Let's try this again-

[digonswine]

I asked this in the past, but it remains a question unanswered:

Do you get to choose what to believe?

I also said in the last OP I started about this-
I do know I can't believe in things I don't believe in.
When I said it last time-I was told that I had already made up my mind. This is not true.

My real question is this--is belief and lack of belief equivalent?

I am very aware of my beliefs-I can defend them, I think. Also, I can't NOT think how I think.

Do believers actively choose their beliefs? Do they arrive at them by deliberate thought?

[RobertEarl]

1. You are what you eat

The world is your own personal reality that is a culmination of many personal realities. Everything we see was once a thought, or a dream, or belief in someone's head.

Believe it!

[Cartoonist]

2. Your parents choose for you.

That is often the case. It's called brainwashing. When it begins before birth, it is hard to overcome. One's thought processes become set and religious belief is like walking or breathing.

[digonswine]

13. Yes-they do-

but do we get to choose later, when we can weigh the options?

[Cartoonist]

16. Yes

But like I said, brainwashing can be so implanted, that it takes a Herculean effort to overcome. It's like changing one's perspective from up to down. It becomes even harder in societies where apostasy is punishable by death.

[digonswine]

18. I get that-

I am trying to get the perspective of those that have a relatively free-reign to think what they want.

[Cartoonist]

20. That's a very small group

Parents like to take a hand in their offspring's upbringing. Even atheists often raise atheists. Guidance is expected of parents and is not by definition a bad thing. I probably still have some prejudices in my subconcious that I haven't overcome. I like to think I am now free in my own thoughts, but am I?

[digonswine]

23. That is the question--do you get to pick?

[cbayer]

36. Agree that parents do generally choose for children.

I chose no religion for my children. My parents chose christianity for me.

As adults, we have all found our own place, despite how we were raised. It hasn't been all that difficult to "overcome", probably because we were all raised in homes where it was permissible to follow your own path.

I think there are some religious groups that are more insistent that kids devote themselves to that particular religion. We have also seen stories and reports here of non-religious parents who are very invested in their kids not adopting a religion.

So the question the OP answers remains - is believing or not believing a choice when it comes down to it? Could you choose to be a believer? Could a believer choose to not believe?

[obxhead]

3. I would say the vast majority of believers have their beliefs taught to them.

Some, choose new beliefs later in life as they grow up.

[digonswine]

10. So--is it a choice or decision? Can they help it?

[obxhead]

15. Originally? neither, its training.

Later in life it can become a choice, but I think it only becomes a choice if you disregard the training and choose another path.

[digonswine]

24. So-in the end-you think it is a choice. .

I'm not disagreeing, by the way--I am just curious about how others see this!

[obxhead]

26. I actually think choice is the wrong word.

Some come to a point of reason. A point where they analize things and decide what works for them.

Overall, I think your post is just beating around a greater question you want to ask, but are somehow afraid to fully ask.

Should we believe in superstitions or should we seek reason and abandon this stupidity?

Edit is just a typo not a substance change.

[digonswine]

27. No--that is not the point--

I want to understand how people think about their own beliefs.

Let me be clear--I am an atheist. I know what I can and can't believe, and what I do and don't believe. I want to know how others experience their own beliefs.

It is easy to feel that others are purely stupid and believe stupid shit--I think this attitude is counterproductive and not a little immature as well.

[obxhead]

28. well then, thanks for the clarification.

I honestly believe (ha ha) that if you follow a deity, it is extremely unlikely that you came to that belief all on your own.

Most believe due to indoctrination.

Some believe because of sudden moment where the indoctrination didn't take originally, but some sudden moment that failed indoctrination suddenly took.

Others, the rare minority, needed something to plug a hole and found a superstition.

[digonswine]

30. I do agree-generally--

It does me little good, however, to hear from fellow atheists. I want to know how believers feel. and would describe their feelings on the matter.

[obxhead]

32. The indoctrinated don't know how to feel.

They have been programmed, much like the program you are using to access the internet.

Free thought, truly free thought, is just impossible if a single book or following is the guide.

[cbayer]

37. So, let me make sure I have this right.

Most religious people have been indoctrinated.

They have been programmed like code for a browser and don't know how to feel.

Free thought is just impossible for them.

Do I have that right?

[hrmjustin]

4. My faith was not forced on me. I chose to follow Christianity in my teens after attending Catholic

school. I became Episcopalian at 18 by my own choice.

my own personal faith and what exactly is my choice.

