and robocall, and human behavior changes dramatically. ... At least two circumcision ceremonies in metropolitan New York were conducted at home instead of synagogue since the guest of honor could not be carried to shul.

[Dems to Win]

80. I would strenuously object to an eruv in my community, if it included my home

My home, my property, is NOT a part of their private domain. I'm not a part of their imaginary community.

If they want to live by rules written a few thousand years ago by some desert scribes, that's fine, I respect their right to do so. But I have no reason at all to cooperate in any way, nor do I care whether they think they have to follow rules from list A or list B -- not my problem.

I would not want to be included in their game of 'Let's Pretend' in any way, shape, or form.

[SheilaT]

76. I keep on thinking that if no gentile would

help them out in these circumstances, maybe eventually they'd understand how totally stupid their rules are. But religious beliefs like this are so irrational and so strong that there is no hope they'd come to any rational change in their behavior.

I think that maybe if these people get sick on their Sabbath, no doctor should treat them, and so on. I know that's harsh, but that they refuse anything that they consider work on that day, they should live with the logical consequences of the "What if everyone behaved that way?" meme.

[Arugula Latte]

30. Fred, Fred, Fred.

If they use electricity, the invisible deity that hovers over planet Earth will be displeased. Obviously.

Also, the deity "wants you to dress like you live in Prague in 1835, even when it's summer in New York, or the Israeli Negev." ~ edhopper

[edhopper]

59. a credited quote!

I'm blushing.

[Arugula Latte]

66. I'm still chuckling at that one...

[Duckhunter935]

2. so sad and what a waste

they were still using electricity, so they were apparently already breaking the religious tenet. So they should just cook or go out to eat warm food. I am glad I do not have to do that religious stuff.

No smoke detectors either, that is also a very big part of this story.

[Unvanguard]

5. No, they were not breaking the religious tenet

You can use electricity as long as it's passive, as long as it was turned on prior to the Sabbath.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. exactly, their gods demanded that they put their children in peril.

And being obedient to their deities, that is exactly what they did. In any other context this would be considered delusional behavior.

[demwing]

8. "their gods demanded that they put their children in peril"

If you have to lie to make your points, are your points any better than those of the religions you reject?

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I reject all religions. I am particularly disdainful of those religions that coerce people

into truly stupid behavior, such as using notoriously unsafe hot plates instead of just using their stoves. As my points do not attempt to coerce people into doing anything, and certainly not anything massively stupid and potentially deadly, yes I think the points I make are better than the religions I reject. But what do you think? Is mocking religion just as harmful as demanding that people not use their stoves on the sabbath?

[Unvanguard]

13. Mocking religion is pretty unlikely to get Orthodox Jews to change their views.

In fact, it's most likely to do the opposite, to convince them that you have no respect for the things they hold dearly important, and therefore incline them to ignore your advice.

This kind of tragedy calls for a public health solution, not for moralistic self-righteous grandstanding.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. ok, but previously you claimed my rejection of religion was just as bad as the religions I reject

now your new tune is "but its ineffective".

Do you have evidence that mocking religion is less effective at convincing people that religion is bullshit than pretending that its edicts aren't idiocy?

I remember a fable about a boy and a naked emperor. That boy was a hero.

[okasha]

20. Nope.

The poster objected to your lying to make points, not to your rejection of religion.

And how does someone who claims to come from a Jewish family commit a howler like 'their gods" I'm regard to Orthodox Jews?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Do keep up.

" Mocking religion is pretty unlikely to get Orthodox Jews to change their views."

First I was lying, then I was mocking.

By the way I use "gods" pretty consistently with respect to all religious beliefs. It is a form of mocking that attacks the way that monotheists think their religion is somehow superior to other non-monotheistic religions. Besides, poke any of the abrahamic religions and there seem to be more than one entity described, their monotheism is sort of squishy.

My family has jewish cultural, not religious roots, but thanks for obsessing about me anyway.

[okasha]

22. The problem with lying, Warren,

then trying to deflect with another misrepresentation to cover your ass, is that people remember what you say, especially if there's only a few minutes between the two.

Then you wind up with people mocking you.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. Well you are the expert.

