Vatican calls Irish referendum a ‘defeat for humanity’

[Warren Stupidity]

The Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, has called the result of the Irish same-sex marriage equality referendum a “defeat for humanity”.

Until Tuesday night, there had been no official Holy See reaction to the Yes vote in the referendum.

When that reaction finally came from Cardinal Parolin, the Vatican equivalent of prime minister, it was nothing if not hardline and outspoken:

“This result left me feeling very sad but as the Archbishop of Dublin [Diarmuid Martin] pointed out, the Church will have to take this reality on board in the sense of a renewed and strengthened evangelisation. I believe that we are talking here not just about a defeat for Christian principles but also about a defeat for humanity,” Cardinal Parolin told reporters on the margins of a Centesimus Annus conference in the Vatican.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-calls-irish-referendum-a-defeat-for-humanity-1.2226957

[hrmjustin]

1. Oh Bullshit! It was a fantastic!

[okasha]

4. And a good many Irish priests supported it.

The hierarchy need to hitch up their cassocks and put on some speed to catch up. The Church is the people, not the bishops.

[hrmjustin]

6. Well said!

[AtheistCrusader]

9. That is not how the RCC is architected.

Pleasant wishful thinking though.

[okasha]

11. Sorry. It is.

Your everyday Catholic has no need for the hierarchy. The reverse is not true.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. That is such crap. Are you serious?

The pope and his cabal aren't answerable to the people, but good luck with that.

[okasha]

14. You might want to get the perspective

of some actual members of hierarchical churches.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Yeah right. I've never done that.

These people showed up to express their outrage, I'm sure.

[okasha]

19. And you talked to all those people!

Indefatigable!

[AtheistCrusader]

21. You really are too much.

[cleanhippie]

37. You've been given the equivalent to the Creationist argument "were you there?"

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Good analogy, Except, in a way, we both were there.

There was plenty of news coverage of the pope in Europe and the Philippines, being fawned over by his adoring masses, as he attacked the concept of same sex marriage.

I saw not a shred of protest, objection, etc. so, in this case, we were there, we did see, and the character of the fawning masses was clearly lacking respect for human rights.

[rug]

20. 62% of their confreres in Ireland voted for the referendm.

I wonder why that makes you unhappy.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. I'm quite happy to see the progress in Ireland.

I'm not happy to see people pretending this is anything other than what it is.

I'm also hopeful this will lead to the disintegration of the RCC, so, aside from some noxious posts here pretending this flows uphill, I'm quite pleased.

[rug]

32. What it is is an overwhelming majority of Catholics voting for equal rights.

They can distinguish between the role of church and the role of state even if you can't.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. The church can't distinguish between the role of the church and the role of the state.

That's your problem. Not me.

Till that changes, from the top down, your church remains my adversary on a number of issues.

[rug]

35. The Church incldes its members who madev this vote.

No one gives a shit who your "adversary" is.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. So explain then, how this audience came to the correct conclusion, yet

The two visits by the pope in the last six months (example the Philippines) gets a different result from the people in those countries, that aligns with the popes public pronouncements and encouragement to keep SSM illegal. Why the different result, and why the dogged determination to have an opinion on matters of the state by the church leadership?

You don't get to vote on the pope, so don't pretend the church is anything other than a top down hierarchy. The pope is not answerable to the people.

[rug]

44. They realize that the bishops have no more authority on legislation than anyone else.

That, combined with the many progressive aspects of Catholic social teaching, make this vote a natural one.

I read an article last week that Catholics voted for same sex marriage as a civili right not despite Catholicism, but because of it.

Catholics don't want politicians as bishops.

IMO.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. I wonder how they came to a different conclusion than the pope on

Catholicism supporting progressive rights.

Seems like there are different play books in use.

[rug]

47. Catholicism supports many progressive rights.

As to marriage equality, my question is how the bishops came to the conclusion that they have any authority to attempt to dictate civil legislation.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. Probably from the pope.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/gay-marriage-honeymoon-pope-francis

He openly supported church involvement against SSM in Slovakia.

[rug]

55. That was a rhetorical question.

It goes back to Leo and Attila.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Not so 'overwhelming'; 45% of 'yes voters' were religious, 75% of 'no' voters

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll

At 62% yes, 38% no, that's 28% were religious people who voted 'yes', and 28% who voted 'no'.

I'm overwhelmed. Really.

[rug]

40. I'm sorry you're disappointed in the election results.

BTW, your statistic is useless unless you know the raw numbers to apply the percentage to.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. As opposed to your assertion that 'overwhelming' numbers of Catholics voted yes?

Which actually has no evidence for it?

What I have quoted is as close as we're going to get for evidence. About half of religious people in Ireland voted yes, and half no. That's a lot better than the priesthood (estimated at 25% 'yes', according to a Washington Post) or the Vatican's "defeat for humanity", but it's not an overwhelming majority.