[digonswine]

19. I could look it up--

but I would rather an adherent explain. What is the difference between Catholic and Episcopalian?

When I was in college, my Catholic girlfriend sang at the Epi church. They were nice. They seemed more accepting. A few told me that I could take communion if only I was baptized--I WAS NOT. Their attempt at acceptance was lost on me, alas.
It seemed like Catholic Light-less emphasis on the rituals, more emphasis on kindness!
I liked them, but it was not for me!

[hrmjustin]

21. Episcopalians are is the American branch of the Church of England.

Seperate jurisdiction but in communion together.

We have similiar views theologically to RC's but we tend to be more liberal on social issues.

[digonswine]

25. That's what I have gathered through my experience--

can one get to heaven if one rejects Jesus' divinity? This seems to be the objection from many.

[hrmjustin]

31. Episcopalians don't say that you have to believe in the trinity to get into heaven.

the church tends to leave it up to the member to decide for themself.

The three legged stool of Anglican/Episcopalian faith is scripture, tradition, and reason.

[cbayer]

5. You had twos threads about this in 2013, one with 98 responses and one with 109 responses.

In both of them, you got some really interesting conversation going. But I'm not sure I understand why you are doing it again. Did those threads not answer your questions? Do you think things have changed since then?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/121871875

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121881937

[digonswine]

8. Both got derailed-and, No-it was not answered-and

and it is still a question that has not at all been answered.

You can mine me because it is a question that is interesting to me.

I will tell you--I truly believe that one cannot choose what one disbelieves.

I want to know if one chooses what to believe. It may seem like a waste of time--

also-it just may be the case that this time there may be something that was missing last time--I humbly apologize for wasting your time.


You can always choose to not respond.

[cbayer]

12. Derailed? How so?

Since you were given so many good answers, I am wondering if you are looking for a specific answer and it is just not forthcoming.

I think there are people that do not choose whether to believe or not. Certainly you are one of them. I am one of them too. There are clearly people here who have strong beliefs and they haven't "chosen" that. It's just a part of who they are.

There are lots of kinds of believers and non-believers. Choices may be involved in terms of the particulars.

What do you think the answers to your own questions are?

[digonswine]

17. I can't say-

what my own answers are. I already have them, so they are only worth a bit.

I am not trying to determine intentiality or to determine the worth of others' thoughts.

I truly want to know how others experience their beliefs.

My beliefs are not a choice. If others' are-it does not diminish them.

I have no nefarious aims here--I want to know how people think of their beliefs.

Do I have opinions about others' beliefs? YES-I won't pretend otherwise.
Do I want to try to understand them in a deeper sense--Yes!

[cbayer]

33. So then, what are your opinions about others' beliefs (or lack of beliefs for that matter)?

[digonswine]

11. I am doing it again because the point was lost-

I am simply asking a question and making a statement--

Statement: I do not have the option to believe in a higher power. --This can be debated!

Is this true?: I can't help but to believe in a higher power.

This is rarely discussed and was not not treated in my last OP.

It begs the question--why do I care? --I don't know-but I do. And it is interesting to me.

[cbayer]

14. So you are making the statement that you do not have a choice and asking

the question whether others who see things differently also do not have a choice? Is that right?

Generally speaking, why would they be any different than you?

[digonswine]

22. Yes-that is what I am asking-in a nutshell

Why would they be any different from me?

They may not be.

BUT--not having the choice to NOT believe something is NOT the same as having no choice but to believe something.

There may be a value judgment after the result--but I am not talking about that.

[cbayer]

35. I don't think they are unlike you at all.

This is the thing. You seem to assume that you have walked a higher road and come to some more meaningful conclusion.

But you haven't. You have only walked your road and come to your conclusion.

Do you need for it to be more true than the conclusions that others have reached?

[DetlefK]

6. That depends on whether the belief comes before or after the challenge.

You witness something. You have a belief for what the explanation is, but you can't prove it according to the scientific method, so it's your belief.
-> The event shaped you and decided what kind of belief it is. (That's why all the religions are so different. In norse mythology, trees are an important symbol, snakes are not. In egyptian mythology, snakes are an important symbol, trees are not.)



Then comes an event or person who calls the veracity of your belief into question, using some evidence or chain of arguments. However, the belief is already locked down as "true", so you CHOOSE to belief in the Bible and in the Big Bang at the same time.
-> You shape the belief until it fits to events.


EDIT: There is a music-video that might help:

[Silent3]

7. Not an answer, but something to refine the question: Do you get to choose anything at all?

It's good to remember that the idea of "free will" is hardly a settled issue. It could be that all sense of having a choice about anything is illusory, be it religion or what you're going to eat for breakfast.