[okasha]

25. Well, someone has to point out your absurdaties.

I'm just filling in for rug while he's on Lenten hiatus. Reading your posts is my penance.

[hrmjustin]

27. .

[Unvanguard]

24. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

I don't think I've made any comparison or any statement of moral equivalence.

And I think you're missing my point. I am more concerned with preventing deaths than with convincing these Orthodox Jews that their religion is bullshit. So, since I don't think anyone will manage to convince them that their religion is bullshit, I would rather convince them to make manageable changes in how they cope with Sabbath laws that will make future tragedies less likely.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Oh good point, sorry about that.

But the same question applies: do you have any evidence that mocking is either better or worse than other approaches? My experience with fundamentalists of any sort is that you almost certainly cannot reason with them about anything having to do with their religious beliefs. Mocking has at least a chance to get through the standard defensive barriers. However I freely admit that it is likely useless as well.

[elleng]

52. Thank you.

I hadn't read about the details, and now am extremely sad. I appreciate those trying to help them make manageable changes. If only it works.

[AtheistCrusader]

88. Orthodox Jews have put themselves out of step with society on a number of issues.

Issues like, treating women as actual human beings.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/orthodox-jewish-men-flight-delay_n_6391104.html

[Unvanguard]

104. I don't think mocking their religious beliefs would work in that case either.

So I'm not sure what point you're making.

[edhopper]

60. Why is that a lie?

Do you think their deity doesn't know about the risks associated with the behaviors it demands?

[Duckhunter935]

9. I guess that is one way to get around

The tenent. Just makes no sense to me. If they want to be that religious, they should just have some kind of pre-prepared food that does not require heating. I am sorry, I just think in the name of religion, children died. I find that truly sad.

[Nay]

11. I wonder why they didn't just use a (very safe) crockpot if they weren't supposed to

turn an appliance off?

Or eat sandwiches or something that can be eaten cold?

[AtheistCrusader]

19. One could use the damn stove the same way. much safer.

[hrmjustin]

15. I heard the fire engines rushing to the scene when it happened.

They were rushing engines from my part of Brooklyn to Bedford Ave.

[NYC_SKP]

33. First, this story is about five dead children. And you see an opportunity to mock a great DU member

This kind of behavior is beneath contempt, it doesn't even rise to the level of immature, and I think it's a sign of one's inability to function socially.

Maybe you should just self-delete and go out and do something useful with yourself.

[Nye Bevan]

35. It was a pleasure to vote to hide that person's very nasty comment.

The vote was 6-1.

[NYC_SKP]

37. Thank you, I saw the results and was glad it went the way it did.

That was just plain mean.

[hrmjustin]

39. Not my alert but thank you.

[okasha]

45. Tkank you.

That post was as stupid as.it was cruel.

[840high]

51. Excellent vote.

[hrmjustin]

38. Thank you NYC SKP!

I took him off ignore but decided I will not engage him when he responds like that Because I only get angry and he gets a laugh out of it.

[elleng]

53. Oh golly.

[kath]

17. gawd really rewarded this family for being so devout, eh?

A kind and loving deity.

Those poor, poor babies...

[Arugula Latte]

31. Don't worry -- dead babies are all part of His Grand Plan!

I eagerly await finding out what the Grand Plan is, much as I anticipated seeing Gerald Rivera unveil the treasures of Al Capone's vault!

[Renew Deal]

28. I saw this story last night on the local news

It is breathtakingly sad. The mother and a 14 year old jumped out of windows to escape. The neighbors could hear the other kids screaming. It's an unimaginable horror. It's the second deadliest fire after 9/11. The deadliest was 9 kids dying in the Bronx a few years ago.

[LiberalAndProud]

29. Is there a reason for this particular aspect of the sabbath?

Surely there is a difference between chopping firewood for fuel and turning on or off a switch. From a secular perspective, this traditional observance has maybe survived beyond its time.

[Igel]

40. The issue is one of obedience versus one of utilitarianism.

And it's a long-running one in Sabbath-keeping communities.