I never tried to imply that you are 'disappointed' in the referendum result; it says a lot, all bad, about your character that you want to accuse me of it.

[rug]

45. Convert your percentages into numbers then.

How many Catholics voted for the referendum compared to nonbelievers who voted for it?

I'll give you a hint. Nonbelievers (even if accurately counted) could not on their own caused this result.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. That's a different argument

You said "What it is is an overwhelming majority of Catholics voting for equal rights.". It was a bare majority, or even perhaps a bare minority.

But, yes, of course, nonbelievers on their own would have made an even bigger win for 'yes'. 62% of everyone 'yes', 38% 'no'. If 45% of yes voters were religious, and 75% of no voters were, we have:
.45*62%=27.9% yes, religious
.55*62%=34.1% yes, non-religious
.75*38%=28.5% no, religious
.25*28%=9.5% no, non-religious.

Non-believers on their own would have been a 78% yes, 22% no split. Believers on their own might have been a 'no' result.

There are the numbers for you, but wasn't the basic result of that blindingly obvious from the far larger numbers of no voters saying they are religious?

[rug]

49. It's a much more pertinent statistic than "45% of 'yes voters' were religious, 75% of 'no' voters".

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. Did you actually read my post #39? Or just the title?

I didn't stop at just giving the 45% and 75% figures. I used them, in #39, to show the numbers of believers voting yes and no were roughly even. I used them again in the post you just replied to. That's how pertinent they were - they are what shows you wrong.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. "they are what shows you wrong" - not possible.

never happened in the history of du.

[rug]

56. You gave percentages. Do you have actual numbers?

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. Do you need help converting percentages to numbers?

Oh dear, the state of American education a few decades ago.

I'm sure you can find an online site or course explaining it all to you, rug. It'll be much better for you in the long run if you find out how to do that yourself than having someone work it out for you.

[rug]

58. Why, yes I do. Now, how about those numbers?

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. This is not a primary school maths class

Do it yourself. Seriously, it's a skill every adult ought to have. If you are incapable, you need to learn.

[rug]

60. I see. You don't have the numbers.

Really, it's ok to say that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. Sadly, your attempt at hijacking the thread further was all too predictable

You can convert the percentages into numbers of people yourself, rug. Any time you want. All it takes is for you to use maths you should have learnt at the age of 10. You don't need someone else to do it for you.

I've shown your claim about 'overwhelming' numbers of Catholics voting 'yes' was wrong; I've shown more non-believers voted 'yes'. But you just can't admit that you had assumed something about the way Catholics voted that turned out to be incorrect, so you are now pretending that only I have to power to reveal to you the number of people involved.

Everyone knows you're doing this to be annoying, rather than from any sort of interest in discussion. It's your nature. Have you ever considered surprising us by arguing in good faith? It would be so refreshing.

[rug]

62. You know, muriel, instead of typing yoir imagination of me at age 10, you could have posted numbers.

If you have them, that is.

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. For all I know, you were a delightful human being at age 10

I haven't been talking about you at age 10 at all. I've been pointing out that you are failing to use basic knowledge you should have acquired when you were 10.

You could post the numbers too, rug, if you really try. I'm not your calculator. I'm not your monkey. I'm not your slave. You want the numbers, then work them out. You think there's a need for them.

[rug]

64. Oh, I was.

BTW, here's another take on the referendum. It doesn't have the raw numbers either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12216186

[AtheistCrusader]

16. You realize there are non catholic Christians that take what the pope says as gospel, right?

At least they do for now. If he changed his tune, they might change theirs.

Till then, show me the money.

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. As an ex-member of a hierarchical church, I am happy to offer mine:

You're either drawing from a limited sample or you're not being entirely honest.

The Pope might not exert as much influence over individual parishes as most non-Catholics (or non-ex-Catholics) seem to think, but the Bishops certainly do.

[Cartoonist]

2. 180 degrees from reality

So what else is news. Calling it a defeat for humanity is as repulsive as it gets.

[bvf]

3. Perhaps a new language is called for.

Sickening, but not unexpected. Where's Frank?

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Funny, that's exactly how I feel about the church.

A defeat for humanity. Apt.

[Yorktown]

8. You atheists have your morals upside down

How can the Church be a defeat for humanity?

When the sole purpose of life is to praise the creator?

[Hoppy]

10. But if the purpose of life is to praise the creator, then the creator was not perfect.

He needed something and that something was praise. Then we get to the point that if it was praise he needed, why not just buy/create a dvd player, record praise and play it back 24/7?

[Yorktown]

13. That's because the sound of DVD players isn't as good as that of believers.

DVD players don't express submission well enough.

[Hoppy]

17. They are totally submissive. Press the button and they play.

What they don't do is give money and De Lawd sore needs money.

