Sam Harris and Cenk Uygur Clear the Air on Religious Violence and Islam

[yuiyoshida]

This was fascinating...

[delrem]

1. Fascinating is right!

I'm 25 minutes in, and Sam Harris is coming off as a hateful weasel who hangs his hat on a faux "atheism".

But I'm interested in what Cenk is saying about deeper matters than Sam can comprehend.
Cenk is one of the best.

[delrem]

2. I listened through two hours,

and I have to say that I learned how to detest Sam Harris.

Now that is one bigoted soul, that's for sure.

whew.

[Yorktown]

3. I listened that discussion a while back

I remember a polite conversation between two guys who did not differ radically.

Any passage that struck you as hateful on the part of Harris?

(ideally with a rough timing, I probably won't listen the whole thing again)

[delrem]

4. The whole thing.

I thought his claim to "atheism" was disingenuous, because his anti-Islamic ranting had nothing to do with "atheism" and everything to do with hatred of a people. The hatred ran deeper the longer the interview went on. Cenk was good and drew the guy out.

There was a massive difference in point of view. Perhaps you didn't watch the same interview.

[MellowDem]

5. I haven't even watched the interview...

But you already seem to have a strange definition of atheism and bigotry, the same definitions put forward by the religious right, just substituting Christianity for Islam.

There's nothing fake about Harris' atheism that I can see, just because he dislikes Islam. And disliking Islam alone is not bigoted, no more so than disliking any other ideology or belief system.

True atheists can also be anti-theists and there's nothing inherently bigoted about it, unless you think anti-fascism is also bigoted, for example.

I think Islam, and all Abrahamic religions really, are quite terrible, as they advocate bigotry, eternal torture, genocide, slavery and misogyny among other things.

[delrem]

6. I didn't give a definition of atheism and bigotry.

Perhaps you should watch the interview, so you can know what you're talking about.

[MellowDem]

7. You said that his claim to atheism was...

disingenuous because he was ranting against Islam, and that he was about hating people because he was ranting against Islam, neither makes sense unless you have a very strange definition of the words.

If you think he's a bigot, just give some of his statements or time stamps that show it. I certainly don't agree with Harris on everything he says, and it's quite possible he's a bigot, but would be nice if you have an example.

[delrem]

8. I'll just stand by what I said.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. You can't give one example from that video?

Why not?

[delrem]

11. Because I don't want to.

I've had enough of Mr. Harris.
You can study his thought, if you want.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Ah I see.

First it was "the whole thing", now you seem to be admitting you haven't even watched it. Perhaps you have learned about the alleged bigotry of Mr. Harris from the reports of others?

[delrem]

15. I watched 2 +1/4 hours of it. It became too painful to continue.

I knew nothing of Mr Harris before watching the interview.
I did google him afterward. Some article about torture, but I'd had enough by then.

Sorry if I don't meet your standards.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. And you can't give one example of his alleged bigotry.

I remain unconvinced of either claim.

[delrem]

18. I don't care. You can watch the interview yourself and come to your own opinion.

[Yorktown]

9. I'll try to listen to it again, but I think I agree with MellowDem

From memory, yes, Harris doesn't like Islam. Islam, the doctrine.
That is not enough to make him a bigot with hatred of a particular people.
There are Arabs who are Christians (10% in Egypt), there are caucasian Muslims (Chechnya)

As MellowDem pointed out, the three abrahamic monotheisms can be rejected for rational reasons, and that would not be hate or bigotry.

[delrem]

12. It's rather more nuanced than that. Listen to Cenk.

[Yorktown]

14. I did. From memory, Cenk still has some emotional link to Islam.

From my understanding of the dialogue (which I'll try to re-listen to, given time), Cenk in some unsaid way amalgamates the religion (Islam) with its followers, hence defends them due to his emotional background.

From memory, Harris just attacked in a more detached/clinical way the doctrine (and not people)

That's why the dialogue was interesting, it's a dialogue between atheists with differences due to background.

[delrem]

16. No, that isn't correct.

[Yorktown]

19. I'll try to listen to it again

[delrem]

20. OK.

It isn't an easy subject.
Not 14 yrs into the WoT...

[Yorktown]

21. Oh, my opposition to Islam goes further than the WTC

As do my objections to religions in general.

[delrem]

22. I don't care. The discussion isn't about you.

[Yorktown]

23. The subject was not easy well before 9/11 is what I meant.

in answer to '(not an) easy subject .. 14 yrs into the WoT'