The original injunction was against lighting a fire on the Sabbath. This required collecting wood, etc. In one place a man is observed collecting wood on the Sabbath and the command from God is to execute him for violating the Sabbath.

The rest is commentary. I've seen it argued that the command was for work-related fires (since many profsesions require a fire); however, food preparation on the Sabbath is independently ruled out. Food preparation also wasn't a trivial process, since kneading the dough is a pain (and typically requires a fire, to boot).

I've seen it argued that the man collecting wood was doing so not for personal use but in order to sell it.

I've seen it argued that heating up food on the Sabbath these days is so trivially easy that turning on the stove isn't really work. Or in the same league as food preparation 4000 years ago. (Or 2600 years ago, if you like that date.)

That kind of argument can be extended easily. If Saturday is inconvenient, heck, move the Sabbath to Tuesday. The goal is a day of rest per week, and the utility is in rest and recuperation from labor.

But I've also seen it argued that the entire Sabbath commandment is a kind of ritual test. The goal wasn't just rest, but rest from menial work, from work that showed you were somehow submissive to others or to anything/anyone other than God. If it's a kind of ritual test, then the entire utilitarian argument falls flat because the utility isn't in rest or in not lighting fires but in how zealous you are in obeying. If it's a ritual test, then the day of the week is crucial, because that was the commandment--not "take off a day each week" but take off the 7th day. The thing is, there is no secular perspective here. One could argue that any real utility in the commandment has little to do with making a fire and has to do in a forced day off from work.

[NYC_SKP]

34. I am ashamed for the people who post replies mocking the beliefs of these victims. SMH.

Non-religious folks also use electric devices set on low for hours at a time.

Had this been a stew in a faulty crockpot at some crackhead's apartment, we'd all be sending good vibes and blaming the landlord.

Not that crackheads make stew. They practically don't eat at all.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Their beliefs are stupid and their practice of those beliefs was criminal.

The mocking is entirely deserved. Pointing out that there are other idiots in the world changes nothing.

[NYC_SKP]

48. Calling people stupid is really an indicator of a cognitive disability.

I see this a lot and have become someone sympathetic towards sufferers.

I hope that people don't blame their creator for creating them with disabilities.

Some social and cognitive disabilities are learned, others are conditioned out of abusive environments, but in no event should people who call other people stupid be treated with disdain.

I just hope that they get better.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. People who do incredibly stupid things are stupid people.

Being unable to see that because "religion" is idiotic. No functional smoke detectors. A wood house full of children. Hot plate(s) left on for days. Stupid is as stupid does.

[Fumesucker]

65. Why shouldn't people blame their creator for creating them with disabilities?

Doing away with the idea of a creator gets rid of this problem which Epicurus pointed out about 2300 years ago.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

[pinto]

36. This tragedy hardly seems the appropriate setting for snark or mocking comments about the Orthodox.

Plenty of room and time to comment on Orthodox Judaism. But using this event as a venue is pretty tacky, imo.

I think the NYFD is addressing the issue as a public health and safety hazard. And spreading the word about the very real dangers of unattended fire hazards and the value of smoke alarms in general. That's an appropriate response, imo.

[NYC_SKP]

41. Agree on all counts. Their faith was the furthest thing from my mind.

Having lived in tenements in the Lower East Side I've seen a lot of appliances like hotplates and crock pots in use but no fires, fortunately.

This is a matter for education and for providing strategies for prevention, and appliances need to have fail safe designs.

These victims might just as well have been students or poor working immigrants of any faith or no faith at all.

Taking the story as an opportunity to poop on religion is really pretty low.

Prayers for the victims and hoping that some good comes of this.

[Fred Sanders]

44. No convoluted "faith", no fire, no fire, no horrific tragedy. The issue is the line between child safety

and faith. That line needs to be reassessed.

An emergency public inquest is in order, given the disruption caused by the snowstorms.

[NYC_SKP]

46. No. A faulty electrical appliance knows no religion.

According to the article, the tragedy was caused by:

"a malfunctioning hot plate sitting on a first-floor kitchen counter"...

Malfunctioning, that's not good.

