The two principle miracles of Christianity

[SamG]

Jesus, born of a virgin on Christmas day, and died on Good Friday and rose from the dead on Easter.

Without these two miracles, evidently, Christianity has little meaning above or apart from any other faith. True, Jesus, whoever and wherever and whenever he lived, is chronicled by later writers 50 or more years after his life as someone who could teach us all many moral lessons and had a persuasive manner of doing so. We can all respect that, believers in God, and non-believers.

But somehow on these two holidays we are asked to believe the miracles of his birth and of his resurrection. And that, after all, makes all the difference for most Christians. Or am I missing something here?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I agree that Christians focus on things that are less important -

the "birthday" of Jesus, the rising of Jesus to heaven, etc.

They ignore everything in between. For example, Jesus' wish to focus on the needs of the poor, Jesus' pointing out that the rich had a harder road to get into heaven, Jesus' forgiveness of people, Jesus' inherent dislike of punishment of people.

All that goes ignored by most Christians.

Instead they focus on the superficial, and on Easter eggs and Christmas wreaths.

[Thats my opinion]

7. who is they?

Nobody I know, and I know a bunch about these people.
Clearly you observe from the outside if you only see superficials like Easter eggs and Chritmas wreaths.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Shouldn't Christianity be focused on helping the needy, move away from capitalism and wealth,

and things like that?

I don't see Christianity doing that.

[Thats my opinion]

23. They you don't look in the right places.

[JDStone]

2. It is all fiction

There is no dead-man god, no resurrection -- it is total fiction.

There is no "Invisible-Man-in-the-Sky" who runs a SuperMagicLand where your dead grandma lives in a cloud condo.

That is the totality of Christian theology -- minus the devil and burning in hell fire for non-believers. Believe or burn crapology!

Religions, especially Abrahamic derivations, are malignant cancers metastasizing on humanity!

Go ahead and check out the purveyors of these lies, at ClergyGoneWild.com:
http://clergygonewild.com/

[Thats my opinion]

8. How bigoted. Happy Easter to you too. nt

[eqfan592]

18. I don't believe that would fit under "bigotry."

He clearly doesn't believe in christianities creed, but that isn't the same thing as bigotry.

[Thats my opinion]

24. "malignant cancers....." If anyone called atheism that, would you say it was bigorty? nt

[pscot]

25. Atheists aren't blowing up planned parenthood clinics

in the name of nogod.

[darkstar3]

27. Or shooting doctors, or denying medical care to women,

or burning Qu'rans, or trying to bring about theocracy, or...or....or...

[eqfan592]

33. Ummm, where in that post did he/she say that?

I've read it several times now and have yet to see it.

[Goblinmonger]

19. Please explain how that is bigotry.

Little harsh maybe.

[mr blur]

31. #19

[emilyg]

13. Happy Easter. I believe.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Some put more weight on the life of Christ than the death. Some don't

even believe in the two miracles as literal, but see them as metaphorical.

Here's an interesting article regarding Good Friday I ran across the other day: http://www.shuckandjive.org/2012/04/good-friday-reflection.html?spref=fb

[Vincardog]

4. It seems to me that you are missing a Rabbi breaking the rules. He extended the faith to the unclean

the untouchables.
He threw the establishment (the money changers) out of God's house.
He broke the rules (water into wine).
He taught by example that everyone has value and the importance of considering their needs above his own.
In brief he transformed a vengeful vindictive old testament God into the
Compassionate forgiving God of the New testament.

If you don't see the importance of his life you missed the entire point.

If so that is fine. It is a little like saying an Airplane ride is the same as a train ride if they both get you to the same destination.

[handmade34]

5. you forgot...

walking on water
turning water into wine
feeding the masses with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes
healing the sick and disabled (many times)
bringing a widow's son back to life
etc....

and here I say... when I applied to go to seminary I had to write a 20 page essay... it was entitled "I Love My Story"

I used to love 'my story' and a part of me still does but fundamentalists and ignorant people of all sorts have made it very difficult to respect the story and live it and see it for what it is (was). Humans on a very basic level need ritual and it can be very healthy if done openly and in the right frame of mind... if not, it is seriously destructive. What we have in our society right now (as far as Christianity is concerned) is cultish behavior taking over. One minister I worked for, as I began my time in seminary, told me the first day that fundamentalists are dangerous!! Joseph Campbell years ago said we are in a very liminal time; time to create a new story!!!

I see the important role of the church as one that provides community for people that would otherwise not have community or direction... the danger is the strict adherence to 'the story' as fact and the insistance that "my way is the only way" (so why are there hundreds of branches of the Protestant Church???)
The story of Jesus and all his 'adventures' are sweet and delightful and I still secretly delight in the Birth and Resurrection and cry at re-enactments of Palm Sunday and the Crucifixion and others... it is an awesome story but one tainted by ignorance...


Always my favorite when it mattered... John 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus asked Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" Peter said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus told him, "Feed my lambs."
Then he asked him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus told him, "Take care of my sheep."
He asked him a third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was deeply hurt that he had asked him a third time, "Do you love me?" So he said to him, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you!" Jesus told him, "Feed my sheep.