[Yorktown]

18. But DVD players are not willingly submissive

The finger must press the 'on' button, and it's not as voluptuous.

To have a billion people pointing their backsides upwards 5 times a day,
to have another billion people willingly bowing to the statue of an elephant,
to have another billion saying gthey are sinners and need to be saved,

that is true submission. Orgasmic if you're a standard issue god.


Of course, if you are the one and true Flying Spaghetti Monster, you do not require such childish prostration.

[Yorktown]

7. Conclusion: gays are not humans

Gays wished to have marriage equality
But the Vatican says gay marriage is a “defeat for humanity”
Therefore gays do not belong to humanity, or they would feel defeated by the Irish vote.

It's so good to have the Roman Catholic Church make the world easier to understand.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. The fact that they think that, is the defeat for humanity.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Legalizing gay marriage, on the other hand, was one huge step forward for mankind.[/font]

[Lordquinton]

24. in before the vatican doesn't speak for the pope.

Not that that is by any means true in this instance, we all know Francis is a top notch homophobe.

[skepticscott]

25. And yet there are still those here

who naively think that the Catholic Church is a democracy, that the "people" are the church and not the Vatican. Of course, if that were true, the "people" could simply chuck the guys in the red hats overboard and form their own church that wasn't sexist and homophobic but that still used incense and all the same moves. Strangely enough, they don't.

[trotsky]

27. Change from within! Nuns on the bus! PERIL!!!!11ones!

Yeah, right. The decent people are leaving the church. Only bigots and enablers will be left to defend the shell of what remains.

[trotsky]

26. Fuck you, Cardinal.

Let's check the scorecard, shall we?

OFFENSES AGAINST HUMANITY
Marriage Equality: 0
The RCC: unfuckingcountable

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. So, basically the cardinal thinks Ireland hasn't been sufficiently

>>> a renewed and strengthened evangelisation.>>>>

exposed to official church doctrine. Or is it that the "snakes" suddenly regenerate after 1700 years?

Jaysus, Mary and Holy Saint Joseph! How much 'evangelization" can one poor little island take?

Speaking of "defeats for humanity": has Pope Groovy weighed in publicly yet ?

[skepticscott]

29. He hasn't and he won't

The Vatican PR game requires that he appear to be above it all, a progressive in a sea of sexist, homophobic bigotry. When in fact he is at the heart of it, and fully in support of all church doctrine. Which of course requires him to say nothing at a time like this, when a truly courageous man of principle would have no hesitation in speaking out for what's right.

Unfortunately, some DUers don't like being called on the carpet on these uncomfortable facts.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. This was pope 'groovy''s official mouthpiece.

However he, being the pope and everything, can say something ambiguous later to try to paper over this mess.

I think the Irish people's respect for the church was pretty much wrecked over the revelations of decades of abuse of women and children on a massive scale. It is kind of hard to come back from that, but declaring a vote for compassion and equality a 'defeat for civilization' is pretty much the exact opposite of how to start that process.

[Smarmie Doofus]

54. A *phenomenal* stat I saw this week seems to bear this out:

>>>I think the Irish people's respect for the church was pretty much wrecked over the revelations of decades of abuse of women and children on a massive scale>>>>

To wit: weekly church attendance ( probably as good a measure as any of how seriously the church is taken) has declined to 10% from above 80% as recently as the 1990s.

That's a friggin' *reformation*. Even His Grooviness is not going to get the toothpaste back in THAT tube.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Vatican stands by Cardinal’s remarks on referendum

On the morning after Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, called the result of last weekend’s referendum a “disaster for humanity”, the Holy See was still standing by its man.

Senior Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi not only confirmed that Cardinal Parolin had used these words but he also indicated that the Vatican was sticking by them, word for word.

Pointing out that Cardinal Parolin had made his comment on the margins of a Vatican conference, Father Lombardi said that the Secretary of State had given his immediate reaction to the referendum result but that he had not had time or space to further elaborate his thoughts.

Asked by The Irish Times if the Secretary of State would like to outline those thoughts in greater detail to the Irish public, Father Lombardi suggested that this would not be opportune just at the moment, in as much as such an explanation might generate further polemics and misunderstanding.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-stands-by-cardinal-s-remarks-on-referendum-1.2227805

[trotsky]

34. Sad but not surprising.

At least not to any of us who had the new pope pegged from the beginning as nothing but a PR creation.

[PoutrageFatigue]

36. So, covering up kiddie-fiddling priests = fine. Gay marriage = Defeat for humanity

No wonder that criminal organisation is becoming less and less relevant despite the best efforts of Pope Frank's PR department...

[arcane1]

52. Yes, how will poor humanity get over this tragedy?

Tell you what, Pietro. You worry about your little pretend country and we'll worry about the real world. Deal?