Given the fact that hot plates might go unattended for dozens of reason unrelated to the practice of religion, I'd say we need to look at these appliances as well as hope that those who use them in observance of tradition (and other users) are taught about the dangers and encouraged to take precautions or find alternative ways to observe.

I would also hope that temple leaders address this as an important topic to their community and find solutions.

But in no event is it "OK" to mock them because they happen to believe.

I know you know that mocking is just mean and childish and low.

[skepticscott]

49. So you'd agree that anyone

who would call creationists "a bunch of dumbasses" or deliberately mock the religious beliefs and practices of Mormons is being mean and childish and low?

[NYC_SKP]

50. Context is everything.

If seen the term used between friends, in a tongue in cheek fashion, and in disputes with which I had nothing to do.

My observation, the one that is peculiar to me, is how a handful of people seem to relish in the mocking part, as if it's funny or harmless.

Or maybe it's not meant to be harmless.

Yeah, maybe that's the problem.

[skepticscott]

56. Ah, so now "context" is your dodge

When just above "in no event" was it ok to mock people because they believe, according to you. Surprised you didn't get whiplash there, dude.

[NYC_SKP]

58. Out of the blue an interloper replies to a post hoping to create an "event" and then...

...claim some sort of argumentative "win".

WTF? Do you do this for amusement or is your life really that empty that you have to invent distractions for yourself.

I've got a book or two I can recommend if you have the time and interest in reading it, if you really want to feel better and productive.

[Act_of_Reparation]

62. A public forum is a strange place to expect a private conversation, don't you think?

[skepticscott]

63. In other words, you got caught directly contradicting yourself

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:08 PM - Edit history (1)

and are now trying to distract from that awkward and glaringly obvious fact, after having yourself jumped into this thread "out of the blue" (which everyone does on their first post in a thread, dude...chill and read your own book).

[NYC_SKP]

64. ROFL: I got caught directely contradicting yourself? WTF?

.

63. In other words, you got caught directly contradicting myself

View profile
and are now trying to distract from that awkward and glaringly obvious fact, after having yourself jumped into this thread "out of the blue" (which everyone does on their first post in a thread, dude...chill and read your own book).

What fail!

You came up with some obscure quote about dumbasses having little to do with this sad story and seek to dominate some non-argument that exists only in your mind.

A grip, get one.

[skepticscott]

68. Just enjoying myself exposing hypocrisy and preachiness

that habitually applies a double standard. Common traits among the religionists here. Tribalism does manifest itself, as you've been so adept at demonstrating.

[Act_of_Reparation]

90. Double standards abound with this one.

Three months ago, Charlie Hebdo should have known that their criticisms of religion would result in violence.

Today, you can't blame a person for ignoring the warning labels on their electrical appliances.

Cuz lots of people do it. And stuff.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. "It is 'OK' to mock them because they happen to believe"

Nope.

It is OK to mock them because while they are clapping themselves on the back for following TEH LAW to the letter, they are busy building elaborate Rube Goldberg-like schemes to avoid actually following the law.

Just like it is OK to mock you for blaming the hot plate manufacturer for not designing a 100% reliable piece of equipment.

Which reminds me:

[AtheistCrusader]

113. They arent meant to be left unattended at all.

Who even does that?

[840high]

54. ....x10

[trotsky]

57. These children are dead because of a stupid religious belief.

And I'm not going to back away from calling it a stupid religious belief. As if the creator of the universe gives lick whether you turn on an electric cooktop on a certain day of the week.

[Warren Stupidity]

71. snark, outrage, mocking , derision: all entirely appropriate. nt.

[hrmjustin]

42. The coverage on the news is just so sad.

Horrific!

They are being buried in Israel.

[Warpy]

43. Laws governing Sabbath can get very weird

I remember reading a protracted discussion many years ago about whether or not a woman who had parked a needle on her dress and forgotten about it was violating the Sabbath by carrying it around with her.

This is what happens when religious patriarchs govern human behavior.

You can't carry a needle around, that's working, but you can wrestle children into and out of bed, change their diapers, feed them, and do all the other donkey work of motherhood. Just make sure all the needles are in their packet before the sun sets on Friday.

