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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 11:43 AM Jul 2015

How do believers decide whether a belief is valid?

- There is a monster under my bed.
- Lizard-people have infiltrated government.
- We had a great time: There will definitely be a second date.
- I believe that the dinosaurs went extinct in the great flood.
- I believe that dinosaurs never existed and are just a hoax to test our belief.
- I believe that Earth is 6000 years old.
- I believe that God created the Big Bang.
- I believe that we should be nice to everybody.
- I believe we should chop off the heads of the infidels.
- I believe I have my keys in the other jacket.



What criteria are used by believers when determining how to react to a belief?

How do believers decide whether to believe what they are told?

How do believers decide whether to react to a new belief with "I-must-talk-him-out-of-this" or with "I-should-tolerate-this"?

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How do believers decide whether a belief is valid? (Original Post) DetlefK Jul 2015 OP
This is an impossible question to answer for any follower of a revealed religion. trotsky Jul 2015 #1
But, how can I rule out that there's a monster under my child's bed? DetlefK Jul 2015 #2
The supreme irony, as we have seen now in this very thread, is that... trotsky Jul 2015 #7
Watch this and believe! hedda_foil Jul 2015 #8
So much out-group nonsense. Igel Jul 2015 #4
To the contrary, it takes an outsider's perspective to understand. trotsky Jul 2015 #6
Here', I'll save us some time. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #3
It's a sliding scale. Igel Jul 2015 #5
I've got to give you credit for providing such a thoughtful answer cbayer Jul 2015 #9
Seems to be when the 'Revelation'... uriel1972 Jul 2015 #10
I was once on a jury goldent Jul 2015 #11
I believe I'll have another beer Major Nikon Jul 2015 #12
'Feels good, man'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #13
There's so many different types of believers. ZombieHorde Jul 2015 #14

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. This is an impossible question to answer for any follower of a revealed religion.
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 11:48 AM
Jul 2015

Because the very existence of revealed religions is predicated on the divine interacting with one person or a limited number of people to reveal new "knowledge." Knowledge that necessarily overturned what were believed to be "truths" before. So at any time, their god could decide to do it again.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
2. But, how can I rule out that there's a monster under my child's bed?
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 12:07 PM
Jul 2015

The child told me so!

This isn't meant in a sarcastic way. The child believes that there's a monster under the bed. What am I supposed to do with that belief?
Should I accept the child's right to belief whatever it wants to believe?
Should I talk the child into switching from its belief to my belief?
Should I try to destroy its belief with facts?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
7. The supreme irony, as we have seen now in this very thread, is that...
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 01:14 PM
Jul 2015

information, knowledge, and experience from OUTSIDE the religion must be employed in order to analyze and refine its tenets. Believers themselves don't even realize they're doing it most of the time. The differences in religions take shape on exactly what outside information and experience you're going to let in.

Just as the information, knowledge, and experience you have as an adult can be used to dismiss the child's claim, so must it be used to analyze the claims of religion. But not too much, or you might just end up rejecting the claims altogether.

Igel

(35,334 posts)
4. So much out-group nonsense.
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 12:28 PM
Jul 2015

It happens that "revealed religions" often (a) have gaps in what's revealed, (b) can have what's revealed be reinterpreted, (c) it can be found that there was a misunderstanding.

Monsters under the bed? Unless it's been "revealed" that there are or aren't monsters under the bed, the question stands.

If it can be shown that the exegesis leading to the revelation in the preceding paragraph is or might be faulty, then the question stands for at least some people. This might be mere indecision; it might be people coming to different decisions over minor points.

If monsters are found under the bed, then it will be determined that there was a flaw in the understanding--the revelation was accurate, but the understanding of what it meant was flawed.

Been in all three, done that. (a) is frequent. (b) is fairly common, and things can move from "we know this" to "perhaps we don't." And (c) happens, and when it does one of several things happens, depending on the importance of the doctrine and its rigidity: some accept the change, some deny the change and become schismatics (if the minority) or those who accept the change leave (and become heretics), and some just leave that tradition altogether. You also get differences when a "late" revelation happens and is/isn't accepted by different portions of the community.

Take the Worldwide Church of God. It's gone, so it's safe.

Whether to observe Thanksgiving was left open to personal choice.

Whether to have a poor tithe every 3 years or one year in 7 was a matter of revelation for some and not for others. Same for duck: I knew people who wouldn't eat duck, I knew people who would. Birthday observance and make-up were other squishy doctrines--depending when you joined, depending who you listened to, you had different attitudes.