Considering this, the question then becomes: If we provisionally accept that there is such a thing called "choice", that at least on some matters we can exercise "free will", are our professed religious and philosophical positions among those matters?

[digonswine]

9. I am a presuppositionalist on this point-

I assume-perhaps incorrectly- that we do have just a bit of choice regarding what we do--
I come to this point from the standpoint that our reality somewhat reflects actual reality--otherwise, any discussion would be useless.

[guillaumeb]

29. possibly yes, or maybe not

Humans are not reptiles. We require many years of "parenting/socialization" before we are able to function independently. Part of that parenting/socialization process, is the process that teaches us how to fit In a particular society. This also involves the teaching of beliefs. Belief about a religion, about forms of government, about historical myth common to the society. One cannot be a human without beliefs.

When you talk about belief vs. lack of belief I will assume that you speak about religion, or faith, or something equivalent. If this is so, have you considered that a non-believer is actually a believer? One who believes that there is no god, or creator, or higher power, is exercising/affirming a belief. If you believe there is no higher power and another person believes that there is what difference is there? You are both believers.

But if by belief you actually mean faith that is a different matter. Faith has been defined as the willing suspension of disbelief.

As to faith, it is apparent I feel that many people who profess to have a particular religious faith do not literally follow every tenet expressed in their faith. I hope that most Christians and Jews, even the most orthodox among them, do not believe in stoning people who wear mixed fiber clothing, or people who eat shellfish, or men without beards. Even among Christians who profess to literally believe in the Bible do not abide by every Biblical proscription.

So unless you are that person who declares as a Biblical literalist, and who also follows every tenet, you do choose what to believe.

[Fumesucker]

34. It depends on the belief and on the individual

A fundamentalist I knew once asked me why I accepted evolutionary theory and I told him because it made sense to me, I could understand it. He then asked me where life came from and I asked him where God came from and

From my point of view the universe does not need a creator because hypothesizing it does leads to an infinite cascade of creators, each one requiring a creator before them. It's enough to make a person want to lie down and take a nice nap until their head stops hurting.

For me personally, no I don't get to choose, others may differ.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. I could choose to believe.

I think it would take about as much effort to believe as it does to choose and align to a particular sports team.

Probably takes less faith than to be a cubs fan.

I don't choose it, but I'm well aware I can lie to myself. People do it for various reasons all the time.

[gcomeau]

40. I would say...

...that people who lie to themselves don't allow themselves to dwell on the fact that they're doing it, but they're aware of it on at least some level, and thus have not actually chosen a belief. They have only chosen to adopt the appearance of one.

[gcomeau]

39. Only indirectly.

You can choose what degree of scrutiny to subject your beliefs to. What evidence to analyze. What claims to examine.

But whether the data you encounter during that analysis causes you to begin to actually believe something or not is not a voluntary choice.

(If anyone doubts this and would like to put it to the test, believe Santa exists for me right now. Don't just say it, *really* believe it. Be absolutely convinced he's real. Just for 5 minutes even. Go ahead.)

[pinto]

41. Had an interesting talk with my sister over coffee this Saturday.

She's a new grandmother (9 months) and has spent quite a lot of time with her daughter just talking about things. My niece ascribes to no religion at all. Interestingly, imo, she is married to a guy with a degree in theology who also ascribes to no religion at all.

So the topic came up. My sister asked her daughter how she felt being raised in a family with no religion of choice. Short changed? Lucky? Odd? Indifferent?

"None of the above" was her answer. "You and dad raised me with a clear sense of right and wrong, what it means to be a moral person, personally and in my life. Common sense and compassion. I hope to do the same with my son."

She has become an adamant example of that in action as an adult.

My niece was never "blocked" from any one path. She explored various religions with friends, attended services, celebrations and such. Yet chose none. LOL, statistically she is solidly in the demographic definition of "Nones"

(one of those neat family side notes) My niece had a pet rabbit who died of an insect borne infection that went through the area. There was this pause to consider, OK what do we do? No one wanted to simply toss the rabbit in the trash for pick up. My niece made the call - she wanted a funeral. That was going to be it. There was no question. So we had a short procession out into the open space at the end of the street. Single file. Candles and the deceased rabbit wrapped in a blanket. Two shovels.

My brother in law and I dug the grave, my niece laid the bundle in and said a few words. We walked back up to the house and a good meal was had by all.