This is just plain tragic and it will happen again. There are stoves with Sabbath timers that turn on automatically to heat food put into the oven the day before. They're pricey and I doubt many people with 7 children can afford them.

[Humanist_Activist]

67. While this is a horrible tragedy, it was brought on by negligence, the surviving adult...

should be prosecuted for negligent homicide.

If this was done for no religious reason, i.e. someone just left the hot plate on on purpose, for whatever reason, there would be a prosecution, there shouldn't be an exception done in this case.

[okasha]

69. Jesus Baldheaded Christ.

What do you think the state could do to that woman that's any worse than what she's suffering now?

[Warren Stupidity]

70. Generally what is done in cases of criminal negligent mansaughter in New York.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article125.htm#p125.10

I note it doesn't say "unless the perpetrator is already suffering enough", or "except when religiously motivated".

Oh and that would generally be a maximum of four years per charge.

(e) For a class E felony, the term shall be fixed by the court, and
shall not exceed four years.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article70.htm

Again, sentencing does not have an exception for "religious motivation" or "suffered enough".

[Humanist_Activist]

72. Honestly, it doesn't matter, do we want there to be a two-tiered justice system based on faith?

One for those who do things for religious reasons, and another for those who don't?

She was an adult who was criminally negligent, whether it was due to religious beliefs or not is irrelevant, it lead to the deaths of 7 children.

[okasha]

105. Here's how that works.

Charges aren't brought against anyone unless a District Attorney believes s/he can obtain an indictment and subsequent conviction. Both processes involve the selection of a jury. I can promise you without reservation that any antisemitic person, or any person otherwise prejudiced against a prospective defendant because of the defendant's religion or religious practices, will be challenged for cause and stricken from the jury pool. Given that prospective jurors are likely to be people of normal affect and empathy, they are far more likely to blame the manufacturer of a defective appliance than a person who used it in the reasonable expectation that it would function appropriately.

I also believe they would see this event as a self-punishing crime, if they could be persuaded that there's any crime at all. There's less than a snowball's chance in the Sahara of a prosecution of the mother in this case.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Same thing the state does to gun owners when charging them with criminal negligence

when their kid blows their own head, or the head of a sibling off.

Usually to the same cries of 'oh my he/she's already suffering!' protest from certain elements.

[skepticscott]

94. So by your thinking, all a parent has to do is "suffer"

or even pretend to suffer because they negligently caused the death of their child, and they should be let off scot-free to cause the death of more of their children.

Nice. Remind me never to live in your world.

[LiberalAndProud]

73. I disagree. A hotplate should be considered less hazardous than a space heater.

Have there been prosecutions of negligence from having left appliances on overnight not religiously connected? I'm not aware of any.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. accidental vs intentional would be the crux of the matter.

This hotplate thing was entirely intentional. Leaving a space heater on by accident, rather than intent, is negligent but not criminally negligent.

[LiberalAndProud]

75. Every account I have read says it was a malfunctioning hotplate.

Some people intentionally leave space heaters on overnight for nonreligious reasons. Even I have been known to leave my countertop cooker simmering overnight for that oh-so-succulent stew. If an appliance malfunctions during a religious observance, the religious observance shouldn't by itself ascribe culpability.

[Warren Stupidity]

81. it was left on for extended periods of time, unattended, intentionally. nt.

[LiberalAndProud]

83. So are Christmas lights.

And candles are left unattended, and incense used carelessly. I'll concede the point if you can find an instance of criminal prosecution for the careless use of appliances. I honestly am not aware of one.

[Humanist_Activist]

86. Christmas lights don't cook food, and only a severe malfunction, such as a short, can trigger a...

fire, there's a really good episode of Mythbusters about this, the heat from Christmas lights just isn't high enough to ignite even the driest of Christmas Trees on its own.

Here's an example with unattended children and candles:

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/general-news/20111113/jurors-to-decide-on-fairfield-mother-charged-with-murder

[AtheistCrusader]

87. Post 85. She was arrested as soon as she was released from Harborview.

She was also burned.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. Must have been a dogmatic fundamentalist atheist anti theist DA.