At some point, the organization changed when it observed Pentecost. Did you count 50 days from a starting point and start Pentecost at the end of day 50, or did you count 50 days and that day was Pentecost? Which day did you start the count from? That produced a small schism because most people didn't follow the argumentation either way. A couple of years later it was decided that people could easily divorce, another change in "revelation". There was immediately a large schism. Later changes included eliminating tithing, saying pork was fine for human consumption, and changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and altering what it meant to "observe" the Sabbath--so work on Saturday was fine, it wasn't the Sabbath, and work on Sunday was fine because Sabbath observance wasn't strict. These also produced schisms. However, in each case people also accepted the changes and the rationale for them--most people for the first changes, but as they piled up, then it became more of a problem for the organization.

In other words, your claim is falsified. It's quite possible for people in revealed religions to make choices about how to answer such questions. In fact, many have to on a routine basis. Take the Episcopalians--a revealed religion, which split over gay rights.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
6. To the contrary, it takes an outsider's perspective to understand.
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 01:09 PM
Jul 2015

Especially one who used to be in your "group."

My claim is anything BUT falsified. In fact, God just spoke to me and told me that you're wrong. Prove that he didn't.

Igel

(35,334 posts)
5. It's a sliding scale.
Thu Jul 16, 2015, 12:48 PM
Jul 2015

You'll get slightly different answers from different people.

In many cases, the religion has no opinion. Then they make the decision about like you would, I'm guessing. Gut feeling, weigh the pros and cons, go with what's convenient or, given your experience and perceptions of your experience what is most likely to be veridical. (I'll use the word 'veridical', which just means 'true', to mean "coinciding with observed reality" or what mere observed reality would predict.) Monsters under beds, lizard people in government.

Dating is a bit more complex, of course, because then you're also evaluating not just easily tabulated pros and cons but emotions, compatibility, etc. Then religion, being a signal of compatibility in ritual and morality, tends to come into play, along with convenience in avoiding bloodshed when it comes to how to raise the kids.

In many cases, the belief has no consequence. The dinosaurs went extinct before the flood? Whoopee. The US and Britain are the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel? So what? A lot of prophecy falls into this; a lot of it is just there to reconcile other beliefs with what outsiders say in order to avoid controversy or, about as often, to avoid the outsiders from making claims about core doctrines that often involve ritual or moral claims. It's when people start insisting that you believe X or when the claims start hitting more important doctrines that you get real pushback. Evolution's only a big deal for most people because of what follows afterwards, so it gets an easy kludge. Then the criterion used is, "Does it safeguard other beliefs that I cherish?" In a few cases of absolutists these fringe "doctrines" are made into large issues, mostly because they relish fighting as much as their opponents.

To the last three questions.

Different faith systems have different criteria. So Episcopals have the text of the Bible (however that get's interpreted), tradition (both bible interpretation and other stuff), and "the holy spirit" which often means "whatever the hell we think is a good idea right now." Other faiths rely on "the holy spirit" and "inspiration" more or less.

Some are strictly text-based, with tradition or principles guiding how to interpret the text. So believers, faced with a new claim or situation, go to the text. Gut feelings work their way in--"I can't believe the text says that" is followed by a huge "study" to disprove it, with the criteria for disproving getting lower and lower. Or "I need the text to say that"--again, it's motivated thinking. In some cases there are traditional intepretations or appeals to human authority. "He's the apostle of Gawd!"

Some Islams are like the Episcopals. Some like more text-based. Some have the Sunnah, which are traditional stories to fill in cracks and provide context; all rely on argumentation, which you're often free to accept or reject but which pattern into fiqhs or schools of jurisprudence.

Some doctrines are more important than others. My old church would have no problem with gay rights; it would explode with fury at gay marriage. It would see no problem with the difference. It kicked out unmarried people who insisted on having sex, and beyond that didn't care who you wanted to lay. It really insisted on Jesus' "in the beginning" line to dispose of divorce and Paul's "husband of one wife"--taken not just to mean "no polygamy" and "only heterosexual marriages" but also "no divorce." So if you were gay, you wouldn't marry. If you'd been married, you also woudn't marry. In fact, if you had doubts about a relationship, you tended ... not to marry. Otherwise you're stuck married and unhappy or stuck divorced and unhappy. At the same time, if you celebrated your birthday or accepted Xmas presents, meh.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
11. I was once on a jury
Sun Jul 19, 2015, 03:03 PM
Jul 2015

and the reasoning people used to believe or disbelieve particular testimony was all over the board, ranging from trying to use logic (that in many cases was faulty IMO) to observations of the witness, to just a "feeling", etc.

I think it works similarly with religious beliefs

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
14. There's so many different types of believers.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:05 AM
Jul 2015

Even atheistic skeptics often seem to be believers in concepts that seems false to me, such as the belief countries and governments aren't just imaginary constructs or that human life has inherent value.

Because of this diversity of believers, I believe there are probably many different answers to your question.

The main criterion I usually use is how I believe the belief will affect the person who holds the belief and how will the belief affect me.

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