[Tobin S.]

12. Hi handmade

I'm an agnostic and my wife is an Episcopalian. We get along fine most of the time including when it comes to religious matters. One reason for that is that we knew of each others beliefs from the beginning of our relationship. Another is that we are both tolerant people. She does wish that I would go to church more often, and I do go here and there, but nobody there is changing my mind. It is by far, though, the most liberal church I've been to and I really like the people who go there. I went to a breakfast that they had this morning after service at the church, and felt like I was among friends. The church may be experiencing some financial problems in the next couple of years and I'm already determined to do what I can to help them get through.

This is not a fundie church. Nobody there is trying to save me or tell me what to do. They are accepting of me and always happy to see me when I do go to church.

The reason I'm saying this, and attaching my post to yours, is that I think believers and non-believers can get along just fine if they don't judge each other too harshly. I see a lot of intellectual battles here and elsewhere about religion and they usually don't accomplish anything. Nobody seems to change anyone's mind, and maybe they never will. Belief is a very personal thing and is probably rooted deeply in our psyches from our earliest experiences. It's usually not something that can change in a person in a matter of a few moments. It has taken many years since I first started to question faith for me to come to the views that I have now. And guess what? My wife will tell you that it has taken many years for her views to develop as well.

[handmade34]

14. tolerance goes a long way in a healthy society

community or relationship...

Tobin, you tell a lot by your story...

yes, we can (and should) get along... just need to keep reminding some that beliefs are personal and not meant to be forced on others... I still think there is a place for the church in our society... (just not in my body or bedroom!!)

[LARED]

6. You're correct

Without the virgin birth and the resurrection, Christianity is nothing. and should be noted would most likely be a footnote at best in history.

[Thats my opinion]

9. The ignorance and bigotry about what has gone on and still is ,is appalling nt

[skepticscott]

16. Nice of you to call people ignorant bigots

because they don't believe what you do. I'd call that a personal attack, wouldn't you?

And thanks for being a shining example of the type of discourse you claim to want here.

[LARED]

17. Care to expand on your comment or

should I consider it some sort of weird personal attack?

[Goblinmonger]

20. I thought your rules were to treat people's beliefs

with respect? Clearly you just meant your beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

22. You DO realize you are respnding to a true believer, don't you?

In fact, he has advocated for a theocracy in this country. If HE is a bigot, then you most certainly are.

[LARED]

28. That is utter bullcrap

I have never advocated for a theocracry.

[cleanhippie]

32. You know, you may be right. Perhaps that was Leonitus.

And if that is the case, you have my sincere apology.

[mr blur]

30. #18

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. The Archbishop of Canterbury agrees with you about the resurrection

He's an academic theologian, from the centre-to-liberal area of the Church of England. His Easter sermon said:

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams says that the ultimate test of the Christian religion is not whether it is useful, beneficial or helpful to the human race but whether or not its central claim – the resurrection of Jesus Christ – actually happened.

Delivering his Easter morning sermon (full text below) at Canterbury Cathedral, Dr Williams said that no other understanding of Easter morning made any sense:

"Easter makes a claim not just about a potentially illuminating set of human activities but about an event in history and its relation to the action of God. Very simply, in the words of this morning’s reading from the Acts of the Apostles, we are told that ‘God raised Jesus to life.’ "

Any understanding of the significance of the resurrection which fell short of this truth would be to misunderstand it:

"We are not told that Jesus ‘survived death’; we are not told that the story of the empty tomb is a beautiful imaginative creation that offers inspiration to all sorts of people; we are not told that the message of Jesus lives on. We are told that God did something – that is, that this bit of the human record, the things that Peter and John and Mary Magdalene witnessed on Easter morning, is a moment when ... we see through to the ultimate energy behind and within all things. When the universe began, prompted by the will and act of God and maintained in being at every moment by the same will and action, God made it to be a universe in which on a particular Sunday morning in AD33 this will and action would come through the fabric of things and open up an unprecedented possibility – for Jesus and for all of us with him: the possibility of a human life together in which the pouring out of God’s Holy Spirit makes possible a degree of reconciled love between us that could not have been imagined ... for the Christian, the basic fact is that this compelling vision is there only because God raised Jesus"

...
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/2440/archbishops-easter-sermon-2012-god-raised-jesus-to-life

[Goblinmonger]

21. oooh let's see of TMO calls him a bigot? nt

[kwassa]

26. Rowan Williams is not a bigot, he merely enables bigots.

Such is his legacy as the ABC. The homophobic bigoted archbishops such as Peter Akinola of Nigeria were enabled by Williams failure to speak out against them. Williams has a long history of failing to deal with the real issues of the church.

He attempted to impose a churchwide covenant of belief in churches across the Communion, but it failed in votes in his own native England. When the failure became obvious, he submitted his resignation.

[trotsky]

29. Is what he said about Christian doctrine wrong? n/t

[HereSince1628]

15. Isn't transubstantiation a third and ongoing critical miracle?