[okasha]

106. You might want to clarify that this is a different caze.

[trotsky]

77. Not necessarily.

A hotplate is definitely an electrical appliance not meant to be left unattended. Its surface gets much hotter than a space heater's, too.

[LiberalAndProud]

79. The good news is that some of them are getting tossed.

Some members of the Jewish community in central Ohio are tossing old appliances after seven Orthodox Jewish children died in a Brooklyn, N.Y., fire caused by a malfunctioning electric hot plate used to keep food warm during the Sabbath.

Elliot Fineberg, who attends Congregation Ahavas Sholom in Bexley, said people have told him they discarded hot plates described as being “held together with duct tape.”

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/03/23/orthodox-jews-toss-old-hotplates-after-fatal-fire.html

This is just ...

... common sense.

(mutter mutter)

[Humanist_Activist]

82. Anything that can get hot enough to cook food quickly is a potential ignition source, and leaving...

such appliances on unattended is a risk no one should make. In addition, newer space heaters do have safety devices of sorts that can turn them off in specific circumstances, hot plates, I don't think, have such mechanisms.

[Travis_0004]

101. I leave crockpots on all the time when i am at work.

[Humanist_Activist]

102. Crockpots are low heat, I think even a hot plate on its lowest setting is still a lot hotter than...

a crockpot.

[AtheistCrusader]

85. Yep.

THURSTON COUNTY, Wash. —
A mother told investigators she tried to get to her 18-month-old son, William, as fire spread through their home, but she couldn't reach him in time to save his life.

The boy died as fire raced through the small home near Steamboat Island in Thurston county.

Investigators arrested Ashley Conroy, 22. She will face second-degree manslaughter because of negligence that led to the boy’s death. “All I heard was my grandson’s mom screaming, my baby! My Baby!” said the boy’s grandmother, Zindy Carter.

When firefighters reached the boy he was dead.

“He was a beautiful little boy,” said family friend Olivia Richard. “He had some really bright blue eyes, blonde hair. He was just adorable.”

Thurston County sheriff's investigators said Conroy used a hotplate to warm the home where her son was sleeping, then left him alone and went next door to the home where his grandparents live.

I see no difference between going next door, as in the Thurston Co. case, and this case of going to sleep. Still negligence.

[LiberalAndProud]

89. Really. Leaving an 18-month-old home alone is the same thing as sleeping with an appliance on.

According to court documents, William’s room was “extremely dirty, with clothing, garbage, and vehicle parts stacked on the floor” near the grill. Investigators believe William was crawling around and got tangled in the grill cord. His body was found under a desk.

It is a far stretch to see these two tragic events as somewhat equivalent; a greater stretch than I'm willing to make.

[AtheistCrusader]

91. The parents put themselves in a postion unable to intervene.

Both cases.

Thurston Co. mom 'only went next door' to the grandparent's house.

See how I can diminish it? Make it sound more reasonable? After all, she could see the house from there. No? I feel the same way about a parent that leaves a device like that on, unattended, with no working smoke detectors in the house. Nobody knew there was a fire until the only exit from that room was engulfed. They didn't even have a fire escape/ladder.

The only smoke detector they had, was in the basement, and it never even tripped.


That's multiply-redundant levels of negligence to me.

[LiberalAndProud]

93. Although I don't agree with your assessment of criminality, you've argued your case well.

I have found other articles where parents have been prosecuted for leaving unattended children who subsequently died in fire. Other accidents have been considered just that, as far as I can tell.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/12/space-heaters-winter-fire-deaths/5414447/

[AtheistCrusader]

95. Idle speculation but I wonder...

If 'work' counts as verboten for the Sabbath, and the act of flipping a switch is considered work (hence the workaround), I wonder if other switched components, such as a thermostat, or even a smoke detector, might otherwise be prohibited in their view.

A smoke detector 'activates' in response to stimuli. Much like a stove, when you turn the knob.
I hope their faith is not so dogmatic as that...

I would buy my neighbor smoke detectors out of my own pocket if I thought they simply didn't have one. I don't care what faith they are. Human life is human life, to me.

[LiberalAndProud]

99. I'm certainly no expert in things Jewish, but I doubt that fire detectors are prohibited.

I really think that the culprit here is the all-too-human perspective that "it can't happen to me," until it happens. I suppose that a god belief might reinforce that misjudgment, but I think we are all guilty of this kind of thinking to some degree.

[Warren Stupidity]

108. The orthodox community is also notorious for rejecting government regulations in general.

So the lack of compliant smoke detectors, while not ordained by divine revelation, may not have been simple negligence either.

[LiberalAndProud]

109. After I suffered a small loss from fire, I stocked up on fire extinguishers because

I realized what could have happened. This tragedy seems to have served as a similar wake up call to the Orthodox community.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new-york/fire-safety-buying-spree-midwood-after-fire-tragedy

[okasha]

107. Preserving human life on the Sabbath is

a specifically mandated duty.

[AtheistCrusader]

110. Most unfortunate result in this case.

[okasha]

111. Eh?

It has nothing to do with food, unless someone is literally starving. It means that an Orthodox doctor can treat a critical patient on the Sabbath. An Orthodox police officer can pursue and arrest a violent perpetrator. Orthodox firefighters can answer an alarm. Etc..

[AtheistCrusader]

112. I mean specifically from a life safety perspective.

You say it is mandated, but they had no smoke detectors (just a basement one that was irrelevant to the outcome). Order of priority was unfortunately not correct. This could have easily been a local story about property damage, rather than a national story about multiple deaths of children for dubious circumstance. Is very sad.

This summer, I have budgeted in the house maintenance schedule to replace mine with networked fire alarms, so if one goes off, they all do. Combo ionizing and photoelectric, plus CO. Its cheap when one considers the alternative. One cannot un-dead someone for the price of a smoke alarm.

[SheilaT]

78. The truly sad thing is that this could happen

every single Saturday -- Orthodox Jews dying from fires caused because of their stupid and utterly nonsensical belief that flipping a switch to turn on an oven or a light or, god forbid, pressing an elevator button, is work and absolutely forbidden for 24 hours -- this could happen every single Saturday and I doubt the leaders of the sect would even consider the possibility of altering the rule into something sensible.

Malfunctioning hotplate is only a trivial aspect of what happened. Leaving something like that turned on for a very long time can't possibly be good for it.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. I'm curious to learn what the 'malfunction' was, too.

Exactly how? Over-heat? Too close to something? Short? Food boiled over, and caused a short?

Willing to bet no hot plate made after 1984 (thermal regulator circuits mandated) says anything other than 'NOT FOR UNATTENDED USE' anywhere on it.

[Fumesucker]

97. Eh, I have a hot plate that doesn't even get hot

You can boil a kettle of water on it, take the kettle off and put your hand right on top of of the hot plate and it might be uncomfortably warm but that's it. Put a paper towel on it and then fry bacon in a pan on top of the paper and the paper won't get scorched.

http://www.amazon.com/Aroma-AID-506-Induction-Plate-Black/dp/B0044WWBGG

[AtheistCrusader]

98. Yeah, induction stuff is sweet.

And surprisingly inexpensive. I still bet it doesn't say it's ok for unattended use though.

Or rather, says 'NOT FOR unattended use'

[Fumesucker]

100. Any device that uses electricity is capable of starting a fire

People think "short" when a fire is caused by an electrical appliance but a short usually just trips the breaker and doesn't start a fire, a high resistance partially "open" circuit is much more prone to fire starting since that doesn't trip the breaker and the high resistance creates a lot of heat in a small spot that isn't supposed to get hot in normal use, usually some sort of connector or other place two wires are joined together and the joint deteriorates from corrosion of one sort or another.

Rechargeable batteries are a good way to burn yourself with a short, don't stick rechargeable cells in your pocket because many of them will generate enough heat if they are shorted to scorch the hell out of you. Even a single AAA NiMH cell will create enough heat to give you a nasty burn and you could conceivably start a fire with one.

[hrmjustin]

103. I can tell you that because of this the FDNY and leaders of the Orthodox Jewish community are doing

a large scale educstion campaign on the dangers of hotplates. They are also promoting smoke detectors.

Such a tragic story.